Participants: Alex Schlussler (Host), Rachel Hyman (Host), Sasha Bolotnikov
Series Code: BTOR
Program Code: BTOR000004S
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00:01 Welcome to Back To Our Roots.
00:02 Today we have a great program for you. 00:05 We're going to be talking about Was Jesus raised as a Jew? 00:08 And more importantly, when He grew, did He teach against 00:12 the Mosaic law? 00:13 Stick around. We have a great program for you today. 00:36 Welcome to Back To Our Roots. 00:38 Wonderful to have you join us again. 00:40 Today we have a very special program. 00:43 We're going to be talking about Jesus as He is. That's right! 00:47 Real important concept. And let me introduce myself. 00:51 I'm Pastor Alex Schlussler, pastor of a congregation, 00:54 a church down in south Florida. 00:56 And... My name's Rachel Hyman. I'm a minister of music. 01:00 So Rachel and I have come up in a similar way: 01:05 both of us raised as Jews and then found Jesus as our Messiah. 01:11 And you know, when we bring a topic such as this, 01:14 Jesus As He Is, I think the first thing that people are 01:17 going to ask us is: "What do you mean Jesus as He is? " 01:22 Well Jesus is the God of the Christians so to speak. 01:27 And you know, from a Jewish perspective 01:30 I know that was a real hindering block for me. 01:33 Um-hmm. I don't know how that affected you, Rachel. 01:35 Well history and Christianity today portrays Jesus as 01:39 oh, very Christian or even sometimes pagan. 01:42 So to think of Jesus growing up as Jewish 01:44 in a Jewish home and even with possibly Jewish traditions 01:47 and customs seems a little... kind of a little foreign. 01:51 So you're saying and I know that's what we're saying 01:53 is that Jesus was raised as a Jew. 01:57 The culture that He came up in, 02:00 the traditions... He wouldn't have pushed them away. 02:04 He was very much a part of that civilization, of that culture, 02:09 and I think that that culture was very much a part of Him. 02:11 Yes. Today, Rachel, once again we have our good friend 02:15 Alexander Bolotnikov, Sasha we call him, 02:18 is here to throw a theological perspective on our discussion. 02:22 So Sasha, why don't you come on out and join us. 02:26 I'm glad to be with you again. 02:29 Yeah, Sasha. So Sasha, as I've told you 02:32 in the past, Sasha is a good friend of ours. 02:34 I've known Sasha for many years. 02:36 He is a wonderful speaker and teacher. 02:40 He is working on his Ph. D. right now, 02:45 almost completed. Yeah, almost completed. 02:47 Almost completed. So Sasha, today we're talking 02:49 about this idea of Jesus as He is. 02:52 And what we man by that is well, Jesus as a Jew 02:54 and how important that is for us as followers, 02:58 as believers in Jesus, to understand that. 03:01 So you know the question that we threw out was, was... 03:05 Jesus, He was a Jew, He was raised as a Jew 03:08 so I guess that means that He received a Jewish education 03:12 as well. So what would that have meant to Him? 03:16 It is interesting how the gospels portray 03:20 Jesus' childhood. 03:23 The only gospel written by a non-Jewish author, Luke, 03:27 because the other authors of the New Testament are Jewish. 03:31 Luke is not, but he is the only one who actually 03:34 goes into detail describing to us Jesus' upbringing. 03:39 And he starts with the fact that Jesus first was circumcised. 03:44 OK. So as it comes out does it literally say that? 03:48 Or is that something that through the way it's written 03:50 it infers that? No, no, it's very clear 03:54 in the text of Luke chapter 2 that His parents brought Jesus 03:59 to the temple to be circumcised. 04:01 So that would have been the eighth day. Of course. 04:03 On the eighth day. That's very clear in Jewish 04:06 commandment. And even today that's a traditional thing 04:09 which by the way - yes - I went through that as well. 04:11 Sasha, so go ahead. 04:14 Well basically that's the first interesting episode. 04:17 And this shows how basically... to me it tells me that 04:23 God has no intention to separate Jesus from the community 04:29 He lived in. Right. So He was circumcised on the 04:32 eighth day. Then what's the next thing 04:34 that we see happening in the gospels? 04:37 The next thing what we have in the gospel of Luke again 04:39 chapter 2 is the episode when He is 12 years old. 04:43 OK. And it says very interestingly 04:47 His parents attended the temple at the Passover 04:51 every year. Which would have been exactly 04:55 a traditional thing. God had commanded - right - 04:58 that the Jews would do that. Exactly. So we talk about 05:01 Mary, His mother, Joseph, you know. 05:04 We talk about... Luke - who is not Jewish - 05:08 clearly portrays them as Jewish parents. 05:11 So they're there around His twelfth year 05:15 for the Passover, but there would have been more going on. 05:19 Of course. What happens at the twelfth year... 05:21 What happens is He's lost in a way. 05:24 It's all very well known... it's a Christian story. 05:27 But people don't pay attention to the details. 05:30 So His parents come back to look for Him on the third day. 05:34 They find Him in the temple among the rabbis. Right. 05:40 And my question always when I like to discuss this story 05:44 my question is always: in the temple among rabbis? 05:51 What do rabbis do in the temple? 05:54 Because it's where the priests are supposed to be. 05:57 So literally doesn't mean that Jesus was somewhere 06:00 at the altar or God forbid at the Holy Place 06:04 or Most of Holy. It wasn't about He was doing some ritual. 06:08 He was at the adjacent facility which was actually 06:12 separated specifically for the study of Torah, the scripture. 06:17 And He was there studying scripture with rabbis. 06:21 And it is interesting that He was asking them questions 06:26 and answering their questions. 06:29 And at the 12-year-old... This is actually the time, 06:33 13-year-old, every Jewish boy 06:37 becomes what's known... literally known... the son 06:41 of the commandment - Bar Mitzpah. 06:43 Yeah. The son of the commandment means it's the period 06:46 of maturity - OK - when a teenager 06:52 is now responsible, he under- stands the commandment. Right. 06:56 So let's... Before we go any further, Sasha, 06:58 let's back up just a little bit and kind of briefly 07:02 can you take us through the progression that a young boy 07:06 would go through? Approximately what age 07:09 would he start his studies and how would that progression 07:12 go as he moves along? 07:15 Well the young boy today we know goes to 07:18 school to study the Torah 07:22 from four years old... four years of age. 07:25 And unlike Christian children 07:27 that actually start to learn about the Bible through some 07:31 felt tactile, the traditional Jewish children 07:35 they go start studying letters - the alphabet - so that they 07:40 could read the Torah. 07:41 And it's interesting. They have a chart with an alphabet 07:45 and they would make child recognize letters. 07:48 There's honey candy and they would... 07:51 and the child would pick up the candy. And every time he 07:55 recognized the letter he would get the candy. 07:57 Yeah. That's like Thy word is sweetness in my mouth. 08:01 Yeah, yeah... that's Psalm 19. 08:03 That's a good way. That's a good example of 08:06 how we teach our children to understand the book. 08:10 So as they moved along what would be the next step now 08:12 once they moved past that? 08:14 Then the next step is preparation to adulthood. 08:19 So they go to the rabbi and the rabbi teaches them 08:22 the Torah so that on their Bar Mitzvah at the age of 13 08:26 they could be prepared and they could answer questions. 08:30 They could give a little reading, you know, and discourse 08:34 over the Torah. And that's what Jesus came 08:37 to do at the temple. 08:40 When Mary and Joseph came and said: "Where are you? 08:44 Where have you been? " He said: "Don't you know 08:46 that I was where... "I must be about My Father's business. " 08:50 Well, the literal translation of this text says: 08:53 "I was in what belongs to My Father. " 08:58 OK. And what belongs to the Father? It's... 09:02 And actually Father's business is a good translation, 09:04 good explanation. This is the study of the Torah. 09:08 He wasn't kind of sitting at the temple like people imagine, 09:12 you know, around some kind of a huge cathedral 09:16 sitting in front. No! He was spending time with the 09:20 traditional learning institution. 09:23 It's called Yeshiva. 09:25 Yeshiva comes from the word Yesha... to seek... 09:28 when the disciples sit in front of the rabbi and they listen. 09:33 Wow! That exists even today. 09:35 For a Jew to go study in higher learning they would go 09:39 to Yeshiva. Now a quick question: 09:42 you know, today in Jewish communities Jewish people 09:45 keep not only Biblical laws but also Jewish tradition. 09:51 Would you say that Jesus also not only kept 09:55 obviously Biblical Jewish laws but also participated 09:59 in typical traditions? What would you say about that? 10:01 And even with a Bar Mitzvah, that's pretty much a custom? 10:06 Of course, there is nothing in the scripture about Bar Mitzvah. 10:10 Right, exactly. And we can look at Jesus. 10:13 At times He criticizes rabbis. Right. 10:17 And the gospel is our starting point to understand 10:21 where Jesus disagrees with rabbis and where He agrees. 10:25 So I guess we maybe want to say He kept the Jewish traditions 10:28 that wouldn't go against scripture. But that would be 10:30 just tradition. I mean, this is great. I mean, Bar Mitzvah... 10:34 Teaching the child, it's in harmony with what it says 10:38 in Proverbs where it says "instruct your child. " 10:42 "Raise up a child in the way he should go 10:44 and when he is old he will not depart... " 10:46 He partook of the tradition of the time. 10:48 Yeah, exactly. And you made a good point 10:50 because I think that what we see Jesus doing is 10:53 as long as those traditions didn't go contrary 10:57 to the Bible - to the scriptures - 11:00 He always supported it. 11:02 But we're going to shift just a little bit, and I want to ask 11:04 you this question, Sasha, because I think some people 11:08 may think the answer would be yes, and that is: 11:11 Did Jesus teach at any time against the Mosaic laws? 11:15 Against what we would know as Torah? Oh absolutely not! 11:19 And in fact we have touched on this in our previous 11:23 programs. But my entire doctoral dissertation 11:27 is actually dedicated to the question of whether or not 11:32 Jesus nullifies the law of divorces which is written 11:38 which is written in Deuteronomy 24 verses 1-4. 11:42 Because Jesus in the gospel of Matthew chapter 5- 11:46 the Sermon on the Mount - says: "You heard it spoken 11:51 if someone divorces his wife he shall write to her 11:56 a deal of divorcement. " 11:58 And it is often in the margins or in the commentaries 12:03 there is always a reference to Deuteronomy 24. 12:07 And as we mentioned before, often this is taken 12:11 for granted without actual reading of the law in the Torah. 12:15 The law in the Torah does not legislate divorce. 12:19 The law in the Torah is kind of lengthy and basically 12:22 what it says is it addresses the situation 12:26 when divorce actually has occured - it happened - 12:31 and the remarriage follows divorce. 12:34 And after this the second marriage falls apart. 12:37 Then the law legislates that the former husband 12:40 who initially divorced cannot take his wife back 12:46 after she remarries. That's what the law said. 12:48 Jesus isn't even talking about this. 12:50 Jesus addresses the issue which is in harmony with scripture. 12:55 In Malachi chapter 2 verse 16 12:59 God specifically said: "For I am the Lord, I hate divorces. " 13:04 And Jesus addresses this topic and talks about this. 13:09 So the Sermon on the Mount does not address 13:12 the issue... does not go against the laws which are in the Torah. 13:19 But the difference is in the Sermon on the Mount 13:23 Jesus always used: "You heard it said... 13:27 you heard it said. " And there He's speaking 13:30 in particular - we discussed this a little bit - about 13:33 the oral laws, right? which, at that time and even today 13:38 there is this... these two parallel strains within Judaism 13:42 that the Jews believe that the same time that the Torah 13:45 was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai 13:47 that an oral law was given to him at the same time. 13:52 Right. So Jesus is... He's not just speaking to them 13:55 saying, speaking against the Pharasaic, the Saducees' 13:59 abuse of Torah in how they're interpreting the oral law. 14:04 Yeah, those misinterpretations because the previous chapter 14:08 the story of His temptation at the desert 14:12 He always refers: "It is written; it is written. " 14:17 That's a great story. We'll take just a couple minutes 14:19 and let's talk about that because that's one of my 14:22 favorite examples in the New Testament 14:25 of how Jesus without a doubt is standing very firm 14:30 on quoting words from the Torah. Which by the way 14:35 in previous programs we've explained that when we use 14:38 the term Torah we're speaking most of the times of the first 14:42 five books of the Old Testament 14:44 but it also can mean the entire writings of the Old Testament. 14:48 So here in this little portion in the gospel of Matthew 14:54 chapter 4, you know, after Jesus has been baptized 14:57 and He heads out into the wildereness, literally it seems 15:01 like the Holy Spirit is driving Him out into the wilderness. 15:05 And He's going to spend 40 days fasting, right? 15:09 And then the enemy of our souls, Satan, appears to Him. 15:13 And this is like the greatest swordfight 15:18 with God's Word at this point, right? 15:20 Yeah. Because you get this picture of first Satan 15:24 quoting - at least you think he's quoting - 15:27 directly from scripture. And then we have Jesus 15:30 as you were saying, He'll say: "No, it is written... " 15:33 And there's this back and forth. 15:35 And I think that's such an important thing 15:38 for us to understand: 15:39 that Satan really knows the Bible. Um-hmm. 15:42 But it is very important for us to know the Bible 15:46 in it's context. Right, but let me finish 15:49 what I was saying. Satan knows the Bible and 15:51 because of that he really twists it. 15:54 And he will take it out of context... which is exactly 15:57 what this shows us. So Sasha, 16:01 describe to us a little bit from this Biblical standpoint 16:05 how we see Satan on one hand quoting something out of context 16:11 and how Jesus in each one of these back and forth, 16:14 these parries like a swordfight, Jesus is commenting back. 16:18 It is interesting that Jesus always refers 16:23 in His answers for example 16:26 the first time Satan approaches Him: 16:29 "Oh, if you are the Son of God... " which in Hebrew 16:34 also sounds: "If you are divine... " 16:37 You know, "If you have power to turn these stones 16:41 into bread... " And Jesus refers to Deuteronomy 16:45 which means "Not by the bread alone... " 16:50 He cites the text which Moses uses in his sermon 16:55 when talking about the people of Israel walking around 17:00 the desert eating manna and receiving the Torah. 17:05 And so Jesus - unlike Satan, who takes the statement 17:10 out of context - He uses the statement of the 17:14 Torah in their proper context 17:17 and He relies... If we... if we just often say: 17:21 "Oh, not by the bread alone" 17:23 we're not getting the whole picture. 17:25 The whole picture we have to go back to the book of Deuteronomy. 17:29 We have to read what Moses is speaking and then we see 17:33 the whole depth of what Jesus is trying to say. 17:39 And in every instance Satan would use 17:44 some test from a temptation because for example 17:48 he would raise Him on top of the temple wall 17:54 and he would quote to Him from Psalm 90. Right. 17:59 You know... yeah, that's the Bible. 18:01 But Jesus always goes back. And He again goes back 18:07 to Deuteronomy and again speaks: "Thou shalt not 18:11 put the Lord your God to tempt. " 18:14 That's again the same story. 18:16 He goes back again to the same story. 18:19 And there is a very good idea that Matthew 18:25 has why he presents it that way. 18:28 Because in Matthew's composition of the gospel 18:31 Jesus is repeating the exodus from Egypt. 18:36 When people of Israel... whenever they walk through the 18:40 desert... they had their failure. Now Jesus does it over. 18:45 So Jesus walked through the water of Jordan 18:48 imitating the Red Sea. 18:51 Then the next thing He is in the desert. 18:53 And then He goes through trials. 18:56 But unlike people of Israel - they fell under pressure - 19:00 Jesus now does it over and in a sense... 19:03 does it right... Yeah! Does it right. Yeah, praise God! 19:06 You know, it's so interesting. Sometimes I've been in some 19:08 public places where a guy will have like a dark blonde beard 19:13 and some long blonde hair and somebody will walk up 19:15 to this guy and say: "You look so... 19:17 Has anybody ever told you that you look like Jesus? " 19:21 He'd get hired. You know, play Jesus in a play or theater 19:24 or something. And I'll walk up to him and I'll say: 19:26 "Well actually most likely Jesus probably had 19:32 curly dark brown or black hair and brown eyes. " 19:35 Dark complexion. "Dark complexion, olive skin. " 19:38 And I've heard people like: "Oh, no way. " 19:40 You know, when we look back in history, when would you say 19:43 Jesus got stripped of His "Jewishness" so to speak? 19:46 'Cause we just... Some people are just surprised and shocked 19:49 when they really hear and learn about how Jewish 19:52 Jesus really was. The major problems begin to occur 19:57 right after the death of the apostles. 20:00 Right after destruction of the temple 20:04 and there was another bad event of a big war between... 20:09 in Judea - second Judean war - when there was rebellion 20:13 against Romans raised by the man named Bar Kokhba. 20:18 And this is what actually provoked 20:23 a strong, strong anti-Jewish sentiment 20:27 in the entire Roman Empire. Ummm. 20:29 And what happened: Romans started to mock 20:35 Jews in every possible way including religious mockery. 20:40 They produced - we have the documents - 20:42 where they produced theatrical plays - comedies - 20:47 that would mock Sabbath particularly. 20:51 For example, they would have a camel on the stage 20:54 and they would have him clothed in sackcloth. 20:59 And they say: "Why is he in sackcloth? " 21:02 "Because it's a Jewish camel and it's the Sabbath 21:05 and the Jew doesn't feed the camel 21:07 so the camel is in mourning. " 21:09 And so everybody... the whole audience 21:12 laughs, roars in laughter. That's been documented. 21:15 And so this mockery leads Christians 21:20 who are Judea Christians, many of whom 21:23 joined from the other nations, joined the Judea Christians. 21:27 It leads them to actually push away from the Jewish roots. 21:32 And that's where the problem begins. 21:35 And it's something that progresses on. 21:36 I want to just jump back because we've only got 21:39 just a few minutes left and then Rachel's going to bless us 21:43 with a song. You know, one of the passages 21:46 that Jesus states that I always found very interesting 21:49 when He makes this comment: "Not one jot or tittle will pass 21:52 away. " Sasha, just real briefly what is a jot and a tittle? 21:56 What exactly is that because I know that's not correct. 21:58 Yeah, jot is the Hebrew letter yodh which looks 22:04 like an apostrophe. 22:05 And a tittle is another letter which can be confused. 22:11 It's a letter yodh which you actually draw a little line. 22:14 It's like a stroke. So I guess what He's saying is 22:18 that the letters that even seem to be the least, 22:21 the most nominal of the letters on the scroll, 22:24 even those smallest letters aren't going to pass away. 22:28 What Jesus is talking He is talking about 22:32 the meticulousness of the study of the Torah 22:35 in such a way that when you write these letters 22:39 He will teach you to write it and read it and understand it 22:43 in such a way that you will not confuse that. 22:46 So notice basically in modern English it would sound 22:49 "Not a single word - not a single statement - 22:54 will be confused in My sight. " 22:56 So in other words then to think that in any way that 22:58 Jesus ever spoke against... in any way tried to eliminate 23:04 what we know as Mosaic law, Torah, the Old Testament - 23:07 or His own heritage - right - is absolutely false. 23:10 So I'd love to continue this but Rachel, we want to 23:12 hear from you. You have a song for us today. 23:13 What are you going to sing? Yes me Hoo. 23:15 Yes me Hoo. What does Yes me Hoo mean? 23:17 Yes me Hoo means rejoice. 23:20 Those who keep the Sabbath and call it the delight 23:25 will rejoice in the Lord's kingdom. OK, so Rachel 23:30 and Martin is back with us. Thank you, brother. 23:34 And let's hear this song. 26:34 Wonderful! Rachel, what an awesome song. 26:38 The Sabbath is a beautiful thing to sing about. 26:40 Oh man! That's great. I'd like to sing more. 26:42 That was really good. Well, we want to thank you 26:45 once again for joining us on this program. 26:49 You know, I think it's such an important thing, Rachel, 26:52 that as we draw closer to Jesus we really strive to really 26:55 understand exactly who He is - that's right - in the context 26:59 of all that He was. So we want to thank you once again 27:02 for joining us on Back To Our Roots. 27:04 Rachel, what a pleasure it is to do this with you. 27:08 We want to thank Sasha and Martin again for being with us. 27:12 And we want to thank you most of all. 27:14 We pray that as we bring the Hebraic roots to you 27:19 that God is going to draw you 27:21 even closer and closer to our Messiah 27:24 because that's what it's all about. That's right! 27:26 So I'd like to close today with the Aaronic blessing. 27:31 And I've been saying it to you. 27:32 I'm going to do it in English and Hebrew. 27:34 May the Lord bless you. May He keep you. 27:36 May the Lord make His face to shine upon you 27:38 and be gracious to you. May the Lord lift His 27:40 countenance upon you and bring you His peace. |
Revised 2022-01-08