Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Tom & Vicki Mann
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR00073B
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00:11 Welcome back, I'm going to introduce you to Tom and Vicki,
00:13 but before we go there Vicki I would like to say couple more 00:16 things about what you said on the last segment. 00:18 The importance of any relationship as it ends whether 00:25 divorce, or death, or whatever, just as a relationship ends is 00:31 to do the healing first is really important. 00:34 You did a lot of healing with pastors, with counselors, 00:37 looking at those feelings of worthlessness, what did I do 00:41 right, what did I do wrong, what things did I carry into 00:44 that relationship that was a problem. 00:47 It looks like you've covered a lot of that. 00:49 I want to encourage people, if you are going through 00:53 that in your own life, don't jump into another 00:55 relationship, even though I'm an relationship addict. 00:59 So to me what I realize in my healing and recovery, 01:04 is I did not know how to be outside of that. 01:06 If you are like that find some one around you to teach you 01:11 how to stand on your own. 01:12 When you stand on your own and get that recovery work 01:15 done, you can bring so much into a relationship 01:18 and it is amazing. 01:19 So I'm glad that you shared that with us, thank you. 01:22 I would like to know how you guys met? 01:26 How did you and Tom met? 01:29 Will actually we met at a contemporary 01:30 Christian music concert. 01:32 I was driving around the square with my mother and I saw 01:35 it was going to be on that evening, this was like two 01:38 hours before the concert started. 01:40 I said to my mother, I wanted to go to that and I 01:43 completely forgot about it and didn't even get a ticket. 01:46 My mother said I'm not interested in that kind of thing 01:49 at all, so you will have go by yourself. 01:51 It was just like the Holy Spirit spoke to me, I said you 01:54 know what mom, I really feel like I'm supposed to go, 01:56 alone that's okay, I'll go by myself. 01:59 I got home and started calling around and there was a ticket 02:03 outlet there, locally and I called them. 02:05 The gal put me on hold to go and check and see if they 02:07 had tickets, she came back and said you know what? 02:10 They have one ticket left. - No way! 02:12 By this time it was an hour before the concert and I said 02:16 that is my ticket, and I gave her my name. 02:18 I said please hold it for me. 02:20 I went straight over there and got that ticket. 02:23 Later on I found out that actually, before the concert, 02:28 they will go around to different venues and if 02:31 there are any tickets left, they will pick them back up. 02:33 So it's a miracle if they had that ticket there. 02:37 So I got that ticket, I've got there a little bit before 02:41 the concert began, I hadn't been to that particular venue 02:45 before so I was asking where general seating and reserved 02:50 seating the difference, because here's my ticket, it was general 02:53 The man was pointing out to me and said if you go right 02:56 up there that is your general seating. 02:59 I was following his hand and where he was pointing is 03:04 where he was sitting. 03:07 - God is too fun! - So when I got there he smiled at me. 03:10 I thought well he looks friendly. 03:13 I wasn't looking for a date or boyfriend or anything but 03:16 I thought he doesn't look like somebody that would bite 03:18 my head off if I asked is this seat taken. 03:20 He does look like a friendly person. 03:22 So I asked him if the seat on the end was taken and that 03:25 would have put three seats in between myself and him. 03:29 He said I'm sorry all those seats are taken. 03:32 He said I'm actually saving them for friends. 03:34 I thought oh, but then he said, but actually this seat right 03:38 here is not taken, beside him on the other side. 03:41 He said if you would sit here I would be delighted. 03:44 And I thought oh he is so nice, so I took that seat. 03:48 We had a few minutes before the concert started so we 03:51 introduce yourselves and became a little bit acquainted. 03:54 I was reading, what book was I reading? 04:00 'A Purpose Driven Life', I was reading A Purpose Driven 04:02 Life and he said, oh I have read that book and we started 04:05 talking about it and one thing led to another. 04:07 He found out that I was divorced, I found that he was 04:09 divorced and we were comparing notes. 04:12 We found out a lot of the feelings that we had been 04:15 through were very much the same. 04:17 So we had some common ground. 04:20 How we re-connected with God and re-established our relationship 04:25 with the Lord and had actually grown closer to the Lord 04:27 as a result of the things that we had been through. 04:29 So by the time the concert started I was thinking, wow, 04:32 what a cool person. 04:35 So as you are sitting there and she's sharing freely, 04:39 or openly about this divorce, what were you thinking? 04:43 I had many years before that been through it all. 04:47 Well part of a when, she was sitting next to me I thought, 04:51 wow, one of it was, I don't know how to get this other 04:55 than the story, part my story was two weeks before that 04:59 a Pastor friend of mine, I had been helping him in this 05:03 little small church. 05:05 He was a Pentecost Pastor and it was totally different 05:08 for me and he called me out in the middle church and 05:11 stopped his church and said, pointing to these ladies 05:13 and said write this down. 05:15 The Lord wants me to tell you something, he's my friend. 05:17 I'm like okay oh boy what is he going to say? 05:20 You have a wife and she's coming quickly and the 05:22 Lord wants you to know that. 05:23 When you are doing what you are supposed to be doing she 05:24 is going to come, and he smiled at me. 05:26 Afterwards I said, what was that? 05:29 I said are you serious, he said I'm sorry the Lord 05:31 impressed me to tell you that, and he was my friend. 05:34 This was like a week before I met her. 05:38 Ironically I started working back in radio that night. 05:41 I was not there actually just with friends, I was there 05:44 because I had announced that night, I had just started 05:46 working back in radio and television again. 05:48 I was up there announcing that night and introducing this 05:51 group and she just happened to come sit next to me. 05:53 Then I was sitting there and we were comparing notes and 05:55 I was going, no, I don't think so. 05:58 I had this been dating somewhat earlier to that and had 06:01 come to the point that that relationship was ending. 06:05 I thought, no this is not that easy, I wasn't sure, but 06:10 I noticed that she this woman that was really growing in the 06:14 Lord, and I was at this point as well. 06:16 I have been through quite a lot before that. 06:19 - talk about, before we get to this, talk about, 06:22 we know what Vicki's gone through because she shared with 06:26 us, what was your divorced like? 06:28 Was it similar as far as your healing? 06:31 What did that look like? 06:32 Mine was quite a long process, and to tell a little 06:36 of the background, I was one, I guess you could say, 06:39 that was just shocked. 06:41 I had a wife that just decided to leave. 06:42 - you thought everything was right? 06:45 Oh I did, and again a typical man thing to be honest with 06:47 you, I look back on it now and think that there was some 06:49 things she was crying out for help and I didn't see it. 06:52 I was the one that was left, I was the one that went 06:55 counseling alone for a whole year. 06:57 It was so bad for me where I I had gone through, at that 07:00 time, I owned 3 companies, lost the 3 companies, 07:05 was losing my home, and having to share custody with my 07:08 kids, which devastated me. 07:09 I was being accused on TV of taking money from clients and 07:13 not performing services, lawsuits and everything else. 07:16 I was at the point where, even after going to counseling, 07:20 I remember my first wife said she wanted to get back with 07:24 me, and then a week later I get divorce papers. 07:25 I was devastated and to the point, that one particular 07:30 day I decided I was going to find a gun and shoot myself, 07:34 and I was planning the whole thing out. 07:36 While I was getting ready to actually go in to do this 07:40 stuff, I saw no hope. 07:42 Here's the amazing thing, I was a believer, I knew, 07:46 and before that you could say I had a charmed life. 07:49 I had, radio, television, grew up in a Christian home, 07:52 everything you can imagine. 07:53 I didn't drink, I didn't smoke or have any of those 07:56 issues, quote "every one else", my family is good. 08:00 And my family was good. 08:01 A pillar of the church, taught, was on everything, 08:05 look at Tom, whoa, people would say that. 08:08 This took place so quickly, in fact the point I left 08:11 the church I was in on the advice of my good friend, 08:15 who was a Pastor. 08:16 He said you actually need to leave, and it was the best 08:19 advice I ever had, because people here can't believe your 08:22 wife would have left you, you must've done something wrong? 08:25 It sounds like the tornado that Vicki was talking about. 08:28 It was an emotional tornado for you, you've got slammed. 08:31 - I got slammed and the day is amazing, the day I was trying, 08:35 the first time I wanted to end my life. 08:37 Right when I was planning to do this someone knocked 08:40 at my door, my dad shows up in the middle the day. 08:43 We started talking and I was telling him everything 08:45 that was going on. 08:46 I think I even made the words I don't see any hope, 08:48 I don't see anything. 08:49 He looked at me and said you're not, out of his mouth 08:51 these words, you're not trying to hurt yourself are you? 08:53 I didn't want to say yes. 08:55 He very clearly said you know you have two kids, they 09:00 need their dad so bad, this is just stuff you're losing. 09:06 You can start all over again. 09:08 I was raised in a Christian tradition where, this is what 09:12 devastated me too, if you get divorced you can no longer 09:16 serve God, it's out the window. 09:18 - a lot of people believe that. 09:20 They believe it and I was believing it too until I had 09:23 a very wise Christian woman pull me aside, an incredible woman 09:29 that pulled me aside, she was an older lady. 09:31 She said to me, you know Tom, He is going to take this 09:34 and use this for His glory and we are praying that will 09:38 happen in your life. 09:39 Well it was several years, I went back into television, 09:42 I had to go back to work. 09:43 That sounds funny that I had to go back to work in a 09:46 different way, getting back in TV and getting back in 09:49 radio, and I had gotten to the point where I just didn't 09:52 want to ever do that again. 09:53 I started dating someone up here in Southern Illinois. 09:57 and I would come up here to help and go to her church. 10:00 I remember that I was praying during that time, it was 10:04 a whole cycle for me, where again a man's self worth is 10:08 found in his vocation and in those things that are very 10:12 important to men, all of a sudden, it was stripped from me. 10:15 I was out working and actually got to the point where 10:18 I was in between jobs, I was leaving the television 10:20 station because of being a single dad and I couldn't work 10:24 night side, I couldn't continue doing that. 10:26 During that time I worked with networks and all these 10:30 things when I was in my 20s and will go wow, neat. 10:33 It just wasn't satisfying at all, none of it was. 10:37 I just thought I want to get rid of all this. 10:40 I remember I had an accident up here helping a lady that 10:44 I was dating at the time, I had come up here to visit. 10:48 She was a single mom and I cut her yard and got my foot 10:50 caught underneath the lawnmower and got stuck here. 10:53 I was in between insurance and I couldn't go anywhere. 10:56 I was stuck here for several weeks. 10:57 I was going to say, somebody could've just lifted 10:59 the lawnmower up. 11:00 - seriously, but these little things just kept happening. 11:04 More than once, there was another time I wanted to end my 11:08 life during that time. 11:09 I was about to lose my house and I remember my kids were 11:13 leaving and the hardest time for me as a dad was, I used 11:18 to go in and spend time with my kids at night. 11:20 Pray with them and all these things, 11:21 it was ripped from me. 11:24 It was pulled away and I remember on Sunday nights they 11:27 would leave and it was the hardest night for me. 11:30 I just remember one Sunday evening, I just thought 11:33 I can't take this pain anymore. 11:36 My kids had to go home to be with their mom and I decided 11:38 I can't take it anymore. 11:39 So I remember that I thought about that and was thinking- 11:42 - I think for a lot of people, that a father is so use 11:45 to being able to hold and love and kiss on their children 11:49 and now they are not even able to live in the same house. 11:52 No they're not and that was devastating, that was harder 11:57 for me at that point then the divorce and the absence of 12:01 the wife, and the waiting and it didn't happen. 12:04 I was going to counseling, which really helped me during 12:07 that time, it was an incredible Christian man, 12:09 a wonderful guy and he began dealing with me, issues with 12:12 me, he didn't focus on her. 12:14 It was like wait a minute, and reminding me because I was 12:18 going through these suicidal thoughts. 12:20 I know he knew that but that night right after that 12:24 happened my kids had written post-it notes on the door and 12:27 when I was literally thinking about doing it again I had 12:30 shut the door to the bedroom and there was post-it note 12:32 that said dad, I love you very much and the other one 12:35 said dad, I miss you, wish I were here. 12:38 It just stopped me and I finally started realizing 12:42 something was there and got where it took a long process, 12:46 but I went through all that and finally relocated up here. 12:49 I really didn't want... - were you angry at her? 12:54 Yes I was and it grew, here's the thing it grew. 12:58 At that point I was so hurt I couldn't feel. 13:02 In fact during that process I got where 13:05 I couldn't do my job. 13:08 I couldn't edit, I'm very creative but I could even think 13:12 creatively, I forgot how to edit, I forgot how to shoot 13:15 with the camera, I forgot how to voice, I do voice for 13:19 a living and speak on the air. 13:20 Those skills started leaving me, it was like something was 13:23 wrong with me and I couldn't figure out what it was. 13:26 You're very essence was leaking out, like I totally 13:29 don't have it, wow. 13:30 So I decided I'm not going to do radio and television 13:34 again, I basically put my hand up one day and said, 13:37 God if you want me to do that ever again, You are going 13:41 to have to step down and show me because I'm not doing it. 13:44 - I love it, I love it because you are talking to God. 13:48 Listen here. - through all this I knew there was a 13:52 relationship with Him and to be honest with you, at this 13:56 point when I tell people this. 13:57 The thing that spoke to me was music, I couldn't listen 13:59 to sermons and for the first time in my life I couldn't 14:02 take meat I had to have milk. 14:03 It was a total different thing where I learned, I guess 14:07 you could say to depend upon, it was the thing where I 14:10 needed my Heavenly Father. 14:11 I needed, I didn't need the superficial Christian. 14:15 I didn't need the superficial trappings, I needed to be 14:18 cared for, I had never been to that point in my life. 14:23 - I'm dying here. - I'm dying here and You need to 14:26 hold me, in fact I lost everything. 14:29 So much so that I had to go back to live with my parents. 14:32 Here I am a 40-year-old guy and had three companies and 14:35 was making all the money I wanted. 14:37 I had radio and television and I had to come, my dad 14:39 which was great, they came and took care of me for a 14:42 long time, my dad had to buy me a car. 14:43 I had no car, I had no way, I had nothing, zip zilch 14:48 for a while, that was difficult. 14:51 But as we go forward, another thing about that prayer 14:56 I prayed, I went to visit this church one time and this 14:59 is where I met this first Pastor that became my friend. 15:02 He too had been through a divorce, and he was in a similar 15:06 situation and had actually been dethroned as a Pastor 15:08 of a church because he was divorced. 15:11 Just because something happened in his marriage. 15:12 Sometimes you want a raise your hand, but I did do it. 15:17 I didn't even want it. 15:18 I met this guy and he was from New York and I was from 15:22 Memphis, Tennessee, polar opposites, in fact our theology 15:26 was totally different. 15:27 We had this thing they came together and I met him one 15:30 night when I went to a church service and they were 15:34 praying over people. 15:35 I used to go to this one church just to be prayed for. 15:37 I had never been to that point where I wanted people 15:39 to pray for me and that was it. 15:41 I was to that point and needed somebody to say was 15:43 going to be okay. 15:44 - I hope that everybody watching heard that. 15:46 If you get to that point... 15:49 - you just have to put your hand on someone. 15:50 That is true, if you are on the end where you see someone 15:54 and you know, just pray for them, put your hand on them, 15:57 give them a hug. 15:59 - it's nothing, you don't even have to say magic words. 16:01 It's just I need someone to touch me. 16:04 If somebody to touch me, that is so true. 16:06 By the way, men need that too, bad. 16:09 They don't know how to ask for which is worse. 16:12 Women know how to ask for it more. 16:14 - I know as a man, I finally figured out it is very hard, 16:17 I think, for men to understand their feelings. 16:19 You have these horrible hurts and you can't explain it. 16:23 I know now because I have a wife that's great with that 16:26 and I have three grown daughters, so I really know. 16:30 It's awesome, to know their feelings, but sometimes I find 16:35 myself, sometimes as men we do have feelings but it is 16:40 like we can't get in touch with them. 16:41 We can't, it's like ah, I don't feel bad. 16:45 You don't know what they are or how to define them. 16:48 How do you explain them? 16:50 Back to that, one night I'm at this church service and 16:54 about to walk out the door because I had enough and 16:58 I was going to go back and work in the studio 17:01 I had started working in. 17:02 I said I guess God doesn't have anything for me here. 17:06 I started thinking that way and was like if You want me 17:10 to be in media again, this thing came up in my head, 17:13 let me know and all the sudden this Pastor at the front 17:17 of the church stopped and said, you in the Orange. 17:19 I looked around and of course it was me, I had this 17:22 bright orange shirt on. 17:23 I was walking out to leave and he said, God has a great 17:27 anointing in your life and He wants you to know. 17:30 He is going to use you in radio and television, and he 17:34 said you have been in that but for some reason something 17:39 has happened and he went into this other detail. 17:41 He said you are going to be involved in networks and will 17:45 be behind the camera and in front of the camera. 17:47 God wants you to know that so you don't forget what your 17:51 calling and where you are suppose to be. 17:52 This is right after it was in my head. 17:54 - this is when you were discouraged. 17:55 - totally and I had just said that as I was walking out 17:57 this door, you want me to be in radio and television, 18:00 I'm getting a job and started thinking of all these other 18:02 vocations and then this guy stops and says this. 18:05 I meet him later and he was like, I'm sorry he said, 18:08 but I felt so impressed to tell that of the Lord in front 18:11 of everyone, tell me why. 18:12 I told him what had happened. 18:14 He said I don't know what's going to take place but God 18:16 wants you to do that so move forward. 18:19 Several years before I had actually turned down a very 18:21 big job to work at a Christian television network, 18:24 for some reason I felt the Lord didn't want me to do that. 18:26 Right after that I took a job with a friend of mine at a 18:29 local TV affiliate here, the ABC station said, 18:32 would you come work? 18:34 I said yeah, what have you got? 18:36 He said we only have minimum wage jobs, would you take it? 18:39 I started at the bottom again and immediately they made 18:43 a job for me and all these things. 18:44 I was going on, a few months before I had met Vicki. 18:47 I had kind of gotten to a point of recovering, where I had 18:52 gone - were you can breathe again, 18:53 - where I can breathe again. 18:54 I finally started a relationship and started dating and got 18:59 stuck here and all kinds of things like that. 19:01 She knew more what that other person was like, this isn't 19:06 going to work out more than I did. 19:07 It just became a thing where I resigned, okay Lord 19:12 you know I will be a dad and do whatever you want me to 19:16 do and I will be happy. 19:18 I don't have to get married again, I had gotten to that 19:20 point where it is okay. 19:23 If You want me to be single, I'll be single. 19:25 First of all my kids, I prayed that they would come back. 19:30 During that time too I started praying for justice. 19:33 I think I mentioned this to you. 19:34 Justice because what had happened to me, I was the one 19:37 that was left, I was the one that was abandoned, I was the 19:40 one - that was blindsided - was blindsided. 19:43 I felt so, there is a humiliation to it but also just, 19:48 if the word was the victim syndrome, during that time 19:54 I had to work through some anger. 19:56 Big-time anger, and even though you can be the one who 20:01 might be called the victim, I got were I hated and 20:06 the word was angry. 20:08 Being hurt turned to anger, it is part of the process, 20:11 it is the grieving process. 20:13 I like to say divorce, you know why God says I hate 20:17 divorce, it is not the people, we know that. 20:20 It is because it rips the fiber of the family, it rips, 20:25 the best term is rips your guts out as an individual. 20:28 It destroys the family, it destroys the kids and it is 20:32 a rippling effect for your whole family. 20:34 It is not just you personally. 20:36 - Usually even the church. - and the church. 20:38 It really does and I became to understand that. 20:40 People go through it, it is very hard and my opinion was 20:45 it is like going through death, but the corpse is still 20:49 there and they are still yelling at you. 20:50 That is really the way I felt, but I had to work through 20:56 that and I got angry to be honest with you. 20:57 I understand what it means when the Bible says angry and 21:00 sin not, angry to the point of hatred and murder. 21:05 - David said, David said in the Psalms, I would like to 21:08 bash their teeth in, when he expressed his anger, 21:12 it was really intense stuff. 21:13 I felt that way, and I would even say those things to God. 21:18 Give me justice, she has to pay, I didn't deserve this. 21:23 But then, God used that to start looking at Tom. 21:29 And more of that has come to me over the past few years, 21:31 that wait just a moment. 21:33 You can put the list of things that she did and people 21:36 will go oh yes, oh yes, oh yes but wait Tom there is 21:39 murder in your heart. 21:41 Not just hatred, there is murder in your heart. 21:43 Sin is sin, is sin, and you may be the quote "innocent one", 21:47 but how is it going to be your response? 21:51 Is it going to be Mine in this or not? 21:54 I think that was rolling through me and I had gotten to 21:58 the point where I kind of got over the hatred part. 22:01 Still a little angry, would love to stir things up, 22:05 but I wanted justice. 22:06 During that time I had gotten to the point where she had, 22:10 hers was on the fast track, I was on the slow track. 22:15 I think I had more to learn because I was one of those 22:19 individuals who hadn't been forgiven of a lot because 22:23 I hadn't done a lot. 22:24 Where the one who loves much, the one who has been 22:28 forgiven, the whole principle is if you have been forgiven 22:32 a lot, you love and forgive a lot yourself. 22:35 I hadn't been one of those individuals. 22:38 I could say was on the goody two shoes side where I think 22:42 it is a deeper thing and God had to deal with me. 22:46 So there is almost 3 to 4 years between that time, 22:50 but I gotten were I was ready. 22:54 - Amen, but that's huge though, isn't that huge because 22:57 I think when you are on that side you don't see a lot of 23:01 your own stuff and it is really tough to be a place where 23:04 you surrender because you say, surrender what? 23:07 It takes God a while to start showing you 23:09 - your true colors. - yeah, yeah and it is really tough 23:15 for people who have a lot of junk is real easy. 23:17 We look at ourselves and think, oh yeah I have got, 23:20 I'll give you this plus let me go get my suitcase because 23:23 I have more stuff. 23:24 Oh yeah, for a while I couldn't see anything. 23:27 Then I finally started realizing that God had a plan. 23:34 I had no clue what that plan was, but as I began to 23:42 re-establish and I guess you could say as a man I got back 23:45 where my confidence came back and I began working at what 23:48 I was good at. 23:49 I took it a step at a time until I really decided, okay 23:52 Lord, what ever You want. 23:54 So about that time it is when I began seeking all this. 23:58 In the middle of that I was that this little bitty church 24:02 and when my Pastor friend was gone I was a substitute 24:06 Pastor off and on. 24:07 I would do a lot of work, so it was a small thing. 24:10 I came from these huge churches and all these huge things 24:12 and I was in this little small town, in this little small 24:14 TV station, in this little small radio station, 24:16 and everything was 180, scaled down. 24:19 That was in this little small church with just a few 24:22 people and that was when that one week end that this Pastor 24:26 friend I got to know said, I was like, do what? 24:29 What are you saying again? 24:30 He was like you're going to meet your wife, and I thought 24:32 no I don't believe that stuff. 24:35 God doesn't work miracles, I didn't really believe that. 24:38 To be honest with you, I'm sorry the Canon was closed and 24:42 Scripture and I'm not just supposed to sit and wait. 24:45 That was my thinking and I knew him. 24:49 I knew he had done some things, but I did not know what 24:52 was about to come and then that night we met. 24:56 It was amazing, because I knew when she said she had the 25:01 last ticket, she said, I got it. 25:03 Well I knew they picked those things up earlier and I 25:05 knew that was an impossibility because they were all 25:08 picked up, but you got one. 25:10 So we started comparing notes and I think we even went to 25:15 eat and we just started connect after that. 25:19 You could probably go a little further with it, you know 25:22 all the, she knows all the details. 25:24 - women know all the details, even now a concert is over, 25:29 and you guys are eating, was there a sense that God is 25:34 doing something, that God is involved in this. 25:37 Did you guys get that sense? 25:38 Oh yeah I did, I didn't know again, me I thought she, 25:42 and I originally thought maybe I could help her because 25:45 she had been divorced less time than I had. 25:47 I actually gave her a phone number and said if I can do 25:51 anything, you know, here's my number, you need help, 25:56 call me, call me. 25:57 We did that, funny that night we stayed until one or two 26:01 o'clock in the morning and I had to be working television 26:04 news at 3 a. m. 26:07 - you could tell he liked you. - yeah! 26:11 We started trying to leave about 10 o'clock, I put my 26:13 purse all my shoulder and he said, I'm going to get the 26:16 bill and I said, you don't have to. 26:18 He said yeah I will. 26:19 He starts to lean over in his chair and I moved over my 26:22 chair and the next three hours went like that. 26:26 We sat there like that on the edge of our chairs for three 26:30 hours, time went by quickly. 26:32 - that is funny. 26:33 I just remember right after, tell the rest of the, 26:36 how it happened after that because I was, a relationship 26:40 was in ending for me and... 26:41 Tell a little bit about it, I went to this church and was 26:45 praying with friends first. 26:47 It was a fast track and we will tell you that in a moment. 26:51 I guess really the first thing was I ran into you a couple 26:56 days after that, didn't I? 26:57 We ran into each other again and then after that my mom 27:02 had some problems with her VCR. 27:05 He told me he worked in television, or TV. 27:08 He didn't tell me what he did in TV. 27:11 - Could tell me how to turn the VCR on! Could you come over? 27:16 Exactly, that is what he said, it's not exactly what I'd 27:20 do, but I would be happy to take a look at it. 27:25 So he came over and took a look at my mom's VCR. 27:27 It wasn't able to fix the VCR but we got to talk again. 27:32 After that I think you start stopping by pretty much every 27:35 evening, when he would get off work he would stop by for 27:38 an hour or two and we started actually bringing the Bible 27:42 out and started studying together. 27:44 We started studying the Bible together and started 27:46 praying together, that really. 27:48 That really blew my mind away and the other thing I 27:50 learned about, this was a neat thing, I went there and 27:53 she had, we told each other stories and all the details we 27:55 started sharing all the details. 27:57 The hurts of everything and I remember she had this desk, 28:00 and on the desk she had all these post-it notes and they 28:04 were Bible verses, things they had to do with, I guess you 28:07 could say, reminding her who she was in Christ. 28:10 What God would do and it really had an impression on me. 28:17 I was looking like what is she studying, wow! 28:20 Then we could pray so easy together. 28:23 She was very receptive and that blew my mind away. 28:26 I had never really experienced that to that kind of level. 28:29 - I hadn't either. - we pray together, it was like 28:32 thing, and here's the thing, I knew it. 28:36 It was like one day, I remember we were talking, 28:39 and I said you are the one and I knew it. 28:42 I remember I said that, it was like she is the one. 28:47 That's the one, Lord she is the one isn't she? 28:51 Wait a minute, do you know what is really interesting? 28:54 When you say she is the one, is all the work God did with 28:57 you guys personally, with your relationship with Him, 29:00 your healing from all those deep hurts that really opens 29:02 you up for this love relationship to happen. 29:05 We knew it, I have to say this to preface about what 29:10 I'm going to say, we got married within a month. 29:13 Well let me say this other first, - within a month? 29:16 I don't encourage that with everyone, but we knew. 29:19 It was just this incredible thing and we knew, 29:22 within a month after we met we were married and it has, 29:27 just been absolutely amazing. 29:29 - you have adult children, both of you so how did that 29:32 workout because usually people have these horror stories. 29:35 The first time they met, it was like they had been 29:38 together their whole lives. 29:39 We couldn't believe that - it was absolutely amazing. 29:42 One other thing we made very clear, I guess we talked 29:44 about this, we don't have stepchildren. 29:47 I do not believe in stepchildren, I believe that God 29:52 gave me two daughters I never knew. 29:54 You have to go into that, we have four kids. 29:59 I may have to explain that this is my stepdaughter, 30:02 but the we just have this attitude, we have four. 30:06 We have three daughters and one son and that 30:10 is the way it is. 30:12 You go into that with this mindset, so I think when you 30:14 hold it up before the Lord and literally claim that, 30:18 because I see them as gifts and amazing miracles with 30:21 our kids, the relationships with them. 30:26 She has things that my two needed, I have things that 30:32 her two needed, is that correct? 30:34 God has blessed in all those ways. 30:37 What is interesting is, when I hear you guys speak, 30:41 is what the devil meant to destroy both of you with, 30:45 God said you got to trust Me and stay in relationship 30:49 with Me, do your recovery work and I will bless you. 30:54 I think we forget to do that when we are really deeply 30:57 wounded, especially relationships, we forget to come 31:00 around side someone and tell them to stand up, 31:02 keep focused, this is not meant for your destruction. 31:07 God is not like that. 31:09 We are quick to jump in an out of relationships and 31:12 God says I am not like that. 31:14 I'm going to open up for questions, because I know there 31:16 are people at the café who have listen to this. 31:18 Divorce is so, I hate to say commonplace, but it really 31:23 is commonplace so I would just say is there anybody that 31:27 has a question or would like to ask a question? 31:31 Okay Patrice. - Hi I'm Patrice from Lansdale and my 31:35 question to you comes from a very deep personal side. 31:39 The first thing is, as someone who about two years ago 31:43 had to make a decision to put divorce on the table 31:48 or take it off. 31:49 My husband and I decided to take it off the table and 31:52 to seek counseling and to do some real deep healing. 31:57 There were some very sensitive issues that could have 32:01 devastated our family. 32:02 One of the things I have to say that I admire is in the 32:06 asking of forgiveness and realize what the enemy meant 32:10 for bad, God will turn around and make it for good. 32:13 I do believe that the Bible talks about generational 32:16 curses and there are aspects of that, we have to be 32:19 very careful what we pass onto our children, 32:20 when they are young or even an adult. 32:22 My question to you is this, what have you learned as 32:26 far as forgiveness has gone, as well as passing on that element 32:30 of forgiveness with your children to their parents 32:33 were no longer in their lives? 32:35 - Wow, that's heavy. - it is. 32:39 Part of the healing process is forgiving yourself and 32:43 forgiving your spouse, your ex spouse. 32:45 I was actually the person that left, when I was looking 32:50 back through the issues that we have suffered in our 32:54 marriage and it resulted in the ending of our marriage, 32:59 I saw a lot of things that I had done wrong and asked the 33:03 Lord for forgiveness and asked my 33:05 ex spouse for forgiveness. 33:07 I think it is important to do. 33:10 - so the next step, as you were talking about too, 33:12 about the children, people forget about those curses and 33:16 blessings that now I have given all this stuff to my 33:19 children, how do I allow them, or give them permission 33:23 not to receive it, not to take it on, to be able to 33:26 still love both spouses and to deal with the junk that they 33:29 saw in the marriage and not allow that 33:32 to devastate their relationships. 33:36 We try not to say bad things about our ex-spouses to the 33:40 kids, - there are some jokes, I have to admit. 33:43 But it's ones that they would do, but when it comes to 33:48 demeaning, you're right. 33:51 They love our ex-spouses too, 33:54 - we encourage a relationship with them as well. 33:57 Not just to allow the relationship to continue, 34:00 but yes encouraging the relationship to continue. 34:03 - at one time you had your ex - wife actually come out to 34:07 your house and hang out. 34:09 - that is part of an incredible forgiveness story which 34:11 I think we will share a little of that at the end. 34:16 The question is how, for me, it was really having to 34:20 forgive as a believer, let me put it in this way. 34:25 If I claim the name of Christ, and I want to take His 34:29 name in vain, how can I not forgive the way He forgave? 34:33 You have to come to that place, there is no excuse 34:36 for you not to. 34:37 Here is the other thing, in my relationship with Vicki 34:40 right now, and this is something I wish I knew before, 34:43 and I should have known that, it's forgiving. 34:45 You have to forgive every day. 34:47 - right you have to forgive them for what they may 34:51 have done to you too. 34:53 And that forgiveness thing is huge, neither one of us want 34:57 to do that, but when she said forgiving yourself for the 35:01 things you did, - maybe even forgiving God? 35:04 There is a huge thing in saying to God, why couldn't You 35:09 protect me on all that anger, so even the forgiveness to 35:13 God Himself as forgiving to our spouses so that doesn't 35:17 get a generational thing going where I give that 35:20 unforgiving spirit to my child. 35:22 And - letting our children know that we are not pro- 35:25 divorce, and we have let them know there are things we 35:28 could have done differently in our marriages that would 35:31 have been better if we had. 35:35 It shouldn't of been this by the way, because it happened 35:37 to us, this should not happen to you. 35:40 You should know to look for in a mate. - like? 35:45 Relationship first of all with the God of heaven, Lord this 35:49 is not about religion. 35:51 - are they spiritually in the right place themselves? 35:54 This thing is not about being in the same church or 35:57 what ever, is about first knowing Jesus Christ. 36:00 Second of all walking in the spirit and those other 36:04 things, look for the person growing, also that they come 36:08 to a clear point. 36:11 - someone you would enjoy spending the rest of your 36:13 life with too, that you share common interests with. 36:15 - that's huge. - that is huge Hollywood says that 36:18 opposites attract and there is a lot of things that can 36:21 come between you when you don't have a common interest. 36:25 When opposites attract, I love it because 36:27 she is different than I am, she is more detailed, 36:28 - I'm a little off the wall and creative. 36:30 - and we are a lot alike in other ways too. 36:32 We have those things that we hold together, and that 36:35 was from the beginning. 36:36 Okay are there any other questions? 36:38 By the way Patrice that was a great question. 36:40 How bout you Donna? - yes I have a question. 36:42 This usually takes a time to go through a process like 36:47 this and I am curious from the time, Tom your wife left 36:53 you, the time that you decided in your heart to forgive 36:57 her, and then Vicki from the time you left your husband 37:02 to the time where you had forgiveness in your heart. 37:06 How long was that for both of you? 37:09 I think was different for both of us. 37:12 For me it was probably three or four years were 37:15 I got to get to that point. 37:19 It's a continual process because I have to be honest 37:23 with you, this is one I think until probably the past 37:27 year or two that I have really totally resigned to it. 37:31 I don't think there is a magic number. 37:34 For me it was just a few months because two things. 37:37 One thing was that I have more difficulty forgiving 37:40 myself that I did forgiving my ex-spouse. 37:44 The other thing was that it turned out to be a blessing 37:49 because I wasn't able to find work right away. 37:51 I had moved back up here and was actually able to spend 37:55 about three months where the majority of my days were 38:00 spent in Bible study and prayer and going to my counseling 38:03 sessions so I got to work through, I had some really 38:06 intense time to work through issues. 38:09 I think that really made difference. 38:11 - Amen, Amen that is another good question. 38:15 I know Brad you had a question. 38:16 The question I have actually relates to Cheri and I in 38:19 that we came from different spiritual backgrounds. 38:22 She had an Adventist upbringing and I came from a Methodist 38:26 background, you spoke the fact that you came from two 38:29 different spiritual backgrounds. 38:31 Where are you guys now it how can you address that? 38:35 - that is a good question, and I have to say upbringing 38:38 I had no spiritual upbringing but came in to Adventism 38:41 after I came off the streets, because somebody is going to 38:44 say I just did know she had a spiritual background. 38:46 You each had spiritual backgrounds and I know that you 38:48 said you were studying together so part of that had 38:51 to be from that, and so talk about 38:54 how you came onto one page. 38:57 Not on everything, my prayer was that if it was God's 39:03 will for me to marry again, I would meet a man 39:06 who had a heart for Him and he was kind. 39:09 Tom met both those things are plus there were so much 39:14 more, but his background was different from mine. 39:18 You were at that time attending a 39:21 nondenominational church. 39:23 - I have been Baptist, I had been with 39:25 Church of God, a chameleon. 39:26 He had found a relationship with the Lord though and 39:31 we did agree on some issues like Sabbath. 39:34 - yeah that was something that was different, but 39:37 those things I had to work through more than she did. 39:40 My attitude was I was right and she was wrong. 39:44 - I love that! - I know but it's true, but the thing 39:47 was God brought a lot of things with her to me that 39:50 I had never heard and we began studying the Scriptures. 39:54 The first that we have to say was our relationship 39:57 with Christ was the focus. 39:59 How we had, I didn't even know that she went to a different 40:05 church, this did not come up at first. 40:07 She had said something about it, and I said wait just a 40:12 minute, my thing was the Holy Spirit is clearly working 40:17 in her life and I had prayed for a woman that would also 40:21 follow God and that I could pray with. 40:24 It was these things that were very uniting and then a little 40:28 period of time and we worked through that and I was the one 40:31 that actually ended up being an Adventist later. 40:35 I study in which she basically left that part to God. 40:39 But she was in a relationship. 40:41 - she is not afraid of that? 40:44 No! - what is interesting is that I could tell you are 40:46 from different places spiritually when you said people 40:48 were prophesying over you and that doesn't necessarily 40:51 happen in our churches much. 40:52 So I could tell you were from different places. 40:56 God is not really afraid of that stuff, He just says 40:59 at one time when I asked God it was funny. 41:02 God who are you working with and who is right and that 41:06 type of stuff, He said I'd make it really simple. 41:08 I just got this image from God, He said to get a mirror 41:12 and put it under their nose and of its steams up, 41:14 that is my child. 41:15 I thought, how fun is that! 41:18 He says I'm trying to bring everybody to a healing place, 41:21 I'm trying to bring everybody to the truth, especially after 41:24 divorce and major things like that is that you guys went 41:27 through, and we're going to take a break right now and 41:30 come back, but you went through some major hurts in 41:32 your life and the betrayals and having to adjust and then 41:36 lose everything, your jobs and it sounds like not just the 41:40 relationships but you got hit in a number 41:42 of areas and God had to reestablish who you are as a 41:45 person and then who you are as far as Him and His child 41:49 and then definitely who you are in a relationship again. 41:53 We are going ahead to take a break but I want you guys 41:57 to stay with me and we're going to talk 42:00 a little bit as the close this out on ultimately the 42:03 forgiveness, not only for yourself or for God, but for 42:07 your spouse and how did that look. 42:09 I know that you guys have a wonderful story there. 42:12 So stay with us we will be right back. 42:13 If you are hurting in a relationship in a divorce 42:18 setting like this, just know that God is not afraid 42:22 and will come right alongside of you. 42:24 Just be encouraged, we will be right back! |
Revised 2014-12-17