Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000008
00:09 Why are gays gay doesn't matter?
00:12 Next on Coming Out.
01:00 Welcome to program number eight in the Coming Out series.
01:04 And we've been in quite a journey
01:06 going through a journey, we got more to come.
01:08 We have been discussing about big issues dealing with gays,
01:11 homosexuals, lesbians, gender issues
01:15 and the Bible and Jesus
01:17 and what God has to say about this controversy.
01:21 I'm here again with Dwayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey.
01:25 Pastor Ron, they are cofounders
01:29 of a ministry called Coming Out.
01:31 They came out of the closet a long time ago
01:34 and now they have come out of what they came out of
01:38 and they have to chosen to come in to the Bible
01:41 and they have a ministry which is focused
01:44 on bringing clarity to these issues
01:45 and trying to shed light and healing and love and peace
01:49 into people's hearts through the love of God.
01:52 That's what this is all about.
01:54 So again welcome here, gentlemen.
01:55 Thank you. Thank you.
01:56 I just I really appreciate your time and your insights.
02:00 Now let's just start with the context
02:02 that we find ourselves in our society.
02:05 Its no secrete that there are--
02:07 I don't know what about, maybe I should say a lot
02:09 or many or some boys that are growing up
02:11 in this world that at some point
02:13 they discover that they are not attracted to girls
02:15 but they're attracted to boys.
02:16 And there are women, girls that grow up
02:19 when they become either, you know, later girls
02:22 or women puberty or beyond when they discover
02:25 that they're really attracted to other girls or other women
02:29 and there are boys that wish they were girls
02:31 and there are girls that wish they were boys
02:33 and there are those that go through the surgery
02:35 to make themselves what they really believe in their hearts
02:38 they were supposed to be
02:40 and what's happening is we live in an environment
02:44 where this is happening increasingly
02:46 and people are asking a question
02:49 which is why is this happening?
02:51 You know, when they're looking for reasons, for this trend
02:57 and I guess the first question
02:58 I want to ask before we look at the why,
03:03 is a lesson that we can learn from the question.
03:05 The fact that people are saying,
03:07 you know, and asking
03:08 and the media is looking at this
03:09 and scientists are looking at this,
03:10 people are looking at this.
03:12 You know, what can we learn from the question,
03:15 why is this happening?
03:17 What do you think?
03:19 Well, I think that it shows immediately
03:22 that if we are asking it, we don't ask questions
03:25 about people who appear to be,
03:26 you know, normal or if we're looking at things biblically,
03:29 we see things through our God's word is showing,
03:32 heterosexuality is being God's plan throughout His word
03:36 and so it immediately indicates that we have
03:39 some kind of an abnormality on hand
03:41 and so now we want to know why.
03:44 Yeah, we have to figure this out.
03:45 Yeah. What's going on?
03:46 It shows things are not normal. That's right.
03:49 Pastor Ron, has anyone ever asked you
03:51 why are you attracted to your wife?
03:56 Well, I suppose gay people have.
03:58 There are friends of mine from the past,
04:01 they can't believe that I'm the person I am today
04:03 and they wonder why, why would you go for a woman
04:07 when, you know, we knew you the way you were.
04:10 But, you know, in general society
04:12 why don't ask why a man is attracted to his wife
04:14 or why men are attracted to women
04:16 or women attracted to men.
04:18 It's when it comes to the gay issue
04:20 we start to trying to figure out why.
04:22 And certainly that does as you suggested it does
04:26 suggest that there is an automatic thought
04:30 that it's not normal or they wouldn't be asking why.
04:34 Right, that's right.
04:35 Nobody has ever asked me why I'm attracted to my wife
04:39 or when I was a teenager why I like girls.
04:42 I did have problems with controlling my desires
04:45 before I became Christian
04:47 and, you know, the battle is still on.
04:49 Certainly not out of the woods
04:51 where there is temptations all the time.
04:54 But, you know, people don't ask
04:55 why do you need to go to sleep at night
04:57 or why do you need to drink water
05:00 or why are boys attracted to girls.
05:02 But now they're asking
05:03 why is all of this gender confusion going on,
05:07 and to me the question itself shows
05:11 that something is not normal
05:13 and people are struggling to find answers.
05:17 Now, when we go to the next question
05:19 dealing with the answers or at least the factors
05:21 or the potential answers, answers,
05:23 what are the options that people are giving today
05:27 as to the reasons for this trend?
05:30 It's all over the map,
05:32 because obviously we don't go to Gods word
05:34 and you can come up with all kinds of things.
05:36 Such as. One being I was born that way.
05:40 So for me if you look at my prenatal influence
05:45 and postnatal abuse you would come up
05:47 with probable a conclusion
05:49 of being conditionally impressed
05:53 to have same sex attraction
05:55 and so based on that it would be my justification.
05:59 Okay, so the genetic factor. And you haven't--
06:03 Pastor Ron, you told me that scientist have studied,
06:06 tells a little bit about that scientists
06:07 have studied the genes and are they concluding that
06:10 it really is-- there is a gay gene
06:12 or isn't there a gay gene, or the jury still out?
06:15 Well, there have been studies that have been discovered
06:21 to have them done with the bias,
06:24 without-- which were not truly scientific
06:27 in which they did report that it was genetic
06:30 and so forth but when science goes in without an agenda
06:35 and truly look scientifically at the issue
06:39 like the identical twin studies is gone on for decades.
06:43 The twins share the same DNA so if one twin is gay,
06:47 you would expect the other one to be gay.
06:50 If it were genetic but the percentage of that
06:54 happening is roughly around seven percent
06:56 rather than 100 percent.
06:58 So that's studying itself has debunks that theory.
07:02 However I know Wayne feels the same way.
07:05 I for years believed that I was just born this way,
07:09 before I did any research, before I studied my own life
07:12 and before I studied Gods word.
07:14 I believe I was born that way,
07:16 but looking back on my life there are all kinds of factors
07:22 that I could put the blame on.
07:25 I was sexually molested when I was four years old
07:27 by a farmhand that totally derailed me
07:30 from that day forward.
07:32 I had wild fantasies and wild imaginations
07:35 and I never shared any of that with anyone.
07:37 That had I big affect and I blame that.
07:40 I was victimized repeatedly in the grade school.
07:42 I was emotionally abused by my father,
07:45 who praise the Lord was converted in
07:47 and he died as the best friend of mine.
07:50 There were all kinds of things I could blame,
07:53 when I went through my divorce,
07:54 because I came out of the closet
07:56 and we needed a gay life.
07:59 My wife and I did some counseling
08:01 with Christians pastors and psychiatrist
08:04 and some of them told her to just divorce this man,
08:07 get on with your life that kind can never change.
08:11 That's when I started blaming God himself
08:14 and may forgive me for doing that but for years.
08:17 He has forgiven you.
08:18 I blamed God for making me that way
08:22 and not being able to change me or not wanting to change me
08:25 and I think that's what hurt me most
08:27 was to think that God didn't care
08:29 and didn't want to change me.
08:30 So I think many people blame God
08:33 when they say I was born this way they're blaming God.
08:36 When they say God made me this way,
08:37 they're blaming God.
08:39 Yeah, I found I was blaming God a lot.
08:41 You know, and people that I hear say
08:43 you know God made me this way.
08:46 But God really didn't make us this way,
08:48 because we need to think back at the beginning
08:51 and recognize that when God created
08:53 Adam and Eve, they were the only two perfect people
08:57 that He created.
08:58 Once sin took place and we began to be born,
09:03 we have-- we were born with of fallen nature
09:06 and we have the sins of our fathers on us.
09:09 That's right.
09:10 That's right, so, okay so--,
09:11 they are Pastor Ron, and Wayne,
09:15 you would say that an accurate consensus
09:17 is really it's probably not in the genes,
09:20 its more in the environment,
09:21 its more in mom, dad abuse,
09:24 you know these kind of factors
09:26 that are growing up in a dysfunctional home.
09:28 At least we know that in many cases
09:30 those are contributing factors.
09:31 I think there's another factor which would be just,
09:34 you know, Hollywood, people watch talk show host
09:38 that they really like or football players
09:41 and you know musicians and they--
09:43 they then come out of a closet they openly met
09:45 that they're gay and people look at that
09:48 and they say you know,
09:49 maybe that's something I ought to try.
09:51 You mentioned something about the--
09:53 Yes, I-- That this is the drug of, of--
09:54 The experimental drug of this age,
09:58 it's the lower of the forbidden
09:59 that's the term that you shared with me,
10:01 but that's really it, this is a taboo area
10:05 and society tends to push at the fence.
10:07 Well, this is a fence post, and they are pushing it
10:10 there's it's another area to experiment.
10:12 But what people don't realize
10:14 is how highly addictive homosexuality is,
10:19 it's seen as addictive--
10:21 as far we have the bondage of sin.
10:24 You know, they say, try you'll like it
10:25 and so there's a song out there called "I kissed a girl,"
10:29 and I think a lot of girls listen to that song
10:31 and they think hey, you know, why not try.
10:32 Yeah, and then when you try it
10:34 they say you try it, you'll like it
10:35 and then once you try it, it's like the smoking,
10:37 you start smoking, you start drinking,
10:39 you start checking out that kind of sexuality.
10:42 And before you know it, you are hooked.
10:46 When I worked in the years
10:48 that I worked in the prostitution,
10:50 I had many heterosexual men
10:52 that were calling me as a result of my add.
10:54 It was because they had reached the point in their marriage
10:57 that it didn't have the spark that it had
11:00 when a man and a woman first meet each other
11:03 and so what they were looking for was the spirit of adventure
11:06 and took aloud and do you something--
11:07 You know and for some they would turn around
11:09 and decide oh, I think I'm gay now.
11:12 So, anyway whatever the reason
11:14 or the contributing factors, let's go to the Bible,
11:17 let's turn into the Bible
11:18 and let the Bible shed some light on this topic
11:22 because that's what we really want to do is
11:23 you know the world looks
11:24 at a different perspective people look at their emotions,
11:26 their hearts and their struggles.
11:28 But this is the clarifying book that sheds light
11:34 into our experience and helps us,
11:36 and helps us to take wise choices.
11:39 Right, you know you mentioned the word heart
11:41 and it takes me immediately to a verse
11:44 that says,
11:46 "The heart is deceitful above all things,
11:49 and desperately wicked, who can know it?"
11:53 So that shows me that our hearts
11:55 can be influenced to gain our feelings
11:58 can speak to our hearts and make us think that,
12:00 that's the truth that we need to live by.
12:02 And we can-- we can--
12:03 what our hearts want to do,
12:05 we can then grab on to the potential
12:09 why reasons and excuses whether God did it
12:12 or the genes or you know I was abused
12:14 or whatever it is as an excuse
12:18 and that's where we want to focus on the blame game
12:21 that the blame that the issue of blaming
12:24 has been a problem for a long time.
12:26 It really goes back to the Garden of Eden,
12:27 it actually goes back to Lucifer.
12:28 Lucifer blamed God and it wasn't God's fault.
12:31 And then when Adam, Adam and Eve were specifically told
12:34 in the Garden of Eden in Genesis Chapter 2,
12:37 "They that were not to eat from the forbidden fruit,"
12:40 but they did.
12:42 You know Eve was seduced.
12:43 She was tempted at the tree by a slick serpent
12:47 who offered her a great experience,
12:50 a wonderful experience.
12:51 This will be great, just you know don't listen to God,
12:53 eat this fruit I can talk now,
12:55 the serpent mind have said look what,
12:57 what-- if I'm just a snake and I can talk
12:59 think of what this fruit will do for you, Eve.
13:01 The bible doesn't gives us all the dialog,
13:03 some of the dialog, maybe that was all the dialog.
13:06 But anyway Eve was--
13:07 she was tricked, she was seduced.
13:08 She thought it was for-- Yeah, cost was to doubt God.
13:10 Yes, she doubted God, and she thought
13:12 this was gonna be great and she ate the fruit
13:15 and then she took it to Adam,
13:17 she became the tempter herself, offered it to Adam.
13:20 He ate, he knew what he was doing,
13:21 he choose his wife above the Lord,
13:24 and then the significant thing is the point
13:26 that I want to focus on is that after they sinned
13:29 God came to them in the garden
13:31 and said Adam, what did you do?
13:33 And Adam said, he said,
13:35 the woman that you gave to be with me
13:39 she tempted me and I ate.
13:41 So she is blaming-- he is blaming God
13:44 and his wife and then God said to Eve, simple question.
13:48 Did you do what I told you not to do?
13:51 And she said the serpent,
13:54 you know, he tempted me and I ate.
13:57 So what's happening is they're now in sin
14:00 and because of their sin, they are blaming,
14:03 they're excusing their actions
14:06 and Adam blamed God and the woman,
14:08 and the woman blamed the serpent and haven't we all,
14:12 whether its this issue or any other temptation
14:15 and fall haven't we all been repeating their history.
14:20 Now we're in a mess. That's right.
14:22 Now blame game is being going on for 6,000 years
14:24 and even when we're Christians,
14:26 we still tend to fall into that trap
14:29 when we make mistakes.
14:31 Our knee jerk reaction is to come up with an excuse
14:35 and quite often it's the nearest person.
14:38 That's right.
14:39 You know, I've seen that in my own life many times
14:41 and I'm sure we all having a--
14:42 you know my kids bless my children,
14:44 I love my kids so much, and they're good kids
14:47 all things considering, by the grace of God,
14:50 but anyway Abby, will often say you know Seth,
14:52 my buddy was Seth, Seth he--
14:54 and then Seth will say but Abby, and its just typical,
14:58 its typical the human nature
15:00 whether its gay issue, or whether its whatever issue.
15:03 This one is just self blame, you know.
15:05 Yeah, we can hate ourselves,
15:07 or what you know we can blame all kinds of things.
15:11 So again let's go back to the Bible.
15:12 Pastor Ron, isn't there a verse about excuses
15:16 that specifically apply to this issue in Romans?
15:19 Well, in Romans, with first of all in 2 Thessalonians 2:7,
15:24 we read about the mystery of inequity,
15:28 to really to-- to be able to explain sin
15:33 would be too excuse it or justify it
15:36 and we read in Romans Chapter 1
15:40 we were discussing this in lengthy the other day
15:42 and another program about woman leaving the natural use,
15:50 woman with woman and men with men
15:53 burning in their lust one toward another
15:55 but in Roman 1:20 it tells us plainly
15:59 that they are without excuse.
16:03 So there really is no excuse for sin.
16:06 It is the mystery of in equity.
16:10 And ultimately choice is involved.
16:12 This is why, Steve I have found
16:15 or I have not found in the Bible
16:17 that there is any information to explain sin or to,
16:24 you know, the cause of it.
16:26 Whatever the Bible from cover to cover
16:28 really seems to be dealing with the solution,
16:31 there really is no excuse.
16:34 Yeah, and this is a powerful text
16:35 because Romans 1:26, 27 deals specifically
16:38 with this issue that we're talking about.
16:40 You know men burning in their desires
16:42 for men and woman with woman
16:43 there is actually 24 sins listed here not just those
16:47 but many others and at least a half of them
16:50 or probably most of them apply to all of us somewhere
16:53 but yet in the midst of all of these--
16:55 this list is point blank straightforward,
16:58 you know, no compromise list that God gives us
17:01 of different sins and says like you mention, Ron.
17:04 Pastor Ron, in verse 20 it says they are without excuse.
17:07 So regardless of the temptations
17:10 or the factors or the,
17:12 you know, mysterious causes going on behind the scenes,
17:16 still sin is mysterious and ultimately
17:20 there is a choice that we have to make.
17:22 And if we choose to go along with what we know to be wrong,
17:28 there is no excuse for that.
17:32 And isn't that really a part of the big issue
17:34 is to accept that fact?
17:37 Yeah, and looking back at my life,
17:40 I can trace what happened to me.
17:43 Dwayne can trace what happened.
17:45 So we have explanation, but explanation is not excuse
17:50 because explanation still throughout
17:54 all of our experiences, we still had to choose to give in,
17:59 choose to yield to that temptation,
18:02 choose to go into that lifestyle.
18:05 So ultimately the choice, it is a matter of choice
18:08 and especially, and I know this is not going to be
18:12 a popular statement, its not in harmony
18:15 with conventional thinking or political correctness
18:20 but if a person really feels that they were born gay,
18:25 and the Lord comes along and says
18:26 well, you can be born again.
18:29 Now that person is faced with a choice.
18:31 Yes. Yes.
18:32 And if they have felt all their lives
18:35 it was not a matter of choice and then the word comes along
18:38 and says but you can be born again.
18:40 Good point. Yeah.
18:41 Now they're faced with choice from that day and forever more
18:45 they must admit it's a choice.
18:48 You know, it just leads to me another text.
18:50 In Exodus 25 where it says, God says, I'm a jealous God
18:57 visiting the iniquity of the fathers
18:59 upon the children to the third and fourth generations
19:02 of those who hate me.
19:05 So there is a factor
19:07 where what the parents do affects the kids
19:09 but even when those kids grow up,
19:11 they still have to make a choice.
19:13 And God doesn't hold us accountable
19:15 for the environmental factors.
19:19 Even if the genetics were there or if they're there
19:23 or whatever the parental situation is,
19:26 God ultimately holds us responsible for the choice.
19:29 And like you said if we, we have to choose
19:32 to get into this lifestyle
19:34 and we have to make a choice to get out.
19:38 You know I'm reminded of Joyce Meyer's ministries
19:42 and everyone once in a while sure share about her childhood
19:46 and before she was 15 years old,
19:48 her father had abused her,
19:50 sexually abused her over 200 times.
19:53 And she shares that, you know, if God can reach me
19:57 and put me in a position of ministry today
20:00 with the bitterness and hurt that I had on my heart,
20:03 He can reach anybody with any cultivated
20:05 or hereditary sin anywhere.
20:08 Wow. Yeah, it's a beautiful story.
20:12 Yeah, just frightening to think
20:13 what's happening to kids these days and--
20:16 You know, in this text
20:17 that you were just reading from the second commandment,
20:21 it's interesting to me that that principle works in reverse
20:26 when a person is converted.
20:29 Now he can start that trend upward
20:32 under the third and fourth generation
20:34 by his influence and passing on to his children
20:37 positive and godly trades and principles--
20:41 That consequences work both ways.
20:44 Now Pastor Ron, is there's a verse
20:45 you shared with me earlier
20:47 from Jeremiah about the pivotal point.
20:51 If we choose to go into a lifestyle or any temptation
20:55 then we have to make a choice to get out.
20:58 And what are those choices that we have to make
21:01 is near verse in Jeremiah about that?
21:02 Yes, and you know for three years the Lord,
21:06 I'm sure it was a Lord visiting me in the dream
21:08 in which I live through the coming of a Jesus
21:12 as a lost person.
21:14 And I resisted that but eventually
21:16 I got to the point where I stopped blaming God,
21:20 realizing that I can keep on blaming God,
21:23 until He does come in the clouds of glory
21:24 I'm still lost.
21:26 And at that point my consciences kicked in
21:29 and what I later learned in Jeremiah 3
21:33 that God says "Only acknowledge is thy iniquity."
21:36 Thy meaning yours.
21:37 Your iniquity not everyone else's which is blame.
21:40 I acknowledge your iniquity
21:42 and I will heal your backsliding.
21:45 And that was a very powerful and pivot able text for me.
21:48 Well, isn't that the battle, I mean that we all have,
21:51 if we be yield it to temptation and we've gone was sin.
21:53 Adam and Eve did the same thing.
21:55 The battle inside of our heads is whether we are willing
21:59 to really be honest with ourselves,
22:01 with our consciences and with God
22:04 and to acknowledge our sin
22:07 and to recognize that sin is sin.
22:11 You know, I think about Adam and Eve,
22:12 and Adam really just should have responded Lord
22:15 when He said did you do it?
22:16 He should have said, I did and I'm sorry.
22:19 And same thing with Eve, I did and I'm sorry.
22:23 And that's the battle is to be willing
22:26 to make that acknowledgement
22:29 and that humbling of our hearts.
22:31 Yeah, you know the upside
22:33 and the most beautiful thing about all of this
22:36 is that Jesus knows the pain on your heart.
22:39 He knows what conditions you've been through
22:42 and yet He offers to you His strength, His power
22:46 if you're surrendering to Him and turn your life over to Him,
22:50 He will wash you with His blood,
22:52 He will make you whiter than snow,
22:54 He will give you a fresh start, He puts hope in your heart,
22:57 He offers you redemption, it is a beautiful thing.
23:00 Hallelujah. It's a healing thing.
23:02 Yeah, it's hard to admit our sin
23:04 and you know-- I know from myself
23:05 and I'm sure with others the feeling is
23:08 if you acknowledge that this is sin
23:11 you're entering darkness that's what you think,
23:13 I can't admit that because I admit this I'm lost.
23:17 It's to dark but the amazing truth is
23:21 that when we acknowledge our sin for what it is--
23:25 that's right, as somebody once said,
23:28 honesty is the path to peace.
23:32 And purity and the good news is that God loves us,
23:36 He know what we've done. Yeah.
23:37 It's not a revelation to Him, and we just--
23:40 We just waiting.
23:41 That's right, so if we admit it and humble ourselves
23:45 and make the choice to come back to Him
23:47 and to give our lives to Him
23:48 we have the assurance that He will forgive, He loves us.
23:53 Admit and submit.
23:54 That's right, admit and submit, good.
23:57 This whole text tells me
23:59 that God wants us to acknowledge
24:01 that what we're dealing with is a sin issue.
24:04 And you know He does not promise to save us
24:07 from an acceptable alternative lifestyle.
24:11 Jesus came to say this from our sins
24:13 and so He said if you will acknowledge
24:15 this is a sin issue I can help you
24:17 but otherwise I have to stand by and wait.
24:20 Yeah, that's right, and that's where all the powers
24:23 of Lucifer and self justification
24:27 because that's what he did in heaven.
24:28 He justified himself, he refuse to humble himself
24:31 and finally got kicked out.
24:33 And that power of self justification
24:37 is working within all of us.
24:38 We see it in Adam and Eve
24:40 its been going on down through out history
24:42 and again that is where the battle
24:43 is inside of my heart, my mind all of our hearts
24:47 are we willing to face up to the sin issue
24:53 and humble ourselves and ask God to save us
24:57 from our own selves in our sins.
25:00 He is a very patient God, you know He waited for me
25:03 for nearly 40 years and you know
25:05 as long as you have breath in your body,
25:08 you know, God is there for you
25:10 to surrender your life over to Him.
25:12 And your life is a testimony to them.
25:13 Yeah, it's a big radical--
25:15 I mean all of our lives are testimonies
25:19 to the grace of God.
25:21 You know sometime people think
25:22 well you know I would never do that
25:23 but you've hear the phrase
25:25 "but for the grace of God, there go I."
25:27 And if we were in that person shoes,
25:29 growing up the way they grew up
25:31 influence the way they were influenced,
25:33 you know we would-- we might make the same choices.
25:37 So again but choice is the key
25:39 but chose whatever the background to go in
25:42 and we can choose to get out.
25:45 And once who make the choice
25:47 that's where we have to start relying upon
25:50 someone up there who can really get us out
25:54 because we can't get out ourselves.
25:56 And our next program is gonna deal
25:58 with the healing process more directly
26:01 but I'd like to close
26:02 we have just a little bit of time left.
26:03 I'd like to close with something
26:06 that Jesus said in Luke Chapter 4
26:09 one of Jesus talks in a town called Nazareth.
26:14 It says that the book, the Bible was delivered to him
26:17 and he read in the synagogue these words.
26:20 Luke 4:18 Jesus said
26:21 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
26:24 because he has anointed me to preach
26:26 the good news to the poor,
26:28 he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
26:31 to preach deliverance to the captives,
26:33 and the recovering of sight to the blind,
26:37 and to set at liberty those who are bruised."
26:40 Jesus said this is His mission. His mission is to heal.
26:44 He came to heal the brokenhearted,
26:46 He came to set the captives free,
26:47 He came to open the eyes of the blind,
26:49 He came to love and to heal to those
26:52 who are wounded by this world
26:53 and by their own choices to go into sin
26:56 and that what this is all about.
26:58 Our next program will deal more, more in detail
27:01 with the power of the healer that we want you to know,
27:03 whatever your past whatever your sin,
27:04 whatever your struggle that Jesus Christ loves you
27:07 and He is available to you,
27:08 to heal your heart and to change your life.
27:12 We will be back with another program
27:14 on Coming Out to focus on that Healer.
27:19 If you would like to order the 13 part Coming Out series
27:22 for $34.95 plus shipping, call 1-800-782-4253
27:27 or write to White Horse Media, PO Box 1139,
27:30 Newport, Washington, 99156.
27:33 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Dwayne Blakely
27:35 and Mike Carducci are each available
27:37 to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:39 To schedule a speaking engagement
27:41 contact Coming Out Ministries
27:42 by calling 360-936-8514,
27:46 or visit comingoutministries.org.