Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Pr. Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000003
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00:09 If you are listening you know that
00:11 sexual, lesbian, homosexual issues 00:14 are now being discussed openly around the world. 00:17 They are being talked about in the court room, 00:19 they are being talked about in the media, on campuses, 00:22 even elementary school campuses. 00:24 They are being talked about in churches, 00:26 in homes, in human hearts 00:29 and its time for us to talk about them 00:31 as well next on Coming Out. 01:11 Welcome to part three of Coming Out. 01:13 My special guest today is Pastor Ron Woolsey. 01:17 He is a pastor of two churches in Arkansas. 01:20 He is also one of the cofounders 01:22 of the Coming Out Ministries. 01:24 And Ron, Pastor Ron, want to welcome you. 01:29 Here to North Idaho to be part of this special series. 01:32 It's a privilege to be here, thank you. 01:33 Well, thank you too, Ron. 01:35 As you know, my first guest was Wayne Blakely. 01:38 He has been out for five years. 01:42 My next guest was Mike Carducci and he's been out for 13 years 01:46 and understand that its been 22 years for you. 01:50 So you are really like the sage among us 01:54 that we are gonna look to you for a lot of wisdom. 01:57 Yes, they also referred to me as Moses. 01:59 Now I don't know why its 02:00 because of my chin or because of my age. 02:04 Well, I don't know but Ron, you've been through a lot. 02:06 We've known each other for quite a while 02:08 and we've got a lot to listen to you, to learn from you 02:12 and you are also the only one of the three 02:14 that has written a book. 02:16 Pastor Ron has a book it's called 02:18 "That Kind Can Never Change! 02:20 Can They...?" 02:22 And the subtitle there is, one man struggle to understand 02:25 and overcome his homosexuality. 02:29 And the name at the bottom is Victor J. Adamson 02:33 which is really not your real name, 02:36 it's a pen name. 02:37 Why did you pick that name? 02:39 Well, first of all I was advised by the publisher 02:42 who have actually published the book 02:44 to use a pen name for my protection. 02:46 They had an other author right on the same subject 02:49 to that is house burned to ground 02:53 and then when I was asked to come up with a name 02:56 I spent more time on the name than writing the book actually 02:59 because I wanted a message to be in the name. 03:01 And there is a definite message of salvation in the name. 03:05 And the subtitle of this program 03:09 is "Exploding the Gay Myth" 03:12 and that's really what your book attempts to do 03:15 and you see as many others see you life as an example 03:20 and it's a testimony of the power of God. 03:23 And we want to hear your story. 03:24 I've got my story but its not the time to tell it 03:27 we are here to hear your story 03:28 and understand that you grew up in a Christian home 03:32 and you made a series of choices 03:34 preparing for the ministry 03:36 and you eventually got married, had children 03:39 and then decided to exit that life 03:42 and to go into the gay lifestyle. 03:45 So tell us little bit about the background, 03:47 you know, fill us in on some of those details. 03:50 Well, it's true I made a lot of good choices. 03:52 I grew up as a very spiritual child 03:54 and a spiritual teenager. 03:57 I wanted to do right, I wanted to please, 04:00 I wanted to be accepted 04:02 and I chose for myself a Christian education. 04:06 I chose a Christian college, 04:08 I chose to be a student missionary, 04:12 I chose to study theology 04:14 and pre-med with the idea of being a medical missionary. 04:18 I chose to have a Christian wife 04:20 and I chose to have Christian babies. 04:22 But you could not convince me that I chose to be gay. 04:25 I finally just gave up this struggle 04:28 that I had been dealing with all of my life 04:30 and accepted being gay. 04:33 I did not at the time consider that to be a choice. 04:36 Okay, I'm just curios based upon the previous testimonies. 04:38 Do you attribute your feelings, your gay feelings 04:43 to have anything to do with your parents, 04:45 with your mother and your father 04:47 and you think it was just your genes 04:48 or you think it was your environment 04:50 or you know just give us a quick opinion. 04:53 You know, Steve, there are so many factors 04:55 that contribute to this issue 04:57 and many sin issues and addiction issues. 05:01 And there were factors in my life. 05:03 I didn't know why I was so different growing up 05:07 and no one knew I was. 05:09 I just had this mental struggle where I felt like 05:12 I was outside of the male community 05:14 of brothers and dad and so forth. 05:17 But looking back on it I've been able to connect dots. 05:21 I was sexually molested by a farmhand 05:23 when I was four-years-old, 05:25 never told a living soul about it. 05:27 And as a four-year-old child I'd now was trying to process 05:32 what is this, what's this all about? 05:34 I do know from that day forward 05:36 I had wild fantasies and imaginations. 05:39 My mind was filled with all of this 05:41 and it affected me by the time I was a teenager 05:44 where I would be learning about 05:47 you know, God's way of sexuality and so forth. 05:49 I already had ten years of head start in the wrong direction 05:53 but also I had an abusive-- 05:57 my father initially was emotionally abusive 06:00 because he was trying to shame me 06:04 into overcoming bedwetting 06:06 which came after the molestation 06:10 and publicly humiliating me and shaming me 06:13 I grew up feeling unloved and unwanted and unequal 06:16 and a disappointment and a failure. 06:19 And so that was another contributing factor, 06:22 the sense of rejection 06:24 and but there are all kinds of factors 06:27 that play into this. 06:28 Sure and so by the time you were married 06:31 you had gone through years of struggling with this 06:34 but evidently you still were attracted to a woman 06:36 because you got married. 06:38 Well, that's an interesting concept 06:41 but it's not really true. 06:43 I decided that marriage would be solution. 06:47 Now I know that's laughable now 06:51 it is not the solution to anything. 06:53 In fact, marriage can be a real problem 06:55 if you are not going into marriage properly 06:57 in for the right reasons and with God's blessing. 07:00 But I just thought that my mind was 07:02 so sexually active that I thought 07:05 well, if I get married that will take care of it. 07:08 That was so foolish of me. 07:10 Well, I was naive and it didn't of course. 07:14 Very quickly I realized I made a terrible mistake 07:18 and my wife was unsuspecting. 07:20 She planned to be the wife of a minister or missionary 07:24 and she was a good Christian and of course, 07:26 she was terribly devastated 07:27 when I finally just gave up and fell into that. 07:31 But I had never talked to a living soul 07:33 about any of this. 07:35 I struggle with this in my mind all my life all alone. 07:40 And so people didn't pick up on it like with Mike's case? 07:43 He was made fun of in school but you were. 07:47 The kids didn't look at you and see, 07:49 you know, feminine characteristics? 07:51 There were some of them. 07:52 Well, it wasn't because of that. 07:54 It was because I started playing the piano 07:56 when I was five. 07:57 When everyone else was out playing chess 07:59 and football and baseball 08:01 and making lots of noise I wanted to make music. 08:04 And so I was called CCN 08:07 and made fun of it at time but it was because I was not-- 08:11 Right, but not because of those issues generally speaking. 08:14 No, I mean, kids make fun of other kids 08:15 for a whole host of reasons and kids can be cruel. 08:19 Well, because of the dead wedding problem 08:20 that gave me another reason 08:23 to be ridiculed and make fun of. 08:24 So but I still did go through the trauma 08:28 of being mocked, made fun of and so forth 08:29 but also I was popular in the school. 08:32 I mean, it was dichotomy 08:36 I guess I mean, I had this going on 08:39 but I also had popularity too at time. 08:42 And so it was Steve, it was a life of confusion. 08:46 I was terribly confused growing up 08:48 and I masked it, no one knew. 08:50 I had girlfriends in high school and college 08:53 and no one have any idea. 08:54 And what brought you to the final point 08:56 to throw it all away and to step out 08:59 and go out into an openly gay lifestyle? 09:02 Well, I realized that marriage did not solve the problem 09:07 that I was dealing with and I had prayed for years 09:10 that the Lord would just take it away. 09:12 He didn't just take it away 09:14 and I started becoming disappointed with the Lord 09:17 because He wouldn't remove temptation. 09:19 Now we will be talking about that another time 09:22 but I had a degree in theology, I graduated with honors 09:26 but I did not have my answers. 09:28 And also I realized that I was studying 09:32 so hard to make straight A's to have high GPA 09:37 so I can go into medical school. 09:38 Then I started rationalizing, 09:40 well, I'm studying Bible all day in theology 09:42 why do I need to have my own private devotions 09:45 and I stopped studying for myself 09:48 and studied for the professors 09:50 and I really just lost my hold on God. 09:53 And in doing that I became weak 09:55 spiritually until I finally gave up. 09:58 I was angry with God for not taking this away 10:02 and I had no strength on my own 10:05 and I just gave Him and gave up. 10:07 Do you think there's a lot of other people out there? 10:10 I met them-- I have met them. 10:12 I have met a number of ex-pastors 10:15 who were husbands and fathers 10:18 that are very active in the gay community now. 10:21 I was-- I thought 10:22 I was the only person in the world but I'm not. 10:25 So you "came out of the closet" at the that point 10:29 you openly let people know 10:31 what you have been struggling with for a long time 10:33 and then you took the plunge to go into that lifestyle. 10:35 I tried-- I had one foot out of the closet. 10:38 I tried to stay in the closet. 10:40 In fact, I lived a double life once I left home. 10:43 My wife knew of course and my parents knew 10:45 and everyone was devastated. 10:46 But then what I did I moved away 10:49 and far from all of my friends. 10:50 I just turned my back on everything that I knew 10:53 and the entire time I lived in the gay life in the world 10:57 and in the workplace. 10:58 I lived one life during the day 11:00 and another life during the night. 11:03 At work I gave no indication, 11:05 I never talked about being gay. 11:07 I didn't give any indication and that caused problems 11:10 because there was-- there were ladies 11:15 who were interested in getting involved 11:16 and I wouldn't and so forth but I lived a double life. 11:21 Yeah, I didn't really ever really 11:23 just coming out of the closet. 11:24 I was not proud of who I was. 11:27 You told me that when you at least 11:30 took one foot out of the closet 11:33 that you were searching for a sense of freedom 11:37 and happiness. 11:38 Did you find what you were looking for 11:41 when you took that-- took that plunge at least at night? 11:45 Yes, a very interesting concept 11:47 because and I think this is true with many, many people 11:53 they-- that are struggling 11:55 and it was true with me that I felt like 11:58 such a failure living up to God standards. 12:00 I gave up on God and I was so tired 12:04 of the mental torment that I thought 12:07 well, if I just give up then I'll be free. 12:10 I don't have to pay attention to thou shalt not, 12:12 thou shalt not, thou shalt not. 12:15 What I didn't realize was that the law 12:17 is called the law of liberty. 12:19 And so in seeking freedom from the law of liberty 12:23 I really ended up in bondage 12:26 because I was now free from liberty 12:29 and I didn't realize I was in bondage 12:31 until I tried to come out of the gay life 12:34 and come back to the Lord and then I realized 12:38 that I was so totally addicted 12:40 and I was so totally enslaved by Satan. 12:44 That it truly was a miraculous delivery for me 12:46 to come out of that. 12:47 And what was the catalyst? 12:49 You know, tell us about what happened to-- 12:52 To bring me out of that? That's right. 12:54 To make-- you know, have you make the-- 12:55 I mean, I know what happened to me 12:56 I was in a dormitory room. 12:59 In 1979, I read a book on the life of Jesus. 13:02 My life was all messed up I read that book. 13:04 I was feeling a need by that time 13:05 and when I read that book on the life of Jesus 13:07 and saw what Jesus did in Gethsemane 13:10 and on the cross that for me was the catalyst. 13:14 I got on my knees and I prayed a prayer 13:17 I had never prayed before asking Him to come in. 13:19 So what happened to you? 13:20 There were many contributing factors 13:22 and its really a fascinating story 13:24 that's why its in the book and we couldn't cover here 13:26 but I had praying parents and praying friends 13:30 who loved me unconditionally. 13:32 They had planted things around my home 13:34 and every day visited. 13:36 I called it the left behind series. 13:38 A left behind material for me to read 13:40 but the Lord stepped in 13:41 because I was an unreachable person. 13:44 I was labeled as unchangeable 13:45 even by ministers, I was unreachable 13:48 because I wouldn't read anything, 13:49 watch anything, listen to anything, 13:51 go anywhere or talk to anyone 13:53 who had anything to do with religion. 13:55 So the Lord had to step in and answer to prayer 13:57 and He started visiting me in a recurring nightmare 14:02 which went on for about three years in which I lived 14:05 through the coming of Jesus as a lost person 14:08 and it was a horrific experience 14:11 but even then I resisted. 14:13 It took about three years for me to start responding 14:16 and then I started researching and reasoning 14:19 and studying and I really-- 14:23 I was shown a text of scripture 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 14:28 at least all of these behaviors that will not be in heaven. 14:31 I was in there three or four times 14:33 but verse 11 says in such words 14:36 some of you showing that this could be past tense 14:39 and I thought, you know, once gay always gay 14:42 that's the myth but the Bible says 14:45 that some of these people were gay, 14:46 they used to be they were now sanctified and justified 14:50 and cleansed and washed. 14:52 And so that was a very strong turning point for me. 14:56 I actually end up taking a stand for Jesus that night 14:59 when I was shown that text. 15:01 But-- So that verse and such words 15:04 some of you that really penetrated your soul. 15:09 Right, it clicked. It really did. 15:11 I shook you and it gave you hope to beg. 15:13 It gave me hope but then I continued studying 15:16 and I have to tell you Steve, I found all of my-- 15:19 none of my answers through counseling 15:21 and psychiatry and psychology or even pastors unfortunately. 15:26 I didn't trust because I didn't want to be told 15:28 that kind can never change again. 15:31 So I just went to the Word of God. 15:33 I spent time on my knees and listened to the Holy Spirit 15:36 studied the Word of God and I found everything 15:39 I needed right there, powerful, powerful promises. 15:43 I have an article called A Rainbow of Promises 15:46 in which I have a collection of these beautiful promises 15:49 and it's like a very powerful medicine. 15:52 You read through those promises and your heart just thrills 15:56 and you are encouraged in the strength 15:58 in just reading those promises. 15:59 And the Bible is full of promises. 16:01 I understand that this verse is precious to you 16:04 and to me 2 Corinthians 5:17. 16:08 Says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, 16:11 he is a new creature, old things have passed away, 16:15 behold, all things are become new." 16:19 Which you say that this verse applies to you. 16:22 Yes, and if we just slow down and pay attention to the words 16:26 a new creature, that means a new creation, 16:29 which means the work of the Creator 16:31 and our Creator has a plan for us 16:34 and He can restore in us what He meant for us 16:37 to be in the first place. 16:39 This text to me means that the new birth 16:42 consists of new models 16:43 and new taste and new tendencies 16:45 and that of genuine conversion changes hereditary 16:49 in cultivated tendencies to wrong 16:52 and that text is just another powerful, powerful text. 16:55 It gave me hope. 16:56 So was there one moment 16:59 when you finally made the choice 17:01 and you gave your life back to God and said Lord, 17:04 I'm yours come up and takeover. 17:06 I wanted the process. It was a process. 17:07 It was a process under great conviction 17:09 I started visiting some churches. 17:12 I went through a prophecy seminar 17:15 and did go through that process 17:18 to where eventually I did accept Jesus. 17:21 I was almost killed in the process by the way 17:24 because I was in a relationship that was for life. 17:27 And when I announced that I was going to follow Him, 17:32 that I loved Him more all hell broke lose 17:35 and it was like seven demons that were turned on me. 17:40 It was a very traumatic process 17:41 but that process revealed to me who I was really dealing with. 17:47 Satan had me in his clutches 17:48 and he was not about to let me go. 17:50 And you saw the enemy when you really-- 17:52 when you made the decision to come back to God 17:54 the enemy manifested himself full force. 17:57 Oh, he wanted to kill me before I could be baptized. 18:00 And the Lord allowed that but He also spared me 18:04 so that I could go forward seer against the old life. 18:07 I mean, that has no appeal to me. 18:09 I mean, it seared me. 18:10 Doesn't mean I was without temptation 18:12 but it sure gave me conviction and determination 18:16 to start a new life with Christ. 18:17 So that was 22 years ago probably-- 18:20 Twenty two years ago. 18:21 And did the temptations go away right away? 18:23 Did it-- was it all everything new immediately 18:26 or was it like you said a process? 18:28 You know, a lot of people would like for me to say 18:30 that temptation was taken away 18:32 but you know, Steve, I haven't found in the Bible 18:34 that God promises to remove temptation. 18:37 He promises that His grace is sufficient. 18:40 And no, temptation was not taken away. 18:42 I mean, I was baptized 18:44 Satan wasn't and he is the tempter. 18:48 I chose a new life, a new direction for my life 18:51 Satan still had his old plan in place. 18:53 And so I went to furious temptation, 18:55 very strong temptation therefore while 18:58 but I came away equipped from the Word of God. 19:01 I knew what to do. 19:02 I knew that I could bring every thought into captivity 19:06 unto the obedience of Christ. 19:07 I knew I could let this mind be in me 19:09 which was in Christ Jesus. 19:10 I knew, God worked in me to will 19:12 and to do this good pleasure. 19:13 It has so many beautiful promises 19:15 and so I just learned to flip the switch 19:18 and turn the page and change the channel 19:20 and turn my head and change the subject 19:22 and just starve that side of me-- 19:24 That old life. 19:25 One thing that I did I took the gay issue 19:27 and I hung it on the other tree in the Garden of Eden 19:30 so its off limits where God says don't go there. 19:33 So you just made a firm choice-- 19:34 I made a choice. 19:35 Even though you may still have been tempted 19:36 you just decided I'm not going to follow this way. 19:40 Right, it's not an option just off limits. 19:43 So the myth that you are tying to explode it 19:47 once gay always gay, you-- 19:50 now its been 22 years since that happened, 19:54 you are married, you have children, 19:57 second marriage and you are a minister, 19:59 you had a radio program, you are an author, 20:01 you travel around, you hold seminars 20:03 and speak on these topics and if somebody were to, 20:07 you know, ask you, you know, have you truly, 20:11 genuinely been changed your answer would be? 20:16 Yes, absolutely. 20:17 I'm very content in my new life 20:19 and, you know, God promises us 20:21 that that His plan for our life really far exceeds anything 20:24 we could even imagine for ourselves. 20:26 Father knows best and so in choosing to follow His will 20:31 we starve that old side we feed the new 20:33 and we find out that new is so much better than the old. 20:38 I asked, I asked Mike Carducci the question 20:41 and I'm sure and Wayne has also shared 20:43 you know, his happiness of his new life. 20:46 Are you happy now as compared to the life 20:49 that you used to live? 20:50 Well, in the world I never got to be on set 20:52 with Steve Wohlberg, you know. 20:55 There are so many wonderful opportunities 20:57 to speak out for the Lord and to witness and, you know, 21:01 one of the secrets to overcoming sin 21:02 is helping others to overcome sin 21:05 and I believe that the reason 21:06 the Lord wants us to work for Him 21:08 and His vineyard is so that we share the joy that He has 21:11 and nothing brings more joy to us 21:15 than helping others find the same answers 21:18 that we have found leading people to Jesus. 21:21 I never did that in the world. 21:23 So yes, I'm much, much happy. 21:25 Yes, and you wrote a book, your book is not, 21:27 your book is not designed to clobber people 21:29 but it's to get people hope. 21:31 That you can relate to their struggles 21:34 and if there really is an answer to this issue 21:38 and that hope is real through the grace of Jesus Christ. 21:44 Right and in the book I tell my story 21:45 but the last chapter is called, "you too can be made whole." 21:50 And I go through the sequence of events 21:52 the Lord led me through to victory 21:54 and how to sustain me in that victory 21:57 and its just turned out to be a very powerful tool 21:59 for pastors and counselors 22:01 and for families and friends of gays 22:04 and for the gay person who is wanting help himself. 22:08 So now you are part of Coming Out Ministries, 22:09 you have teamed up with Wayne and with Mike 22:13 and you are presenting a united front 22:16 and sharing a message and in your-- 22:17 I've asked the two of them the same question 22:19 I'll ask you, what would you say 22:21 if you can just boil it down in a short couple sentences 22:24 what is your message to the world 22:26 and to the church and to those 22:28 that are struggling with this issue? 22:29 Well, the theme that I harbor 22:31 and the theme of my ministry 22:32 is that nothing is impossible with God 22:36 for He is mighty to save that whosoever 22:39 from whatsoever even to the uttermost. 22:43 And you know, I'm an exhibit A, 22:45 you are an exhibit A, we all are to be exhibits 22:48 of the power of God to recreate, 22:50 to transform His children into, to royal children of Him. 22:56 And if you were talking to others out there 22:59 who are no doubt watching this many of them 23:01 I'm sure who are struggling with the same issues you know, 23:04 what appeal or what counsel would you give to them? 23:09 I would just let them know 23:11 and try to encourage them to understand 23:13 that they can trust God, they can take Him at His word 23:17 that His way is best 23:20 and if we will let the mind rule 23:23 over the body instead of letting the body 23:25 and the feelings rule over the mind 23:28 we can have great success and there is much more joy, 23:31 happiness, peace and health in following God's plan. 23:36 It is doable. 23:37 You know, we are here on the set with you 23:40 to testify to the fact that God's plan works. 23:45 There's no question in my mind 23:46 and I know that the Bible is full of promises. 23:49 I think of that Romans Chapter 1 23:51 where Paul says that he is not ashamed 23:55 of the gospel of Christ. 23:56 "For it is the power of God for salvation to every one 24:02 who believe to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." 24:04 That's Romans 1:16, 17 that the Bible tells us 24:07 that that God has power, that the gospel has power 24:11 that the Holy Spirit has power, that the Word of God has power. 24:16 And I know that from my life too. 24:18 I was, I was in chains as well as a teenager 24:23 plunging off the deep end into the Hollywood lifestyle. 24:25 I did grow up in the church, I didn't read the Bible 24:28 and when I was 18 or 19 I was just a slave. 24:31 I knew that eventually and I started reading the Bible 24:34 and I came to realize I'm in trouble and I need help. 24:39 I need help and I made the same choice. 24:42 I just said God, I'm at the edge of my rope 24:45 and I can't change myself. 24:48 Will You please forgive me and help me 24:51 and do something for me that I cannot do for myself. 24:54 You know, you use the word power 24:57 and its a very interesting word because in the Greek dictionary 25:01 the word Grace is defined as the divine influence 25:05 working up on the heart and reflecting in the life. 25:08 In other words grace really 25:10 is divine omnipotent transforming power. 25:14 And in John Chapter 1 we read about 25:16 when Jesus came to this earth 25:18 and His own did not receive Him but and he goes on to say 25:21 that "But as many as did receive him, 25:25 to them gave he power to become the sons of God, 25:30 even to them that believe on his name." 25:32 So Jesus does give us the strength and the power 25:36 to turn away from our addictive life to follow Him. 25:42 He promises to work with us day by day, 25:44 hour by hour, moment by moment 25:47 to sustain us to give us that strength. 25:49 His grace is sufficient. 25:50 And that's that grace and that power 25:52 is available to everyone. 25:55 Sin, whatever the sin is, 25:58 whatever manifestation of the flesh we go into, 26:01 whatever our feelings say, whatever our addictions 26:05 the chains that bind us grace is available to all of us. 26:10 God's grace is inclusive in that sense. 26:13 Its available to everybody 26:14 but we have to make a choice and you had to make a choice. 26:16 Right. 26:17 Do I have time to share three texts of scripture? 26:19 I mean, oh, just some of. 26:21 We have less, we have about a minute. 26:23 Hebrews 4:2, 12 26:26 Jesus was tempted in all points like we are yeah without sin. 26:30 He suffered being tempted and He resisted unto blood 26:33 and we can do the same thing 26:35 because He gives us the power to do that. 26:37 That's very well. 26:38 I'm a believer and you are a believer 26:41 and the purpose of this series is to, 26:45 is to share what the Bible says. 26:47 We are not claiming that we are perfect, 26:48 that we are, you know, entirely holy 26:51 that we don't need any help that we are still not tempted 26:54 but we believe in the Bible, 26:55 we believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in His power 26:58 and we believe in this verse that is so important 27:01 to Pastor Ron and so many others. 27:02 2 Corinthians 5:17, that says "If any man" 27:07 and that applies to you, it applies to women, men, 27:10 boys, children, any human being 27:13 "who is in Christ, he is a new creature, 27:17 old things have passed away, 27:19 behold, all things are become new." 27:23 If you'd like to order the 13-part 27:24 Coming Out stories for $34.95 plus shipping 27:28 call 1-800-782-4253 or write to White Horse Media, 27:32 PO Box 1139, New Port, Washington 99156. 27:36 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely and Mike Carducci 27:39 are each available to conduct a seminar in your area. 27:42 To schedule a speaking engagement 27:44 contact Coming Out Ministries by calling 360-936-8514 27:49 or visit comingoutministries.org. |
Revised 2015-01-15