Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000010
00:09 Is salvation by sex?
00:11 We have something to say about that
00:12 in this addition of Coming Out.
01:01 Welcome to part 10
01:03 of the serious called Coming Out
01:04 that is dealing with the S word.
01:07 The word that lot of people don't want to talk about
01:09 but on the other hand,
01:10 a whole lot of people are talking about it,
01:12 and experiencing it,
01:14 and it's the S-E-X word, the word is sex.
01:16 And we are here to discuss a concept
01:19 called Salvation by Sex?
01:22 Is this possible or what does this mean?
01:24 And I'm here with two of the co-founders,
01:27 there are actually five co-founders.
01:29 We've got two here
01:30 of a ministry called Coming Out,
01:32 that is addressing these issues and trying to bring
01:34 clarification according to the Bible.
01:37 And according to the biblical message
01:39 of the grace of Jesus Christ, dealing with issues
01:43 that really just need to be talked about.
01:45 Pastor Ron Woolsey and Wayne Blakely,
01:48 this is program 10.
01:50 We've been through a lot together
01:51 and we've got more to com.
01:52 So thank you for again joining us here
01:56 in Priest River, Idaho at the headquarters
01:57 of the White Horse Media to discuss this topic.
02:01 My first question to you is,
02:03 why do you think that sex
02:08 has become so important to humanity?
02:14 Personally I think that
02:15 it add to some level of confirmation.
02:23 Church wise I see it,
02:26 I immediately goes in my mind to prove of conversion.
02:31 And so if you have sex
02:35 or you have marriage that's taken place,
02:38 that says to someone today
02:39 that I'm no longer gay and that I'm straight.
02:42 Like that would be the focus.
02:44 Okay, and then you've got more to say about that I'm sure.
02:46 Pastor Ron, why do you think
02:48 sex has become so important to humans today?
02:53 Well, sex is being very much marketed.
02:57 We've heard the term that sex sales.
03:01 It is used to in advertising to sell all kinds of products.
03:05 It's used so heavily in the media, movies today
03:10 if they don't have foul language,
03:12 and violence and sex, they don't go anywhere.
03:16 So our society is just bombarded
03:19 with this idea of over sexuality,
03:23 and children are getting it from--
03:26 well, actually from kindergarten out
03:28 there being inundated through the media
03:31 and outside sources
03:34 to where they start thinking about this long before
03:36 they're ever really equipped to deal with it.
03:39 You know, I'll add my opinion on to the--
03:41 on the question I think, I think sex is important
03:43 or has become really important, or is important,
03:46 because it's part of our make up.
03:49 You know, we have feelings,
03:50 we have desires, something that originally
03:52 God put in human beings sexuality.
03:56 It is a part of us but has it become--
04:01 has it become too important to human beings today
04:04 as if in overblown so then it becomes--
04:07 it become bigger than it really is.
04:10 Can I add just a little bit of quicken--
04:11 Sure. Of course.
04:13 Is that I think we've got the focus wrong in that,
04:17 the sex was never meant to be an orientation,
04:20 that sex in Genesis from God tells us
04:23 it was a gift between one man and one women.
04:26 And many of us have come to see as sex as a right
04:30 rather than that gift.
04:31 Okay, we know that it wasn't original plan,
04:36 but it's not-- it's not the some total of life.
04:39 I see now keep some people I mean,
04:42 we just think sex, we live sex,
04:44 we can't get sex out of our minds.
04:48 When I say we, I'm referring to general,
04:50 many people and that's certainly can't be right.
04:55 You know, it's become something that, that defines us
05:00 and, Wayne, I know that you have a special,
05:02 special burdened about this topic
05:04 because of what has happened to you,
05:06 you've come out of the homosexual lifestyle,
05:10 a gay lifestyle you, but you're not married.
05:14 Pastor Ron is married, he was married
05:16 and now that was before and now you're married again.
05:19 And I think you know, you can testify
05:22 or just share your own feelings about what,
05:24 you know, how you've made,
05:25 you've been made to feel because you're not married yet.
05:30 Just tell us about that.
05:31 Right, and may who knows may never be.
05:35 I would never diminish
05:37 what has happened to Ron, or for Ron,
05:40 I think God gifted a women in Ron's life
05:44 and I praise God that God has done now.
05:47 But I also see throughout the word of God
05:50 and through my own genuine conversion that
05:54 so far in my life God hasn't placed
05:57 before me an erotic desire for a female.
06:02 I don't think that my salvation
06:04 is based on having the right kind of sex
06:07 with the right kind of person
06:09 or with the right gendered person.
06:11 But where I go and I speak today,
06:13 I am in fact even before I go to speak,
06:15 there will be pastors and people that will ask,
06:19 do you have a girlfriend?
06:20 Are you married now?
06:23 If the answer is no, right,
06:25 if the answer is no,
06:26 then you must be clinging to something in your past.
06:30 You're not really truly redeemed
06:32 and it invalidates me,
06:34 and so I'm-- you know, having been,
06:38 if you look back in gay culture,
06:39 you'll find that most individuals
06:41 who are gay or hypersensitive
06:43 and a little bit at that has continued to follow me.
06:47 Ron, stop smiling so much
06:50 and so when I get that
06:53 it's kind of a knee-jerk reaction,
06:55 because again it's that constant invalidation to say,
06:58 you're not redeemed,
07:00 when I know with all my heart that Jesus has accepted me,
07:04 and it's not based on the kind of sex that I'm having.
07:07 But it's on the fact that I believe in Jesus Christ
07:10 and my focus is on Jesus and not on sex.
07:13 And this is really-- this is an important issue
07:15 that's why we're talking about it.
07:16 Especially to those who have had
07:20 or have same sex attractions,
07:23 you know, men for men, women for women.
07:27 You know, it could be a real burdened on them
07:30 to believe if they come to the Lord.
07:32 If they become Christians,
07:34 if they give their lives to God and want help and wholeness
07:38 that they have this impression that I'm not there yet.
07:42 I haven't arrived yet. I'm not at peace yet.
07:45 I don't have real acceptance with God yet
07:48 until if woman's attracted to woman
07:52 until she just falls head over heels
07:54 for a man or vice versa.
07:56 And so I think, you know,
07:57 a lot of people in the community
07:59 that are struggling with these issues,
08:01 you know, we need some clarifications
08:03 and clarity on this two, right,
08:05 that's why we're talking about this that
08:07 your identity and your relationship with God
08:11 is not defined primarily by your attraction
08:18 to either the same sex.
08:22 We still have the temptations or opposite sex,
08:26 you know, there is something,
08:27 there is something bigger than that,
08:29 that we can find our identity in
08:32 which we'll talk about not only
08:33 it's not something, it's someone
08:36 but we'll zero in a little while.
08:39 Ron, I could see you wanting to say something else.
08:41 In my situation,
08:43 I grew up being attracted to the same gender,
08:49 ever since I could remember and it really goes back
08:52 to being molested when I was a child.
08:54 But I grew up and I had, I dated
08:56 and I had girlfriends and all of that.
09:00 When I was in college and I was so troubled
09:02 and so burdened with these tendencies and desires.
09:07 I really came to the conclusion
09:08 that if I were married, it would take care of it.
09:12 I mean the subject is salvation by sex,
09:15 and I really saw that if just get married
09:20 that will satisfy my sex drive or being over sexed
09:23 to whatever is going on in my mind.
09:25 And that'll shift you from one to the other,
09:27 from the desire for a man to a desire for a women
09:29 and everything will be fine.
09:30 I just thought that being able to have sex
09:32 in harmony with the word of God,
09:34 and with the blessing of Jesus would take care of everything.
09:37 Steve, it was a terrible mistake,
09:40 I mean I married a wonderful woman
09:41 who is a Christian,
09:42 and wanted to be a missionary's wife
09:44 and all of that but it was soon
09:47 after I was married that I realized,
09:49 I made a terrible mistake
09:51 that marriage was not the solution to my problem.
09:56 It was years later,
09:57 that I've discovered that Jesus was the solution.
09:59 That's right, and also getting out of the marriage
10:02 was not the solution to your problem neither really.
10:04 And, you know it to me, it's tragic
10:06 when I watched certain programs or read certain things
10:10 and people that I know or that I become acquainted
10:13 with that they have left their spouses,
10:16 they've left their children,
10:19 they've violated their marriage vows,
10:22 that they brought unconceivable pain
10:25 and damage so that they could,
10:28 you know go out and find themselves
10:32 and find their identity
10:34 through that fulfillment of an attraction to either,
10:40 you know, with a man, another woman
10:42 or with a man or another man
10:44 or a woman leaving her husband
10:45 because she wants to be with another women.
10:47 You know the whole thing is just--
10:50 it's just tragic and it's resulting
10:52 in so much, so much pain.
10:55 You know, Satan, just rejoices over that
10:58 because his whole purpose is to cause pain.
11:01 And I think one of the sure indications
11:05 to me that this is a sin issue is that
11:07 it causes people so much pain.
11:10 You know, God's way causes no one pain,
11:13 but if you're hurting you parents,
11:15 and you're hurting your wife,
11:16 and you're hurting your children
11:18 and you're hurting other people.
11:19 Isn't that an indication that, that sin in involved?
11:22 That's right.
11:23 The missing element is clearly to me today
11:27 is intimacy with Jesus Christ.
11:29 You see if--
11:30 that's missing, then everything gets all out of wag.
11:33 And we're gonna zero in on that,
11:35 like a train before we've done.
11:38 But I want to go back to--
11:39 When you mention the name Satan,
11:41 and when you said that it just triggered in my mind,
11:44 the thought that, you know,
11:45 Satan is an angel, he's a fallen angel.
11:49 And as far as we know, he was not created
11:52 with the capacity to procreate.
11:55 And I, you know, I have an opinion on that,
11:58 that one of the reasons
11:59 why Satan hates humanity so much.
12:03 And wants that mess us up
12:04 is because he doesn't have that original capacity
12:08 so he looks at men, he looks at women,
12:11 and he just hates us, he hates God.
12:12 And he wants to mess everything up,
12:14 bring all this confusion makes sex,
12:16 you know, so important,
12:17 some people would think of salvation by sex.
12:19 Some people think that through,
12:20 through sex they're gonna be fulfilled.
12:22 And like you mentioned the media
12:24 and all this misunderstandings, it's just all over the place,
12:27 and it's because the devil hates humanity.
12:30 And he's trying to mess us up on sex.
12:32 Yeah, I think he looks at-- in fact somebody came to me
12:34 after presentation of mine said,
12:36 why do you think that Satan has such a heyday
12:38 with the sex thing?
12:40 And I said, I don't know
12:41 'cause he's dealing with our feelings,
12:42 and they said, yeah, but that and a whole lot more.
12:45 He doesn't have the capability of doing that himself
12:48 so he pushes the sex button, and he watches rape,
12:51 he watches child molestation, he watches the counterfeit
12:54 of God's union of a man and a woman.
12:56 He pushes all these buttons based on sex.
12:59 Do you think he has a problem with pornography?
13:03 In other words,
13:04 he enjoys watching the violation--
13:07 He likes initiating that problem, that's for sure.
13:10 And there's all, you know, we have a whole,
13:11 we have a sex, we have a world
13:14 that is mixed up and often addicted to sex.
13:17 Now I want to-- we got so much time I want to move on.
13:20 Reparative therapy is a term or a phrase
13:24 that I've heard a number of times,
13:27 and I think it ties in with this topic.
13:29 So explain what is it and what's wrong with it?
13:33 To me the focus on reparative therapy
13:35 is the wrong place.
13:36 Okay, what is it? What is reparative therapy?
13:37 Reparative therapy says that we can take a gay person
13:41 and through the course of therapy,
13:42 we can change their focus
13:44 and help them to become heterosexual.
13:47 In Reparative therapy, in most reparative therapies
13:50 there is the missing element of Jesus Christ.
13:52 So now the focus is not on Jesus,
13:55 but it's on the type of sex we're having.
13:57 And so if you are being called or someone's telling you
14:02 that they want you to become normal,
14:04 so you go to a reparative therapist
14:07 and they promise that you'll change.
14:09 And so you keep going through,
14:10 and there is some really bizarre things
14:12 that they'll have you do
14:13 that we don't have time to go into,
14:16 but it is to help you lose your attraction
14:18 to the same gender and to engage with the intimacy
14:21 between a man and a woman,
14:23 and then hopefully by the end
14:24 of the course of treatment, you'll be straight.
14:27 If you fail then what's your recourse?
14:30 Is you either like you fail
14:32 because you don't think you are good enough person.
14:34 You end up committing suicide
14:35 or you return to the gay community
14:37 and you mean never have the desire
14:39 to come out of the gay community again
14:41 'cause you're sure you can't end up
14:43 having sex with the woman.
14:45 And so again it removes the focus of Jesus Christ.
14:50 Pastor Ron?
14:52 Yes, yeah, I agree with that.
14:56 And he mentioned the fact that some of these
14:59 people that have tried it
15:00 and failed, they commit suicide and you know in the ministry
15:05 that we have that's one of the charges
15:08 that we keep hearing that your message
15:11 will cause people to commit suicide
15:13 because they can't do what you're doing,
15:15 you are an exception.
15:17 Of course, I would say every Christian should feel
15:20 that they are an exception.
15:22 We're an exception to the rule when we're redeemed,
15:25 but we have to understand too that
15:27 suicide is the high incidence among the gay community,
15:32 with or without reparative therapy.
15:34 And I don't think we can blame reparative therapy,
15:37 and I don't think--
15:39 there again it's the blame game, isn't it?
15:41 Suicide's a problem all across.
15:42 People of all walks of life commits suicide.
15:45 And I think that takes the focus
15:47 of the purpose of the gospel,
15:50 when we start blaming suicide on preaching the gospel.
15:54 So reparative therapy is a method, a worldly method
15:59 of trying to make a homosexual person
16:01 heterosexual or lesbian,
16:03 someone that likes boys and so often it doesn't work.
16:08 And so but again we have the premise,
16:12 you know, salvation by sex that if you,
16:13 if you change your sex
16:16 then you're "saved" or you're normal,
16:20 or you are the way you're supposed to be through sex.
16:25 And yet still you know, to me it isn't an again
16:27 an overemphasis is on sex and--
16:31 It's not necessarily
16:32 a worldly program, I mean there are--
16:34 It's in the churches too.
16:35 There are Christians involved in this too.
16:37 You know I read, I just want one quick second then,
16:40 I read Alan Chambers' book Leaving Homosexuality
16:43 when he was the president of Exodus International
16:46 and he addressed this.
16:47 And it was a very powerful point that he made
16:49 that for him as a former homosexual,
16:54 he said, he had to really get it straight
16:58 and the message was that
17:00 God's primary calling on his life
17:03 was not to change him from a homosexual
17:07 into a heterosexual or at least not a,
17:09 you know and obviously he wasn't at that time
17:11 when he wrote the book of practicing homosexual.
17:13 But God's goal was not to make him
17:16 into a heterosexual
17:18 but it was to bring him to holiness.
17:22 It's not from homosexuality to heterosexuality,
17:25 primarily it is to holiness
17:28 which is really God's call for married, single,
17:34 for anybody is to leave sin
17:36 behind us, leave sin behind us.
17:40 Give our lives to God and there's a verse in 1 Peter
17:44 that says God he says
17:46 "That I have called you to be holy,
17:49 be holy for I am holy,
17:50 that's my calling on your life".
17:53 That was the exact point I was going to make.
17:54 You can say that.
17:56 Yeah, when I share today,
17:57 I-- immediately I want to help people understand
18:01 the opposite of homosexuality is not so much heterosexuality.
18:05 As it is holding us or that been the opposite
18:07 of any sin or sin temptation.
18:09 Let's take a look at a Bible verse up.
18:11 Pastor Ron, you mentioned earlier
18:13 that you found a verse in Luke 17:19.
18:19 And, Wayne, why don't you look up Colossians 2:10,
18:24 we can look at both those verses
18:27 and there's a message, a real message in that
18:31 in both of these verses
18:32 concerning wholeness and salvation.
18:35 My Bible tells me in Romans 3
18:41 that a person is justified not by works,
18:46 but by his faith in Jesus Christ,
18:49 that when we chose to give up sin,
18:51 Justification which means acceptance with God,
18:55 and you are right with God,
18:57 that comes not by getting married
19:01 or changing your orientation
19:03 or having all temptation go away,
19:06 it comes when you surrender your life
19:08 and you have faith in Jesus Christ.
19:10 Now read those couple of other texts.
19:13 Now this one in Luke 17 is about the Samaritan leper
19:18 that Jesus healed and He told him,
19:21 Jesus told the Samaritan, "Arise go thy way,
19:25 thy faith hath made thee whole."
19:28 Your faith has made you whole.
19:30 So this man was whole. He was whole.
19:31 Had nothing to do with marriage.
19:33 Or sex. Or sex.
19:34 Or changing his orientation.
19:35 It was faith in Jesus.
19:36 It was faith in Jesus.
19:37 And here he was, he was whole
19:39 And Jesus said that.
19:40 So in God's sight that leper who could represent sinners,
19:44 you know, we're all sinners.
19:46 And whatever our bent or our tendency
19:47 or whatever it is our sins,
19:50 Jesus said by your faith in me Jesus said,
19:54 it's made you whole.
19:55 You are a whole person once again
19:58 through your faith in the Son of God.
20:00 Okay, Wayne read the Colossians.
20:03 "And you are complete in him,
20:05 who is the head of all principality and power."
20:09 Yeah, I just love that verse.
20:11 Yeah, you are complete.
20:14 Now, so again, you know,
20:16 God is calling us to repent of sin.
20:19 We do need to do that,
20:21 but once we've done that and we trust in Him,
20:24 we can find completeness in Christ.
20:27 Does the Bible teach that you've to be married
20:29 in order to be saved.
20:30 Nothing that I've found.
20:31 Have you found the text like that?
20:32 Well, Jesus wasn't and neither was the Apostle Paul.
20:37 And John the Baptist and Daniel and Jeremiah.
20:40 That's right, and Paul wrote in Corinthians out
20:42 to the married I say this, to the unmarried I say that,
20:45 and yeah I think of something to think about
20:47 that Jesus Christ who is God becoming a man in human form
20:52 so we could see a revelation of God's love,
20:55 Jesus Christ never had sex.
20:58 He never had sex and He never got married,
21:00 but yet are we gonna say that Jesus himself isn't complete.
21:05 You know obviously not.
21:06 So sex does not need to define us.
21:12 Life is bigger than that.
21:13 Yeah, Mathew 19 even tells us
21:15 that there will be those who would be eunuchs for heaven.
21:18 And some chose it, some are,
21:22 you know, forced like in Daniel's case.
21:23 He didn't have much of a choice.
21:25 But other people can chose,
21:26 they didn't choose it's hard to say.
21:28 He who can accept it, let him accept it.
21:30 That's right.
21:31 And so there's choices you know about.
21:33 I want to get to another, another issue
21:35 and that is the whole sex change issue,
21:38 because it's happening around us.
21:40 You know, all know people,
21:41 I went to college with a young man who was a boy.
21:45 But later on he went through a change,
21:46 he had surgery and he became a girl.
21:49 And we know that there are people
21:51 that have those changes, you know, the surgeries,
21:54 they're confused or whatever,
21:55 they feel like they should be what they're not.
21:58 And sometimes on the other side of those changes,
22:03 God makes a move on them.
22:05 Because God still loves people
22:06 that are transgenders, doesn't He?
22:08 He loves those who've had the surgery,
22:10 I mean I think Jesus really loves them,
22:12 and He just wants to get a hold of them
22:13 and change their lives, I think that.
22:15 So let's say someone comes into a--
22:17 in awareness of this
22:19 and he really he gets on his knees,
22:23 whether he's a man who is now like a woman,
22:26 or a woman like a man, they get on their knees
22:28 and they ask Jesus to come in their heart.
22:30 And then they walk into a church.
22:32 Do they have to go through, is it salvation by sex?
22:35 Do they have to go through a sex change?
22:37 If they have the money to go through another surgery
22:39 in order for them to truly be complete
22:42 or whole in the sight of God.
22:45 You know, had to Christians to deal with this and what,
22:46 you know, what's your thought on that?
22:48 Jesus does meet us where we are
22:51 and you know it is like
22:53 when I was studying my way out of the gay life,
22:56 I was drinking margaritas and smoking cigarettes
22:59 and reading God's word looking for answers.
23:02 God met me where I was and a person like this,
23:06 you know, the Bible tells us
23:08 Jesus himself said seek ye first
23:10 the kingdom of God and His righteousness
23:13 and all these things shall be added unto you.
23:16 If a person like that comes to accept Jesus
23:19 and realizes they've made a terrible mistake.
23:22 The focus should be first developing
23:24 your relationship with Jesus
23:27 and the word says all of these things
23:29 shall be added unto you.
23:31 So the Lord will reveal unto that person
23:34 I think what needs to be done.
23:36 We don't always have the answers in our humanity.
23:41 When we meet someone in situation like that,
23:44 some of these medical conditions
23:46 and hormone conditions that are hard to explain.
23:49 Yes, you mentioned that someone that was high.
23:52 Probably ten times the level of estrogen of a woman
23:55 and this was a teenage boy with hardly any testosterone
23:58 and the parents and the pastor wanted me to tell them
24:00 what did they do.
24:02 When I met this person,
24:03 the Lord prompted me instantly
24:06 that this person's problem was not hormonal
24:10 and sex oriented, he was a person without Jesus
24:15 and I said why worry about changing
24:17 this person's identity,
24:21 general identity at this point.
24:24 What this person needs is Jesus.
24:27 Seek first Jesus, that is the main point.
24:30 The other things will come by beholding Him,
24:33 we become changed.
24:34 And they come step by step, don't they?
24:36 And if a person doesn't get to a step
24:38 where they get to have the money
24:39 or have the surgery,
24:40 you know, the Lord's gonna give us
24:41 new bodies when He comes.
24:43 And we nurture along the way.
24:45 Yes, as church congregations
24:47 we're asked to love as Jesus loved
24:50 to be disciples of Jesus,
24:52 to not so much have expectations
24:54 but to love the individual, to pray for the individual
24:57 and walk with them as they're walking with God.
24:59 So we should serve to someone,
25:00 the pastor shouldn't stand at the door of the church
25:02 and say to a transgender
25:05 who wants to come to God and come to church.
25:09 They shouldn't say, now wait,
25:10 you know, you have to go out
25:11 and get your change back, be change back
25:14 and then once you're changed back,
25:15 then we'll let you in.
25:17 The doors should be open for worship.
25:20 Membership is sacred, that's a different level
25:24 but anyone should feel that
25:25 they can walk into the doors of our churches
25:28 and find sanctuary and find Jesus.
25:31 Yeah, that the church is still should be a hospital
25:34 for sinners and we're all sinners.
25:36 And you know, sin is, it's difficult
25:40 but God deals with it all the time
25:44 and He loves sinners in spite of their sin
25:46 and He is in the business
25:47 of saving sinners from their sins.
25:49 For many years now.
25:51 And the church needs to be the hands
25:54 and the voice and the heart of the compassionate God.
25:58 That's right, who welcomes,
25:59 you know, the prodigal son when he was out there,
26:01 if he had a sex change and then he came back,
26:04 I still think the father would have run out to him
26:06 and put his arms around him
26:08 and welcomed him home, don't you think?
26:11 Yes, absolutely.
26:12 I'm sure, I'm sure.
26:13 Well, we're down near the end.
26:14 I just want to zero back in on Colossians 2:10.
26:18 To me this verse is so powerful
26:20 and it shows that we're not saved by sex.
26:22 We're not saved by sex changes.
26:24 We are saved through Jesus and He is the center.
26:31 He wants to be the center of our lives and of your life.
26:34 Colossians 2:10 says, "You are complete in Him."
26:40 If you are searching for wholeness,
26:42 it's not gonna come from sex.
26:45 Wholeness and completeness
26:47 and your humanity being restored
26:50 is going to come through Jesus Christ alone.
26:54 It's through Him and He loves you,
26:56 He wants you, no matter how messed up
26:57 you may be, He loves you,
26:59 He wants you and He's calling
27:02 wherever you are, whatever you've done.
27:04 He's calling you to give your life to Him
27:07 and He will make you complete in Him
27:09 and He'll lead you step by step where He wants you to go.
27:14 So we've got more to come, another program next,
27:16 so tune in for the next edition of Coming Out.
27:22 If you would like to order the 13 part Coming Out series
27:25 for $34.95 plus shipping, call 1-800-782-4253.
27:30 Or write to White Horse Media,
27:32 PO Box 1139,
27:33 Newport, Washington, 99156.
27:36 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Dwayne Blakely
27:38 and Mike Carducci are each available
27:40 to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:42 To schedule a speaking engagement,
27:43 contact Coming Out Ministries
27:45 by calling 360-936-8514,
27:49 or visit comingoutministries.org.