Anchors of Truth

The Afterlife: Death, Hell And Heaven

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Doug Batchelor

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Series Code: AOT

Program Code: AOT000040


00:27 This is what we call an "Anchors Away" program
00:31 where we are away from 3ABN.
00:34 We are out in the field, and this time we are at the
00:37 Central Seventh-day Adventist Church in Sacramento,
00:40 California. This is the church that
00:43 Pastor Doug Batchelor is pastor, senior pastor, of.
00:48 And it's just been a tremendous week that we've been here
00:52 since Wednesday, and we've en- joyed every single minute of it.
00:56 You folks have really made us feel at home.
00:59 Want to thank you. Want to thank the production crew here...
01:03 volunteers in the church that really do a tremendous job.
01:08 And we just thank them for their cooperation as well.
01:12 We're looking forward to this afternoon's subject.
01:16 Pastor Doug Batchelor is going to be speaking again on
01:19 Truths That Divide.
01:22 You know, there are some things that actually do divide
01:26 rather than unite, and we are divided in Christianity
01:30 on a number of questions.
01:33 And this afternoon we're going to be looking at one more
01:38 of those questions.
01:40 Why don't we have a little prayer together right now?
01:43 Father in heaven,
01:44 we thank you for Jesus.
01:46 We thank you, Lord, that He was willing to come
01:51 and to live and to die
01:54 and to come forth from the tomb.
01:57 To go back to heaven to minister in the sanctuary.
02:02 And all of this to bring about life for each one of us.
02:07 We pray, Father, that You will help every single person
02:11 that's watching today to make sure that they've accepted Him
02:16 as their Savior
02:18 and to receive the gift of life eternal.
02:22 We thank you for hearing us in Jesus' name, Amen.
02:27 Well Pastor Doug, this is the fifth in this series,
02:32 and we have been just thrilled to be with you.
02:36 Tell me a little about what is the subject this afternoon.
02:40 Well we're going to be dealing with something that is a very
02:43 controversial subject: talking about the afterlife.
02:47 All right. In particular, death, the subject of hell,
02:52 and then we thought we'd end on a positive note
02:54 and talk about heaven. All right!
02:56 You're going to cover all of that in one... one lecture, huh?
03:01 Yeah. Well, not going to be covered thoroughly but
03:04 we're going to cover as much as we can.
03:05 You and Pastor Barney? Pastor Barney is our guest
03:09 tonight, yes. All right.
03:10 Well, I'm going to get out of your way so you have all
03:12 the time - thank you so much - that you can use.
03:15 All right... God bless you. God bless you.
03:17 Thank you sir. And again we want to thank 3ABN
03:19 for partnering with us in this program. Amen?
03:22 Amen. And I want to tell our friends at home if you are
03:24 grateful that we're able to put together programs like this
03:28 both 3ABN and Amazing Facts are entirely self-supporting
03:31 ministries. And if you'd like to make a donation to help them
03:34 keep providing Christian programming
03:37 you can go to the website that you'll see on your screen there.
03:39 It's very easy to remember.
03:41 Just like our names - 3ABN.org AmazingFacts. org -
03:47 and you can just follow the links there.
03:49 Again welcome to the Doctrines that Divide program.
03:54 And in this evening's presentation we're going to be
03:57 talking about a few doctrinal truths that are...
04:01 are a little controversial.
04:03 Now in this series we are talking about
04:08 some of the beliefs of Seventh- day Adventist Christians.
04:11 It says Christians, Adventist there.
04:13 And then it says Other Christians.
04:16 And again, there are a lot of other dear Christian people
04:20 Seventh-day Adventists believe in other churches.
04:23 We freely agree the majority of Christ's true followers
04:28 are in the fellowship of other churches.
04:30 The Seventh-day Adventist church does not view itself as
04:34 a denomination. We view ourselves as a movement
04:37 of prophecy into which people are called
04:41 from all different walks of life.
04:43 Indeed, the Seventh-day Adventist church was formed
04:46 as a coalescing of people from several denominations
04:50 that came together and said:
04:52 "let's return to Biblical truth. "
04:55 And so that's my appeal to you during this series.
04:59 I believe before Jesus comes back
05:01 He's going to have a people united in the Word.
05:04 His church is going to truly be of one accord.
05:08 And so we're talking about some of these distinctive
05:11 doctrinal differences.
05:12 And in some ways tonight's subject is going to be
05:16 more difficult for some people than others we've presented.
05:20 Some people shrug when you talk about the Seventh-day Adventist
05:24 view on the dietary things.
05:27 They say: "Well you know that's good for health.
05:28 There's a lot of science behind it. "
05:30 And when we talk about the sanctuary and the cleansing
05:34 they say: "Well you know, that's also very interesting. "
05:37 Sabbath? "Well, we all need a day of rest. "
05:40 But when you start talking about what happens when a person dies
05:45 people really get very animated about that.
05:49 And so we're going to be talking tonight about those subjects
05:52 of death, hell, and then we'll be talking a little bit
05:56 about heaven.
05:57 And so once again, if you haven't heard me explain this
06:00 before, I am wearing this special suit or this uniform
06:03 and the purpose of this is to help you visualize.
06:08 When I'm on this side, I'm representing Pastor Doug.
06:12 And when I'm on this side I'm representing a figment of my
06:16 imagination. We are calling him Pastor Barney.
06:19 And I guess that I should give you more of a silhouette here
06:22 'cause Pastor Barney's kind of in the white suit
06:24 and Pastor Doug is over here in the black suit.
06:27 I'm going to be arguing from this side what I believe
06:30 the Biblical positions are on these subjects
06:32 as a Seventh-day Adventist. I am biased.
06:35 And on this side I'll be sharing with you what I believed
06:38 back before I was a Seventh-day Adventist...
06:41 worshiping and preaching in churches in the other
06:45 evangelical churches.
06:46 And so with that maybe I should introduce the first point
06:52 in our study talking about the subject of death in particular.
06:57 Now if you go to a church cemetery...
07:00 I remember when I lived in Texas
07:03 and there's a lot of churches there that are Church of Christ,
07:08 Baptist, Methodist churches.
07:11 Every little town used to have a church 'cause they were all
07:14 little farming communities.
07:16 Unfortunately in the last 60-70 years
07:19 people have migrated to the cities.
07:21 A lot of these little churches have closed.
07:23 And sometimes on a Sabbath afternoon I'd go for a walk
07:27 with the family in some of these church cemeteries
07:29 and just read the tombstones.
07:31 And it was interesting that within the same Methodist
07:37 or Baptist or Church of Christ cemetery
07:39 you would immediately detect there was confusion on the
07:42 subject of death.
07:44 You'd see one tombstone and it would say for example:
07:48 "Our beloved father, now resting in Jesus,
07:54 waiting for the resurrection trump"
07:57 or something like that.
07:58 Then you'd go look at another tombstone. It would say:
08:02 "Our dear mother, now walking on the golden streets
08:06 in glory. "
08:08 And you're wondering... where are they?
08:10 They weren't too sure.
08:13 A lot of them said RIP. What does that stand for?
08:16 Rest in peace.
08:18 And, you know, so sometimes you think that means
08:20 they're resting in peace.
08:22 Others would have beautiful poems about
08:25 "now in the arms of Jesus. "
08:27 And there's just a lot of confusion about this subject
08:30 of death. And so with that quick introduction
08:34 we're going to get into our first question for tonight's
08:37 presentation.
08:38 Number one:
08:44 All right, we're going to let Pastor Doug start out
08:46 with some of these scriptures.
08:48 Now this represents pretty much the Adventist position.
08:51 Ecclesiastes 9 verses 5 and 6:
09:10 When they're dead they're not envying; they're not loving;
09:13 they're not hating... they're asleep.
09:16 Ecclesiastes 9 verse 10... you just jump down to the 10th verse
09:19 same chapter: "Whatever your hand finds to do
09:22 do it with your might. For there is no work or device
09:27 or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you're going. "
09:30 People in the grave have no knowledge. They have no wisdom.
09:34 And you would think the first thing a person would do
09:37 if you die and you go immediately to be with Jesus
09:41 I'd be praising the Lord, wouldn't you?
09:43 But here's what King David said in Psalm 115:
09:47 "The dead do not praise the Lord
09:50 nor any who go down into silence. "
09:52 Pastor Doug, I've just got to interrupt you right there.
09:55 You're reading from the Old Testament.
09:59 It wasn't until the resurrection of Jesus that He liberated
10:02 all the souls that were in their graves.
10:04 After the resurrection of Jesus they went on to glory
10:08 to be with Christ.
10:09 But Pastor Barney, I know I just read from King David,
10:13 but when you go to Acts chapter 2
10:15 and Peter is preaching his sermon on Pentecost
10:17 he said: "My brethren, let me freely speak about
10:21 the patriarch David that he is both dead and buried... "
10:25 A few verses later... "and not ascended to heaven. "
10:29 So even after the resurrection, Pentecost happens
10:33 50 days after the Passover
10:36 and David still hasn't made it to heaven yet.
10:39 Peter said that he's "dead and buried and not ascended
10:42 into heaven. " But I still have a verse or two to read on that.
10:46 John 11 verse 11:
10:57 And so in the Bible it speaks of death as a sleep.
11:01 This is a dreamless sleep and it's unconscious.
11:04 Again, you can read Psalm 146.
11:08 Says: "Put not your trust in princes or in the son of man
11:11 in whom there is no help. In the day that he dies
11:13 his breath goes forth and his thoughts perish. "
11:17 So people who are dead are not plotting vengeance on you.
11:21 They're not thinking anything... they're dead.
11:23 What do you think, Pastor Barney?
11:25 Well I do have some thoughts. I've got some scriptures too.
11:28 II Corinthians 5:8.
11:38 As a matter of fact, in that same chapter several times
11:41 it talks about being absent from the body
11:43 and being present with the Lord.
11:48 I have a thought on that
11:49 before you go to your next verse.
11:51 Probably ought to explain that.
11:53 I agree with you that to be absent from this life
11:57 your next conscious thought is the presence of the Lord.
12:01 See because we believe that if you're a Christian
12:04 and you die, the next thing that you think of
12:07 is the resurrection. You have no knowledge at all,
12:10 not even like a restless sleep.
12:12 It's like a person who has been dead for 500 years
12:17 it's not going to seem like 500 years for them.
12:19 Or if you go to sleep after a hard day's work
12:21 and then the alarm clock goes off seven hours later
12:24 but how long does it feel to you?
12:27 I heard one time about a man during World War I
12:30 who was on the battlefield. He was directing artillery
12:33 and in the midst of a very hot battle
12:37 he was ready to give the order to fire.
12:40 He said: "Ready, Aim... " And then a mortar shell
12:43 exploded very close to him.
12:45 Well, he was taken to the local field hospital.
12:49 They realized that he had a piece of shrapnel in his head
12:52 and it was very serious.
12:53 They waited to operate until they could get him to France.
12:56 They took him to France, and in a hospital there in Paris
12:59 they performed the surgery.
13:01 And when they removed the shrapnel - he was unconscious
13:04 so they didn't use any anesthetic -
13:05 when they removed the shrapnel from his brain
13:08 he jumped and said: "Fire! "
13:12 It had basically just stopped the tape for him.
13:15 I don't know how that worked,
13:17 but his next conscious thought was - even though it was a few
13:20 days after accident - he just picked up where he left off.
13:24 And so we believe to be absent from the body
13:27 the next conscious thought for the believer is the presence
13:30 of the Lord. And keep in mind:
13:32 God lives in all dimensions of time.
13:36 In other words, God is from everlasting to everlasting.
13:40 And that means that God can take a prophet a million years
13:44 backwards in time and show him a war in heaven.
13:47 Not that it was a million years ago.
13:49 God can take a prophet a thousand years ahead
13:52 in the future and give him a three-dimensional picture
13:55 of that. And so, you know, God doesn't live in the same
14:00 dimension of time. So if you're a believer
14:02 and you die - or an unbeliever - your next conscious thought
14:05 is the resurrection of the just or the unjust.
14:09 Carry on.
14:10 Well thank you very much for that explanation.
14:13 I do have another verse or two here.
14:18 It says in Matthew 22 verse 32
14:32 And so these people aren't dead, they're living.
14:35 They're with Jesus.
14:38 Well, I agree that they are living.
14:40 When a person is asleep are they dead or alive?
14:44 Well yeah, they're... technically they're alive.
14:47 Well I agree. I think when a person dies in the Lord
14:51 they're just sleeping. Jesus said: "Our friend Lazarus
14:53 is asleep. " And just think about that for a second,
14:56 friends. And this by the way is in John chapter 11...
14:59 the whole story there.
15:00 How long had Lazarus been dead?
15:04 Four days
15:06 by the time that Jesus came to resurrect him.
15:08 There are about 12 resurrections in the Bible.
15:13 And I don't know what you think it would have been like
15:16 back then, but I know today
15:18 that if someone had been dead for four days
15:20 and they were raised, the next thing that would happen
15:24 is every media agency in the world would show up.
15:27 They would have a whole bouquet of microphones
15:30 in front of them, and the first question they would ask is:
15:33 "What was it like when you were dead? "
15:36 The amazing thing about all the resurrections that are
15:39 performed in the Bible there is not one person
15:42 who comments on what they saw or experienced
15:45 during their death... which leads me to believe
15:47 maybe they didn't experience anything.
15:50 And if Lazarus was dead for four days...
15:54 think about that.
15:56 Let's suppose for a moment Lazarus was lost
15:58 and when he died his next conscious thought was
16:01 he was in Hades.
16:02 And then Jesus raised him.
16:04 You would think that Lazarus would say something like:
16:07 "Thank you, Lord. It was terribly uncomfortable.
16:09 The pain was excruciating. I'm so glad to be back. "
16:12 No comment. If Lazarus - you'd think after
16:16 four days that the shuttle would finally arrive in heaven -
16:18 if Lazarus had been in heaven
16:20 and here he is with his glorified body and he's
16:23 talking to the angels and he's walking and dancing
16:26 and flying around the golden city and the golden streets
16:29 and reaching out for the Tree of Life... and all of a sudden
16:33 he finds himself back in a tomb wrapped up in grave clothes.
16:36 Would you say: "Thank you, Jesus" for that?
16:40 No. Lazarus makes absolutely no comment about the
16:44 resurrection because he was asleep.
16:47 And that's not my opinion or my interpretation.
16:50 Jesus said: "Our friend Lazarus is asleep. "
16:54 And when they said: "Oh, if he's sick and he's asleep
16:56 that's good. He'll start feeling better. "
16:57 Jesus said: "No, he's dead. "
17:00 So sleep is a word that God uses to describe death.
17:04 This is not something Seventh-day Adventists
17:05 have manufactured.
17:07 All right. Well, let's go back to another point here
17:11 on the same subject.
17:21 Pastor Barney, would you like to start?
17:23 Thank you Pastor Doug.
17:24 I'm glad we can be cordial with each other.
17:26 Luke 23 verse 43
17:35 That means Jesus promised that thief right that day
17:39 that they would be together in paradise.
17:42 That doesn't mean that he had to wait for the resurrection
17:45 or he had to wait for the judgment day.
17:46 Jesus said: "Today... today, you'll be with Me
17:50 in paradise. " What do you think of that?
17:53 Well that is a good point.
17:55 Now this is sometimes difficult to explain to people
17:58 because you have to tell them there is an error
18:02 in the translation. Not in the Bible.
18:05 In the original Bible there is no punctuation.
18:09 Bible translators... and by the way,
18:12 anyone can translate a Bible...
18:13 You don't have to be inspired to translate a Bible.
18:16 You're taking it from one language and putting it
18:18 in another language.
18:19 And some translations are more inspired than others
18:22 in my opinion.
18:24 But they had to decide "where do we put the comma? "
18:27 And in the King James and most English translations
18:30 the way they did it - and it was done back because they were
18:34 supporting the popular belief you die and go right to heaven
18:36 or hell - they wrote it: "Verily I say to you, "
18:40 today you'll be with Me in paradise. "
18:44 But one reason that's a big problem is
18:47 if you read in John chapter 20 verse 17
18:50 it's not possible for the thief to be with Jesus in paradise
18:54 that same day 'cause Jesus didn't make it to paradise
18:57 that day. When Mary went to grab Him by the feet
19:00 and to worship Him He said:
19:02 "Do not detain Me... do not touch Me... "
19:08 Now when was it that Mary showed up at the tomb
19:11 and He told her that? That would be Sunday morning.
19:15 So if Jesus hadn't made it to heaven yet Sunday morning,
19:19 then how could He have been with the thief in paradise
19:23 Sunday morning?
19:26 Pardon... I meant the same day.
19:28 I meant the same day.
19:32 Well that's because there's another place
19:36 called paradise that is not heaven
19:39 but he was with Jesus wherever that place is.
19:42 Ah, Revelation says that
19:44 His Father is in heaven and that is paradise.
19:48 So He had not yet ascended to His Father
19:50 and the Father's in paradise,
19:51 Christ had not yet been to heaven or paradise.
19:54 Jesus was in the tomb. Penalty for sin is death.
19:57 Penalty for sin is not some kind of trans-spiritual migration.
20:01 The thief could not be with Him that day.
20:03 And there's another reason to doubt the thief could be
20:05 with Him that day: it's simply because
20:08 we're not even sure the thief died that day.
20:11 He was still alive after Jesus died, and they tried
20:14 to accelerate their death by breaking their legs
20:16 but the Bible doesn't record how long that took.
20:19 They were hoping that they'd die before the Sabbath.
20:21 You remember? And so it doesn't say.
20:24 We don't even know when he died.
20:25 But the way to really look at that...
20:29 just take the comma. Put it where it belongs.
20:32 "Verily I say to you today, "
20:34 The emphasis Jesus is making is
20:37 "I'm telling you today. You called me a Lord,
20:41 you called me a King... " And by the way,
20:43 you notice Pastor Barney, the thief said to Jesus:
20:47 "When You come into Your kingdom remember me. "
20:50 Jesus was promising him that day
20:52 "I will remember you when I come into My kingdom. "
20:55 He didn't go to His kingdom that day.
20:56 The Bible says that He receives His kingdom
20:59 when He comes back for us.
21:01 So He was emphasizing: "Today I don't look like a king. "
21:07 He was hanging on a cross.
21:08 "Today I don't look like a Lord. "
21:10 "Today I don't look like I can save anybody,
21:13 but I'll make it a promise to you today because you
21:15 reached out to Me in faith
21:18 that you will be with Me in paradise.
21:20 I'm promising you today you will be with Me in paradise. "
21:24 That's what Jesus was saying.
21:26 The original Greek supports that.
21:28 There was no punctuation when Luke wrote that.
21:31 It's only in the gospel of Luke. Do not build a whole doctrine
21:35 on somebody's placing a comma who is not necessarily
21:38 inspired or holy.
21:40 And I think that's actually a beautiful explanation
21:44 for that passage.
21:46 All right. Let's move along here.
21:50 Number three:
21:56 Pastor Barney?
21:57 Ecclesiastes 12 verse 7.
22:00 Good enough for me.
22:08 So as soon as a person dies the spirit goes to be with God.
22:13 Well, we need to talk about what these words mean.
22:16 First of all, to understand what that spirit is
22:20 and where it goes we need to know something about
22:22 how God makes men in the beginning.
22:23 In Genesis chapter 2 verse 7
22:26 when God first created man it says:
22:39 So the combination of that breath of life
22:42 and the body that the Lord had just framed of Adam
22:46 then equaled a living soul.
22:50 The word for spirit there is the same word as breath.
22:54 It's the Hebrew word ruach and it means
22:57 breath... the breath of life. It's inanimate; it doesn't have
23:00 personality. It is the power, the force, that God breathes
23:03 into all of His creatures.
23:05 And so the verse that you just read in Ecclesiastes
23:08 is saying that when somebody dies... You notice
23:11 Ecclesiastes doesn't say good or bad?
23:15 That the body decomposes and turns back into the dust
23:19 of the earth. God said to Adam: "Dust you are and to dust
23:22 you're going to return. "
23:23 The spirit or the breath of life - the power of life,
23:26 the essence of life - returns to God who gave it.
23:30 If we should unplug the power in this building
23:33 and all the lights go out - don't try that right now -
23:37 you'd say: "Where'd the light go? "
23:39 Well, the light stops being light for us when
23:42 you disconnect the carbon filaments with the electricity.
23:46 It's the two together that produce the light.
23:49 If I should take some sticks of wood and some nails
23:53 and put them together and make a chair and I'd say:
23:56 "Here, the combination of those nails and those sticks
23:58 we've made a chair. "
24:00 But now I separate the nails... Don't try and sit on the chair!
24:04 I separate the nails from the wood and I've got a pile
24:07 of sticks here and a pile of nails here
24:09 and I ask you: "Where is the chair? "
24:11 Well it stopped being a chair when you separate the two.
24:15 The breath of life and the elements of earth
24:19 God animates it into a living soul.
24:22 When a man, good or bad... when an animal, good or bad...
24:26 dies, the elements of earth decompose back into the dust.
24:30 The power of life - the breath of life - returns to God
24:33 who gave it. Let me give you another verse on that.
24:36 Job 27 verse 3.
24:39 "All the while my breath is in me
24:43 and the spirit of God is in my nostrils. "
24:47 Now you've heard people say
24:49 "He's got the spirit in his mind. "
24:52 "He's got the spirit in his heart. "
24:53 But if I were to ask you "would you like to be
24:56 spirit nose filled? "
25:00 Who ever thinks of your spirit of God?
25:03 "Lord, please fill our noses. "
25:04 Why does it say "The spirit of God was in my nostrils? "
25:10 The word "spirit of God" there means the breath of life
25:13 was in my nostrils. " That is the exact word
25:16 that's being used there in Ecclesiastes 12 verse 7.
25:20 All right. So... before I go to the next point...
25:26 Seventh-day Adventists believe that when a person dies
25:30 they sleep in the grave
25:33 until the judgment and the resurrection.
25:36 Jesus said rewards are not given
25:39 until He comes. Matthew 25: "When the Son of Man
25:43 comes in the glory of the Father with all His angels
25:46 He will gather all nations before Him and separate them
25:49 as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. "
25:52 When He comes, He then distributes rewards.
25:55 He doesn't distribute rewards at death
25:58 before the resurrection and before the judgment.
26:01 This is actually not a new belief.
26:03 Seventh-day Adventists don't own it.
26:05 It's a very old belief that has been influenced lately
26:08 in the last couple hundred years by traditions.
26:11 All right. Number four:
26:18 Pastor Barney?
26:21 Matthew chapter 10 verse 28. Jesus said:
26:33 The soul cannot be killed.
26:35 You've got immortal souls that go on forever and ever.
26:40 Well I'm going to stop Pastor Barney.
26:42 Sometimes I get so caught up in what he's saying
26:43 I think I don't want to convince anybody so I'd better get back
26:45 over here. Just trying to give, you know, the other view.
26:50 You've got to read the rest of the verse, pastor.
26:52 Jesus said: "Don't fear those who kill the body
26:55 but they cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him" -
26:59 Matthew 10:28... second half of that verse...
27:10 So that's I think pretty clear.
27:13 As a matter of fact, you only find the word mortal
27:16 or immortality twice in the Bible.
27:19 Both times it's talking about God and talking about
27:22 immortality. It's only listed twice in the Bible
27:26 and you're going to find where it says Matthew...
27:28 I'm sorry. In I Timothy 6 verses 15 and 16.
27:33 I Timothy 6:15-16:
27:51 God alone has immortality.
27:53 And let me give you one more. This is a short one:
27:55 Ezekiel 18:20:
27:57 The idea that you've got an immortal soul that can't die...
28:01 If this isn't as clear as any dictionary definition
28:03 then I don't know what is:
28:05 The Bible says... the Lord says
28:07 "the soul that sins will die. "
28:11 And that takes us right back to what Jesus said
28:13 in John 3:16.
28:15 "God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son
28:19 that whosoever believes in Him
28:21 should not... " you've got two choices...
28:23 "perish but have everlasting life. "
28:27 We've only got two choices: perish... everlasting life.
28:31 As a matter of fact, the first thing that the...
28:33 the first lie that was ever told in the universe
28:35 was the devil when he told Eve
28:38 "God said you disobey, you eat the forbidden fruit
28:40 you'll die. " What did the devil say?
28:42 "You won't really die. "
28:45 And the sad thing is that some churches have taken up
28:48 the refrain of the devil telling people that you are
28:51 immortal. You're going to live forever and ever in heaven
28:53 or you're going to live forever and ever in hell.
28:55 I do believe in everlasting separation from God.
28:59 But everlasting punishment...
29:01 that's another subject we're about to get to.
29:03 You know, there's so much more I'd like to say on this
29:05 and I know I don't have time.
29:07 So what we're doing is we're going to put a website up.
29:09 It's very simple: www. deathtruth. com
29:14 www. deathtruth. com
29:15 Even if you type in truth about death you'll find the same
29:18 website. A lot of people asking questions about that...
29:21 especially just before Halloween.
29:23 www. deathtruth. com, and you'll find more information there.
29:28 All right. Well then, let's talk about the subject of hell.
29:33 Question number five:
29:37 Do lost souls burn forever?
29:41 All right, Pastor Barney.
29:43 To me these scriptures are really powerful, Pastor Doug.
29:47 Matthew 18. I'm going to read two that are similar.
29:50 I'll be reading Matthew 18 and Mark 9.
29:52 Matthew 18:8: "If your hand or foot causes you to sin... "
30:09 Mark 9:43-44:
30:28 Tell you what, I'll let you address that before I go
30:30 to my next point.
30:32 OK. Well, I believe that it is true that the fire
30:38 there in hell cannot be quenched.
30:40 The word quench is a verb that means to extinguish.
30:43 By the way, there's a myth out there
30:45 that Seventh-day Adventists do not believe in hell fire.
30:48 I've heard people say that; I've heard preachers say it.
30:50 That is categorically not true.
30:52 We do believe in hell fire.
30:55 We do believe there's a lake of fire.
30:57 We do believe that the wicked are all rewarded according to
31:00 what they deserve. We believe what it says there in Malachi
31:04 chapter 4: "Behold the day comes that will burn as an oven
31:08 and all the proud and all that do wickedly shall be stubble.
31:12 The day that comes shall burn them up. "
31:14 But then you've got to keep reading.
31:16 "It will leave them neither root nor branch. "
31:20 Says the wicked will be ashes under the soles of the feet
31:24 of the righteous. Burn up root, burn up branch...
31:28 there's nothing left. When hell fire is burning
31:31 nobody is quenching it. There are no firemen in hell
31:35 trying to spray things off.
31:37 That means they burn until they consume.
31:39 And this is what Jesus said.
31:41 Says in Revelation: "Fire comes down from God out of heaven" -
31:44 Revelation chapter 20- "and consumes them. "
31:48 That means they're devoured... there's nothing left.
31:50 Pastor Doug, you say that but I'd like to have some Biblical
31:52 support for that passage.
31:54 All right. Jeremiah chapter 17 verse 27.
31:57 It says here Jerusalem would be destroyed
32:01 with unquenchable fire. You can just read about that,
32:04 the whole prophecy there. Says the gates would be burned
32:07 with unquenchable fire.
32:09 If you know the rest of your Bible history...
32:11 I can't go to all the passages.
32:12 The Babylonians came. They conquered the land of Judea.
32:17 They burned Jerusalem.
32:19 They burned the gates.
32:21 Nobody was there putting it out
32:24 but they're not still burning today, are they?
32:27 And then you can read in the book of Jude.
32:30 You want to find out what that eternal fire is that Jesus
32:32 was talking about: Jude verse 7.
32:36 Can't tell you what chapter 'cause there's only one chapter
32:38 so all Jude has is verses.
32:40 Jude verse 7:
32:41 "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them
32:45 in similar manner have given themselves over to sexual
32:49 immorality and gone after strange flesh
32:51 they are set forth as an example
32:55 suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. "
33:00 Now that eternal fire... What it means is the result
33:03 of that fire is eternal.
33:04 It's amazing. Sodom and Gomorrah lived
33:07 oh, 1800 years, 2000 years before Christ
33:11 is when those cities were flourishing.
33:13 And when that fire rained down from God out of heaven
33:16 and burned them up they were judged.
33:18 And to this very day you can go to where that region is.
33:21 It is the lowest point on earth:
33:23 1,300 ft. below sea level.
33:24 It is out under the Dead Sea. It is bad land.
33:28 You can't grow anything there.
33:30 It is under just a curse.
33:32 Those cities were burned with eternal fire
33:35 and the Bible says that they are set forth as an example
33:38 of what the wicked can expect. Are they still burning today?
33:42 Why does it call it eternal or everlasting fire?
33:46 If, heaven forbid, my little pulpit here which is
33:50 made out of some kind of wood product -
33:52 should suddenly ignite into flames
33:55 and I stood back and we all stood back to watch,
33:58 and it burned. I've never seen a pulpit quite like that before
34:02 but I like it.
34:04 But if it burned up and we didn't extinguish it
34:08 that would mean it was unquenchable.
34:09 Suppose we tried and we couldn't... unquenchable
34:11 until it burns all up and there's nothing left.
34:15 How many of you remember that burning bush that Moses saw?
34:19 It burned and yet it was not consumed.
34:22 How many believe it's still burning out there today
34:24 somewhere?
34:27 But it was unquenchable at the time.
34:31 So this would be burned up... that pulpit, that particular
34:34 pulpit. It's been burned with eternal fire
34:36 'cause it will never appear again. It is gone forever.
34:40 It is unquenchable, eternal, everlasting destruction.
34:46 It's gone! That's what the Bible says is going to happen
34:49 to the wicked. They're burned up with everlasting fire.
34:51 All right. Well I know I've been monopolizing the time,
34:53 Pastor Barney. You were giving another verse here.
34:56 I have another one. Thank you very much.
34:58 Revelation 20 verse 10.
35:01 This is a tough one for you.
35:03 It says, speaking of the destruction of the devil:
35:06 "The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire
35:10 and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are
35:14 and they'll be tormented day and night
35:17 forever and ever. "
35:22 Well, it's comforting to know that it especially says that
35:25 about the devil. But in the Bible the word forever
35:28 that's used there in the Greek is the word eon.
35:31 Have you ever heard someone say "why I haven't seen them
35:34 in eons? " An eon is a long yet unspecified period of time.
35:39 The term forever is used 56 times in the Bible
35:45 where it also denotes a limited period.
35:48 Some examples would be
35:50 when Hannah brought young Samuel to the temple.
35:53 She delivered him to Eli and said: "I'm bringing him here
35:56 so he can serve in this temple before the Lord forever. "
36:00 Well he's not still serving there today, is he?
36:03 If you read in the book of Jonah
36:05 chapter 1 tells us that in verse 17 Jonah
36:09 was 3 day and 3 night in the belly of the great fish.
36:12 In Jonah's prayer - chapter 2 verse 6- he says
36:15 "the earth with her bars was about me forever. "
36:20 Now I suppose that felt like Hades to Jonah.
36:23 Can you imagine what that would have been like?
36:27 To me whenever I think about the story of Jonah
36:29 the more I try to imagine it to be in the
36:34 digestive system of this sea monster
36:37 where if Jonah's alive it stands to reason
36:42 that there could have been something else that was on the
36:44 menu that day before or after Jonah...
36:47 Or he might have had dessert after Jonah;
36:49 he might have had appetizers before...
36:51 And so there in that sea monster there could have been
36:54 stinging jellyfish. Flashing bioluminescence.
36:58 Octopus. Whales like to eat squid.
37:03 Can you imagine three days and three nights
37:06 in that darkness in the digestive system of a...
37:09 this sea monster? Would it feel like forever?
37:13 Let's suppose for a moment that the wicked...
37:16 One problem I've got with the idea that the wicked
37:20 burn forever and ever is
37:24 that would mean that some teenager
37:28 who reaches the age of accountability.
37:30 You pick that age... whatever that age is.
37:31 Say it's 15.
37:33 That teenager doesn't accept Jesus and they die lost.
37:37 According to Pastor Barney's belief,
37:39 a lot of evangelicals, as soon as he dies
37:43 he is going to go to a lake of fire.
37:46 And he is going to burn there and writhe
37:52 and shriek and scream in unimaginable torment
37:57 moment after agonizing moment endlessly,
38:02 hour after hour, day after day, week after week
38:07 screaming, burning, shrieking
38:11 year after year, millennium after millennium.
38:15 And after a million years have gone by
38:18 he's only just begun to burn.
38:21 And he burns as long as Adolph Hitler.
38:24 According to that belief that's exactly right.
38:29 But Jesus said every man is rewarded according to his works.
38:33 If everybody gets everlasting fire,
38:37 then how can everybody get the same fair reward?
38:42 Well there's some things, Pastor Doug, that we don't
38:45 understand. It's the mind of God,
38:46 and we need to trust the love of God.
38:48 We need to trust the judgment of God
38:51 and just don't question those things.
38:54 Well in my Bible He says: "Come now let us reason
38:57 together. " I think that the Lord wants us to understand
39:00 these things. And would you agree with me,
39:04 Pastor Barney, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world
39:07 and that He paid the penalty for sin?
39:11 Absolutely. We agree on that one 100%.
39:15 So what is the penalty for sin?
39:19 Oh you know that. You're just saying that for the benefit
39:21 of the people here. The penalty for sin is death.
39:26 But if the penalty for sin is death
39:28 and Jesus paid that penalty,
39:30 we've got a problem if the penalty for sin is everlasting
39:33 torment in the flames
39:35 'cause Jesus died, He suffered,
39:38 and He rose. He's not still burning today.
39:42 So how could he have paid the penalty for the whole human
39:44 race if the penalty is really eternal torment?
39:49 Have you got another question?
39:54 I think that's a good point.
39:57 So the word forever from the Bible itself is sometimes...
40:02 not always obviously. When God tells us we have everlasting
40:04 life and we'll live forever we read it in its context.
40:07 When it's talking about the punishment of the wicked
40:10 what kind of words are used?
40:12 It says consumed, perish, die.
40:16 Says burned up. Says never will they be any more.
40:20 Even concerning the devil it says: "I will bring forth
40:22 a fire from the midst of thee" - Ezekiel 28-
40:24 "and it will consume thee.
40:26 You will be a terror and never shall you be any more. "
40:29 If anybody deserves to burn forever,
40:32 it'd be the devil, right?
40:34 And he may burn for several days. I don't know.
40:36 Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein,
40:39 and there are going to be some other despots. They may
40:41 burn for a while. Can you imagine burning 24 hours?
40:46 A week? But no... And you know what?
40:50 I'm thankful to tell you today
40:52 that an ever-growing number of Christian theologians
40:55 are agreeing. Recently John Stock just passed away,
40:58 one of the greatest theologians of the last century...
41:00 he believed exactly what I'm telling you today
41:03 that yes, the wicked are punished.
41:05 There is a lake of fire. They do not burn
41:07 forever and ever... they are ultimately annihilated.
41:10 God says: "I make all things new. "
41:13 There is no more pain or suffering in the new earth.
41:16 All things are made new.
41:18 That doesn't mean He's immortalizing sinners.
41:23 All right. Number six:
41:34 Now let me read that for you.
41:36 If you turn in your Bibles to Luke chapter 16
41:40 beginning with verse 19:
41:42 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple
41:45 and fine linen who fared or feasted sumptuously every day.
41:50 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus
41:52 full of sores who laid at his gate desiring to be fed
41:55 with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table.
41:58 Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
42:01 So the beggar died and was carried by the angels... "
42:04 right the way, notice... "to Abraham's bosom.
42:07 The rich man also died and he was buried.
42:10 And being in torment in Hades
42:15 he lifted up his eyes and he saw Abraham afar off
42:19 and Lazarus in his bosom.
42:20 And he cried out and he said: 'father Abraham,
42:23 have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he might dip
42:26 the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue
42:28 for I am tormented in this flame. ' "
42:31 There you've got it. Lazarus, this wicked man,
42:33 selfish man, he is tormented in the flames
42:35 and he's conscious during that time.
42:39 "But Abraham said to him: 'son, remember that you in your
42:42 lifetime received your good things and likewise Lazarus
42:44 evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented.
42:51 Besides this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed
42:56 so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot
42:58 nor can those from there pass to us. '
43:01 Then he said: 'I beg you therefore father that you would
43:04 send them to my father's house for I have five brothers
43:07 that he might testify to them lest they also come to this
43:09 place of torment. ' Abraham said to him:
43:12 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. '
43:16 He said: 'No, father Abraham, but if one went to them
43:19 from the dead then they would repent. '
43:22 But he said to him: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,
43:26 neither will they be persuaded though one should rise
43:29 from the dead. ' "
43:30 Seems pretty clear to me, Pastor Doug.
43:31 It's telling us that immediately after death
43:34 people are either going to Abraham's bosom
43:36 or they're going to torment.
43:39 All right. Well I think the key word, Pastor Barney,
43:42 is the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus.
43:45 It's a parable.
43:47 If you take all the parables in the Bible literally,
43:50 then you'll believe that trees talk to each other as they do
43:53 in the book of Judges and you'll believe that people should be
43:55 sheared like sheep. Jesus used a lot of analogies
43:59 to teach a point. Now, you have to ask yourself...
44:02 once again, don't ever build a doctrine on one verse.
44:05 This is only found here in the gospel of Luke.
44:08 I believe it's inspired, but the message here
44:10 is in the last few words.
44:12 Jesus is using an incredible, incongruous
44:18 poles in this story. He's taking the hero of the Jewish faith
44:24 and he says that Lazarus, this poor man who dies,
44:28 he goes... And by the way, it's a Greek name...
44:30 it's the Greek derivative of Eleazar...
44:33 he goes and he is in Abraham's bosom.
44:37 So here you've got the Greek poor beggar
44:39 who looks like he's under the curse of God -
44:41 the only cleaning he gets is from the dogs -
44:43 but he ends up in the Jewish place of paradise.
44:47 And then you've got the rich man who you'd think would be
44:50 in Abraham's bosom... he goes to the Greek place
44:53 of torment. Every Jew knew Greek mythology.
44:57 They had been conquered by Alexander the Great
45:00 hundreds of years earlier. They all knew about Pluto.
45:03 the god of Hades, the dogs of hell, and the whole thing.
45:06 And it was Greek mythology.
45:08 It's like in the English language.
45:10 If I should tell you right now
45:11 "one day Alice was walking in Wonderland... "
45:14 One sentence. Does everyone know right away
45:17 that I'm using an illustration that you're not to take
45:20 literally everything I'm saying.
45:21 When Jesus incorporated these things,
45:24 He was teaching a parable.
45:25 The parable was that the Jew should not think
45:29 because they were Abraham's children
45:31 they were automatically saved.
45:33 That they might be shocked that others would be
45:35 in Abraham's bosom.
45:37 And that they shouldn't sit with the Gentiles starving
45:40 for the truth that they were feasting on -
45:43 only comfort they got was from the dogs... other Gentiles -
45:46 and here they were neglecting them and feasting on the truth
45:50 and thinking that we're the favored chosen people.
45:53 Churches sometimes do that too.
45:54 So the message of Jesus is: "If they don't believe Moses
45:58 and the prophets they won't be persuaded though one
46:00 should rise from the dead. " It's a parable.
46:02 Who believes that Abraham's bosom is big enough to take
46:06 all the resurrected?
46:08 I mean, just picture that for a moment.
46:12 Do you believe the people in heaven and hell will be able to
46:14 talk to each other?
46:16 Does anyone here want to be in heaven talking to people
46:20 in torment? Do we believe that one drop of water
46:24 would cool a person's tongue?
46:26 I mean it would sizzle and evaporate before you ever
46:28 got there. All these powerful metaphors.
46:31 To take this story literally I think is a dangerous
46:33 interpretation.
46:35 Well Pastor Doug, if it's a parable, why does He use
46:39 a real name there?
46:41 It's... all the other parables He just says this man
46:44 and that man were doing this but here He picks a person's name.
46:46 It's a real story.
46:48 Well that is a good point, Pastor Barney, but I think
46:50 there's a reason Jesus used the name Lazarus.
46:53 Did Jesus raise somebody from the dead named Lazarus?
46:57 Did the religious leaders choose to believe?
47:01 You said: "Oh father Abraham, if someone went to them
47:04 from the dead then they'll believe and repent. "
47:06 Jesus said: "If they believe not Moses and the prophets
47:10 then they won't be persuaded though one should rise
47:12 from the dead. " Jesus' greatest miracle was
47:15 raising Lazarus who had been dead for four days
47:17 and instead of believing they wanted to kill Lazarus. "
47:19 So He incorporated the name to add intensity
47:23 to this parable.
47:25 It is just that... a parable.
47:28 People do not die and go right to heaven and hell
47:31 before the resurrection.
47:33 What's the purpose of the resurrection?
47:35 The Bible says the Lord Himself will descend from heaven
47:38 and then the dead in Christ will rise.
47:40 There'd be no purpose for the resurrection.
47:42 By the way, I do have another website I'd like to mention.
47:48 Big subject. This is one of the most popular websites
47:50 you're going to find on the Internet on this subject.
47:52 It's got a lot of good theology.
47:53 Very simple: www. helltruth. com
48:00 So... next question.
48:07 Now we're going to talk about heaven.
48:14 Number seven:
48:19 Pastor Barney, take it away.
48:22 I Corinthians 15:50.
48:25 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood... "
48:32 The Bible says that we're spirits
48:34 and the Lord is saving our spirits.
48:36 And so it's the spirits that go to be with Jesus
48:39 at death. It's not flesh and blood.
48:42 We're going to be spiritual creatures.
48:43 Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God.
48:46 Well Pastor Barney, I also agree with that verse
48:49 but I think what Jesus is telling us is that our
48:51 new bodies - our glorified bodies - will be both
48:54 tangible and spiritual.
48:57 When Adam and Eve sinned and their garments of light
48:59 went out, they lost the spiritual dimension of their
49:02 nature. Right now there are angels in this room.
49:05 Jesus said: "I am with you always. "
49:07 There's a whole spiritual realm we cannot see in these
49:11 heavenly places. I think with the new glorified bodies
49:14 we will be able to see all that again.
49:16 Now let me give you some verses here in the Bible
49:18 that I think help support that.
49:20 Romans chapter 8 verses 8-9.
49:33 So here when Paul's talking about being in the flesh
49:36 or being in the spirit, he's not talking about being in heaven.
49:39 He's talking about those that are in the Lord.
49:41 Our flesh and blood - these bodies that we have now -
49:45 are carnal, mortal, diseased bodies.
49:49 They cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
49:51 But we're going to have real bodies in heaven.
49:54 It says here... couple more scriptures.
49:58 Luke 24 verse 39.
50:00 Jesus when He arose from the dead: He had a real body.
50:17 Now granted that He didn't say "flesh and blood... "
50:19 He said "flesh and bones. "
50:20 But I think it qualifies that Jesus was emphasizing
50:23 "I am real. " And then when they touched Him
50:26 and they still looked like they were amazed
50:28 He said: "I'm hungry; do you have anything I can eat? "
50:31 And several times after the resurrection when
50:33 He appeared to the disciples He ate in front of them
50:36 to accentuate He was real.
50:39 Again. Philippians 3:21. It says:
50:49 What kind of bodies will we have?
50:52 The same kind of body that Jesus had.
50:54 It will be a glorified spiritual body.
50:56 When God made Adam and Eve they were doing real things.
51:00 In the kingdom we're going to plant vineyards and eat
51:02 the fruit of them; we're going to build houses
51:04 and inhabit them. It tells us that we're going to
51:07 enjoy the works of our hands.
51:09 We'll be real people doing real things
51:11 and we're not going to be floating around on clouds.
51:16 All right. Number eight on heaven:
51:22 Tell you what, Pastor Barney, I'm going to let you answer
51:26 that one. Well thank you, Pastor Doug.
51:30 I Corinthians 13:12.
51:33 Of course we'll recognize each other in heaven.
51:36 Our powers of discernment are not going to be less
51:40 they're going to be more!
51:51 What do you think of that?
51:55 We agree!
51:59 I think Pastor Barney and Pastor Doug ought to
52:02 shake hands, don't you?
52:06 OK. Let's go on to the next one.
52:07 I just wanted them to be friends before it was all over.
52:10 I have to live with myself after this program.
52:16 Question number nine:
52:25 Revelation 21 verse 4:
52:41 You know, there may be some tears and some sadness
52:45 when Jesus first comes and we meet Him in heaven.
52:49 That's part of the purpose of the 1,000 years:
52:52 to answer questions. But during that time
52:55 if we see someone we love or someone we cared about
52:58 is not there, we may have feelings.
53:01 Do angels have feelings?
53:03 Do angels rejoice and sing when someone is saved?
53:07 Do angels cry or are they grieved when someone dies
53:11 unprepared? And so there will be some...
53:14 God does not erase all sense of emotion from us in heaven.
53:19 Does the Lord and the Holy Spirit have feelings
53:22 and sometimes does the Holy Spirit grieve?
53:24 So you can be sure that in heaven they're looking on
53:27 with great intensity here.
53:28 But don't worry about going through eternity
53:30 being unhappy because you say "I could never be happy
53:34 in heaven without this person or that person. "
53:37 And you might wonder how you could ever be comforted.
53:40 But it won't be a person comforting you.
53:42 It says God Himself will wipe away their tears.
53:46 I believe the Lord can do that.
53:48 So everybody can have that peace and that happiness in heaven.
53:53 Number ten:
54:00 Pastor Barney, I think that we could probably agree
54:02 on this one. Do you want to go ahead?
54:04 Thank you, Pastor Doug.
54:07 By the way, um, I just want to confess -
54:12 I'm not sure where to stand and tell you this... -
54:18 I have listened to a lot of preachers in other
54:21 evangelical mainline churches. I know they know the Lord.
54:24 I have been moved and inspired by things they've said
54:26 and some of their insights into the scriptures.
54:28 As long as it doesn't contradict the Bible, I think there's a lot
54:31 of truth. And I'll tell you another thing:
54:34 there are a lot of those ministers out there
54:38 I have heard them quote illustrations that I have given
54:41 on television on their radio and television programs
54:44 that I made up.
54:46 Not the ones that I borrowed from other preachers.
54:49 Happened this week... they're listening.
54:53 Amen! And so that's why we do these programs:
54:56 we need to study together. OK. What encouragement,
54:58 Pastor Barney, does the Bible offer
55:01 that I can make it to heaven with all the struggles
55:04 of this life? Romans 8 verse 18.
55:14 And again, I Corinthians 2:9:
55:31 You know, I've got some good news for you, friends.
55:35 When you get to the end of the Bible and you look at
55:37 the dimensions of the New Jerusalem
55:39 it's 375 miles on each side.
55:43 1,500 miles around...
55:45 12,000 furlongs in Biblical measurements.
55:48 Someone calculated that means
55:50 that if every individual in the world
55:53 gets 100 square feet... that'd be a little tight...
55:55 but just using that. If everybody gets 100 sq. ft. -
56:00 that's more than some cities have -
56:02 there'd be room just in the city for 39 billion people.
56:07 That's a lot more than is in the world today
56:10 and that means there's room for you. Amen!
56:15 I believe that the Lord is desperate for His people
56:18 to get it together.
56:20 I think that He has called the Seventh-day Adventist movement
56:24 for such a time as this to invite people from all faiths
56:28 to return to the faith that was delivered to the saints:
56:32 the teaching of the Bible.
56:34 He doesn't want His church divided on doctrine,
56:36 and He doesn't want us to abandon truth and say
56:38 doctrine doesn't matter.
56:40 When they heard Jesus preach and teach it says
56:44 they were amazed at His doctrine.
56:47 It was His doctrine that turned the world upside down.
56:51 Don't every be apologizing for the doctrine, friends.
56:54 And sometimes the Word separates
56:57 and I know well enough that not everybody is going to
57:00 believe. But some are going to hear.
57:03 The Holy Spirit's going to speak to their hearts
57:05 and it's going to resonate with them as it did with me.
57:08 I once went to church with Pastor Barney
57:10 and then I studied and I heard these things
57:14 and it clicked and I said: "That's the truth! "
57:16 It rings true; there's Bible support.
57:19 And I'll tell you friends, this is why today I'm a
57:22 Seventh-day Adventist Christian.
57:24 I don't want to be embarrassed when some asks the reason
57:27 for the hope that is in me.
57:28 I want to be able to give an answer with meekness and fear
57:31 and base it on this book. Amen!
57:34 Bottom line is we all want to be one in Christ.
57:37 Jesus is the Word.
57:38 So that's my invitation to you, friends.
57:41 I'd like to close this series by praying for you.
57:44 Father in heaven,
57:46 bring Your people together.
57:47 Let there be a revival of the truth.
57:49 Help there to be one fold listening to the Shepherd's
57:53 voice. We pray in Christ's name, Amen. Amen.
57:57 God bless you.


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Revised 2014-12-17