Behold the Lamb Presents

Women's Ordination -part 3

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Chris Shelton (Host), Kenneth Shelton


Series Code: BTLP

Program Code: BTLP000069

00:41 Hello and welcome to the Behold the Lamb presents.
00:44 I'm Chris Shelton your host
00:45 and we want to welcome you to our Bible study today.
00:48 Today's message is actually the third
00:51 and final message in our three part series
00:53 that we've entitled "Women's Ordination."
00:58 You know, friends, it's worth our repeating
01:01 from part two of this series
01:03 that our hierarchical position does not change
01:06 our equality with God or His love for us.
01:09 Nor does it change the importance of our work.
01:12 In Manuscript Releases, number 9 and page 115,
01:16 it reads, "The Lord wants living members in His church,
01:20 men and women who will encourage
01:22 one another in faithful service."
01:25 And from the Review and Herald dated June 2nd, 1903
01:29 it was written "It is the Lord's purpose
01:32 to have a well-trained army,
01:35 ready to be called into action at a moment's notice.
01:38 This army will be made up of well-disciplined men and women
01:42 who have placed themselves under influences
01:45 that have prepared them for service."
01:48 And finally before our concluding study
01:51 on this subject today with Pastor Kenny Shelton,
01:53 allow me to share one more rather short quote
01:56 as found Manuscript Releases again.
01:59 But this time number 5 and page 162,
02:04 "God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes,
02:08 high and low, rich and poor.
02:10 In this work women may act an important part.
02:15 God grant that those who read these words
02:17 may put forth earnest efforts to present an open door
02:22 for consecrated women to enter into the field.
02:25 It is not eloquence that makes their work acceptable.
02:28 It is through the human and contrite that the Lord works."
02:32 Friends, we have all been given a heavenly commission
02:36 of soul winning work to be done before the Lord's second coming
02:40 and because of this call upon many women's hearts
02:45 the question of ordination
02:46 as pastors as occurred within the church.
02:49 So let's conclude giving an answer to this question
02:52 through our together today with Pastor Kenny Shelton.
02:56 But before we do just that let's turn our hearts heaven.
03:00 Well, shall we?
03:01 Through this song that is entitled "Remember Me"
03:04 and it's sung by Sandra Entermann
03:06 from the 3ABN Worship Centre.
03:22 Remember me
03:27 In a Bible cracked
03:29 And faded by the years
03:36 Remember me
03:40 In a sanctuary
03:42 Filled with silent prayers
03:49 And age to age
03:53 And heart to heart
03:56 Bound by grace and peace
04:03 Child of wonder, Child of God
04:09 I'll remember you
04:15 Remember me
04:30 Remember me
04:34 When the color of the sunset
04:38 Fills the sky
04:43 Remember me
04:47 When you pray and the tears of joy
04:49 Fall from your eyes
04:56 And age to age
04:59 And heart to heart
05:03 Bound by grace and peace
05:09 Child of wonder, Child of God
05:16 I'll remember you
05:22 Remember me
05:36 Remember me
05:41 When the children leave
05:43 Their Sabbath school with smiles
05:49 Remember me
05:53 When they're old enough to teach
05:56 Old enough to preach
05:59 Old enough to leave
06:04 And age to age
06:07 And heart to heart
06:11 Bound by grace and peace
06:17 Child of wonder, Child of God
06:23 I'll remember you
06:29 Remember me
06:32 Age to age and heart to heart
06:35 Child of wonder, Child of God
06:42 Remember me
06:45 Age to age and heart to heart
06:48 Child of wonder, Child of God
06:54 Remember Me
07:18 Thanks for joining us again. Praise God.
07:20 Remember, subject is Women's Ordination.
07:23 Now this is topic that we need to know
07:25 what truth is, don't we?
07:27 Even if it maybe not be popular today
07:29 I know as the child of God
07:31 you want to know what truth is and I do too.
07:33 And you know what once we find out
07:35 and maybe we've made a mistake,
07:37 we need to ask God to forgive us and what simply what?
07:39 Follow the Word whatever the cost
07:41 maybe God will bless us if we do.
07:44 So we're gonna continue,
07:45 remember this is the third part of three part series.
07:48 And so the first two, we've covered awful lot of material
07:51 and if you've missed them you want to get it.
07:53 And on this third part here,
07:54 we get right into some real meed of the word.
07:56 So if you've missed the first two you might be little fuzzy
07:58 but it all makes sense, all balanced upon scripture.
08:02 But before we get into,
08:04 we always pray once again for the power of the Holy Spirit.
08:07 Would you kneel with me some of you where you can
08:09 and others maybe you're going down the road of whatever
08:12 just pray along as you can.
08:13 Let's pray.
08:15 Loving Father in heaven,
08:16 we thank You for the privilege for prayer.
08:17 We ask now for the power of thy Holy Spirit
08:19 to consume each and every one of us.
08:21 Open our hearts and our minds
08:23 may we see Jesus, may we see the truth,
08:25 maybe we'll be willing to follow
08:27 what you have said in Your word.
08:28 And we're going to thank You in advance
08:30 for that in Jesus name, amen.
08:34 You know we have a big question here
08:35 and we're gonna start this third part with a question.
08:38 Talking about big question is,
08:39 should women in the church be in a teaching position
08:44 which gives them authority over man?
08:47 Now again if you miss the other
08:48 you're going kind be a little bit confused
08:50 but should they be-- should they be in the church
08:52 teaching in a position where they have authority over man.
08:55 You've realized the Bible really answers that.
08:57 Touchy, touchy, touchy
08:59 and lot of people don't want to approach it and they try to say
09:01 "well, we're looking down and you try."
09:02 We want to know what God's word says.
09:04 So why don't we just way it out today.
09:06 Now what kind of teaching we're talking about?
09:08 We're talking about the authoritative teaching
09:11 that an elder or a pastor should be doing.
09:15 And then you know and again we've mentioned several times,
09:18 it has nothing to do with the ability.
09:20 It has nothing to do with say with brain.
09:22 It has to do with education.
09:24 It has nothing to do how great,
09:25 how qualified that a women maybe, individual maybe.
09:29 Paul's instruction is very, very clear
09:31 we either follow it or we make excuses for it.
09:34 We follow it and here's what he said to Timothy.
09:37 He said to Timothy, "He prohibited a woman to teach,
09:40 or to have authority over the man."
09:43 Heard an awful lot of excuses over the years
09:45 and just say "well, he didn't mean that."
09:46 Yeah.
09:47 Well, if you say that I might be--
09:49 I'll pick a few other things
09:50 and say "well, I think that he really meant that."
09:52 Paul said he didn't want women to teach
09:54 or to have in a teaching position
09:56 that has authority over men.
09:57 Didn't say they couldn't teach the authority over man.
10:00 This then by itself as 1 Timothy 1:3 says
10:05 absolutely rules out a woman
10:07 from being a pastor or the overseer of man.
10:11 Kind of interesting thought isn't it.
10:14 Some of you bring up say yeah, but you remember
10:16 Aquila and Priscilla you know
10:17 and in their home church and things were going.
10:19 Yeah, we might be just be really be honest here.
10:22 Do you remember Paul?
10:23 Paul spends some time, he was in Ephesus, he was in Corinth.
10:28 He was in different times at different places
10:30 and when he traveled he stayed in people's houses.
10:33 He became acquainted with well educated women,
10:38 women who ran businesses,
10:39 women who owned businesses, women in authority.
10:43 Interesting, he even stayed in their house
10:45 but this was still what he said.
10:48 He said he stepped off
10:49 that a woman should not teach in a capacity
10:53 that would have authority over a man.
10:55 That will be hard to do, wouldn't it.
10:57 But I'm real good friends with everybody
10:58 unless it's a truth of God's word
11:00 and then we all have to bow to there or we should.
11:03 Interesting--what was some of the reasons
11:05 or let's say one of the reasons right now
11:07 we'll hit it two or three times as we go on
11:09 or principle of his position.
11:11 Why would he take this position which is so controversial?
11:14 Why?
11:16 Well, Paul uses to say 1 Timothy 2:13 he said
11:20 "Adam was first formed"
11:22 notice this "formed first and then Eve."
11:25 So Adam then had to responsibility of leadership.
11:30 He had headship.
11:32 He was the first born in the family.
11:35 You can read about Christ being the first born
11:37 in 1 Corinthians or 1 Colossians 1:15-18 I believe.
11:42 Take time to read it.
11:43 It refers to Christ as the first born.
11:45 And you know He was before all and in all.
11:50 But as Paul is talking about here,
11:52 some people are challenged.
11:54 I mean, they're really challenged
11:55 with the teachings of Paul
11:57 but my question would be are we wiling to accept them
12:00 as we see that they are the truth of God's word
12:03 regards that what we might want to be
12:05 or you know our position right now.
12:07 Are we willing to follow God's word,
12:08 that's always the big question?
12:12 Are we willing to follow from a biblical standpoint?
12:16 And if we do, we know that its Paul taught
12:18 they should be under the leadership
12:20 or the woman should be under the headship
12:22 of a man called into office.
12:24 You know, calling the pastor and elder of the church.
12:29 Bible clearly, clearly teaches that a man as what?
12:32 As head as leadership role is to be like Christ.
12:37 Boy, what a challenge to be like Christ.
12:39 The spiritual leader not only probably in the church
12:42 but also in the home.
12:45 Interesting and notice this some of you go
12:48 just raise right off the couch
12:50 but realize that Bible is very clear the women
12:52 is to be in a submissive,
12:54 supporting, assisting help meed,
12:57 to the man in the leadership role.
13:00 That's what the Bible talks about, isn't it?
13:02 Yeah, we have to line up with the word.
13:05 Now we talk about the female role,
13:07 you know, it doesn't mean that a woman
13:09 just you know has to completely just bow to the man
13:13 and you know she loses her, your individuality.
13:16 That's not what he's talking about here
13:17 or a conscience to the man.
13:20 Her first obligation is to God.
13:23 Notice this, her service is to her husband, very interesting.
13:28 Because what, because this is fit in the Lord
13:31 as it would be fit in the Lord.
13:33 And notice only those women in that's fit in the Lord
13:36 that would be have relationship with God
13:39 will be able to give this kind of submission.
13:42 You have to have relationship with God.
13:44 Not I want, I think or it should be.
13:48 I'm sure at this point
13:49 some of you are gonna say "oh wow, wow."
13:51 Well, "oh I have got."
13:52 They'll say I-- and they use this all the time.
13:54 Well, what about Deborah and Huldah, what about them?
13:58 It's very interesting first of all they were prophets.
14:02 We should never entertain shame on you,
14:05 shame on me or anybody else
14:07 when you're talking about ordination
14:08 of an elder or a pastor
14:10 and then you bring in and compare it
14:12 with the office of a prophet.
14:14 That will be like comparing they say,
14:15 you know, got to have apples over here
14:17 and somebody has got oranges
14:18 and you're trying to make them the same thing.
14:20 First of all we should never do it.
14:22 But since some of you do
14:23 let's talk about it in just a little bit.
14:25 Remember, we cannot we must not be confused
14:29 the office a prophet cannot be confused
14:32 with the office of a pastor or an elder
14:36 who they're actually in service.
14:38 They're in elected leadership role
14:41 but you know in the Bible the prophet was called of what,
14:44 called and chosen of God.
14:48 Even in the Old Testament you'll find the Kings,
14:50 you'll find the Judges, you'll find that priest
14:53 were all subject to the prophets
14:55 that's what the Bible said isn't it.
14:57 Let's make a comparisons can we do that?
15:00 Since some of you, since some of you used Deborah.
15:03 And again we should not do that
15:04 because there is a prophet
15:05 and we're talking about ordination
15:06 of elders and pastors.
15:07 They're not prophets, that's a different position
15:10 but since some of you use that let's look at that quickly.
15:13 Since, Deborah is used by some as proof
15:17 for women's ordination as an elder or a pastor.
15:21 Maybe the closest comparisons
15:24 would be that of Ellen G White, may not be so bold.
15:28 First of all let's do a few things.
15:30 First of all Ellen White she never claimed
15:33 to be a leader of the church.
15:37 She was never ordained by the denomination.
15:42 Number three, she never performed
15:46 the duties of an ordained minister.
15:49 Wow, now as we look at these things and the Bible teaches,
15:54 we have to pay close attention to it.
15:57 But remember again, Deborah a prophet a judge,
16:01 she was called to lead Israel there's no doubt about it.
16:04 But let me say this, Debra was called
16:07 to lead Israel in the absence of a capable man.
16:10 I know you don't want to hear it
16:12 but that's to read Judges Chapter 4.
16:15 See the Judges of Israel always led the army into battle.
16:20 Interesting, the judges always right there who are in charge
16:23 always led the army of Israel into battle.
16:26 But here, you know, the God said that
16:30 "Barak was to lead the army."
16:32 Read that in verse 6 and 7 of Judges 4.
16:36 But interesting he went Deborah and he said
16:39 "ah, if you don't go with me I'm not going to go."
16:43 How sad that is.
16:45 Here again this just kind of builds up what I'm talking here
16:49 because Signs of the Times in June 16, 1881
16:53 talks about this reference.
16:55 Notice this "Although he had been designated
16:59 by the Lord himself as the one chosen to deliver Israel,
17:03 and had received the assurance of God would go with him
17:08 and subdue their enemies, yet he was timid and distrustful."
17:16 See, she didn't go lead the armies,
17:18 all of the judges but they always went.
17:21 But now God called right another man to go
17:23 and lead the army into victory
17:25 and because he was distrustful of himself
17:28 he was timid and shy,
17:30 Judges 4:16 says Israel pursued the enemy
17:33 and there it was not a man left.
17:36 Now keep on this it's very, very important.
17:39 Although the enemy the enemy was route,
17:41 the God still blessed
17:42 but notice there was one man that was left.
17:45 And he ran and he hid, you can read all of that--
17:48 the account of it we don't have time
17:49 to go into everything.
17:50 He ran and hid at the tent
17:52 and then finally he was came to life that he was an enemy
17:55 and another woman Jael she end up taking his life
18:00 when she find out he was an enemy.
18:03 And so the battle didn't go to the, you know, the glory.
18:06 They say the battle didn't go to a man.
18:08 It did not go to Deborah it went to the woman
18:11 who had killed the enemy.
18:13 Interesting, Judges 4 read that 9:17-25.
18:18 See this example helps me to understand
18:20 or help that a man sometime refuses to lead.
18:24 He refuses to do that role that God has put him into.
18:28 And when he refuses and there is no one there to do it
18:31 there is need for someone to step up.
18:33 And many times he has used a woman to do that like Deborah.
18:38 Now remember in the absence of what?
18:40 A capable man.
18:42 Now you'll say well, what about the New Testament.
18:44 Well, in Acts Chapter 15, the New Testament church
18:48 they faced all kind of issues.
18:50 They face theological issues
18:53 which must be settled by the Word of God.
18:55 So you were looking at a theological issue right now
18:58 and it has to be settled by what, by the Word of God here.
19:01 It's not a certain little group,
19:03 it's not a group over here it says
19:05 "we can settle because it's a theological issue"
19:08 or group who gets together and say
19:09 "well, I think we all do it this is best for the church,
19:11 this is best for this group over here."
19:13 What does God's word have to say about it?
19:17 Not a group who just wants the issue
19:19 to be you know carried it out in a certain way.
19:22 No not given to the hands of a group
19:24 who is willing to compromise the truth away
19:27 just to get it resolved to keep down the--
19:30 you know uneasiness.
19:34 Not just someone just says you know
19:36 this would be good in this country
19:38 and this would be over here.
19:40 The Word of God is uniformed it's around the world
19:44 and we all to need to come in unity
19:45 and harmony of the Word of God.
19:47 So what did the New Testament do
19:48 when they'd the theological crisis
19:51 just like we have in many areas today?
19:53 What did they do?
19:54 Well, first of all the meeting was called.
19:56 If so praise God that's what we do.
19:58 Delegates from all over that were called in.
20:01 They came together, they came for a discussion of the issue.
20:05 And wouldn't it be nice today
20:06 if we follow the counsel given in the Word of God.
20:09 And you know what was that--
20:11 that's what we do we have theological crisis
20:13 we call different people in.
20:14 It's interesting but many times it's difficult
20:16 because some people already have their mind made up.
20:19 Oh, we went so far that we're afraid to go backwards now
20:22 and to admit that we made a mistake.
20:24 Would it better to admit that and turn and like God blesses?
20:27 I think so.
20:30 Let's go and we might look at the end of the day
20:32 we might hear this.
20:33 And I think I have this a few times.
20:35 Have the meeting people come together and talk about it
20:38 and the people in charge will meet together
20:39 and say we just had a good meeting,
20:42 it was nice that people voiced their opinion
20:44 but you know what, no changes took place.
20:48 We cannot overlook and once again the office
20:52 of an elder or a pastor, the ordination.
20:54 Here is what it says remember
20:56 they must be the husband of one wife.
21:00 Now that's just doesn't eliminate a women
21:03 for being ordained as an elder or pastor.
21:04 I don't know what? How can we throw that out?
21:07 I'm not trying to be cruel,
21:09 not trying to be ugly on the issue.
21:11 I'm not-- but how is it that
21:13 when we want something to take place we throw things out.
21:16 An elder and pastor must be the husband.
21:20 So ladies, unless you can be the husband you disqualified
21:24 that's what the Bible says.
21:28 You know I have heard many people give a lot of reasons
21:31 for things that I have just talked about here
21:33 and you know well, this is what it means
21:34 and this is, you know, let me just say bold
21:37 it means exactly what it says.
21:39 That's exactly what it means.
21:41 Yeah, it's up to us to have the relationship with Christ
21:43 that we are willing to follow that even if our hearts desire
21:45 maybe something else, we need to pray the God will help us.
21:48 We should not try to change the Word of God.
21:51 We're not different than lot of the other people
21:53 we say in lot of churches in different thing.
21:55 Oh, they're changing the word to suit theirs.
21:57 We do not want to be known by
21:58 well, we're gonna change it
21:59 to suit what we want to see happen in our movement.
22:04 Remember-- remember, this when the meetings were finished
22:07 that we were talking about in the New Testament church,
22:10 you know nothing was voted on
22:13 just because there was a need in the certain area
22:19 or they wanted to vote because they just wanted to vote
22:22 and get it over with
22:23 and just then no one else to fill the office
22:25 or they just put somebody in there.
22:28 The voting ended,
22:30 and it became binding listen, on all churches.
22:33 Well, the New Testament leadership came together
22:36 theological issues, when they got done they voted on it
22:39 and that's what they carried out in every church.
22:42 But sometime we say well, this group can do this in this area.
22:46 Oh, this group can do this in this other area.
22:49 And some of you can't do it at all
22:50 and you can only go this far and not the other.
22:53 See that's not scriptural that's not biblical at all.
22:57 Now let's go into look, let's look and I'm afraid to this.
23:00 I'm really afraid that many people
23:02 they don't want to as they say backup
23:05 they want to look at it straight forward.
23:08 We can only pray as we see these two,
23:10 why, because the blessings of God
23:12 can only be gift to a people to a church
23:14 and a movement that follows His word
23:17 regardless, if there is some people upset.
23:20 We got to follow God's word.
23:21 You want people upset you want God upset with us?
23:23 Now I know you, you want, we want the blessings of God.
23:27 Some of you gonna say well,
23:28 look you know this issue right here
23:30 was different before sin entered in
23:32 and now after sin they've ever lived.
23:34 Let me let's just clarify that shall we clarify that.
23:37 God established before the fall
23:42 that Adam right, he was the principle
23:45 or he was the male, he was the headship,
23:48 he was the leader.
23:50 That was the principle, before the fall Adam was the head.
23:56 Paul writes this in 1 Corinthians 11:3
23:58 he said "But I would have you know that the head"
24:00 listen "of every man is Christ."
24:03 Now if you think it's gonna get easier
24:05 as we go along bless your heart its not.
24:07 If you're in opposition,
24:09 you know, we have a lot of people in opposition
24:11 to what is true but please don't be.
24:14 You have an argument you argue with the Holy Spirit,
24:16 argue with the word if you think you ought to do that.
24:18 I don't think you should.
24:20 Let's just accept it. Here's what Paul said.
24:22 "But I would have you know that
24:23 the head of every man is Christ."
24:25 Praise God.
24:26 Listen, "and the head of the woman is the man
24:31 and the head of Christ is God."
24:33 Now notice how he continues on in 2 Timothy 2:12, 13, 14.
24:39 It simply says this "that a woman is not to" what?
24:45 "Usurp authority over the man."
24:48 So she is not to be in a capacity that what,
24:50 that puts her over the man.
24:52 We're talking about in the home
24:53 we're talking about in the church.
24:56 Read verse 13 he says once again
24:58 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve."
25:01 Verse 14 he said "Adam was not deceived,
25:05 but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
25:09 There is a reason why God chose,
25:11 He set it up and put man as the head
25:14 in the home and in the church.
25:17 And he should not be in submissive
25:18 as it were to some of the women in leadership in the church.
25:22 He is the head, leadership role.
25:25 Now notice this.
25:27 You need to listen to this quote.
25:28 Patriarchs and Prophets, page 58.
25:32 This really begins to hit home if you think about this word.
25:36 "Eve was told of the sorrow and the pain
25:39 that must henceforth be her portion."
25:43 And the Lord said this call is in Genesis 3:16.
25:46 It says "now he said because sin."
25:48 Now before sin what Adam was still ahead,
25:51 now sin has come in
25:53 and then God says to Eve now this is going pain and sorrow,
25:56 childbirth, this is gonna be your portion.
25:58 Now He said "Thy desire shall be to thy husband,
26:02 and he shall rule over thee."
26:05 And no don't get all excited about.
26:07 Somebody would say yeah get all flush, don't listen.
26:10 That's what the Bible says.
26:12 But we need to look at and we want to balance it out
26:14 the way it should be here if you give enough time
26:16 and listen and not close your ears.
26:18 The word rule you look at in the Hebrew right here it says
26:22 it's gonna have dominion over, he's going to govern over,
26:25 he's going to rule over.
26:26 That's what it really means.
26:28 "Thy desire will be to thy husband" that means,
26:31 I-- this right here that word desire means,
26:33 I'm-- she is always going to be looking
26:35 to her husband for guidance.
26:38 She's going to stretch out often after him.
26:43 That's way the God set it up.
26:46 In the beginning they were what?
26:47 Certainly equal but sin came in.
26:49 Man, did that change things? Absolutely.
26:53 Reading on notice this,
26:55 "In creation God had made her the equal of Adam."
27:00 See, lot of people trying to say oh, I still--
27:02 doesn't mean one's any better than the other
27:04 but remember there is headship there is leadership.
27:07 God had designed it such.
27:09 "In the beginning He made her equal of Adam.
27:12 Had they remained obedient to God"
27:16 listen "in harmony with His great law of love,
27:20 they would have ever been in harmony with each other."
27:24 Have you ever found two people?
27:25 Well, I don't want to spend much time
27:26 go we not gonna little cover,
27:27 we're not gonna cover all this, Lord help us.
27:30 We see it right here.
27:31 That what happened is,
27:32 if they stayed obedient to God
27:33 they were always been in harmony with each other.
27:36 But when sin came in it changed everything.
27:39 Have you ever find two people who worked to
27:41 you know they have the kind of same mind
27:42 we call them sometime hardheads.
27:44 You can't get past it.
27:46 You can't any so God said,
27:49 I'm-- He is gonna designate one as leader over the other now,
27:52 headship because of the sin issue,
27:55 because they could never get along on that same plain.
27:58 Now notice how it says.
27:59 "They would ever been harmony with each other
28:01 but sin had brought discord"
28:04 listen, "and union could only" union between who?
28:09 Man and woman, "could be maintained
28:11 and harmony preserved
28:14 only by the submission on the part of one to the other."
28:19 Now why, why always say, why poor Eve why?
28:22 "Eve had been the first in transgression.
28:25 She had fallen into temptation."
28:27 Notice, people always say yeah, but she went.
28:30 Listen, where was her first problem?
28:32 Please read, the article is very clear
28:34 "by separating from her companion,
28:37 contrary to the divine direction."
28:40 Notice article goes on.
28:42 It was now listen here's the problem.
28:45 "It was by her solicitude" right "that Adam sinned."
28:49 She went to her husband and told him about it.
28:51 And what she solicit.
28:53 She was accountable for that.
28:54 She was tempted, she failed.
28:55 She was the first in transgression.
28:57 Harmony could not be maintained
29:00 unless God had set it up now that the man should rule over.
29:03 We're talking about in the Christ like way.
29:05 Notice, now notice this, now why because sin came in.
29:10 Now, "she was placed in subjection to her husband."
29:15 Sin issue, now this next part
29:18 it's not any lighter and it gets heavy.
29:21 It goes on it says "Eve had been perfectly happy."
29:25 See, we find a lot of Eves in the world today
29:27 they seemed to be but they're not happy in their position
29:30 and they're looking for other positions.
29:32 You see it more and more and more.
29:33 But God has a position for every one of us
29:35 and place to feel and we need to feel
29:36 what He you plan He has for us.
29:39 "Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side
29:44 even in Eden home but,"
29:47 listen this "like modern Eve's, she was flattered
29:52 with the hope of entering into a higher sphere"
29:56 listen, "entering into a higher sphere
29:58 than God had assigned her.
30:03 In attempting to rise above her original position,
30:09 she failed far below it.
30:13 A similar result will be reached by all
30:17 who unwilling to take cheerfully their duties
30:21 in accordance with God's plan.
30:24 In their efforts to reach notice to this
30:26 "in their efforts to reach a position
30:28 for which He had not fitted them, many are" what?
30:33 "Leaving vacant the place
30:35 where they might have been a blessing."
30:37 You think God doesn't have place,
30:39 you think God hasn't designed, you think God doesn't know.
30:41 Sure He does.
30:43 Because they want to reach something higher
30:45 a plain, a plateau that God has never set,
30:48 that's what He wanted them to do.
30:50 So by searching scriptures it becomes clear
30:52 that a male is to be the leader,
30:55 he is to be the head of the family
30:57 and head of the church,
30:59 the female is to be a supporting role.
31:02 The Bible says "a helpmeet."
31:05 Two points, God established this arrangement
31:09 but remember what He established this arrangement
31:12 because so many people will fight.
31:13 So many things I'm talking about there,
31:15 these are points on which people are fighting today.
31:17 God established this arrangement
31:19 before the fall of man.
31:22 And then after the fall of man He reiterated it.
31:25 He repeated it again.
31:28 Notice a few important points of leadership role
31:33 that God assigned to man at creation.
31:36 Please just balance it out with me.
31:37 I'm not trying to pick on the women
31:38 and I'm not trying to but its not a downplay at all.
31:40 God has assigned you a role, He has assigned me a role,
31:42 everybody a role we need to fulfill that
31:45 or it's gonna be something that's gonna be left.
31:46 We're trying to-- no we don't want to reach out that.
31:48 We don't want that "oh we're doing something
31:50 we're not supposed to be doing."
31:52 Who did God created first?
31:54 This is the first, who did, we talked about it.
31:56 He created Adam.
31:58 Paul uses this again when he says
32:01 "I do not permit woman to teach or to have authority over man."
32:07 It's interesting we always say "oh, Paul, what man of God.
32:08 What a man of God?"
32:09 There is something we read and we do want to hear it.
32:11 Oh, my, he sure messed up there.
32:13 He didn't really mean what he said.
32:15 You know better than that.
32:17 There has to be an explanation for why he said,
32:19 what he said so clear, so plain and we need to follow.
32:22 1 Timothy 2:12-13
32:24 we talked a little bit about it.
32:26 He said once again "Adam was first formed"
32:29 right first "and then Eve."
32:31 Adam was the first born let's go over it again.
32:34 "He must accept the responsibility
32:36 and leadership both in the family
32:38 and in the church."
32:40 Point 2, in Genesis 2:15-17, God gave Adam responsibility.
32:46 Listen He gave Adam responsibility
32:49 of keeping the garden.
32:52 And then he told Adam
32:54 then there about the tree as a test.
32:58 Adam was given, listen carefully
33:00 the spiritual role in the garden.
33:03 He was given the spiritual role.
33:06 Listen, the enemy knew this.
33:09 The enemy knew this,
33:11 he knew Adam was the spiritual leader
33:14 but you know what, so what did the enemy do?
33:17 He attacked and challenged Eve.
33:21 Interesting, not the spiritual leader but Eve.
33:26 The enemy speaks to Eve rather than to Adam.
33:31 And then I will say again, who disobeyed first?
33:33 Well, it was Eve.
33:35 Now but still what,
33:39 still proving Adam was still the leader
33:41 both in the home and in the spiritual lives.
33:45 Another thought listen, "who did after sin took place,
33:50 who did God call out by name after the fall."
33:56 Come on, somebody think with me, who did--
33:57 other words who was God
33:59 as it were number one holding responsibility--
34:02 given the responsibility to after the fall.
34:06 In Genesis 3:9-12 Adam was held accountable
34:10 for what Eve had done and of course, what he did.
34:17 God said be listen "Adam because thou has harkened
34:22 to the voice of thy wife."
34:26 See God wouldn't have handled this situation like this
34:30 if Adam was not already given the headship role.
34:35 Adam was a representative of the human family.
34:39 And notice this in the marriage
34:41 notice that what is Bible says.
34:45 That a man must leave his father and mother
34:49 and certainly unite with his wife.
34:52 Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:4, 5.
34:56 See the women's role the Bible is clear
34:58 "as to be a helpmeet
35:00 to compliment her husband in his work."
35:04 Genesis 2:18 and the verses 23 through 24.
35:09 "And then God charges man with a responsibility."
35:13 See after this then "God charges man
35:15 with responsibility to love and cherish
35:18 and take care of his wife."
35:20 Ephesians 5:25 in verses 28 and 31,
35:24 1 Peter 3:7, 1 Timothy 3:4 and Titus 1:6.
35:30 Now listen here's the thought.
35:32 When the enemy spoke to Eve
35:36 he was challenging God himself.
35:40 He was challenging God's headship.
35:44 He was challenging the role of man.
35:48 And now Eve, notice, the abode do we see it happening today.
35:53 And when Eve assumed a position that was not hers,
35:58 look what happened to her, the human race and the world.
36:03 Look, what happened to them immediately.
36:06 Listen, what happened to them immediately?
36:08 Immediately they turned on each other,
36:11 immediately blaming each other
36:13 the Bible says in Genesis 3:12,
36:17 male, female roles were reversed
36:22 as sin entered in.
36:25 Don't we see that today? Don't we see that today?
36:28 I'm not trying to be critical or condemning but you know
36:31 man stays home and takes care of the kids
36:33 and mama goes to work.
36:35 That it may not be helpful what the situations right,
36:38 but let-- don't reverse the roles.
36:40 God said "man will work six days
36:43 by the sweat of his grout.
36:44 Women would bare children take care of the home
36:46 as her first responsibility."
36:48 That because of sin roles were reversed.
36:53 She became the spokesman, interesting.
36:58 But Bible says what women is to submit herself
37:02 to her husband thy desire.
37:05 Remember Genesis 3:16 and we talked about here
37:07 "Thy desire shall be to thy husband
37:09 and he shall rule over thee."
37:11 Keep this in mind please Spirit of Prophecy
37:14 recognizes these principles, stay with me.
37:17 Even people have used this well, but now listen
37:20 things have changed now.
37:21 Oh, really?
37:23 We started before the fall and then go after the fall
37:25 and now you'll say "oh, yeah, but in the New Testament."
37:27 Now remember the things after the death
37:30 and resurrection of Christ things changed.
37:34 Really, listen to this Testimonies,
37:36 listen, on Sexual Behavior page 28.
37:39 This is heavy, "We women must remember
37:46 that God has placed us subject to the husband.
37:51 He is the head, our judgment and our views
37:57 and our reasoning must agree with his, if possible."
38:04 Now wait a minute,
38:07 if not we can't come to an agreement here.
38:10 Now we're gonna get clear on this subject.
38:11 We're not talking about just any man who thinks he is--
38:13 you know he's a ruler of the house
38:15 and he doesn't know God not talking about you.
38:18 We're talking about man
38:19 who says he's a Christian, man here.
38:20 But listen, okay, there's err we just can't get along,
38:23 we can't agree.
38:25 Spirit of Prophecy says this
38:26 "If not, the preference in God's Word
38:31 is given to the husband
38:34 where it is not a matter of conscience."
38:38 If your husband doesn't make you go against thus sayeth
38:40 the Lord then it says we is to agree with our husband.
38:44 Notice this she says "We" women
38:48 "must yield to the head."
38:52 Wow, that must be hard, that must maybe hard to write down,
38:55 maybe hard to swallow today but listen once more
38:58 1 Testimonies 307, "The husband is the head of the family,
39:03 as Christ is the head of the church any course"
39:07 listen carefully "any course which the wife may pursue
39:11 to lessen his influence to lead him down from his dignified,
39:17 responsible position is displeasing to God."
39:22 And interesting and for those who use Galatians 3:28
39:26 where it says "O it's neither male nor female."
39:30 This statement can be used to indicate anything.
39:33 It indicates that homosexuality is acceptable
39:35 some people will say I don't need male and female.
39:38 You can't say homosexuality then its right,
39:40 then it's acceptable.
39:45 So it really can't be used to do away with what, God's plan.
39:49 There are different roles of the women
39:51 and different roles of the man.
39:53 Remember, women that it's the equality
39:57 between a man and a woman, male and female
40:01 but what the male is the head, he is responsible,
40:05 he is the leader of the family and in the church in the Lord.
40:09 Now notice this with me.
40:10 Listen, now Adventist Home page 117.
40:13 Here's for all of you man who jumping up and down
40:14 clapping your hands don't be it too soon.
40:17 If you're not in the Lord you're not serving Him
40:18 then you don't qualify.
40:20 Is it okay, to say that I think it is?
40:22 Because I hear a lot of people say that
40:24 they're not Christians,
40:25 they're not using the Bible as a rule of thumb.
40:26 They try to rule the wife and load it over her
40:29 you have no right to do that
40:30 because you don't have to judgment the Word of God.
40:32 Listen what the Adventist Home, 117 says.
40:35 "You cannot", talking about the man,
40:36 "you cannot claim this role if you're not in the Lord.
40:42 It was not the design of God that the husband
40:45 should have control, as head"
40:47 listen "over the house
40:49 when he himself does not submit to Christ."
40:54 So if he submits to Christ little different issue,
40:57 if he doesn't submit to Christ he can't fulfill that role,
40:59 then can he.
41:01 Now notice this, "He must be under the rule of Christ
41:05 that he may represent the relationship of Christ
41:09 to the church."
41:10 Now listen as this goes, listen.
41:13 Now somebody would say well in my house we all go to church
41:15 but you know here, and listen this.
41:17 "Unless he is coarse, rough, boisterous, egotistical,
41:24 harsh, overbearing man, let him never utter the words
41:31 that the husband is the head of the wife."
41:34 So if you're one of those harsh, rough, boisterous,
41:36 egotistical, harsh, overbearing man
41:38 never ever utter those words to your wife.
41:43 That well, I'm the husband I'm head of the wife.
41:47 And then notice this so let's get pretty
41:50 we have to look at it closely.
41:51 "And that she must submit to him in everything."
41:55 But notice this, "for he is not the Lord,
41:59 he is not the husband
42:01 in the true significance of the term."
42:05 I didn't say you can't you know can't work along with
42:09 and be the helpmeet with and can't agree and get along.
42:12 But she says you don't have to do everything
42:14 when it goes against the principles of God's word
42:16 if he is that kind of man.
42:17 He hasn't given his heart to Jesus.
42:19 If he has and he's trying, he's working day by day
42:23 to be what God wants him to do to be his role in the church
42:27 right and in the home he is the head the leader.
42:30 See much of this dilemma as far as I'm concerned
42:32 can be traced back to poor leadership of man,
42:36 of elders and pastors even today
42:38 in the past and the present.
42:40 The poor teaching, the poor self control
42:43 that they haven't been converted their laziness
42:46 and the cause of Christ and looking for somebody
42:48 to take the load off and their burden
42:50 so they don't have to do it and let somebody else do it.
42:53 They lack a spiritual backbone.
42:57 This is dangerous.
43:00 And because we have not men stood
43:04 where we're supposed to stand upon the Word of God
43:06 is become necessary many times for God to call a woman
43:09 to do in an office first time
43:12 to fulfill because we haven't done it.
43:15 Shame on us.
43:17 Women are to fill their roles
43:18 and we're fulfill our roles, it's dangerous.
43:23 And now because men haven't done what they do
43:25 there's call now going and forward rapid now
43:28 for women's ordination.
43:30 Won't you think is the time to for these abuses
43:33 to come to a close.
43:35 Wouldn't it be time for us to just to confess our wrongs
43:39 and our failures
43:40 and say God we want to lineup with scripture.
43:43 Let's not forget the fairness and equality.
43:47 In many times in the past with women this is not been so.
43:52 Example, where the husband and the wife ministered together
43:56 to working along side by side in ministry.
43:58 Remember, when it says in ministry
44:00 it doesn't mean you're a minister.
44:02 When it says we do ministry work
44:04 it doesn't mean you're pastor.
44:06 These are all different but in the ministry,
44:08 the ministry means in a work for Christ,
44:10 right, work for others.
44:12 Because some people will say
44:13 well, the wife shouldn't receive a wages
44:15 you know she works with her husband but she shouldn't.
44:17 Is that true? No it's true, she should.
44:21 Manuscript, 43, 1893, "If the Lord gives the wife"
44:26 of the minister listen "as well as the husband
44:29 the burden of labor, if she devotes her time
44:32 and her strength to visiting from family to family
44:36 opening the Scriptures"
44:38 notice "although the hands of ordination
44:42 have never been laid upon her, she is accomplishing a work."
44:47 Isn't that wonderful?
44:48 She is accomplishing a work
44:51 and that is inline with ministry.
44:54 "As the devoted minister and his wife engaged in the work,
45:00 they should be paid wages proportionate
45:03 to the wages of two distinct workers.
45:06 The Lord has put His spirit upon both."
45:09 Wow, heavy.
45:12 There again God calls us back to Scripture
45:16 as we come in line with it we must reject
45:19 and once again we must lineup with Scripture
45:21 we reject the ordination of women as elders and pastors
45:25 but at the same time don't forget
45:27 women have a legitimate role in ministry
45:30 in which the Bible gives the guidelines.
45:33 Book of Evangelism, 467 and 468.
45:36 Hey you may, we may, we can't we can't get by
45:39 without a good woman, with godly woman.
45:42 We need them and some people call me here
45:44 and say good thing, you have a godly wife
45:46 she keeps you in line.
45:48 Praise God, we need that balance.
45:52 But we look at here the women have a legitimate role
45:54 to work Evangelism.
45:55 Notice this "Wonderful is the mission of the wives
45:58 and mothers and the younger woman workers.
46:02 If they will exert an influence for good
46:06 to all around them."
46:07 Notice it oh, wow.
46:10 Good example, notice this, "By modesty in dress,
46:14 circumspect deportment,
46:16 they may bear witness to the truth in its simplicity.
46:21 They may let their light so shine before all,
46:23 that others will see their good works and glorify their Father
46:27 which is in heaven.
46:29 A truly converted woman will exert a powerful transforming
46:34 influence for good."
46:37 What do many things that many men cannot do
46:39 and do it better?
46:41 But it's not ordaining against what the Bible has said
46:44 of elders and pastors.
46:46 But the work that man cannot do.
46:48 Now notice how it says here.
46:49 Notice this article goes on talking about oh we've been,
46:52 "Connected with her husband
46:56 she may aid and be a blessing to him.
47:00 When the will and the way
47:02 are brought into the subjection."
47:05 If the will and the way are brought in subjection
47:07 "for the Spirit of God," listen
47:09 "there is no limit to do good that can be accomplished.
47:13 Man, get together men, women right if God is going to bless
47:16 and he just gonna bless our socks right out of us.
47:20 We need to follow what and be responsible for the role
47:23 that He has given us.
47:25 So I believe in this regards you have been reading
47:27 lot of things and I'm just touching just scratching
47:29 on lot of things that could be said.
47:31 We can go for as four or five more parts.
47:34 But I believe this with my whole heart
47:35 with all of said and all done.
47:37 Women are needed in the work. Their labor is valuable.
47:42 And I have said before they can do a work in families
47:44 that men just cannot do.
47:46 Some of us who are just not in touch with the lot of things.
47:50 There's a lot of needs in family.
47:52 A lot of women talk lot of things that go on.
47:57 And so really, the question then comes down to this.
48:01 Are we wiling each one of us willing to work in ministry
48:06 consistent to scripture, are we?
48:10 Well, godly women fulfill their roles
48:14 laid out in Scripture, remember before the fall
48:17 after fall reiterate the New Testament,
48:19 after the death,
48:20 right resurrection of Christ all still the same.
48:23 Nothing has changed.
48:28 Will men and women, will men and women
48:32 godly men and women fulfill their roles?
48:36 Will godly men take the place in the leadership roles
48:42 as God has ordained in headship.
48:47 When I say this we must not be driven by position
48:50 and you know well, I have this position here and--
48:55 Not driven by self seeking,
48:59 not trying to moving our own direction
49:05 but I find this there are many, many examples of godly women
49:08 in scripture and I know you'll find those too.
49:11 When man failed, once again when they failed
49:14 or they wouldn't accept the challenge
49:16 they stepped in temporarily
49:19 and they were consistent with the guidelines of the Bible.
49:23 They didn't have an ambition you know to desire
49:26 to be ordained as an elder priest
49:28 or an apostle as an elder.
49:31 They wanted to fulfill what God had called them to do.
49:35 Some of you may call about that even in the advent movement
49:40 that the call you know
49:41 the Spirit of Prophecy for two men.
49:45 They were fearful and they rejected the call
49:47 and God call a woman into the office.
49:52 Not that she couldn't do it, not the woman can't do it
49:55 that's not the issue.
49:56 They preach well, they do this, they teach well.
49:58 That's not the issue.
49:59 They're not to have a position to be ordained
50:01 as head over the man.
50:03 Kind of interesting.
50:06 All of us we're nearing the end of time.
50:09 You know, don't we want to just to kind of yoke up with Christ.
50:11 Don't we want to do the right thing?
50:13 Don't we want even if we have done the wrong thing?
50:16 And you remember when we once get off track
50:19 it's very difficult to get back on.
50:22 Because once we get off we start to make it
50:24 bigger messes along the way
50:25 that makes it more difficult to get back in.
50:27 But you know what we're always be blessed if we'll say
50:29 "oh God, I'm sorry I got off track
50:31 and we need to get back on."
50:34 So how can this ordination of women and so on of this elders
50:36 and pastors be legitimate in one area and not in other?
50:40 Legitimate in North America but not around the world?
50:42 It's not legitimate number one from scripture
50:44 but see all of a sudden we're farther and farther off.
50:46 We need to comeback to God, comeback to His word.
50:49 We want the blessings of God.
50:52 Oh, all of us are never, never ever to claim a higher work,
50:57 higher position than that which God has assigned us.
51:01 Be sure He's assigned it.
51:03 That's why scripture is here we need to go this is what
51:05 this is the role that God said He wants you to play.
51:08 God has assigned it assigned to say in accordance
51:11 with His plan let's not as Galatians 1:7
51:16 provoked the gospel of Jesus Christ.
51:20 And somebody say, well, I never did that.
51:21 I would never.
51:22 No maybe you didn't have any intentions to do it
51:25 but we've to line up with the word
51:28 even though the study may just be
51:30 so troublesome to some people.
51:34 We can never go wrong by searching the Scripture
51:37 and finding the answers to our questions.
51:40 We can never go wrong, never go wrong
51:45 by the grace of God to submit ourselves
51:48 to the scriptures to come in line.
51:50 Come with harmony with movement
51:52 to continue down the right path.
51:55 Not the wrong path. The right path.
52:01 Solid theological study which began in Eden
52:09 it will serve to the end of time.
52:12 It does not I say again does not allow--
52:15 because anybody is confused does not allowed
52:17 for women to serve in the leadership,
52:20 headship role of elder or pastor in the church.
52:25 Doesn't matter if you're some who are already and they are.
52:31 Bible does not sanction that.
52:33 And so we want to line up with the word don't we.
52:36 We must come to grips with it right now.
52:39 This is the most important topic.
52:45 We can't set aside the scriptures right now.
52:50 We've went so far down the road right now
52:52 what are we going to do.
52:53 We got to come back so that God can bless.
52:57 If we set this aside
52:58 and we don't come to grips with this
53:00 what are we going to do next?
53:02 What will happen next?
53:03 Well, we deviate from the truth.
53:05 And I know there's been lot of pressure from lot of people
53:07 in high positions because of their education
53:10 and because of their position and because
53:12 all they need to be they should be.
53:13 God says what needs to be and what not doesn't need to be.
53:17 Don't set aside the scripture.
53:22 We need to follow the Word of God.
53:27 Scripture reveals the will of God, does it not?
53:32 It must be the foundation of every decision that we make.
53:36 The Bible is its own interpreter.
53:38 One passage explains another line up on line.
53:43 And once again the ordination of women
53:45 as elders and pastors is unbiblical.
53:50 We want to ordain individuals right now we want to ordain
53:55 individual without regard to gender.
53:58 How sad.
54:00 God has the role of a woman.
54:02 He has the role of a man.
54:05 Sin came in, things changed.
54:08 And God put the man as head in the church
54:10 and head in the home as he is in the Lord.
54:15 But it's always drawn me to this movement as last minute
54:18 that we have has been the position proves all things.
54:22 Holdfast is that which is good?
54:24 And thus sayeth the Lord.
54:25 And I pray that yours as we go to Lord in prayer right now.
54:29 I drew me to this movement stick to scripture
54:33 regardless of popularly.
54:34 And people won't be popular and they want to do.
54:37 Let's commit to God right now as we pray
54:39 that we gonna follow His word whatever the cost maybe.
54:42 Our Father in heaven, we thank You for Your precious Word.
54:45 We pray now You'll bless us open hearts and our minds
54:47 help us to digest these things.
54:49 And as we digest and that we come up and we say
54:51 whatever the word says that's what we will do
54:53 by Your grace and strength.
54:54 And I thank You for in Jesus name, amen.
54:58 I know it's not an easy subject
55:00 and I know it's probably hurtful to many of us.
55:02 Never mind tensions but this subject
55:04 is like any other subject that want to come right down
55:06 to grips with what the Bible says
55:09 and then what I want to see is people willing
55:11 to make the changes because God has said.
55:14 Are you willing to fulfill the role
55:16 the plan that God has for you.
55:18 Oh, I know your today prayer about we love you
55:20 continue to call right then your support as we love you,
55:23 we will see you next time.
55:26 Hello and welcome back friends.
55:28 In closing I'd like to share another important
55:31 and pertinent quote as we close this study together.
55:35 It is found in Manuscript Releases number 2 and page 88.
55:40 "God's cause at this time is in special need
55:44 of men and women who possess Christ like qualifications
55:48 for service, executive ability,
55:50 and a large capacity for work who have a kind, warm,
55:54 sympathetic hearts sound common sense,
55:58 and unbiased judgment.
56:00 Who will carefully weigh matters before they approve
56:02 or condemn, and who can fearlessly say No,
56:06 or Yea and Amen.
56:08 Who, because they are sanctified by the Spirit of God
56:11 practice the words, 'All ye are brethren,'
56:15 striving constantly to uplift and restore fallen humanity."
56:21 Friends, find the balancing God's word
56:24 and in the Spirit of Prophecy that He has given to his church
56:28 for special guidance in these last days.
56:31 Don't be discouraged but be encouraged
56:34 that you both men and women have been called set apart
56:38 to proclaim the closing message of life
56:41 for a world in distress.
56:44 Our mission work is to start in the home first.
56:47 And then pray for God to open doors for you
56:51 to witness whatever He sees best for you to do so.
56:55 We certainly hope and indeed it is our prayer
56:58 that this sensitive issue has found a proper balance
57:01 in your minds as a result of this straightforward study.
57:06 I know that many of you would like to watch these messages
57:09 again and gain a greater retention,
57:12 a greater recall of what has been presented.
57:15 Therefore, this series entitled Women's Ordination
57:19 is being made available to you for a love gift of just $23
57:23 and more.
57:24 All you have to do is contact us by calling our ministry
57:27 here in the United States at area code 618-942-5044.
57:34 That's Central Standard Time or you may write
57:37 to Behold the Lamb Ministries, PO Box 2030,
57:40 Herrin, Illinois 62948.
57:43 Send us an email at
57:45 BeholdtheLambMinisteries
57:48 or check us out on our website.
57:50 You may order from there as well,
57:52 it's www.Behold
57:57 Until next time friends, may our precious Lord
58:01 continue to richly bless you and yours.


Revised 2014-12-17