Coming Out

The Owner's Manual

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Mike Carducci, Pr. Ron Woolsey


Series Code: COT

Program Code: COT000004

00:09 Homosexuality and the Bible, are they compatible?
00:13 Next on Coming Out.
00:59 Welcome once again to Coming Out.
01:01 This is a special television series, 13 parts,
01:04 produced by White Horse Media
01:06 dealing with controversial issues,
01:08 dealing with sexuality, homosexuality,
01:11 lesbianism and the Bible.
01:14 I'm here again with two of the three cofounders
01:17 and maybe there were more cofounders,
01:19 I'm not sure of Coming Out Ministries
01:21 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Mike Carducci.
01:24 Again thank you for being here.
01:26 In the first couple programs
01:28 we basically listened to your stories,
01:31 we heard your testimonies
01:32 of how you came out of the closet,
01:36 you chose to go into an openly homosexual lifestyle
01:41 but then you came out of that lifestyle
01:45 and from what I understand one of the key catalysts
01:48 to that transition was the book, it was the Bible.
01:53 And our topic today is called the "Owner's Manual"
01:57 where we will be discussing God's book.
02:00 Is the Bible, is it a manual and is it an owner's manual
02:04 and before we even look at that,
02:06 you know, how important is an owner's manual anyway?
02:09 Like to someone who owns a car,
02:13 is it important that we have one?
02:15 That we read it? That we follow it?
02:18 Most people don't read it anyway
02:19 but what do you think?
02:20 Oh, yeah.
02:21 I probably wouldn't have blown the engine of my car
02:23 when I was 23, 24 if I'd have read it.
02:27 So you had a mishap? Yeah, I didn't check the oil.
02:30 You didn't check the oil? Right.
02:32 And it was a costly mishap, wasn't it?
02:33 Yeah.
02:35 I have two cars down right now,
02:38 probably would not have been in their condition
02:41 had I really studied the owner's manual.
02:43 Yeah.
02:44 I mean, most people don't read owner's manuals,
02:46 and I guess that's probably the way it is with the Bible.
02:49 Most people really don't read the Bible
02:51 but, you know,
02:52 the owner's manual is very important
02:55 at least the principles are even if you don't read it.
02:58 The principle is that if it says
03:00 your car is designed for unleaded gas
03:03 that you don't put diesel in
03:06 and there's other issues as well,
03:08 you mentioned the oil and the water and the gas.
03:12 Everything has to be done in the right proportions.
03:14 That's right if you, we're told to use oil,
03:18 water and gas in our vehicles
03:19 and if we put gasoline in the crank case
03:24 and water in the fuel tank and you know, mix those up,
03:30 we're using all of the right components
03:32 and all of the right ingredients
03:34 but if we're not following that manual
03:36 we'll destroy that vehicle.
03:39 And you've already learnt that with your car.
03:41 One of your cars. Oh, yeah.
03:43 Now let's go to the Bible.
03:45 What does the Bible say about the owner
03:49 and about how this is a manual,
03:51 so I think you have a couple of scriptures,
03:53 Bible verses you like to share, Mike.
03:55 Genesis 1:1, it says
03:57 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
03:59 And so God there is the very author
04:01 of the owner's manual and then Genesis 1:27 says,
04:07 in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
04:09 "So God created man in his own image,
04:12 in the image of God created he him,
04:14 male and female created he them."
04:17 You know, this really strikes me
04:19 when I had the gender dysphoria.
04:21 It wasn't until I was in my 40s
04:23 that God showed me, I was constantly praying
04:25 that God would make me a female
04:27 and really what He spoke to me in my 40s,
04:30 long after that issue had passed is that
04:32 God said "no, I didn't make a mistake, Mike.
04:34 I made you male, and because of that
04:37 I had trouble all my adult life,
04:39 until just recently even considering myself a man,
04:42 I got it that I was male but even recognizing
04:45 that God has been affirming that masculinity for me
04:48 since I have been walking with Him for the past 13 years
04:51 and isn't that amazing to be in your 50s
04:54 and finally realize that indeed I am a man.
04:57 What is dysphoria?
04:58 You mentioned that word, you lost me on that.
04:59 That's the gender confusion.
05:01 I wanted to be a girl,
05:02 I thought that God had made a mistake,
05:03 I prayed that God would make me a girl
05:06 and it wasn't until probably I was 47
05:08 and chopping wood in my front yard
05:10 and God was just affirming and saying no, Mike,
05:13 I never made a mistake,
05:14 you were always intended to be a male
05:16 and that even before the earth was formed
05:17 God knew me and He knew me as a male.
05:20 And as He washed that over me I realized that my confusion,
05:25 a little kid didn't know that that God had made a mistake
05:28 with that, you know, he was a girl trapped in a boy's body.
05:31 But that God showed me through His word
05:34 and through relationship that God didn't make mistakes
05:37 and that there was a twisting in this rope,
05:39 these knots that have been knotted up
05:42 and as He started to untangle these knots
05:44 in my walk with Him, I realized indeed
05:47 that I was intended to be a male.
05:50 And the verse you read the first verse says
05:52 in the beginning God, so that establishes
05:55 that it all started a long time ago with God,
06:00 He's the one that set this up and Pastor Ron,
06:02 I think you have a verse that talks about
06:04 not only how God, is the owner
06:06 but He has a book which is His manual.
06:09 Yes, I really like the-- this subject in this concept
06:13 that the Word of God is His manual,
06:18 because He not only created us
06:20 He gave us instruction on how to maintain our lives
06:23 to be healthy and joyful
06:26 and productive and have fulfilling lives.
06:29 And this text is just an anchor text for me
06:33 because it helps me understand why certain things cross me
06:39 and conflict with me in my fallen nature.
06:44 First, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
06:49 "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God"
06:52 who is our Creator, the owner
06:55 "and is profitable for doctrine for reproof,
06:59 for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
07:03 It goes onto say "That the man of God may be perfect,
07:05 thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
07:08 Since so God's plan is that we will follow His word
07:12 to maintain what He created us
07:15 to be in the first place and as I read this
07:18 I see that if I studied the Word of God,
07:22 and I do not accept reproof, and I do not accept correction,
07:27 I really cannot call myself a Christian
07:30 because that's the whole purpose.
07:32 The Word of God is to keep me on track
07:35 because in my humanity I will automatically deviate
07:39 and derail and it's the Word of God
07:42 through reproof and correction and instruction
07:45 that informs us and keeps us on track.
07:48 And it is God's book, it says that it is God's book,
07:51 it says that all scripture, which will be Old Testament
07:54 and New Testament is given by inspiration of God.
07:58 This is God's book for those different things
08:00 and I heard somebody once say,
08:02 that God gave us the Bible to teach us doctrine
08:05 which is what's right to give us correction
08:07 to show us where we maybe wrong
08:09 and then to or to reprove us,
08:12 He gives us for doctoring what's right reproof
08:15 where we maybe wrong, correction help us to get right
08:18 and then instruction in righteousness
08:21 helps us to stay right once we get right.
08:23 So it's really, it's complete. It's complete.
08:26 Okay, so establishing that based on the book and we,
08:29 we just are not ashamed to publicly say
08:33 that we believe these words,
08:35 we believe in this book that God is the owner
08:38 this is His manual and His book tells us
08:40 what's best for us just like the owner's manual of a car,
08:44 tells us what kind of gasoline to put in the engine.
08:47 So let's go-- let's go back we're in the gas tank.
08:50 Let's go back to the beginning
08:52 and establish what does the Bible say,
08:54 the owner's manual say about male,
08:58 female marriage, what's the original plan?
09:01 And I think you read a verse a little bit ago
09:03 can you read that again.
09:04 Yes. Genesis 2:24.
09:05 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother,
09:09 and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh."
09:13 Okay, and you previously also read chapter 1 verse 27,
09:17 that says that God made man in his own image,
09:20 and in his image he made male and he made female
09:24 and that verse 2:24 describes the plan
09:28 for a male and a female.
09:30 Right it says a man will leave his father,
09:33 there's the male father, and his mother the female
09:37 and then he will then cleave
09:39 or be united to his wife and the two will become one
09:43 and that's called marriage right.
09:45 Well, not only that it also establishes the family,
09:48 we'll leave the father and the mother,
09:50 establishing that that's the family.
09:51 Good, yeah parents and children.
09:53 Now, is that verse relevant for us today?
09:56 Absolutely. Absolutely.
09:57 It was written I don't know
09:58 how many thousands of years ago,
10:00 Moses wrote that, is it relevant for our time?
10:07 It speaks to me more even at this very moment
10:10 just the significance of leaving
10:12 the father and the mother
10:14 it's already established what the proper family is,
10:17 there's a statistic that says that now
10:19 that there are more single mothers raising children
10:23 that can never be reversed.
10:24 And so there are so many homes that are fatherless,
10:28 it makes sense that people are having confusion
10:31 and a lot more trauma and difficulty
10:35 in finding out their ways.
10:36 Because little girls need a father to be,
10:39 you know, protected
10:40 and to be told they are princesses
10:43 and little boys need a father to understand
10:45 how to form masculinity and how to establish that.
10:49 And so now because we have
10:51 so few of fathers in the home
10:53 as well as even in Christian society,
10:55 you know, the men that are struggling
10:57 or that are outside the home
10:58 I think that it's created a lot of problems
11:01 in out society today.
11:03 I'm sure, Pastor Ron, you believe that as well.
11:06 Yes, and what we're reading in Genesis
11:09 of course is God's original plan in a perfect world,
11:12 a perfect environment and it was not His plan
11:14 that we should ever deviate from that.
11:17 And so today, especially as we are Christians,
11:21 we should be looking at His original plan
11:23 because the whole plan of salvation is to restore us
11:28 to what He created us to be in the first place.
11:31 So Christians should focus a lot on Genesis
11:35 the first few chapters of Genesis to see
11:38 how we can accept, reprove, correction
11:41 and instruction to come back to what
11:44 the plan was in Eden in the beginning.
11:46 Right, okay. Powerful.
11:48 Now, we need to look at the tough texts where this,
11:52 you know what this whole series is about.
11:54 And there are-- now that we've read the plan,
11:57 what about other verses
11:59 that describe deviation from that plan,
12:01 let's look at probably two of the most
12:03 controversial texts of all.
12:06 One of them is in Leviticus,
12:08 and one of them is in Romans, one in the old,
12:10 one in the new in the owner's manual.
12:13 So let's just look at them
12:16 and then I want you to talk about them
12:17 and share your opinions and then we'll just,
12:20 you know, look at the facts.
12:22 Well, you know, one of the big arguments today
12:27 from the pro gay community and pro gay Christians
12:33 is this thing about gay monogamy.
12:36 Surely God can approve of gay monogamy,
12:40 it's the, the flagrant abuse of sexuality,
12:46 the promiscuity that is wrong
12:50 but yet gay monogamy should be okay, well--
12:54 Isn't it the idea that like we have male and female
12:56 in the beginning that the idea
12:58 now is that you can still have a male and a male,
13:01 and a female and a female
13:02 as long as they love each other as long as they're committed
13:06 and as long as they're monogamous
13:08 and they're faithful to their partner,
13:09 right, that's the idea.
13:12 And of course, having been there
13:14 I mean, we have difficulty recalling any relationships
13:19 that we've ever known that were monogamous.
13:22 It's almost like the straw man or something
13:25 it's hard to believe that really exists,
13:29 but perhaps it does but even if it does,
13:31 does that make you right?
13:32 How does God feel, how does He view it?
13:34 And in Leviticus 20:13, he really spells it out
13:39 in no uncertain terms He says,
13:42 "If a man also lie with mankind,
13:45 as he lieth with a woman," and that would be
13:48 a man and a man, that's monogamy,
13:52 " If a man also lie with mankind,
13:54 as he lieth with a woman, both" so that's two of them,
13:57 " both of them have committed an abomination."
14:00 It states very clearly to me
14:03 that gay monogamy is abomination.
14:05 If gay monogamy exists even then it's abomination,
14:11 it is outside of God's plan.
14:13 So some say that this text
14:14 is not applying to faithful homosexuality
14:18 it's just applying to aberration,
14:22 where they're not faithful or it's not consensual
14:25 or whatever argument is being used
14:27 but you're saying that that's really not what the text says.
14:29 Well, if you look at the owner's manual
14:31 and read it the way it reads.
14:35 It's so succinct, it is so clear.
14:39 It's hard to, I mean you really have to wrestle
14:43 with the scriptures to make it mean anything other than that.
14:45 If a man also lie with mankind as with a woman,
14:50 that seems to cover monogamy,
14:53 both of them that means both men
14:55 that's monogamy both of them have committed an abomination.
15:00 And so there again we have to say,
15:04 you know, or ask the question, do I accept the owner's manual?
15:07 Do I accept God's word or am I going
15:10 to try to rationalize it away?
15:12 Now what is an abomination? What does that word mean?
15:16 To me it's really just sin because you know in my book
15:18 I went through the Bible
15:19 and I listed all the abominations
15:21 I could find in the Bible
15:23 put them all together in one paragraph it really,
15:26 it didn't make me feel better about homosexuality
15:29 it made me feel better about salvation
15:31 because you look at all of those
15:34 that are listed as abominations
15:35 and it just really boils down to sin, but--
15:38 And there are other, to be fair
15:40 there are other abominations, everybody talks about
15:43 these six things are an abomination
15:45 or the Lord hates seven abominations and it lists--
15:48 Gossip is one of them.
15:50 Proud heart, you know, hearty look, so it's not just--
15:53 Adultery. Okay.
15:54 Hearing is abomination.
15:56 Well and this verse isn't specific
15:58 whether it's an adulterous relationship
16:00 or a committed sanctioned relationship
16:03 and so in it's vagueness,
16:05 God would make Himself clear wouldn't He?
16:07 And so maybe in that general term
16:09 He's saying all of it.
16:11 It's the act itself. And it's really not that vague.
16:14 He's not specific because He's being inclusive
16:16 that all of it is not.
16:18 He's just dealing with the act itself,
16:20 He's not dealing with the person's commitment
16:22 or promiscuity or faithfulness or lack of faithfulness.
16:25 He's dealing simply with the act itself.
16:27 Now, Mike, you have Romans Chapter 1
16:31 this is the Old Testament
16:33 we have a counter part in the New Testament
16:35 that pretty much says the same thing.
16:37 So why don't you read that verse
16:39 on your tablet there, and let us know what is there.
16:42 Okay.
16:43 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie,
16:46 and worshipped and served the creature
16:48 more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.
16:51 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections
16:54 for even their women did change the natural use into that
16:57 which is against nature and likewise also the men,
17:00 leaving the natural use of the woman,
17:02 burned in their lust one toward another;
17:05 men with men working that which is unseemly,
17:07 and receiving in themselves that recompence
17:10 of their error which was meet."
17:12 Okay, do you see this as a parallel
17:14 to the verse in Leviticus?
17:15 Yeah, and you know what
17:17 when this scripture really came to my mind
17:20 I really kind of detached from it
17:22 somewhat because I didn't have
17:25 any natural affection for the opposite sex at all,
17:29 and from the earliest time I could remember,
17:31 I remember having those attraction to the same sex.
17:35 And so when I came out into gay life,
17:38 I wasn't seeking for sex with men,
17:41 I was seeking for intimacy with men,
17:43 that was the void that was in my life.
17:45 And so what I found was that
17:46 I had to actually engage in homosexual sex
17:49 to get the affection and the intimacy
17:51 that I was seeking for and what happened is
17:53 I became derailed and I believe
17:55 the fulfillment of this verse is that
17:57 then my sexual addiction started to promote
18:00 because then I became more obsessed
18:02 with the sexual act rather than the intimacy
18:04 which was what I was seeking initially.
18:06 And so it didn't take the enemy long
18:09 to derail me into thinking
18:11 what I was actually seeking for was the intimacy
18:13 and which turned into a sexual addiction
18:15 which drove that even more
18:17 because even less was I getting the fulfillment
18:19 of the intimacy that I was desperate for.
18:22 As I look at this verse too, I know there are,
18:25 you know, there's different ways
18:26 people can relate to this verses
18:27 there's the, you can just reject them,
18:29 we can try to revise them or we can accept them
18:32 or we can accept them and just reject them
18:35 because we don't want to follow them.
18:36 But as I look at the text,
18:38 verse 25 talks about the Creator
18:40 which is the owner and it takes us
18:42 back to Genesis showing God's original plan
18:45 and then verse 26 talks about women changing that plan
18:51 and going against nature
18:53 and then verse 27 talks about men,
18:56 leaving the natural use of the women
18:58 burning in their lust one toward another,
19:01 men with men,
19:02 so it's a perfect parallel to Leviticus
19:05 and it's talking about the original plan the Creator
19:08 and then the deviation from that plan and,
19:13 I know this is a tough text and I've heard I think,
19:16 Mike, you shared with me that there's a gay Bible,
19:20 many in the gay community
19:22 they don't believe that these verses,
19:25 really just should be there.
19:27 So they've created their own Bible
19:30 and in their Bible these verses are not there.
19:32 Is that correct?
19:33 Right, so this thing that I was looking at last night
19:36 it was a statement that said if the Bible doesn't speak
19:38 against homosexuality like the liberals say
19:41 then why does the gay Bible created
19:44 removing all the references to homosexuality.
19:46 So if they've taken out the verses
19:48 that they say are innocuous
19:50 and you know they don't meet anything
19:52 then what would be the purpose
19:53 of taking them out in the first place?
19:55 You know my boyfriend admitted that he found that
19:59 I've been baptized into a Christian church.
20:01 He dragged me to the gay church
20:03 and we spoke to the priest then
20:04 and she went over all the verses
20:06 in the Old and the New Testament
20:08 and gave me her understanding of that
20:10 again I was desperate to keep my boyfriend.
20:12 I had no intention of letting go
20:14 of not only my identity
20:15 but also my boyfriend but you know,
20:17 even as she spoke, it's like I was,
20:21 I was following Jesus Christ.
20:23 All I knew was that He loved me
20:24 for who I was and as she spoke
20:26 it's like the Holy Spirit just reasoned with me
20:28 and I could realize that, that didn't make sense
20:31 what she was saying.
20:32 I wanted to believe her
20:33 and I truly wanted to keep my boyfriend
20:35 but I walked away realizing that now that's not clear
20:38 and that doesn't even make sense
20:40 even though I still was you know,
20:42 in a relationship with my boyfriend.
20:44 So you were exposed at that time
20:45 to the revisionist interpretation of those texts,
20:49 and you just really you're conscience
20:51 just told you I just don't buy it.
20:53 But it created more confusion, Steve.
20:55 Sure, I can understand I mean
20:56 if you're in a gay relationship
20:58 and then you read a verse like that what do I do?
21:01 Well, then I started to get angry at God
21:04 and I said how dare You made me gay
21:06 and then tell me I'm an abomination.
21:08 And I remember crying out and saying that's not fair
21:11 but in my naivety not knowing what the scriptures
21:16 and I knew they condemn homosexuality
21:18 but I also bought into the lie that God made me that way.
21:21 But as I continued to pursue and demand
21:24 that He give those answers
21:26 and I think that God can handle that
21:28 because it was desperation to hang on
21:30 to Jesus Christ and my boyfriend
21:32 but the Lord slowly started to reveal to me
21:34 that He had something beyond anything
21:36 that I could even imagine available for me
21:38 and as I continue to pursue Him,
21:40 He brought me answers to those questions.
21:41 So your confusion finally went away
21:43 and you gave up the boyfriend and you stuck with the manual?
21:47 No I told the Lord
21:48 that if He wanted me out of that relationship
21:50 He was going to have to do it Himself
21:51 and that I was gonna dig in my heels
21:53 and prove to Him that I can be monogamous
21:55 and what was amazing is I said
21:56 if You want me out You have to do it.
21:58 So he got you out.
21:59 He went right to it. Yeah.
22:00 Pastor Ron, you mentioned there's a--
22:02 how did you respond to these tough texts
22:04 when you were living the gay lifestyle?
22:06 When I fell into the gay life,
22:11 I actually had a degree in theology,
22:12 I had recently graduated with a degree in theology
22:16 on my way to medical school,
22:19 I planned to be a medical missionary,
22:21 but to me the Bible was clear.
22:25 I just didn't have
22:26 an understanding about my salvation
22:29 and I didn't reject the Word of God,
22:31 I rejected God himself.
22:36 I just separated from the church
22:38 from Christianity because in my mind,
22:42 I knew what the Bible said,
22:44 I didn't try to rationalize it away,
22:47 I didn't try to reinterpret,
22:49 I just looked at it and said I can't do this.
22:53 I mean, this is who I am, I don't know
22:55 where I fit into all of this,
22:57 I didn't know why I was struggling
22:59 with all of this all my life, I didn't know why I was gay,
23:03 but I became a bit angry with God
23:06 because the Bible was telling me
23:08 that I needed to be like Jesus,
23:10 but Jesus was not like me.
23:12 In other words I thought of Him as God and yes,
23:14 He could follow the law of God
23:17 because He was God
23:18 and He had an advantage over me
23:19 and I became angry with Him
23:21 because He expected me to live up to His standard
23:24 and it was impossible.
23:26 So I just went into the world bitter
23:28 and angry against God never questioning His word,
23:32 but just accepting that I could not measure up.
23:36 And so you believe that some people revise it,
23:38 some people take them out, others believe them
23:40 but just don't want to follow them
23:42 or feel like they can't,
23:43 feel like they can't follow them like in your case
23:45 and then you just got angry with God--
23:47 But I knew that if I ever found the answers,
23:51 that I'd be back where I started
23:53 that I'd be back in the same church,
23:55 you know, the same denomination,
23:57 I'd go forward from there, I didn't fault the Word of God,
24:02 I just didn't understand where I'd fit in and I gave up.
24:05 And so to make a long story short
24:06 we only have a few more minutes.
24:09 At some point you both realized that even though you were doing
24:14 what the Bible said was wrong
24:16 that there still was a God who loved you,
24:19 that even though He pointed out sin
24:22 and that you're departed from the plan,
24:24 He still loved you enough to do something
24:28 major for you to give His son for you,
24:31 so He could bring you back to the plan.
24:33 And we had to just come to the point
24:35 where we accepted the word as it read,
24:38 trusted that He could do what He said He could do.
24:42 I accepted Jesus with all my feelings and emotions
24:46 still corrupted with all the temptations
24:49 with all the desires that I learned
24:51 to let my mind rule the body and not the other way around,
24:56 not to be governed by my feelings and emotions
24:59 but let my mind start governing those feelings and emotions.
25:03 Wonderful, Mike.
25:04 But for me it was a little different.
25:06 Again I was such a poser
25:08 and I didn't like to make people upset.
25:10 I knew that God existed, I even believed
25:12 that He loved me but I always had this image
25:15 that God was like my dad, there is arbitrary,
25:18 that the rules change and that He basically
25:20 was trying to cheat me out of something.
25:22 And so I didn't trust Him.
25:24 He had to earn back my trust.
25:26 But as I continued to pursue Jesus Christ
25:28 as Jesus got me out of situations and started to--
25:32 I understood that and I was drawn to that love,
25:34 then He started to show me who the real father was.
25:37 And then as He delivered me over and over again
25:40 many times in many years,
25:42 I started to see Him a little bit differently
25:44 that I could trust Him.
25:46 But I believed that for many homosexuals,
25:48 we've experienced so much rejection
25:51 and can't trust anyone.
25:53 And I think that it's a very normal reaction
25:57 to turn away from God and to be angry at God
25:59 because of all the rejection that we've experienced.
26:01 And I believe that we put that on God.
26:03 In John 17, it talks about "This is life eternal,
26:07 that they may know Me the only true God,
26:09 and Christ Jesus, whom you have sent."
26:11 Amen. Thank you.
26:14 This book is the manual.
26:16 This is the owner's manual, God has given it to us.
26:19 It tells us what's right, what's wrong,
26:22 and what's best for us just like an owner's manual,
26:23 the car tells us what kind of gas
26:25 we need to put in the gas tank
26:27 so the car will run efficiently and not have a breakdown.
26:31 God has told us His original plan,
26:35 He's told us what's right, what's wrong,
26:37 what a deviation is from His plan
26:39 and yet I'm encouraged
26:40 by the very same book of Romans
26:42 that points out the deviation in chapter 5,
26:45 it says in verse 8
26:47 "That God has demonstrated His love toward us,
26:51 in that, while were yet sinners,
26:54 Christ died for us."
26:56 Even though we have sinned, we've all sinned,
26:58 we've all done things that we shouldn't have done,
27:00 and God still loves us, He loves us a lot.
27:03 He loves you a lot and our hope is that
27:07 that love will break into your life,
27:09 it'll change your heart
27:10 and it'll lead you to give your whole life to Him
27:12 and to follow the owner's manual
27:14 so you can be happy.
27:16 If you'd like to order the 13 part
27:18 Coming Out series for $34.95 plus shipping,
27:21 call 1-800-782-4253, or write to White Horse Media,
27:26 PO Box 1139, Newport, Washington, 99156.
27:30 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
27:32 and Mike Carducci are each available
27:34 to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:36 To schedule a speaking engagement,
27:37 contact Coming Out Ministries
27:39 by calling 360-936-8514
27:43 or visit


Revised 2015-01-15