Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Pr. Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000005
00:09 Love, lust, Hollywood, God, and you,
00:14 that's our topic next on Coming Out.
00:59 Welcome to part five of Coming Out.
01:02 I'm here with Pastor Ron Woolsey and Wayne Blakely,
01:06 two of the cofounders of Coming Out ministries.
01:09 We have been discussing a variety of issues.
01:12 It's no secret that letters and it's a little,
01:15 I guess it's an acronym or it's a sequence of letters
01:18 LGBTQ are being read around the world.
01:24 You can see them on the internet,
01:25 people read them in textbooks,
01:28 they're being discussed in the media,
01:30 in books, novels, talk shows.
01:33 These letters mean L stands for lesbian,
01:37 G stands for gay, B is bisexual,
01:40 T is transgender, and Q is questioning.
01:45 A lot of people are questioning these days
01:47 and at the heart of this controversy,
01:50 at least one of the biggest issues
01:52 of all concerning the appropriateness
01:54 or inappropriateness or what's right
01:56 and what's wrong with these kind of activities
02:00 and movements is the issue of love.
02:02 The title of our program today is called "I Love You?"
02:07 And we're here to discuss what love is about,
02:10 the nature of love,
02:11 some of the controversies surrounding love
02:14 and what really is true love, based upon an ancient book
02:19 which we believe in, which is the Bible.
02:22 Gentlemen, again thank you for being here.
02:25 Thank you. This has been great so far.
02:26 I've just appreciated your stories,
02:28 you've been telling me your stories,
02:30 and now we want to talk about love.
02:33 Love is a word that's tossed around a lot.
02:37 I'm married and I love my wife, I love my children.
02:40 I also love to go running.
02:43 One of our camera operators
02:44 who's listening to this just said a little bit ago,
02:47 "I overheard her say that she loves her hair".
02:50 I'm assuming that it was a good hair day for her.
02:53 You know, people love chocolate.
02:55 We use the word love all kinds of ways.
02:58 But we really need to understand,
03:00 at least according to the Bible
03:02 what love is really all about, don't you agree?
03:06 And, Pastor Ron, you told me just today, earlier today
03:10 that during the time when you were,
03:12 after you had come out of the closet
03:14 and had gone into a openly
03:18 homosexual relationship with a man,
03:20 you told me honestly that you love that man.
03:27 So I want you just to tell me,
03:28 you know, clarify that for me, you know.
03:31 Some people would say, well, that couldn't be real love.
03:35 But, you know, could it be real love?
03:37 Well, sure it can be real love.
03:38 Actually during my time in the gay life
03:40 I had three lifetime relationships.
03:44 Okay, three lifetime.
03:45 That's right, three lifetime relationships
03:47 and I loved each one of them, you know.
03:50 I mean, that was my ultimate love experience temporarily.
03:55 In the last situation
03:57 we were very much in love with each other
04:00 and we were emotionally bonded, we were physically bonded.
04:05 The element that was missing of course was the spiritual.
04:09 And as I began searching and studying God's word
04:12 and the spirituality began developing within me,
04:15 that created a void between us in a way
04:19 because he was not and I was
04:23 and I learned to love Jesus more.
04:26 And that's what pulled me out of that relationship,
04:28 but even then, Steve, in ending that relationship,
04:32 it was an extremely traumatic experience
04:36 because we dearly loved each other.
04:37 I mean, it was true love, but it was misplaced.
04:42 We were loving the wrong people.
04:44 We were not in harmony with God's will.
04:46 I think this is what Satan does.
04:48 He takes something beautiful
04:50 and he attaches it to something that is wrong,
04:52 and he uses something God created in the wrong way
04:57 to bring great unhappiness and sadness and trauma.
05:00 And that's what happened in my situation.
05:03 And that story is in your book, the book that you've written.
05:07 Yes, and that's one reason
05:08 that this young man just went berserk
05:10 when we were going through our separation
05:12 because we loved each other so much.
05:15 And he felt he was being totally abandoned.
05:17 And he-- It was as if he was possessed by seven demons,
05:22 and he attacked me and almost killed me in the process.
05:25 It doesn't sound like love.
05:27 I mean, he was desperate. He did not want to let go.
05:31 And, Wayne, speaking of desperate
05:33 and speaking of love,
05:34 share what you told me earlier, your quest for love.
05:40 Well, I was rejected by both birth parents.
05:44 And so early on I was really floundering
05:47 and not knowing what love really meant.
05:50 And everyone wants to matter,
05:53 they want to belong, they want to be loved.
05:56 And so I began a search
05:57 and I began to find that physical connection
06:02 was what I was beginning to interpret as love.
06:04 It was very emotional.
06:06 So I thought that if I was engaging
06:09 in physical affection or in sex with someone
06:12 that it translated to mean love.
06:14 But of course as the world largely knows
06:17 that you can be taken for granted,
06:21 you can be rejected,
06:22 you know, as soon as the act is actually even over,
06:25 you've actually been used not loved.
06:28 So I arrived with a great confusion,
06:32 I didn't understand the love of God.
06:34 I read about it, but I hadn't made it
06:37 a practical application to my life.
06:39 So for years and years
06:41 I kept looking for love in the wrong places,
06:45 and till I met Jesus Christ one day who proposed to me
06:49 that I needed to get to know Him.
06:50 Well, it sounds like a marriage relationship,
06:52 He proposed to you. Yeah, absolutely.
06:55 And just to clarify I'm sure that,
06:57 you know, these issues searching for love,
06:59 wanting love, misplaced love,
07:02 this doesn't only apply to the gay,
07:05 lesbian, transgender community.
07:07 This applies to all of us, how many people are out there
07:11 that are looking for love in the wrong place.
07:14 And, you know, we can get confused
07:17 about the nature of love,
07:20 we can experience lust and we can call it love.
07:25 We're just-- I think we're just pretty
07:27 messed up down here in this fallen world.
07:29 We're all confused, and we need some clarity.
07:32 And the good news is that there is clarity in this book,
07:36 in this ancient book.
07:37 This is the basis of everything that we're doing here.
07:39 We're not ashamed of that. That's right.
07:41 That we believe in the Bible
07:42 and we believe the Bible is a good book.
07:46 Absolutely. It is a clarifying book.
07:48 It is a book that will help us
07:51 in the struggles that we are in,
07:53 and ultimately it will help us to get to a wonderful place
07:58 which is where we all want to ultimately go.
08:00 Yeah. This is life sustaining.
08:01 That's right, that's right.
08:03 It's like an umbilical cord for,
08:05 you know, a fetus getting that life from the mother.
08:09 This is really like an umbilical cord
08:12 giving us life and information from God.
08:15 Now let's talk about God and love.
08:18 Wayne, I think you had a text you wanted to share with us.
08:20 Yeah, I think 1 John 4:8 tells us that
08:24 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."
08:29 So I think again right here it shows us
08:34 the definition of love needs to come from God,
08:37 from our creator.
08:38 If we're not spending the time here
08:40 to find out what that definition is,
08:43 then the enemy quickly comes about
08:45 trying to twist on God's original plan.
08:48 Yeah, in our last program
08:49 we talked about the owner's manual.
08:51 And now we'll shift to
08:52 what does the owner's manual from God
08:54 tell us about love, about this big issue.
08:57 So if somebody's listening to this
08:59 and hearing this verse, "God is love,"
09:04 what does that mean?
09:05 What kind of love?
09:07 You know, a lot of people hate God.
09:09 They don't think He loves them at all.
09:10 They think that He just--
09:12 He doesn't like what they're doing.
09:14 Maybe they've had a skewed perception of Him
09:16 as they were growing up.
09:17 They just think there's-- if there is anybody up there,
09:19 He's probably just a big meaning in the sky
09:21 who just-- He doesn't love me,
09:23 He just wants to point out my faults.
09:26 You know, how do we understand this verse
09:28 that says that God is love?
09:31 I think often people misconstrue love and feelings.
09:35 So if your feelings don't confirm
09:39 what you expect to be love,
09:40 then you don't consider it to be love.
09:42 But God is a disciplinary God as well.
09:44 So while it may not always feel good,
09:47 God is looking out for us
09:48 if we put our trust and our faith in Him.
09:51 And if we look at the life of Jesus Himself,
09:55 Jesus in His life,
09:56 He gives us the definition and the clarification.
09:59 I think of this text when He says
10:02 if You've seen the Father, you've seen Me,
10:03 and we read that God is love.
10:05 And that may seem kind of nebulous to us,
10:08 but if we look at the life of Jesus,
10:10 His whole life spelled out what that text means.
10:12 Is it safe to say that love, that real love,
10:15 that God's love is multifaceted?
10:19 That it has different dimensions?
10:21 I know from my reading of the Bible,
10:23 it tells me that God is a just God.
10:26 He's love, He's just, He's also extremely merciful.
10:31 He's a merciful God
10:33 so He has all of these different qualities.
10:36 And as I look at it, really the core of His being is love
10:40 and that His justice which tells us
10:43 what's right and wrong and His decision
10:46 that He's actually going to He's gonna punish sin someday.
10:50 And His mercy that He doesn't want that happen to us,
10:53 that He wants us to come to Him
10:57 and avoid the inevitable if we stay in sin.
11:01 That both His justice and His mercy
11:03 are manifestations of His heart of love.
11:07 Could I touch on the word mercy for just a second?
11:10 God has always been merciful, but until the fall of man,
11:15 the universe never saw that dimension of His love.
11:19 And through us, through people who are redeemed,
11:22 the universe is seeing a dimension of God's love
11:25 that they would never have seen otherwise.
11:27 To me that's an amazing thing.
11:28 His mercy is a part of His character and His love,
11:31 but it was never seen until someone like
11:34 Wayne and Ron and Mike come along
11:36 and then the universe goes--
11:37 And Steve. Wow!
11:39 Well, yeah, maybe even Steve. You know, they go, "Wow!"
11:43 We got different temptations, but sin is sin.
11:44 God, that's what mercy is, that's what love is.
11:48 While you touched on mercy,
11:49 I'd like to touch on grace because when we look at love,
11:54 we look at all three of these coming into play.
11:57 And often people will say, well, God's grace,
11:59 you know, has covered you.
12:01 And, yeah, God's grace-- love is not cheap.
12:05 God shed His blood for us.
12:07 He spent His life here
12:09 to give us the definition of love.
12:10 So while He covers us with grace,
12:13 it's not for us to ever think
12:15 that we can be presumptuous and continue in sin.
12:18 Now let's talk about what the Bible says about love,
12:21 true love and discipline.
12:24 That's a word that, you know, many times love and discipline
12:27 don't seem to go together like oil and water.
12:30 But they do go together in the Bible.
12:33 So share with us some scriptures about that.
12:39 Wayne, I think you have Revelation 3?
12:40 Yeah, I do.
12:41 Revelation 3:19 says to us,
12:46 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten,
12:50 therefore be zealous, and repent."
12:54 So it gives clarity to me
12:57 that God put His law in place as guardrails for me.
13:01 He loved me so much
13:02 that He didn't want me to experience things
13:05 that the enemy has in store
13:06 if I'm not paying attention to the word
13:09 and sticking to what God's plan for me is.
13:11 And so when I get outside the line sometimes,
13:14 God has to do or allow certain things to happen to me,
13:17 consequences to happen to me of my own choices
13:20 which I bear today in the life that I lived.
13:24 Some of the temptations
13:25 that are still present in my life today
13:27 are because of having made
13:29 so many wrong choices over and over and over.
13:31 They're engrained, they're stained on me.
13:34 But He brings me back, points out to me
13:37 that He allowed those things to happen
13:39 so that I could truly see
13:40 what genuine love is, true love is.
13:43 we actually can build on that,
13:47 "For whom the Lord loveth He chastens,
13:50 and scourges every son whom He receiveth."
13:53 And I think we've all been scourged
13:56 by our parents time to time.
13:59 And I remember when my mother would say,
14:01 "This hurts me more than you."
14:03 And I would say, "Yeah, right."
14:06 But now as a father myself
14:08 and you, Steve, you know as a parent,
14:10 it truly hurts the parent
14:12 to punish or discipline a child.
14:14 And yet that is love.
14:16 I mean, it should be a loving act
14:20 because we want to train these children
14:23 to walk in the way of the Lord.
14:27 And I think of the example of all of the work
14:30 that I've done in Romania, I've been there many times.
14:33 And I see these little street urchin children
14:35 that have been put out by their families
14:37 because they can't afford to feed them anymore.
14:39 And they roam the streets like animals.
14:42 And my heart goes out and I feel love towards them
14:45 and I'd like to adopt one and bring home.
14:47 But the thing of it is
14:48 I don't love that child and leave him where he is,
14:52 and God doesn't love us that way.
14:54 We love-- I would love that child
14:56 enough to accept him into my home and clean him up,
15:00 shave his head, burn his clothes,
15:02 soak him in a hot tub for a week,
15:03 deworm him, delouse him,
15:05 give him good food, good clothes,
15:08 you know, good things, good education.
15:10 As Mike says, don't forget the puppy, you know.
15:12 And that's the way God is with us.
15:15 He loves us and He disciplines us
15:18 and He trains us to be like Himself.
15:20 And He gives us the puppy. Yeah.
15:22 You know, I've learned that lesson especially
15:26 since I've become a dad.
15:28 And I know you can relate to this, you know.
15:29 I have a little boy, he's 9 years old,
15:31 Seth, and I have a little girl Abigail, Abi, she's 6.
15:36 And I love my kids more than life itself.
15:38 I would sacrifice my life for them, I really would.
15:41 There's nothing I want more than
15:42 for my kids to be in heaven.
15:44 And because I love them so much,
15:47 I want to train them to do what's right.
15:51 And when as different things happen in our home,
15:54 I could go into a whole host of examples,
15:56 I know you could, too.
15:57 If either Seth or Abi,
15:58 you know, one time recently Seth and I,
16:01 we were playing a little board game,
16:02 and he finagled.
16:04 And he-- you know, I was kind of looking the other way,
16:07 and he rolled a little dice, you know, to move.
16:09 I think it was monopoly.
16:11 And he saw that it didn't-- rolled the dice,
16:15 didn't come up with the number that he wanted
16:18 and one of them fell off the board.
16:21 And so he grabbed it,
16:22 looked at that, figured that out,
16:23 this is not what I want and so he rolled it again.
16:26 And then I caught him on that, and I told him, I said,
16:29 "Seth, you know, you're really
16:32 not being honest with that situation.
16:35 That first roll was the roll that you rolled.
16:38 And because you didn't want that number
16:41 where you want it to go, you changed it."
16:45 And actually gave him a Bible verse later on.
16:46 I said, "I want you to read,"
16:47 I think it was Luke 16:10 that says,
16:49 "He who is faithful in that
16:51 which is least is faithful also in much."
16:53 And then I talked to him about that.
16:54 And I'm trying to instill in him
16:57 through this practical experience
16:58 the importance of telling the truth and being truthful
17:03 and practicing the truth even if it's not something
17:06 that you may exactly want.
17:08 So it's just a small thing, but because I love my boy,
17:12 I'm willing to discipline him, to correct him, to instruct him
17:17 because I want what's best for him.
17:19 And I do this over and over and over again.
17:22 And I've learned that because,
17:24 you know, God loves me like that verse
17:26 that you read, both of you,
17:28 Jesus said "Those whom I love I rebuke,
17:32 and I discipline, repent."
17:33 It gives us moral character. That's right.
17:35 And sometimes as parents this is an all day process,
17:39 and so it should help us understand
17:40 with our Heavenly Father it's 24x7 also towards us.
17:44 And He has a lot of things to deal with, much more than us
17:46 just rolling a dice on a game of monopoly.
17:49 As we get bigger, of course, we have big issues.
17:52 And God loves us and so these verses say
17:55 that He disciplines us.
17:57 Now I want to shift to love and morality,
18:00 the moral nature of love because we're just so confused.
18:03 We grow up, we're just--
18:05 we don't really know what love is.
18:07 We hear love, we see Hollywood, love each other,
18:09 you know, they leave their spouses
18:11 because they love this person or that person.
18:13 And love is thrown around all over the place.
18:16 And yet according to this book,
18:18 what is the connection between love and morality?
18:23 Well, love is a principle.
18:26 And when we apply love it needs to be
18:28 in harmony with the principles that God has given us.
18:30 Otherwise, you know, it gets misplaced
18:33 and causes all kinds of heartache and difficulty.
18:36 We can't--
18:37 If we just go with our feelings and emotions really
18:40 and follow puppy love it's really following lust
18:44 and letting that dictate our behavior
18:47 and our choices rather than our mind
18:49 which should be operating in harmony with the will of God.
18:54 There's a verse in Romans 13: 10.
18:59 Have we talked about that?
19:00 Ron, would you like to read that?
19:01 Romans 13:10.
19:02 "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor.
19:05 Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
19:07 And that's stated over and over in the Bible with--
19:11 Jesus said in John 14:15,
19:13 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
19:16 And one that I really like is 1 John 5:3 in which he says,
19:19 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.
19:23 And His commandments are not grievous."
19:26 His commandments are really the definition of love
19:28 because they are a reflection of His character,
19:32 and God is love.
19:35 You know, it helps me understand today that,
19:38 you know, as I pray, and I pray every day
19:41 that God will help me fall more and more in love with him.
19:44 And it makes sense for the verse that says,
19:46 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
19:48 And, you know, we have verses in both
19:52 the New and the Old Testaments that tell us,
19:55 you know, the importance of keeping His commandments.
19:58 But we don't want to do that out of a checklist notion.
20:03 The only way that I'm gonna regard
20:05 God is if I fall in love with Him,
20:07 if I know that His ways are perfect.
20:09 And that if I abide in Him and surrender to Him
20:13 that He will bless me.
20:14 And so as I walk with God today
20:17 and I see that I surrender and I give things over to Him,
20:19 that I deny self as He asks me to do, to live for Him,
20:24 that He greatly blesses my life.
20:26 We can't always see on the other side of the wall.
20:30 So it takes an act of faith and believing in God
20:33 and His truth and His Word,
20:36 that He reveals to us on the other side
20:39 of that wall are beautiful, wonderful things for us,
20:42 rewards for us for having kept His commandments.
20:45 You know, when Jesus says,
20:46 "If you love Me, keep My commandments,"
20:48 that's really a very reasonable statement.
20:50 You know, as husbands
20:52 we probably have heard our wives say in the past,
20:55 "If you really love me..."
20:57 you know, and then we know what's coming.
21:00 I mean, we use this term and we even may say
21:03 the same things to our wives.
21:05 And Jesus is simply saying,
21:06 you know, if you really love Me,
21:08 this is what pleases Me, this is what makes Me happy.
21:12 And so it's perfectly logical and reasonable.
21:15 That's right.
21:16 In our family we go through the Ten Commandments a lot.
21:19 And my son especially, he's older than Aby,
21:22 and he knows the Ten Commandments
21:23 from top to bottom.
21:24 And it just makes sense to me
21:27 in my relationship with my wife and with my kids
21:30 that to put God first is part of God's moral love,
21:34 that's what's best for me,
21:35 it's what's best for our family,
21:36 not to have any idols, not to take God's name in vain,
21:39 to keep God's day holy, to honor my father and mother.
21:43 We teach our kids, "Honor your parents"
21:45 because that's what's best for a happy home.
21:47 Don't murder, don't commit adultery.
21:49 I tell the kids, you know, adultery would be,
21:53 they want to know what that text means,
21:54 so I tell them, "Well, I'm married to your mommy.
21:57 And if I were to go out and find another mommy,
22:00 that would be adultery.
22:01 And God does not want that.
22:03 And because I love Mommy, which I do,
22:05 I don't want to do that."
22:07 And so love then has a context, and it has moral principles.
22:14 And I don't want to steal, I don't wan to lie,
22:16 I don't want to covet,
22:17 I want to love God with my whole heart,
22:19 soul, mind and strength and my neighbor as myself.
22:21 And those principles of love are moral principles.
22:25 You know, I think one thing
22:27 that God kind of revealed to me,
22:29 simple thing here recently was the fact that,
22:32 you know, He's put these things in place for us.
22:35 And we find the world just really bending things.
22:38 And I think that if it was apropos God's plan
22:43 for gays and lesbians today to be parents,
22:48 there would have been a commandment
22:49 that would have said,
22:50 "Honor thy father and thy father,
22:52 or honor thy mother and thy mother."
22:54 But that's absent, and that's a big indicator to me
22:56 that this isn't part of God's plan for us.
22:59 You know, one way I really like to go through the commandments,
23:04 I put these two together,
23:05 and I just take the words of Jesus,
23:07 "If you love Me, don't have other gods before Me.
23:10 If you love Me--" You know, and I go through them.
23:13 And when you come to the seventh commandment,
23:15 if you say, quote Jesus,
23:17 "If you love Me, don't commit adultery.
23:19 If you love Me--"
23:20 And see this is what I applied to my life,
23:22 and I'm sure you did, too, Wayne.
23:24 If you love Me,
23:26 don't be involved in this kind of relationship.
23:29 It's not in harmony.
23:30 If you really love Me,
23:32 you need to bring this to an end.
23:34 And that's what happened with me.
23:35 I learned to love Him more.
23:38 And I think in many cases what we call love,
23:41 in many cases, not all cases,
23:42 but in many cases it's really just lust.
23:45 It's lust, it's not really love.
23:47 And God has given us the Ten Commandments.
23:50 And when we think about this whole sexuality issue,
23:52 I mean, like you said the fifth commandment does not say
23:54 "Honor your father and father."
23:55 It says "Honor your father and mother."
23:57 And the second commandment talks about the sins of fathers
24:00 being visited upon the children,
24:02 the tenth commandment talks about
24:04 not coveting your neighbor's wife
24:07 or anything that belongs to your neighbor,
24:09 and the seventh commandment,
24:10 you know, is respecting the marriage relationship,
24:11 not committing adultery.
24:13 And when you really honestly look at the big ten,
24:15 God's law of love, it basically, not basically,
24:18 but it does support traditional marriage.
24:21 Husbands, wives, children, adultery,
24:24 God's original plan in the Garden of Eden
24:26 as was revealed by the owner's manual,
24:29 which we talked about previously.
24:31 And real love, true love, biblical love is God's attempt,
24:36 He loves us, and He wants us to bring us
24:39 into harmony with His law of love
24:42 because that is really what's best for us,
24:44 it's what's best for our children,
24:46 it's what's best for our society.
24:48 And one of these days
24:50 it will become the law of the land in the new earth
24:53 when we will be living with our God forever and ever.
24:57 And doesn't Jesus reveal Himself
25:00 through the marriage institution to children?
25:04 This is one way children learn more about God, who is love,
25:08 if they have a proper family.
25:11 He instituted that marriage to help portray
25:15 and teach children about Himself.
25:17 So God can still love us and not approve,
25:19 is that correct?
25:20 Yes. Of everything we do.
25:22 Yeah, so if God can love sinners, can we?
25:26 You know, that's a good thing to point out
25:29 because I see today as we go and we speak around the world,
25:34 we meet many parents
25:37 who are compromised often about their children
25:40 who are living openly in a gay lifestyle
25:43 that they didn't plan for them or a gay culture,
25:45 however you want to term it.
25:49 I think that first of all
25:50 the enemy goes after young people
25:52 because he wants to get them
25:53 before they can get rooted in the word of God.
25:56 But often when he grabs the children,
25:58 he'll reach right behind them
26:00 and try to grab the parents, too,
26:02 by saying that if you really love your children,
26:05 you're going to put a stamp of approval on their sin.
26:09 And so you would attend, you know, a gay wedding,
26:12 or you would do something that you're indicating
26:15 that you love them through that.
26:16 Yeah, we'll talk about that more in a future program,
26:19 that's a big issue.
26:21 I'd like to close with Romans 5:8 says that
26:25 "God demonstrated His love, it's His love,
26:28 this kind of love toward us, in that,
26:31 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
26:37 God's love is a pure love, it's a true love.
26:39 It's a love that doesn't overlook
26:41 and doesn't revise and doesn't just ignore sin.
26:45 It's a love that manifested itself in God
26:49 giving His own Son to deal with sin.
26:54 And the way He dealt with it
26:56 is that He took it into his mind and heart,
26:58 and He paid the ultimate price for you and for me.
27:01 He died for our sins and rose from the dead.
27:04 And He wants to forgive us and change our lives
27:07 and prepare us to love Him forever
27:10 so we can be happy throughout all eternity.
27:14 We'll be back with more of Coming Out.
27:17 If you would like to order the 13 part
27:19 Coming Out series for $34.95 plus shipping,
27:22 call 1-800-782-4253, or write to White Horse Media,
27:26 PO Box 1139, Newport, Washington, 99156.
27:30 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
27:32 and Mike Carducci are each available
27:34 to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:36 To schedule a speaking engagement,
27:38 contact Coming Out Ministries by calling 360-936-8514,
27:43 or visit comingoutministries.org.