Authentic

Controlling The Future

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

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Series Code: AU

Program Code: AU000090S


00:00 - How much would you estimate
00:02 that you and I actually owe to future generations?
00:05 Do you think it's possible that we're morally responsible
00:08 for building the world of tomorrow,
00:10 the one our descendants are going to have to live in?
00:13 And just how capable would we be of doing that,
00:16 especially when we can't seem to fix our own problems?
00:20 [upbeat music]
00:30 [upbeat music continues]
00:40 Just the other day I was flying home
00:41 from a speaking appointment
00:43 and I pulled out this book by William MacAskill,
00:45 a contemporary Scottish philosopher.
00:48 And I've got to admit,
00:50 he really gave me some stuff to think about.
00:52 Now, the name of the book is "What We Owe the Future".
00:55 And as you can probably guess, he's making the case
00:58 that you and I have a moral obligation
01:00 to future generations.
01:02 An obligation to leave the world better than we found it.
01:06 It's not just the nice thing to do,
01:08 he says it's the right thing, a moral responsibility.
01:12 And of course, at first blush,
01:14 nobody's gonna argue with that.
01:15 Most parents already instinctively
01:18 try to give their kids better opportunities.
01:21 They make sure they get a decent education
01:23 and grow up to be confident and independent adults.
01:27 Throughout the history of parenthood,
01:28 parents have, generally speaking,
01:30 put their own desires and their own wellbeing
01:33 on the back burner, if they think
01:36 it means their children will prosper.
01:38 I mean, over the years, how many times
01:40 haven't you been inspired by the story of a single mother
01:43 who worked two or three jobs and did without sleep
01:46 and skipped meals so that her children
01:49 would have the chance to rise above poverty?
01:52 But that's not really what this book is driving at,
01:54 at least not in the opening chapters.
01:57 The author is driving it much bigger things,
02:00 cleaning up the environment, changing the moral landscape,
02:03 and establishing a more just society.
02:06 And again, who's really gonna argue with that,
02:09 except that I can't help but notice
02:11 that historically speaking, our very best efforts
02:14 to deliberately engineer a better future
02:17 have almost always ended in moral disaster,
02:20 which makes me really suspicious
02:22 about people who claim they have a blueprint
02:25 to a better almost utopian tomorrow.
02:28 I mean, let's just think about our recent history.
02:31 The most carefully engineered societies
02:33 that emerged in the 20th century
02:36 are now remembered as some of the most brutal.
02:40 And of course, Mr. MacAskill isn't naive
02:42 and he isn't promising utopia.
02:44 I'm just telling you that I have some grave reservations
02:48 about our ability to engineer a so-called
02:51 more just society for ourselves,
02:55 let alone people who live way down in the future.
02:58 Because what often happens when we do that
03:01 is that people become less important than policies.
03:05 And we usually find ourselves willing to get rid of people
03:08 who stand in the way of ideological objectives.
03:12 I mean, the death toll for the communist experiment
03:14 of the 20th century exceeded 100 million people,
03:19 and it produced several butchers like Joseph Stalin,
03:22 who didn't mind starving millions of his own subjects,
03:25 if it meant accumulating more power.
03:28 And I find it fascinating that the Bible talks about
03:32 a fatal flaw in our human character.
03:34 A flaw that we find ourselves incapable of fixing.
03:38 It says we're inherently selfish,
03:41 which is hard to argue with,
03:42 because generally speaking, it seems like
03:45 when many of the people who cry for more justice,
03:48 actually achieve a modicum of political power,
03:51 they somehow change and become part of the problem.
03:56 And so, I find myself kind of torn
03:58 when I see a book like MacAskill's,
04:00 because well, of course, we have a moral obligation
04:02 to our fellow human beings.
04:04 And of course, if the kingdom of God doesn't come first,
04:08 we want to leave the planet better than we found it.
04:11 So, generally speaking, obviously I'm in agreement,
04:15 but at the same time, I'm offering a giant word of caution,
04:18 because how many times over the course of recorded history
04:22 have we ever actually fixed something?
04:25 For example, I've brought this up before,
04:27 but countless generations have boldly proclaimed
04:31 the end of human war,
04:32 most famously, toward the end of the 19th century
04:36 and into the 20th.
04:38 But then by 1914, we had our first world war
04:41 followed very quickly by the second one,
04:44 and we witnessed a level of carnage
04:46 the world had never seen before.
04:49 In fact, if I'm remembering this correctly,
04:52 more than 200 million people died
04:55 across all the wars of the 20th century.
04:59 And of course, one of the key problems
05:00 we had in the middle of the 20th century
05:03 was the fact that Hitler's idea of a better tomorrow
05:05 clashed with the rest of the worlds,
05:08 and so did Stalins.
05:10 So, if we're going to start planning for a better tomorrow,
05:13 I mean, really make an effort to engineer a better world,
05:17 who gets to cast that vision?
05:19 Who gets to be in charge of it?
05:21 The hard reality of living on this planet
05:24 is that we have a huge proportion of the human population
05:27 who simply don't agree on what that utopia should look like.
05:33 Of course, again, I'm now going places
05:36 that the author doesn't actually go.
05:38 And so, I don't want you to think
05:39 he's pushing for a completely re-engineered society.
05:42 I mean, honestly, I haven't even finished
05:44 reading the book yet,
05:45 and maybe he does do that, I don't know.
05:48 But based on what I've read so far, I kind of doubt it.
05:52 I'm just considering what historically happens
05:54 when we begin to think we can somehow just apply human logic
05:59 and reason our way out of our very worst character traits.
06:05 But of course, that doesn't mean
06:06 I'm saying we shouldn't try.
06:08 Of course we should try.
06:10 I just think that treating society as if it's
06:12 some kind of scientific lab experiment is dangerous,
06:16 because it has never succeeded.
06:18 Not even once, why?
06:21 It's because there are too many variables,
06:24 too much potential for unintended consequences.
06:26 And of course, there's also the nagging problem
06:29 of our essentially selfish nature.
06:33 I mean, let's think about this.
06:35 When most people have to make a choice
06:37 between what's good for everybody else
06:40 and what's good for them,
06:42 well, what does our natural instinct drive us to do?
06:47 I think you know the answer,
06:48 because the people who instinctively do
06:50 what's good for somebody else are so rare
06:54 they actually surprise us.
06:56 We make heroes out of these people,
06:57 we name streets after them, we raise statues to their honor.
07:02 That's how rare, genuinely altruistic people really are.
07:08 So, for just a few minutes,
07:10 let's consider the moral implications
07:12 of trying to frame a world
07:14 that somebody else is gonna have to live in.
07:16 Of course, to some extent, we do that already every day.
07:20 All of the big decisions we make on this planet
07:23 are likely gonna change the way
07:24 that future generations are going to have to live.
07:28 That much is obvious.
07:30 And I think because we're building the future anyway,
07:33 we should be thinking about
07:34 negative consequences to the best of our ability,
07:38 and we should do what we can to avoid those.
07:41 And of course, as we do that,
07:43 we're going to get a lot of things wrong,
07:45 because there's no way we can accurately
07:48 anticipate the world of the future
07:50 any more than a group of Greek philosophers
07:53 living 600 years before Christ
07:56 could ever anticipate this world.
07:58 Where for example, I can talk to people face-to-face
08:01 in real time, anywhere on the planet, anytime I want.
08:08 Under those circumstances, I wouldn't necessarily
08:10 wanna live by the rules set way back then.
08:14 But just because we can't really imagine the future,
08:17 does that mean we shouldn't try to improve it?
08:20 Again, of course not.
08:23 But it's that whole problem
08:24 with our imperfect fallen natures that makes me
08:27 suspicious of people who claim to have all the answers,
08:30 because, well, that's never been the case.
08:34 Yet, still there's something in our hearts
08:36 that makes us want to follow people
08:38 who promise to make utopia happen,
08:40 and almost every single time we get sharply disappointed.
08:45 I mean, if you wanna see it on a smaller scale,
08:47 watch the election cycle every time it rolls out
08:50 here in the United States of America.
08:53 During the primary season, all kinds of promises are made
08:56 and somebody's poll numbers rise
08:58 as voters choose to believe them
09:01 and they start to lean in that candidate's direction.
09:04 In spite of our past experience,
09:06 people continue to get their hopes up.
09:08 And then when the candidates we believed in
09:10 are actually elected about two years into their term,
09:14 we usually, not always,
09:16 but we usually send their party
09:18 a disciplinary message in the midterms.
09:20 The poll numbers start to drop,
09:22 because yet again, another political candidate
09:25 didn't fix our worst problems.
09:29 Now, expand that idea across the entire planet
09:32 and ask yourself,
09:34 who exactly is going to be in charge of building utopia?
09:39 You want me to do it?
09:40 Because I don't want you to do it.
09:43 And I'll be right back after this.
09:48 - [Promoter] Here at The Voice of Prophecy,
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10:18 - Okay, we're back.
10:19 So, let me raise some ethical questions
10:22 that popped into my mind when I started to think about
10:25 what kind of moral obligation we might have to the future.
10:29 The author of this book,
10:30 basically takes the position that
10:32 humanity as we recognize it now
10:35 emerged from the evolutionary process
10:37 about 300,000 years ago.
10:39 Then he suggests that the average lifespan
10:42 for a species of mammals is about a million years.
10:45 At which point he says,
10:47 "We turn into something else or we just go extinct."
10:50 Now, that's not the way that I look at things,
10:52 because it's not the biblical point of view.
10:55 But what he does with that idea
10:57 is propose that most of the human beings
10:59 who will ever live still don't exist.
11:02 Our biggest population he says, by a long shot,
11:05 will live in the very distant future.
11:08 And so because of that, we have a moral obligation
11:11 to those people because well, he thinks
11:14 they're going to outnumber us.
11:16 But where exactly does he get that idea?
11:19 Why does he assume that greater numbers of people
11:21 are worth more than fewer numbers of people?
11:24 Why would he assign moral worth to the size of a population?
11:28 I mean, I get it.
11:30 When you live in a Western democracy,
11:32 you're raised in the idea that the majority must rule.
11:35 And so, more people will always seem like
11:38 they carry more value than less people.
11:40 But why, and how are we supposed to know that?
11:44 Now, again, I don't believe this,
11:47 but suppose that we really did emerge
11:49 as a unique species 300,000 years ago,
11:51 just for the sake of argument.
11:54 How exactly did that happen?
11:55 Was it an accident?
11:57 Did incredibly vast amounts of time coupled with chance
12:00 somehow accidentally produce the human race,
12:03 self-conscious, self-aware, rational people?
12:07 And if we really got here by accident,
12:09 why is there any moral worth to preserving anything?
12:13 I mean, it's just an accident, right?
12:15 And at some point it's all going to disappear.
12:17 And then 100 million years after that, the theory says,
12:20 nobody's ever gonna know that we even existed.
12:24 So, who's to say that our presence in this galaxy
12:27 has any moral worth?
12:28 And why should we assume that the needs
12:30 of some future majority are more important than my needs?
12:34 Where does that idea come from?
12:36 I mean, you and I are going to be dead
12:37 when that distant future arrives.
12:39 So, why in the world should we care about it?
12:42 Now, don't get me wrong,
12:44 I'm not arguing that future people don't matter.
12:46 I'm just asking why.
12:48 Where exactly do these moral values,
12:51 these moral price tags, actually come from?
12:54 Somebody might argue that it's a matter of self-preservation
12:57 for the human race that we need to keep humanity going,
13:00 and that makes it a moral issue.
13:02 But why?
13:04 I mean, we all understand that we're going to die anyway.
13:06 And after the passage of this much human history,
13:09 we should understand that suffering
13:11 is probably gonna be a part of every generation anyway.
13:14 So, who's to say that the future happiness of people
13:18 we will never meet is more important than ours?
13:21 Why should I sacrifice for people who don't even exist yet?
13:26 And again, just in case somebody's tuning in right now,
13:28 let me emphasize, this isn't the way I actually think.
13:32 I come to the world from a Christian perspective,
13:34 which absolutely requires that we esteem
13:37 other people as more important than ourselves.
13:40 After all notice what it says in Philippians chapter two,
13:44 "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit,
13:47 but in humility count others
13:49 more significant than yourselves."
13:52 Biblical Christians believe in selflessness,
13:55 because that's the example of Christ
13:57 who sacrificed everything for our future happiness.
14:01 And the very reason that I'm free
14:02 to own a copy of the Bible at all,
14:05 is because so many Christians living in the past
14:07 were willing to make absolutely massive sacrifices
14:11 to make sure of it.
14:13 What we have from the biblical perspective
14:15 is the belief that there is such a thing
14:18 as an authentic human life.
14:19 A right way to live with authentic human values
14:23 provided by the Creator.
14:26 We may not do it perfectly, in fact, we seldom do,
14:29 but when it comes to considering others,
14:31 including people who might live way off in the future,
14:34 there's a solid reason for doing this.
14:36 We're living in harmony with a pattern that God established.
14:41 And by no means do I believe that you have to be a Christian
14:45 to be a decent or moral person.
14:47 And I say that because I've heard a lot of Christians
14:50 suggest that atheists do not have the capacity to be moral,
14:54 which is silly.
14:56 Most of the atheists I've met are good and decent people,
14:59 at least to the extent that anybody can be.
15:02 What I'm really questioning is where our values come from.
15:07 If our morality is just a matter of social convention,
15:10 if it's just an arbitrary social contract,
15:13 is that really a moral reason
15:15 to behave well and consider others?
15:18 And here's another question
15:19 for atheists and believers alike.
15:21 Is the biblical maxim,
15:22 "Whatever you wish that others would do to you,
15:25 do also to them."
15:27 Well, is that really enough to make your actions moral?
15:30 Because if you're treating others well
15:32 just because that's what you would like for yourself,
15:35 have you really overcome that basic instinct
15:38 that puts self first?
15:41 You know, in that same passage,
15:43 Jesus taught that we're supposed to treat others
15:45 as we would like to be treated,
15:46 because that's the essence of the law and the prophets.
15:51 When somebody asks Jesus,
15:52 "Which of the moral commandments was the greatest?"
15:55 Jesus answered by saying this,
15:57 and you'll find it in Matthew 22,
16:00 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart
16:03 and with all your soul and with all your mind.
16:06 This is the great and first commandment.
16:08 And a second is like it:
16:09 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
16:12 On these two commandments
16:13 depend all the Law and the Prophets."
16:17 In other words, the very essence of God's moral law
16:20 is love and selflessness,
16:22 and that's because God's moral law
16:24 is a transcript of who He is.
16:26 It's a picture of His character.
16:28 The Book of Genesis says that you and I were made,
16:31 at least originally, in the image of God.
16:34 As a perfect reflection of His loving character.
16:37 And then we twisted that terribly
16:39 putting our own wants ahead of absolutely everything else.
16:45 And that's the reason that utopian experiments always fail.
16:48 It's because we're tragically flawed.
16:51 And when those experiments fail,
16:52 we have no problem blaming the people who ruined it
16:56 While assuring ourselves that we
16:57 would never, ever cause those kinds of problems.
17:01 I mean, if I was in charge,
17:03 I could pretty much fix everything, right?
17:05 Except you and I both know that's not true.
17:09 Let's suppose for the sake of argument
17:11 that I really, really want to make the world a better place
17:14 1,000 years into the future.
17:16 How exactly am I supposed to guess
17:18 what's going to be beneficial 1,000 years from now?
17:22 And how am I supposed to guess what culture will look like
17:25 and what kinds of things people are going to value?
17:28 I mean, let's suppose that our ancestors
17:30 did the same thing 1,000 years ago.
17:32 They hatched a plan to improve our lives.
17:36 Would you really want a medieval doctor
17:38 planning your healthcare,
17:39 or a medieval anybody planning anything?
17:42 It's a ridiculous proposition.
17:45 And yet, because of the perpetual arrogance
17:47 of every generation, we like to think
17:49 that we're a lot smarter than the people who came before us.
17:54 But what if our choices actually end up promoting suffering
17:57 the way they almost always do?
18:00 Wouldn't our tinkering then become a moral transgression?
18:03 Again, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't try.
18:06 Please don't misunderstand.
18:08 But I am thinking we should be very careful
18:11 before we assume that we actually know what we're doing.
18:14 I mean, how many times
18:16 have our very best efforts resulted in disaster?
18:19 How many times haven't we pointed a finger at our ancestors
18:22 blaming them for the condition of our world?
18:26 I'll be right back.
18:28 [upbeat music]
18:31 - [Promoter] Dragons, beasts, cryptic statues.
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19:00 - Okay, here's what I find really interesting.
19:02 It's the fact that there's an entire book of the Bible
19:05 dedicated to these kinds of questions.
19:08 Of course, the whole Bible deals with these questions,
19:11 but there's one book in particular that makes a solid case
19:15 that all the human planning in the world
19:17 is never going to end with paradise.
19:20 And that's the book of Daniel.
19:22 Here's the basic premise.
19:23 A young Jewish noble named Daniel
19:25 is taken captive to Babylon along with everybody else.
19:29 God allowed the Babylonians to conquer the city of Jerusalem
19:32 and burn down the temple,
19:34 because His people had to abandon their mission
19:37 and tried very hard to become like their neighbors
19:41 to the point where they actually
19:42 adopted their religious beliefs.
19:45 So, at the end of the day, there was no point
19:47 to keeping the temple in Jerusalem,
19:49 because it didn't mean anything anymore.
19:53 What we get in the Book of Daniel
19:54 is an exploration of what it means
19:56 to live under the thumb of other nations
19:58 instead of the government of God.
20:01 In Daniel chapter two, we see the rise and fall
20:04 of successive world empires
20:06 depicted as a statue made of different metals.
20:09 And as history progresses,
20:11 the metals become more and more brittle
20:13 and less and less valuable.
20:15 Then in chapter seven, we see those same kingdoms
20:18 portrayed as animals rising from the sea
20:21 walking onto the shore.
20:23 The Jews believed that their nation was a protected island
20:26 in the midst of gentile nations,
20:28 a kind of oasis of covenant grace.
20:32 But in Daniel seven, the nation of Israel
20:34 is being dominated by one gentile nation after the other,
20:39 and that's why they're seen coming up on the shore.
20:41 And the thing that drives it all, nonstop warfare.
20:45 The Book of Daniels shows us an ocean of humanity
20:48 being whipped up by the wind.
20:50 And as the turmoil continues,
20:52 one human kingdom after another fights for power
20:55 and replaces the one that came before it.
20:58 It's really a very accurate description
21:00 of the world's history.
21:03 And you can be sure as each new empire
21:05 took its place on the world stage,
21:07 it was brimming with promise.
21:09 I mean, get out of our way Babylonians,
21:11 the Persians are here
21:12 and they're gonna show you how it's done.
21:15 Until of course, the Greeks appear on the horizon
21:17 and take their turn.
21:19 This progression of failed empires
21:21 continues until we get to the heavenly judgment
21:24 when everybody gets called on the carpet.
21:27 And that results in this scene found in Daniel 7:17.
21:32 It says, "I saw in the night visions
21:35 and behold, with the clouds of heaven
21:36 there came one like a son of man,
21:38 and he came to the Ancient of Days
21:40 and was presented before him.
21:42 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
21:45 that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
21:49 his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
21:52 which shall not pass away,
21:54 and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."
21:58 You know what it's telling us?
22:01 You and I are not gonna fix this place.
22:03 It's not gonna happen.
22:04 And again, that doesn't mean
22:06 we don't have a moral obligation to help people,
22:08 because we do.
22:10 In fact, every Christian should take very careful note
22:13 of Jesus' words over in Matthew chapter 25,
22:16 where he says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
22:20 and all the angels with him,
22:22 then he will sit on his glorious throne.
22:24 Before him will be gathered all the nations,
22:27 and he will separate people one from another
22:29 as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
22:32 And he will place the sheep on his right,
22:34 but the goats on the left.
22:36 Then the king will say to those on his right,
22:39 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father,
22:41 inherit the kingdom prepared for you
22:44 from the foundation of the world.
22:46 For I was hungry and you gave me food,
22:48 I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
22:50 I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
22:53 I was naked and you clothed me,
22:54 I was sick and you visited me,
22:56 I was in prison and you came to me."
23:00 So yeah, we do have a duty to help our fellow human beings.
23:04 The very character of God demands that.
23:08 You can trust your instinct to help people.
23:11 But when it comes to manmade utopian experiments,
23:14 well, I think the Book of Daniel
23:15 has proven to be absolutely right.
23:18 Not one of those experiments so far
23:20 has done anything to make us happier,
23:23 because not one of them can fix our fundamental flaw.
23:27 We're sinners trapped by a selfish perspective
23:30 that is never going to change through anything we do.
23:34 Anybody putting absolute faith in people to fix this world,
23:38 is going to be bitterly disappointed.
23:40 I mean, we've never pulled it off in the past,
23:43 and I don't believe for a moment
23:45 we're going to pull it off in the future.
23:47 So, why trust mere people with the future of the planet?
23:51 Again, that doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing,
23:54 it just means that fixing it
23:56 is going to take something more than what we have to offer.
24:01 So, who do you want to trust with the future?
24:03 Self-interested people who always seem to use others
24:06 to accomplish their aims,
24:08 or would you rather have a God who sacrificed everything
24:11 to secure a future for you?
24:14 Historically speaking, there was only one person
24:17 who perfectly reflected the image of God,
24:20 one person who lived a completely selfless life,
24:23 one person who was willing to lose everything,
24:25 if it meant your utter and complete restoration.
24:29 And I would like to suggest that
24:30 before you believe any more promises
24:32 from well-meaning politicians or social engineers,
24:36 that you consider the claims of Christ,
24:38 because maybe just maybe he really does have the ability
24:42 to give you the peace of God,
24:45 which surpasses all understanding.
24:47 I'll be right back after this.
24:50 [upbeat music]
24:54 - [Promoter] Life can throw a lot at us.
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25:23 - Here's one of the problems with trying to engineer
25:25 a better future for your grandkids,
25:27 and that's our skewed understanding
25:29 of what makes people happy.
25:31 I mean, just think back to the world's fairs
25:33 of the 18 and 1900s
25:35 or some of the articles that appeared
25:37 in "Popular Science" journals back in the 1950s.
25:40 Everybody was optimistic,
25:42 because technology promised more leisure time and less work.
25:47 But when we actually made life more convenient,
25:49 we weren't any happier.
25:50 In fact, I think it's the opposite.
25:54 Our generation has more comfort, more security,
25:56 more disposable income
25:58 than almost any generation that came before it,
26:01 but we're not happier than our ancestors.
26:04 We're just a little more comfortable.
26:07 I mean, just ask yourself, why are we dealing
26:10 with unusually high levels of depression and anxiety?
26:13 Why has the political world become more divided,
26:16 more polarized, and more hostile?
26:19 Apparently, all the technology in the world
26:22 hasn't fixed our worst problems.
26:25 Again, let's think about that experiment
26:27 that was the former Soviet Union.
26:29 All those five-year economic plans,
26:30 all those carefully thought out government initiatives,
26:34 none of them did anything to help.
26:36 In fact, apart from a handful of party elites,
26:40 those decisions made people more miserable.
26:43 So, are we really smart enough
26:45 to figure out what's gonna make the human race happy?
26:49 Again, God absolutely expects us to alleviate suffering.
26:54 He expects us to feed the hungry and clothe the poor.
26:57 He expects us to care for the planet,
26:59 and yes, leave it better than we found it.
27:02 But at the same time, I think we should remember
27:04 a couple of important realities.
27:07 One, trying to tinker with the future
27:09 in ways we think is appropriate,
27:11 that's probably a losing game.
27:14 Two, speaking from a biblical perspective,
27:17 we know we're not gonna fix it.
27:19 The Bible indicates quite clearly
27:22 that you're not gonna solve what's wrong with this place.
27:25 Our existence is a little bit
27:26 like an old-fashioned Greek tragedy.
27:29 It doesn't matter how well you plan,
27:31 if you can't get rid of your fatal flaw,
27:34 it's going to destroy you.
27:36 From the Bible's perspective, the problem only gets solved
27:40 after the judgment when the Son of Man receives His kingdom
27:44 and He restores this world to what it's supposed to be.
27:47 And I don't know about you,
27:49 but if God is real, and I know He is,
27:52 then I think you'd rather have Him plan the future
27:54 than somebody like me.
27:56 Thanks for joining me.
27:58 I'm Shawn Boonstra, and you've been watching "Authentic".
28:02 [upbeat music]
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28:23 [upbeat music continues]


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Revised 2023-12-06