Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Pr. Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000003
00:09 If you are listening you know that
00:11 sexual, lesbian, homosexual issues
00:14 are now being discussed openly around the world.
00:17 They are being talked about in the court room,
00:19 they are being talked about in the media, on campuses,
00:22 even elementary school campuses.
00:24 They are being talked about in churches,
00:26 in homes, in human hearts
00:29 and its time for us to talk about them
00:31 as well next on Coming Out.
01:11 Welcome to part three of Coming Out.
01:13 My special guest today is Pastor Ron Woolsey.
01:17 He is a pastor of two churches in Arkansas.
01:20 He is also one of the cofounders
01:22 of the Coming Out Ministries.
01:24 And Ron, Pastor Ron, want to welcome you.
01:29 Here to North Idaho to be part of this special series.
01:32 It's a privilege to be here, thank you.
01:33 Well, thank you too, Ron.
01:35 As you know, my first guest was Wayne Blakely.
01:38 He has been out for five years.
01:42 My next guest was Mike Carducci and he's been out for 13 years
01:46 and understand that its been 22 years for you.
01:50 So you are really like the sage among us
01:54 that we are gonna look to you for a lot of wisdom.
01:57 Yes, they also referred to me as Moses.
01:59 Now I don't know why its
02:00 because of my chin or because of my age.
02:04 Well, I don't know but Ron, you've been through a lot.
02:06 We've known each other for quite a while
02:08 and we've got a lot to listen to you, to learn from you
02:12 and you are also the only one of the three
02:14 that has written a book.
02:16 Pastor Ron has a book it's called
02:18 "That Kind Can Never Change!
02:20 Can They...?"
02:22 And the subtitle there is, one man struggle to understand
02:25 and overcome his homosexuality.
02:29 And the name at the bottom is Victor J. Adamson
02:33 which is really not your real name,
02:36 it's a pen name.
02:37 Why did you pick that name?
02:39 Well, first of all I was advised by the publisher
02:42 who have actually published the book
02:44 to use a pen name for my protection.
02:46 They had an other author right on the same subject
02:49 to that is house burned to ground
02:53 and then when I was asked to come up with a name
02:56 I spent more time on the name than writing the book actually
02:59 because I wanted a message to be in the name.
03:01 And there is a definite message of salvation in the name.
03:05 And the subtitle of this program
03:09 is "Exploding the Gay Myth"
03:12 and that's really what your book attempts to do
03:15 and you see as many others see you life as an example
03:20 and it's a testimony of the power of God.
03:23 And we want to hear your story.
03:24 I've got my story but its not the time to tell it
03:27 we are here to hear your story
03:28 and understand that you grew up in a Christian home
03:32 and you made a series of choices
03:34 preparing for the ministry
03:36 and you eventually got married, had children
03:39 and then decided to exit that life
03:42 and to go into the gay lifestyle.
03:45 So tell us little bit about the background,
03:47 you know, fill us in on some of those details.
03:50 Well, it's true I made a lot of good choices.
03:52 I grew up as a very spiritual child
03:54 and a spiritual teenager.
03:57 I wanted to do right, I wanted to please,
04:00 I wanted to be accepted
04:02 and I chose for myself a Christian education.
04:06 I chose a Christian college,
04:08 I chose to be a student missionary,
04:12 I chose to study theology
04:14 and pre-med with the idea of being a medical missionary.
04:18 I chose to have a Christian wife
04:20 and I chose to have Christian babies.
04:22 But you could not convince me that I chose to be gay.
04:25 I finally just gave up this struggle
04:28 that I had been dealing with all of my life
04:30 and accepted being gay.
04:33 I did not at the time consider that to be a choice.
04:36 Okay, I'm just curios based upon the previous testimonies.
04:38 Do you attribute your feelings, your gay feelings
04:43 to have anything to do with your parents,
04:45 with your mother and your father
04:47 and you think it was just your genes
04:48 or you think it was your environment
04:50 or you know just give us a quick opinion.
04:53 You know, Steve, there are so many factors
04:55 that contribute to this issue
04:57 and many sin issues and addiction issues.
05:01 And there were factors in my life.
05:03 I didn't know why I was so different growing up
05:07 and no one knew I was.
05:09 I just had this mental struggle where I felt like
05:12 I was outside of the male community
05:14 of brothers and dad and so forth.
05:17 But looking back on it I've been able to connect dots.
05:21 I was sexually molested by a farmhand
05:23 when I was four-years-old,
05:25 never told a living soul about it.
05:27 And as a four-year-old child I'd now was trying to process
05:32 what is this, what's this all about?
05:34 I do know from that day forward
05:36 I had wild fantasies and imaginations.
05:39 My mind was filled with all of this
05:41 and it affected me by the time I was a teenager
05:44 where I would be learning about
05:47 you know, God's way of sexuality and so forth.
05:49 I already had ten years of head start in the wrong direction
05:53 but also I had an abusive--
05:57 my father initially was emotionally abusive
06:00 because he was trying to shame me
06:04 into overcoming bedwetting
06:06 which came after the molestation
06:10 and publicly humiliating me and shaming me
06:13 I grew up feeling unloved and unwanted and unequal
06:16 and a disappointment and a failure.
06:19 And so that was another contributing factor,
06:22 the sense of rejection
06:24 and but there are all kinds of factors
06:27 that play into this.
06:28 Sure and so by the time you were married
06:31 you had gone through years of struggling with this
06:34 but evidently you still were attracted to a woman
06:36 because you got married.
06:38 Well, that's an interesting concept
06:41 but it's not really true.
06:43 I decided that marriage would be solution.
06:47 Now I know that's laughable now
06:51 it is not the solution to anything.
06:53 In fact, marriage can be a real problem
06:55 if you are not going into marriage properly
06:57 in for the right reasons and with God's blessing.
07:00 But I just thought that my mind was
07:02 so sexually active that I thought
07:05 well, if I get married that will take care of it.
07:08 That was so foolish of me.
07:10 Well, I was naive and it didn't of course.
07:14 Very quickly I realized I made a terrible mistake
07:18 and my wife was unsuspecting.
07:20 She planned to be the wife of a minister or missionary
07:24 and she was a good Christian and of course,
07:26 she was terribly devastated
07:27 when I finally just gave up and fell into that.
07:31 But I had never talked to a living soul
07:33 about any of this.
07:35 I struggle with this in my mind all my life all alone.
07:40 And so people didn't pick up on it like with Mike's case?
07:43 He was made fun of in school but you were.
07:47 The kids didn't look at you and see,
07:49 you know, feminine characteristics?
07:51 There were some of them.
07:52 Well, it wasn't because of that.
07:54 It was because I started playing the piano
07:56 when I was five.
07:57 When everyone else was out playing chess
07:59 and football and baseball
08:01 and making lots of noise I wanted to make music.
08:04 And so I was called CCN
08:07 and made fun of it at time but it was because I was not--
08:11 Right, but not because of those issues generally speaking.
08:14 No, I mean, kids make fun of other kids
08:15 for a whole host of reasons and kids can be cruel.
08:19 Well, because of the dead wedding problem
08:20 that gave me another reason
08:23 to be ridiculed and make fun of.
08:24 So but I still did go through the trauma
08:28 of being mocked, made fun of and so forth
08:29 but also I was popular in the school.
08:32 I mean, it was dichotomy
08:36 I guess I mean, I had this going on
08:39 but I also had popularity too at time.
08:42 And so it was Steve, it was a life of confusion.
08:46 I was terribly confused growing up
08:48 and I masked it, no one knew.
08:50 I had girlfriends in high school and college
08:53 and no one have any idea.
08:54 And what brought you to the final point
08:56 to throw it all away and to step out
08:59 and go out into an openly gay lifestyle?
09:02 Well, I realized that marriage did not solve the problem
09:07 that I was dealing with and I had prayed for years
09:10 that the Lord would just take it away.
09:12 He didn't just take it away
09:14 and I started becoming disappointed with the Lord
09:17 because He wouldn't remove temptation.
09:19 Now we will be talking about that another time
09:22 but I had a degree in theology, I graduated with honors
09:26 but I did not have my answers.
09:28 And also I realized that I was studying
09:32 so hard to make straight A's to have high GPA
09:37 so I can go into medical school.
09:38 Then I started rationalizing,
09:40 well, I'm studying Bible all day in theology
09:42 why do I need to have my own private devotions
09:45 and I stopped studying for myself
09:48 and studied for the professors
09:50 and I really just lost my hold on God.
09:53 And in doing that I became weak
09:55 spiritually until I finally gave up.
09:58 I was angry with God for not taking this away
10:02 and I had no strength on my own
10:05 and I just gave Him and gave up.
10:07 Do you think there's a lot of other people out there?
10:10 I met them-- I have met them.
10:12 I have met a number of ex-pastors
10:15 who were husbands and fathers
10:18 that are very active in the gay community now.
10:21 I was-- I thought
10:22 I was the only person in the world but I'm not.
10:25 So you "came out of the closet" at the that point
10:29 you openly let people know
10:31 what you have been struggling with for a long time
10:33 and then you took the plunge to go into that lifestyle.
10:35 I tried-- I had one foot out of the closet.
10:38 I tried to stay in the closet.
10:40 In fact, I lived a double life once I left home.
10:43 My wife knew of course and my parents knew
10:45 and everyone was devastated.
10:46 But then what I did I moved away
10:49 and far from all of my friends.
10:50 I just turned my back on everything that I knew
10:53 and the entire time I lived in the gay life in the world
10:57 and in the workplace.
10:58 I lived one life during the day
11:00 and another life during the night.
11:03 At work I gave no indication,
11:05 I never talked about being gay.
11:07 I didn't give any indication and that caused problems
11:10 because there was-- there were ladies
11:15 who were interested in getting involved
11:16 and I wouldn't and so forth but I lived a double life.
11:21 Yeah, I didn't really ever really
11:23 just coming out of the closet.
11:24 I was not proud of who I was.
11:27 You told me that when you at least
11:30 took one foot out of the closet
11:33 that you were searching for a sense of freedom
11:37 and happiness.
11:38 Did you find what you were looking for
11:41 when you took that-- took that plunge at least at night?
11:45 Yes, a very interesting concept
11:47 because and I think this is true with many, many people
11:53 they-- that are struggling
11:55 and it was true with me that I felt like
11:58 such a failure living up to God standards.
12:00 I gave up on God and I was so tired
12:04 of the mental torment that I thought
12:07 well, if I just give up then I'll be free.
12:10 I don't have to pay attention to thou shalt not,
12:12 thou shalt not, thou shalt not.
12:15 What I didn't realize was that the law
12:17 is called the law of liberty.
12:19 And so in seeking freedom from the law of liberty
12:23 I really ended up in bondage
12:26 because I was now free from liberty
12:29 and I didn't realize I was in bondage
12:31 until I tried to come out of the gay life
12:34 and come back to the Lord and then I realized
12:38 that I was so totally addicted
12:40 and I was so totally enslaved by Satan.
12:44 That it truly was a miraculous delivery for me
12:46 to come out of that.
12:47 And what was the catalyst?
12:49 You know, tell us about what happened to--
12:52 To bring me out of that? That's right.
12:54 To make-- you know, have you make the--
12:55 I mean, I know what happened to me
12:56 I was in a dormitory room.
12:59 In 1979, I read a book on the life of Jesus.
13:02 My life was all messed up I read that book.
13:04 I was feeling a need by that time
13:05 and when I read that book on the life of Jesus
13:07 and saw what Jesus did in Gethsemane
13:10 and on the cross that for me was the catalyst.
13:14 I got on my knees and I prayed a prayer
13:17 I had never prayed before asking Him to come in.
13:19 So what happened to you?
13:20 There were many contributing factors
13:22 and its really a fascinating story
13:24 that's why its in the book and we couldn't cover here
13:26 but I had praying parents and praying friends
13:30 who loved me unconditionally.
13:32 They had planted things around my home
13:34 and every day visited.
13:36 I called it the left behind series.
13:38 A left behind material for me to read
13:40 but the Lord stepped in
13:41 because I was an unreachable person.
13:44 I was labeled as unchangeable
13:45 even by ministers, I was unreachable
13:48 because I wouldn't read anything,
13:49 watch anything, listen to anything,
13:51 go anywhere or talk to anyone
13:53 who had anything to do with religion.
13:55 So the Lord had to step in and answer to prayer
13:57 and He started visiting me in a recurring nightmare
14:02 which went on for about three years in which I lived
14:05 through the coming of Jesus as a lost person
14:08 and it was a horrific experience
14:11 but even then I resisted.
14:13 It took about three years for me to start responding
14:16 and then I started researching and reasoning
14:19 and studying and I really--
14:23 I was shown a text of scripture 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
14:28 at least all of these behaviors that will not be in heaven.
14:31 I was in there three or four times
14:33 but verse 11 says in such words
14:36 some of you showing that this could be past tense
14:39 and I thought, you know, once gay always gay
14:42 that's the myth but the Bible says
14:45 that some of these people were gay,
14:46 they used to be they were now sanctified and justified
14:50 and cleansed and washed.
14:52 And so that was a very strong turning point for me.
14:56 I actually end up taking a stand for Jesus that night
14:59 when I was shown that text.
15:01 But-- So that verse and such words
15:04 some of you that really penetrated your soul.
15:09 Right, it clicked. It really did.
15:11 I shook you and it gave you hope to beg.
15:13 It gave me hope but then I continued studying
15:16 and I have to tell you Steve, I found all of my--
15:19 none of my answers through counseling
15:21 and psychiatry and psychology or even pastors unfortunately.
15:26 I didn't trust because I didn't want to be told
15:28 that kind can never change again.
15:31 So I just went to the Word of God.
15:33 I spent time on my knees and listened to the Holy Spirit
15:36 studied the Word of God and I found everything
15:39 I needed right there, powerful, powerful promises.
15:43 I have an article called A Rainbow of Promises
15:46 in which I have a collection of these beautiful promises
15:49 and it's like a very powerful medicine.
15:52 You read through those promises and your heart just thrills
15:56 and you are encouraged in the strength
15:58 in just reading those promises.
15:59 And the Bible is full of promises.
16:01 I understand that this verse is precious to you
16:04 and to me 2 Corinthians 5:17.
16:08 Says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ,
16:11 he is a new creature, old things have passed away,
16:15 behold, all things are become new."
16:19 Which you say that this verse applies to you.
16:22 Yes, and if we just slow down and pay attention to the words
16:26 a new creature, that means a new creation,
16:29 which means the work of the Creator
16:31 and our Creator has a plan for us
16:34 and He can restore in us what He meant for us
16:37 to be in the first place.
16:39 This text to me means that the new birth
16:42 consists of new models
16:43 and new taste and new tendencies
16:45 and that of genuine conversion changes hereditary
16:49 in cultivated tendencies to wrong
16:52 and that text is just another powerful, powerful text.
16:55 It gave me hope.
16:56 So was there one moment
16:59 when you finally made the choice
17:01 and you gave your life back to God and said Lord,
17:04 I'm yours come up and takeover.
17:06 I wanted the process. It was a process.
17:07 It was a process under great conviction
17:09 I started visiting some churches.
17:12 I went through a prophecy seminar
17:15 and did go through that process
17:18 to where eventually I did accept Jesus.
17:21 I was almost killed in the process by the way
17:24 because I was in a relationship that was for life.
17:27 And when I announced that I was going to follow Him,
17:32 that I loved Him more all hell broke lose
17:35 and it was like seven demons that were turned on me.
17:40 It was a very traumatic process
17:41 but that process revealed to me who I was really dealing with.
17:47 Satan had me in his clutches
17:48 and he was not about to let me go.
17:50 And you saw the enemy when you really--
17:52 when you made the decision to come back to God
17:54 the enemy manifested himself full force.
17:57 Oh, he wanted to kill me before I could be baptized.
18:00 And the Lord allowed that but He also spared me
18:04 so that I could go forward seer against the old life.
18:07 I mean, that has no appeal to me.
18:09 I mean, it seared me.
18:10 Doesn't mean I was without temptation
18:12 but it sure gave me conviction and determination
18:16 to start a new life with Christ.
18:17 So that was 22 years ago probably--
18:20 Twenty two years ago.
18:21 And did the temptations go away right away?
18:23 Did it-- was it all everything new immediately
18:26 or was it like you said a process?
18:28 You know, a lot of people would like for me to say
18:30 that temptation was taken away
18:32 but you know, Steve, I haven't found in the Bible
18:34 that God promises to remove temptation.
18:37 He promises that His grace is sufficient.
18:40 And no, temptation was not taken away.
18:42 I mean, I was baptized
18:44 Satan wasn't and he is the tempter.
18:48 I chose a new life, a new direction for my life
18:51 Satan still had his old plan in place.
18:53 And so I went to furious temptation,
18:55 very strong temptation therefore while
18:58 but I came away equipped from the Word of God.
19:01 I knew what to do.
19:02 I knew that I could bring every thought into captivity
19:06 unto the obedience of Christ.
19:07 I knew I could let this mind be in me
19:09 which was in Christ Jesus.
19:10 I knew, God worked in me to will
19:12 and to do this good pleasure.
19:13 It has so many beautiful promises
19:15 and so I just learned to flip the switch
19:18 and turn the page and change the channel
19:20 and turn my head and change the subject
19:22 and just starve that side of me--
19:24 That old life.
19:25 One thing that I did I took the gay issue
19:27 and I hung it on the other tree in the Garden of Eden
19:30 so its off limits where God says don't go there.
19:33 So you just made a firm choice--
19:34 I made a choice.
19:35 Even though you may still have been tempted
19:36 you just decided I'm not going to follow this way.
19:40 Right, it's not an option just off limits.
19:43 So the myth that you are tying to explode it
19:47 once gay always gay, you--
19:50 now its been 22 years since that happened,
19:54 you are married, you have children,
19:57 second marriage and you are a minister,
19:59 you had a radio program, you are an author,
20:01 you travel around, you hold seminars
20:03 and speak on these topics and if somebody were to,
20:07 you know, ask you, you know, have you truly,
20:11 genuinely been changed your answer would be?
20:16 Yes, absolutely.
20:17 I'm very content in my new life
20:19 and, you know, God promises us
20:21 that that His plan for our life really far exceeds anything
20:24 we could even imagine for ourselves.
20:26 Father knows best and so in choosing to follow His will
20:31 we starve that old side we feed the new
20:33 and we find out that new is so much better than the old.
20:38 I asked, I asked Mike Carducci the question
20:41 and I'm sure and Wayne has also shared
20:43 you know, his happiness of his new life.
20:46 Are you happy now as compared to the life
20:49 that you used to live?
20:50 Well, in the world I never got to be on set
20:52 with Steve Wohlberg, you know.
20:55 There are so many wonderful opportunities
20:57 to speak out for the Lord and to witness and, you know,
21:01 one of the secrets to overcoming sin
21:02 is helping others to overcome sin
21:05 and I believe that the reason
21:06 the Lord wants us to work for Him
21:08 and His vineyard is so that we share the joy that He has
21:11 and nothing brings more joy to us
21:15 than helping others find the same answers
21:18 that we have found leading people to Jesus.
21:21 I never did that in the world.
21:23 So yes, I'm much, much happy.
21:25 Yes, and you wrote a book, your book is not,
21:27 your book is not designed to clobber people
21:29 but it's to get people hope.
21:31 That you can relate to their struggles
21:34 and if there really is an answer to this issue
21:38 and that hope is real through the grace of Jesus Christ.
21:44 Right and in the book I tell my story
21:45 but the last chapter is called, "you too can be made whole."
21:50 And I go through the sequence of events
21:52 the Lord led me through to victory
21:54 and how to sustain me in that victory
21:57 and its just turned out to be a very powerful tool
21:59 for pastors and counselors
22:01 and for families and friends of gays
22:04 and for the gay person who is wanting help himself.
22:08 So now you are part of Coming Out Ministries,
22:09 you have teamed up with Wayne and with Mike
22:13 and you are presenting a united front
22:16 and sharing a message and in your--
22:17 I've asked the two of them the same question
22:19 I'll ask you, what would you say
22:21 if you can just boil it down in a short couple sentences
22:24 what is your message to the world
22:26 and to the church and to those
22:28 that are struggling with this issue?
22:29 Well, the theme that I harbor
22:31 and the theme of my ministry
22:32 is that nothing is impossible with God
22:36 for He is mighty to save that whosoever
22:39 from whatsoever even to the uttermost.
22:43 And you know, I'm an exhibit A,
22:45 you are an exhibit A, we all are to be exhibits
22:48 of the power of God to recreate,
22:50 to transform His children into, to royal children of Him.
22:56 And if you were talking to others out there
22:59 who are no doubt watching this many of them
23:01 I'm sure who are struggling with the same issues you know,
23:04 what appeal or what counsel would you give to them?
23:09 I would just let them know
23:11 and try to encourage them to understand
23:13 that they can trust God, they can take Him at His word
23:17 that His way is best
23:20 and if we will let the mind rule
23:23 over the body instead of letting the body
23:25 and the feelings rule over the mind
23:28 we can have great success and there is much more joy,
23:31 happiness, peace and health in following God's plan.
23:36 It is doable.
23:37 You know, we are here on the set with you
23:40 to testify to the fact that God's plan works.
23:45 There's no question in my mind
23:46 and I know that the Bible is full of promises.
23:49 I think of that Romans Chapter 1
23:51 where Paul says that he is not ashamed
23:55 of the gospel of Christ.
23:56 "For it is the power of God for salvation to every one
24:02 who believe to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
24:04 That's Romans 1:16, 17 that the Bible tells us
24:07 that that God has power, that the gospel has power
24:11 that the Holy Spirit has power, that the Word of God has power.
24:16 And I know that from my life too.
24:18 I was, I was in chains as well as a teenager
24:23 plunging off the deep end into the Hollywood lifestyle.
24:25 I did grow up in the church, I didn't read the Bible
24:28 and when I was 18 or 19 I was just a slave.
24:31 I knew that eventually and I started reading the Bible
24:34 and I came to realize I'm in trouble and I need help.
24:39 I need help and I made the same choice.
24:42 I just said God, I'm at the edge of my rope
24:45 and I can't change myself.
24:48 Will You please forgive me and help me
24:51 and do something for me that I cannot do for myself.
24:54 You know, you use the word power
24:57 and its a very interesting word because in the Greek dictionary
25:01 the word Grace is defined as the divine influence
25:05 working up on the heart and reflecting in the life.
25:08 In other words grace really
25:10 is divine omnipotent transforming power.
25:14 And in John Chapter 1 we read about
25:16 when Jesus came to this earth
25:18 and His own did not receive Him but and he goes on to say
25:21 that "But as many as did receive him,
25:25 to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
25:30 even to them that believe on his name."
25:32 So Jesus does give us the strength and the power
25:36 to turn away from our addictive life to follow Him.
25:42 He promises to work with us day by day,
25:44 hour by hour, moment by moment
25:47 to sustain us to give us that strength.
25:49 His grace is sufficient.
25:50 And that's that grace and that power
25:52 is available to everyone.
25:55 Sin, whatever the sin is,
25:58 whatever manifestation of the flesh we go into,
26:01 whatever our feelings say, whatever our addictions
26:05 the chains that bind us grace is available to all of us.
26:10 God's grace is inclusive in that sense.
26:13 Its available to everybody
26:14 but we have to make a choice and you had to make a choice.
26:17 Do I have time to share three texts of scripture?
26:19 I mean, oh, just some of.
26:21 We have less, we have about a minute.
26:23 Hebrews 4:2, 12
26:26 Jesus was tempted in all points like we are yeah without sin.
26:30 He suffered being tempted and He resisted unto blood
26:33 and we can do the same thing
26:35 because He gives us the power to do that.
26:37 That's very well.
26:38 I'm a believer and you are a believer
26:41 and the purpose of this series is to,
26:45 is to share what the Bible says.
26:47 We are not claiming that we are perfect,
26:48 that we are, you know, entirely holy
26:51 that we don't need any help that we are still not tempted
26:54 but we believe in the Bible,
26:55 we believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in His power
26:58 and we believe in this verse that is so important
27:01 to Pastor Ron and so many others.
27:02 2 Corinthians 5:17, that says "If any man"
27:07 and that applies to you, it applies to women, men,
27:10 boys, children, any human being
27:13 "who is in Christ, he is a new creature,
27:17 old things have passed away,
27:19 behold, all things are become new."
27:23 If you'd like to order the 13-part
27:24 Coming Out stories for $34.95 plus shipping
27:28 call 1-800-782-4253 or write to White Horse Media,
27:32 PO Box 1139, New Port, Washington 99156.
27:36 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely and Mike Carducci
27:39 are each available to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:42 To schedule a speaking engagement
27:44 contact Coming Out Ministries by calling 360-936-8514
27:49 or visit comingoutministries.org.