Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Wayne Blakely, Mike Carducci
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000006
00:08 Homophobia sounds like a terrible disease.
00:12 What it's all about?
00:13 You'll find out by watching Coming Out.
01:02 Welcome back to part six of Coming Out.
01:05 This is a special series dealing with
01:07 a very big subject, a controversial subject,
01:09 a hot subject, an emotional subject.
01:11 We're dealing with gay issues, lesbian issues,
01:14 homosexuality, the Bible, and the love of Jesus Christ.
01:18 And I'm here again with
01:21 Wayne Blakely and Mike Carducci,
01:23 who are co-founders of the Coming Out ministry
01:26 that is really attempting, with all your hearts and souls,
01:31 to bring clarity to these issues,
01:34 to deal with them effectively,
01:35 and to try to help people
01:37 who are struggling with the issues
01:39 that you have struggled with in your own lives.
01:41 So again I want to thank you for being part of this.
01:46 It's a blessing to a lot of people
01:49 to have you here.
01:50 Thank you, Steve.
01:51 I want to start out by reading from Webster's dictionary.
01:57 It's a big dip, big book, here big dictionary.
01:59 And under the word "homophobia",
02:02 this is what it says,
02:04 "Homophobia is an irrational fear
02:08 of homosexuality or of homosexuals."
02:13 So that's our topic today, is homophobia.
02:16 Is homophobia, is it real, is it a myth?
02:21 Is it something that ever happens?
02:23 Let's just start with the church.
02:25 Does it ever happen in the church of Jesus Christ?
02:29 Talk to me, talk to us.
02:31 Yeah, absolutely, I have to say that it is.
02:36 When I met Jesus Christ as my savior,
02:40 convicting me that my life wasn't,
02:43 I wasn't living it according to His plan.
02:46 I thought the church by now
02:47 probably has a reach out to gays and homosexuals
02:50 and unfortunately what I found
02:53 when I came back in was this irrational fear
02:56 and so I was in met with a great deal of adversity.
03:01 I'm still in met with the adversity today
03:03 in going and speaking into church congregations,
03:05 or to get the invitation or for--
03:08 while it's been discussed over a church board,
03:11 and there is this fear.
03:13 This fear that's there and it's multi-faceted,
03:15 which I'm sure we'll find out as we talk about it here.
03:18 I was very uncomfortable, it's not right,
03:22 but we have some responsibility in the process.
03:25 Okay, Mike.
03:27 Well you know, at 20 years old when I left the church.
03:29 I couldn't find any resources or anyone
03:32 that I even felt comfortable
03:33 to share this deep dark secret with.
03:35 And then at 40 years old
03:36 coming back into church culture.
03:38 I still came back, the Lord was leading me
03:40 and even five years after,
03:43 I was walking back in church culture,
03:45 I was at a board meeting
03:47 and I was asked to pitch the idea for men's ministry,
03:50 and one of the highly esteem doctors
03:51 that were on the board
03:52 in front of the pastor and the head elder.
03:55 This man looked at me and said,
03:56 I don't want to be running
03:57 around in the woods like a bunch of gay men.
03:59 And so I realized
04:01 that there still is homophobia in our church.
04:03 Even after I professed that I don't even walk
04:06 in that culture anymore.
04:08 So definitely homophobia in the church is very real.
04:10 And you think that they are, I'm imagine--
04:12 I'm sure you would agree
04:13 that there are others out there,
04:15 who have probably had similar experiences.
04:17 Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.
04:18 One example that I recently had a couple of months ago
04:20 at a presentation that we made.
04:23 This man from the islands,
04:24 the Caribbean came up and he said,
04:26 you know, in his Caribbean accent he said,
04:28 you know, down in where we come from,
04:31 you know homosexuals are beat up
04:34 and they are kicked out of the church,
04:35 or whatever he said, I realized
04:37 that I had the wrong attitude about this
04:39 and you know what was amazing
04:40 is this guy was apologizing to me for the way
04:43 that he had treated other people
04:44 that were in the gay life.
04:46 What do you think is the cause
04:48 of that kind of attitude that you know--
04:52 I think with out a doubt it's ignorance,
04:54 you know, in the denomination that I'm a part of,
04:59 we haven't talked about this for basically a 150 years.
05:02 And so what happens
05:03 when you leave something in the dark,
05:05 you know, it grows like a bacteria
05:08 and not only does it effect the individual
05:10 who is afflicted and having the same sex attraction
05:13 but by not talking about it
05:14 it's hardening the hearts of those
05:16 who should be reaching out with the love of Jesus Christ.
05:20 Let's look at the Bible.
05:21 Let's look at Luke 15,
05:23 as I've been thinking about this topic,
05:27 and looking at my Bible and praying God
05:29 what verse do you want us to zero in on to just
05:33 shed some light on this subject homophobia.
05:37 My mind just went to Luke 15. Luke 15:1 and 2.
05:43 The Bible says, "Then drew near to Him."
05:46 Referring to Christ Jesus as the Him.
05:49 They came to Him, all the publicans
05:52 and those who were tax collectors really,
05:54 many of them were Jews, who work for the Romans
05:56 and who were despised by the Jews,
05:58 by many Jews, not all Jews.
06:00 "The publicans and the sinners, they came to hear him."
06:05 Meaning Jesus.
06:06 "And then verse two says
06:07 that the Pharisees, and scribes,
06:09 when they saw this they murmured
06:12 and they said, this man is welcoming sinners."
06:16 Another translation says,
06:18 "This man is receiving sinners and He's eating with them."
06:22 So here are these religious people,
06:24 the Pharisees, the scribes,
06:25 you know, they had the scripture
06:27 and they saw Jesus and they saw
06:30 the worst sort of people, all kinds of people.
06:32 The sinners, open sinners,
06:34 prostitutes, all kinds of people
06:37 and yet they were responding, and they were coming to Jesus
06:41 and Pharisees looked at that and they just said,
06:43 yuck, you know,
06:44 how can this Man be the Messiah.
06:46 He's welcoming the sinners and He's eating with them.
06:50 You know I remember our colleague,
06:52 Ron Woolsey, talked about
06:54 when he was getting counsel from a Christian counselor
06:58 basically told his wife at that time
07:00 that you should just leave him
07:01 because that type can't even changed.
07:03 So homophobia has definitely not only been in our church
07:06 but there hasn't even been any redemption available
07:10 to those that struggle with it
07:11 or who are willing to even come forward
07:13 that they struggle with it.
07:15 Now you know, as I look at this,
07:16 I mean Jesus wasn't doing the things
07:20 that the people that were coming to him were doing,
07:24 but He love them and they felt that,
07:28 and that's why it says that they drew near to Him,
07:31 they felt even though He was pure and He was clean,
07:35 He lived a Holy life, a pure life, yet He was humble
07:39 and He was loving and He drew them to Him.
07:43 And when they were coming, you know,
07:45 with praise God, they were coming
07:48 then the religious leaders looked at that
07:50 and they just said, how can He do that?
07:53 You know, how can He be that way?
07:55 That's right. He's welcoming these sinners.
07:58 And don't you think that attitude is sometimes,
08:01 may be too many times
08:03 a problem even inside His church.
08:07 Yes, yeah.
08:09 You know, when we left the program just before this,
08:11 we were talking about how love is,
08:14 does love mean approval?
08:16 And in Jesus ministry He didn't approve of the sin
08:20 and He didn't condone their sin.
08:23 But by loving them, with His pure love
08:26 He was trying to draw them,
08:27 He sought to draw them out of their sin.
08:29 That's right, and doesn't it make sense
08:31 that the church of Jesus Christ should reflect His attitude.
08:36 Absolutely. Amen.
08:37 I mean isn't that with the church is all about.
08:39 Somebody once said, the biggest room in the world
08:41 is the room for improvement.
08:43 I like that, that stuck with me for a long time.
08:46 And it sure seems to me that even in the church,
08:49 maybe especially in the church,
08:50 there is a lot of room for improvement,
08:53 and I understand that your ministry
08:55 Coming Out ministries,
08:57 you at some point in the past came out of the closet
09:00 and went into a gay lifestyle.
09:02 But then you came out of that lifestyle
09:04 and now you are, you're Christians,
09:06 you're in the church and you're trying to help church members--
09:12 To hopefully not repeat the some of the same mistakes
09:15 that were repeated against you,
09:16 and you're trying to help Christians
09:19 to become more like Jesus in the way they relate
09:23 to those who are in the gay community.
09:24 Right. Am I right in saying that?
09:26 Right. Yeah.
09:28 There were you know, my first contact with sex came
09:32 from two young Christian men when I was around 13 years old,
09:38 and that introduced to me to sex,
09:40 it actually made me begin to think
09:42 that there wasn't anything wrong with me
09:43 because we were engaged together in this,
09:46 and then they went on and they married,
09:49 and they began to do what was, what was approved of by,
09:55 you know, by the church, by God,
09:57 and I think that even today that our problem,
10:00 part of our problems within the church
10:02 that there are some past associations
10:04 that people have come in contact
10:06 with various things.
10:07 Often men in their adolescence are experimentation and stuff,
10:11 but they don't want to come around the person
10:13 who is seeking Jesus for fear of the association
10:17 and what that will make them look like,
10:19 that may be they haven't even dealt with their own sin,
10:21 and so largely what our ministry is today
10:25 is to come to church members
10:27 and to people that weren't reaching out to
10:29 and saying that we are all level
10:31 at the foot of the cross.
10:32 Can I just add? Sure.
10:33 Remember, Wayne, the story where
10:35 this well intentioned elder in your church came up
10:38 after you gave your story and said,
10:40 you know, that's a powerful testimony
10:42 but don't you think you should keep it to yourself?
10:45 And so again it was his fear of the story
10:49 or the dynamics of it being,
10:51 you know, grounded in this homosexual sin
10:53 but you know, the church--
10:54 We don't talk about it.
10:55 That's right, we don't talk about it,
10:56 we cover it up, that's just how we do and apathy,
11:00 I think has been just as damaging in Christianity
11:04 as much as it has been hate or homophobia.
11:06 So sometimes the church really has, has erred.
11:10 Yes. Christians have erred--
11:11 That's true, they think that--
11:12 I think that, you know, humbling ourselves
11:15 can only be a good thing, that we really, you know,
11:18 if we have made mistakes, that we are sorry
11:21 and that we want to do better--
11:23 In our attempt to reach out,
11:24 we may not be doing those tings but we still you know,
11:27 people are people and we need to reach,
11:29 reach out to them as Jesus did in the Bible.
11:31 Right, there was a study done
11:33 and they went to secular society
11:35 and they asked them they said,
11:36 who do you think Jesus Christ was?
11:38 And they said wonderful things
11:39 you know, He's fair, loving, honest, pure, holy,
11:43 right all these wonderful accolades and adjectives
11:46 and then they said, okay well now tell me,
11:47 what you think of when I say Christian?
11:50 And then they started saying,
11:51 judgmental, angry, unfair, mean,
11:56 you know all these other things
11:57 that Christianity has that label of because you know,
12:00 we've been so inclusive in Christianity to,
12:03 you know, to block out anything
12:05 that may be offensive or uncomfortable
12:07 to the point where what we've given our society
12:09 is this, is this picture
12:11 that the Christians aren't like Jesus.
12:14 Yeah, and sometimes, not all the times,
12:17 but sometimes those accusations they do have merit,
12:21 now I want to shift gears.
12:24 The word homophobic or homophobia
12:27 is also often used a lot,
12:31 more than often, by the gay community,
12:35 and that is a charge that is leveled at Christians
12:37 and I'm sure that sometimes,
12:38 like we've said, sometimes it's valid.
12:40 Yes. Is it always valid?
12:42 No. Is it always valid?
12:43 No. No.
12:45 From that perspective is there room
12:47 for improvement on the other side as well?
12:50 Yeah, you know there are been a lot of things,
12:53 there's constantly things in the news today
12:55 that are sure, you know,
12:56 some one will take a stand with regards to homosexuality
13:00 and it's not because they hate homosexuals
13:03 but it's because of their personal beliefs
13:05 that they are being threatened, religious believes.
13:09 We look at equality through gay rights
13:12 but then the very things sometimes that gay,
13:16 the gay culture is accusing the church of,
13:19 is happening from the gay culture
13:21 towards the Christian,
13:23 and so religious rights today are be coming in question.
13:26 I think that it's very important,
13:28 you mentioned something earlier about humility
13:31 and I think that we need, on both sides here,
13:35 the people within the church, the members of churches today
13:41 that are looking at God's word
13:42 to be reaching now with God's love,
13:45 and that love to an individual,
13:48 to a gay person doesn't have to mean approval
13:51 of what they do, what they're all about.
13:55 Since it's not in agreement with God's word,
13:57 it still says that I can love you
13:59 without approving of what you're,
14:02 what's your lifestyle is.
14:04 So if a person doesn't have
14:06 an irrational fear of a homosexual,
14:10 and if he believes in the Bible and if he points to the Bible,
14:13 and if he shows what the Bible says
14:16 in a loving way, in a redemptive way--
14:19 I'm so glad you included that, Steve, because it's true.
14:21 You know, in a loving way, in a redemptive way.
14:23 That's right, without the bat.
14:24 Yeah, without the bat and the club
14:26 and the hammer, and the stick.
14:28 Then that person can often be accused falsely.
14:34 Of being a homophobic,
14:35 because it seems like that word is just you know,
14:37 thrown around I mean the word phobia
14:39 really is an irrational fear as the dictionary said.
14:41 It's right.
14:42 As someone is phobic concerning spiders,
14:44 it's an irrational fear of spiders or enclosed places
14:48 or you know if I have an irrational fear,
14:50 lets say about tomatoes or who knows,
14:52 you know walk under a ladder, being in the dark.
14:55 You know not everybody who believes the Bible
14:57 and who is taking a stand on these issues
15:02 as even if they do it in a really good way,
15:04 you know, they're not,
15:05 that word doesn't, it's an unjust accusation,
15:09 it's an untrue accusation to categorize
15:13 all Bible believing Christians as homophobic.
15:18 Right. Do you agree with that?
15:19 The word itself is not being used correctly.
15:22 Right. In every incidence.
15:23 But I think what's largely needed today
15:26 is the education in the church.
15:29 Yes, definitely.
15:30 Now here's a question that I,
15:31 as I've been contemplating this.
15:33 Here's a big question.
15:36 What do true Christians, and the gay community,
15:41 and Jesus Christ have in common?
15:46 Do Christians, true Christians, and the gay community,
15:50 and or at least a large percentage
15:52 of gay community or a percentage,
15:54 you know only God knows what percentage is,
15:57 and Jesus, Jesus Himself,
15:59 what do they all have in common?
16:01 One major thing and we discussed this so--
16:04 We've all been persecuted. We can--
16:05 Right, right. He forgets to say it.
16:06 You can spill the beans. Yeah, yeah.
16:08 You can answer the question.
16:09 Well, there's even more levels to that,
16:12 you know, because if we don't believe that,
16:14 if God Himself established you know,
16:17 the fact that homosexuality is a sin
16:19 as well as all sexual sin
16:22 then He has to be the one to show us,
16:25 how to overcome right?
16:26 And so for anyone that continues in saying
16:30 that Jesus loves them for who they are,
16:32 if that goes against the word which we believe,
16:34 we've already established, you know,
16:35 is God's, you know-- Owners manual.
16:38 Manual, that's right for us,
16:39 then what would basically saying
16:40 is that Jesus is impotent, that He is powerless
16:43 and that also is an insult to Jesus Christ
16:46 and so we have, we've all been abused
16:49 and we've all been taken out of context
16:51 and we've all been mistreated and misunderstood.
16:55 That's right, I mean Christians, true Christians,
16:58 if you look back at Bible history,
17:00 the disciples were all brutally murdered
17:04 except for John, who they tried to kill
17:06 and eventually banished him to the island of the Patmos.
17:08 That was pretty--
17:09 And that's why we got the book of revelation.
17:10 Yeah, they tried to kill him but they couldn't, they didn't.
17:13 And early Christian history, the true Christians
17:17 were brutally persecuted by the Roman Empire.
17:20 Go down in the dark ages,
17:22 Christians were continued to be persecuted even by the church.
17:26 What claimed to be the church,
17:27 the inquisition and they were murdering
17:29 true Christians, down through that history,
17:32 you know the history of China, Russia,
17:35 today in Muslim countries many Bible believing Christians
17:39 have been cruelly you know brutally put to death
17:43 and so that's all, that's real and it's wrong
17:47 and what they have in common, as I mentioned,
17:49 you know, what they all have in common,
17:51 sad to say that those who have chosen a gay lifestyle,
17:55 whether we agree with it or not,
17:58 they don't deserve some of the things
18:00 that would have come their way.
18:01 A lot of the things that have come their way,
18:03 I mean people are,
18:04 Jesus wouldn't call them fags.
18:07 He wouldn't hate them, there is such a thing,
18:10 there is real and then there is perceived hate speech,
18:14 but there is real hate speech and there are real hate crimes.
18:17 Yeah you can't lump it all in.
18:18 That's right, and those that are in the gay community
18:21 have been brutalized, many of them.
18:24 Yes, yes.
18:25 Unfairly, as Christians have been persecuted
18:28 unfairly and ultimately
18:30 that's the common bond with Jesus Christ
18:33 because Jesus Himself was, was brutalized,
18:37 He was beaten, He was whipped, He was rejected,
18:40 He was lifted up on a cross and He Himself,
18:43 He is the only one among us that can claim this.
18:46 That's right. But He was an innocent man.
18:48 Entirely from birth to grave,
18:50 He was innocent and yet you know He suffered,
18:53 He suffered and I think that we,
18:55 you know, we all need to have our eyes opened
18:58 to the fact that cruelty and injustice is wrong
19:02 wherever it pops up its ugly head
19:07 and who's behind all of the cruelty
19:11 and inhumanity to man all through out history,
19:15 who could we put the--
19:16 I know. A finger on?
19:19 I'm not going to say it. Tell us.
19:20 Yeah I know, no, no,
19:21 I'm not going to tell, I'm not going to say--
19:22 I want to know. Okay, you tell us.
19:23 I'm not going to say his name. I have a good idea.
19:27 What? I believe it's Satan.
19:30 Yes Satan himself. That's right.
19:32 That's right, it's the devil himself.
19:33 The accuser--
19:34 And he would just as soon stir-up both sides of the issue
19:38 and so I have a challenge that I would like to throw out,
19:42 and that is to the church
19:45 and to believers of Jesus Christ
19:48 to apologize to those who may have been hurt,
19:53 isolated, rejected and inappropriately ridiculed
19:59 and that would be to apologize to many, many gays
20:03 that have been hurt by this issue.
20:05 At the same time I have a challenge
20:07 to the gay community and that is,
20:09 is that if you love your God, if you love who you think,
20:14 you know is God, Jesus Christ Himself,
20:17 can you come to Jesus,
20:19 and repent of any known sin you have?
20:23 And come in humility to the church and say,
20:26 I forgive you and so let's come together
20:30 and let's study God's word together
20:31 and lets see what God's plan
20:33 really is by studying out His word.
20:35 Let's become the sons and the daughters
20:37 and the family that Jesus Christ
20:39 intended us to be and search his out together.
20:42 And we want more people,
20:45 we want may be not more people, we just want people,
20:47 to become true believers in Jesus.
20:50 And to give their lives to Him and to follow the Bible
20:52 and to realize that He has a better way,
20:54 that He's not responsible for the persecution--
20:56 Absolutely. And the injustice--
20:57 That's right.
20:59 And the hatred, and the hostility
21:00 toward anybody.
21:03 As we've talked about, He doesn't condone sin,
21:06 you know, if we go back to this verse in Luke 15,
21:10 it says, "Then drew near to Him all the publicans
21:12 and the sinners for to hear Him,
21:15 and the Pharisees and the scribes murmured
21:17 and said this man welcomes sinners."
21:20 Amen. "And He eats with them."
21:22 Now to Jesus, I mean Jesus knew
21:24 what sin was and He did not participate in sin.
21:27 That's right.
21:28 He didn't yield to sin, He never sinned.
21:30 But He hung out with sinners
21:34 because He wanted to bring them,
21:35 He wanted to bring them to God and to His love and in fact,
21:40 the name Jesus itself in Mathew 121,
21:44 the angel said to Joseph--
21:47 That's right, that's right.
21:48 That you will call His name Jesus,
21:51 for He shall save His people from their sins.
21:56 And the name Jesus means savior,
21:58 and it has to do with savior from sins.
22:01 He came all the way down here from a Holy Heaven,
22:03 He went to the very bottom of the ladder
22:06 and He knew why He came down here,
22:08 it was because of sin.
22:10 Jesus, did not participated in sin,
22:11 He didn't practiced sin, He didn't condoled sin,
22:13 He didn't rationalized sin, He didn't participated in sin,
22:17 but He loved, He loved sinners.
22:19 Yes. And He gave His life for them.
22:22 Yes. And He drew them to Himself.
22:25 And that's what He's all about. Yeah.
22:27 You know, and that's what we need to be all about.
22:29 I love how our pastor once told me,
22:31 he said that, that Jesus took my death,
22:35 the death that I deserved
22:36 so that I could have the life that He deserved.
22:39 And that was incredibly humbling for me.
22:42 I could submit myself to someone like that.
22:46 And you know I think it's a--
22:48 I know that it is true, based on my study of the Bible
22:52 when it talks about sinners, Jesus ate with sinners,
22:54 He loved sinners, He welcomed sinners,
22:56 He wanted to save sinners,
22:57 but you know just as we talked about
22:59 the false of the church
23:00 and there is just false everywhere
23:02 I mean we're a mixed up human family.
23:04 It's a fallen world.
23:05 That's right, we're in a fallen world
23:07 and the reality is that if church members choose
23:10 to hold on to bad attitudes
23:12 and if those that are doing things
23:16 that they shouldn't be doing, that are really wrong
23:19 then choose to hold on to those sins
23:24 then whether it's the church or those in the church
23:27 or those outside the church, we're all or would be all of us
23:32 and we've all done this at some point,
23:34 we are really rejecting the one
23:38 who came here to give His life for us and Jesus,
23:43 He is the most rejected of all.
23:45 That's right. That's right.
23:46 Being Christians have been persecuted,
23:49 many in the gay, lesbian,
23:51 transgender community have been cruelly treated,
23:55 unjustly and there is no justification for that.
23:59 In the heart of Christ and yet Jesus Himself,
24:02 He is the most abused of them all
24:06 because He was abused,
24:07 He was criticized by the Pharisees,
24:09 by the religious people,
24:11 who criticized Him for loving sinners
24:14 but others you know who have
24:17 or whenever anyone chooses to hold on to sin
24:21 we're really rejecting Him as well, aren't we?
24:24 That's right.
24:25 And so He is the rejected one and that,
24:27 that reminds me, brings me back to the text
24:30 I want to wind this up with, which is in the book of Isaiah.
24:35 Isaiah 53 lets just take a look at a couple of these verses
24:39 and we've got couple of minutes left.
24:42 Isaiah 53, it's a prophecy about Jesus Christ,
24:46 this whole chapter and in verse 3,
24:50 Isaiah 53:3, the Bible says that
24:53 "He is despised and rejected of men,
24:57 He is a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief,
25:00 we hid as it were our faces from Him,
25:02 He was despised, and we esteemed him not,
25:06 surely He has borne our grief's and carried our sorrows,
25:11 yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted,
25:15 but He was wounded", and why was He wounded?
25:17 For my transgressions.
25:18 That's right, for our transgressions,
25:21 and the word "our" means those in the church,
25:23 those outside the church, those in the gay community,
25:26 those in the Wiccan community.
25:28 Those in the Muslim community, those that are atheists,
25:31 all around the world.
25:33 He was wounded for all of our transgressions.
25:37 He was bruised for our inequities.
25:40 The chastisement or the punishment
25:42 of our peace was upon Him
25:44 and with His stripes we are healed.
25:47 And like it, verse 6, the next word there is "all".
25:52 Verse 6 says, "All we like sheep
25:55 have gone astray.
25:57 We have turned everyone" and that's inside the church,
26:01 outside the church, it's the whole world,
26:03 "every one of us has turned to his own way
26:07 and the Lord has laid on Him"
26:12 the sin of, how many people?
26:17 The Bible says the sin of us all.
26:21 So biblically speaking we're all in this together.
26:25 That's right.
26:26 We all share a common humanity,
26:28 we're all fallen, we've all sinned,
26:30 we have broken God's commandments
26:32 and our sins, whatever they may be,
26:36 on what ever side of the fence we're on,
26:38 all of our sins have been placed upon Jesus Christ
26:41 and He suffered for those sins
26:44 and He agonized for those sins
26:46 and He died on a cruel cross for those sins
26:49 as the rejected one and yet praise God,
26:53 after He paid that price He rose from the dead.
26:57 And we want to offer Him to you
27:01 and that's what this is all about,
27:02 that's what we're about,
27:03 it's lifting up Jesus, offering you His love,
27:05 His grace, His forgiveness and His power.
27:08 Whoever you are, whatever you've done?
27:10 The one that you need is Him, Jesus Christ.
27:15 So stick with us we've got more
27:17 to come on Coming Out.
27:20 If you would like to order the 13 part Coming Out series
27:23 for $34.95 plus shipping, call 1-800-782-4253,
27:28 or write to White Horse Media, PO Box 1139,
27:31 Newport, Washington, 99156.
27:34 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
27:36 and Mike Carducci are each available
27:38 to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:40 To schedule a speaking engagement,
27:41 contact Coming Out Ministries
27:43 by calling 360-936-8514,
27:47 or visit comingoutministries.org.