Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Ron Woolsey, Mike Carducci
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000012
00:09 Believe it or not, we are at war.
00:12 Whose side are you on?
00:14 Next on, "Coming Out."
01:01 Welcome to part 12 of "Coming Out"
01:03 a special series that deals with big issues
01:06 facing the church, the world, and our own hearts.
01:09 Our title is called, "The War Against our Souls."
01:12 We have been discussing same sex attraction
01:16 and people's struggles within themselves.
01:19 But now we're gonna take another step
01:21 and we're gonna talk about the war
01:23 that is going on against the family,
01:25 against the home, against children
01:28 and ultimately, it's against our own hearts and our souls,
01:33 trying to bring us down into a very, very dark place.
01:38 I'm here with Mike Carducci and Pastor Ron Woolsey,
01:42 two of the five co-founders of "Coming Out."
01:46 And you have dedicated your lives
01:47 to your God and to the Bible
01:50 and to helping people to understand
01:52 the issues that so many are facing.
01:54 Now let me-- before I ask you my first question,
01:56 let me just kind of give a background
01:59 that in the last 11 programs,
02:01 we have been talking as thoughtfully as we can
02:06 about the issue of same sex attraction
02:09 and how people are, you know, dealing with this and,
02:12 and the help that is available for those that are struggling.
02:16 But as we look around, it sure is pretty clear
02:21 that there is a segment that I want to stress,
02:23 a segment that doesn't seem to be struggling anymore,
02:28 they seem to have pretty much decided where they are at.
02:32 And they are taking their own stands
02:35 and they have-- there is a segment,
02:36 for a lack of a better word,
02:37 that has become quite militant in advancing their views.
02:42 So let's talk about that, tell us,
02:44 just a little bit about what's going on these days.
02:47 Well, I have a client, who told me years ago,
02:50 couple years ago, she was opening up the nursery
02:53 and that she was told that
02:55 if she wanted to receive government funding,
02:56 that if she puts same sex parent on the walls
02:59 and taught kids to cross dress,
03:02 letting-- we're talking about 2 year olds to 5 year olds
03:05 cross dressing, that she could actually
03:07 receive government funding.
03:09 And what state, what state was this in?
03:10 Tennessee. Tennessee.
03:13 So what do you think about that?
03:17 She was very upset,
03:18 and according to her Christian beliefs,
03:22 she didn't feel that was right and she was refusing the--
03:24 the government money,
03:25 which actually made it harder for her to do business
03:27 but she was standing by her conviction
03:29 and she was not going to-- she wasn't gonna do it.
03:34 She wasn't going to budge.
03:35 She felt it's time to take a stand,
03:37 money or no money,
03:38 this just isn't, this isn't right.
03:39 Right. Pastor Ron.
03:42 Yes, Steve, in Luke, Chapter 17 we read that,
03:46 Jesus warned him, that as it was in a days of Lot,
03:49 "Thus shall it be in the day
03:51 when the Son of man is revealed."
03:53 And in other words,
03:54 the evils that were associated with Sodom and Gomorrah
03:56 would be very prevalent on a global basis
04:00 just before the coming of Jesus.
04:02 And of course, homosexuality was one of those evils
04:06 and just in our lifetime,
04:08 we've seen the gay movement seeking and fighting,
04:12 just we tolerate it and left alone.
04:15 And they've advanced to acceptance,
04:18 the level of acceptance, then to equal rights,
04:22 then to the celebration of being gay
04:25 with gay pride months and parades,
04:29 from there it is gone on to a higher level of promotion
04:33 of homosexuality through the education system.
04:38 And now beyond that, they have sought privilege
04:40 through minority status so that--
04:43 they are looking to become a special segment of society
04:47 with special privileges.
04:49 And they are initiating legislation
04:52 through states and through,
04:54 on a national level to promote this agenda of homosexuality,
05:00 this segment that is very political and very militant.
05:04 They've now even become a persecuting power
05:07 and we have examples to show
05:09 that they've gone all the way from tolerance,
05:11 just wanting tolerance, to becoming intolerant,
05:14 to becoming the persecuting power themselves.
05:17 And I think we do want to make it clear that
05:19 this does not apply to everybody.
05:20 No, this is, that's second-- Right, right.
05:22 Sure, I mean as you were struggling
05:24 and dealing with your own life and coming out,
05:27 you certainly weren't on that kind of band wagon, were you?
05:31 I don't think we really knew what we were caught up in,
05:34 we were in the gay life and we were kind of
05:36 drafting behind this political and very aggressive movement,
05:41 not knowing where it was headed.
05:43 You know, I marched on Washington
05:45 when President Clinton was elected in office,
05:48 demanding those rights, and you know, I think that,
05:51 that even good hearted men and women
05:53 that are in the homosexual, life style--
05:56 I don't believe that many of them
05:58 thought of as been militant,
06:00 as really just demand for equal rights
06:02 and I've certainly was involved in that
06:05 and I believe that I was entitled to those rights.
06:08 And we all, we all have certain rights.
06:10 I mean everybody has. Right.
06:11 You know, the Declaration of Independence
06:13 that we all have inalienable rights.
06:15 That's right.
06:16 And we certainly don't want to deny people
06:19 who don't believe as we do, their own rights.
06:22 And if someone chooses to, to be gay,
06:26 to live a gay lifestyle that's their choice
06:28 and I'm certainly not someone that would try to force them
06:32 otherwise, you know, even God, I mean God Himself,
06:34 He gives people freedom to make a choice.
06:36 But when, when that choice then starts pushing itself
06:42 toward my kids, you know, I have a 6 year old little girl
06:45 and a 9 year old little boy
06:47 and you know, I'm gonna draw a line.
06:49 I mean, I'm a dad and when someone is pushing
06:53 to educate my children in things that you know,
06:58 I don't agree with,
07:00 I don't think our right, you know...
07:02 But you know, Steve--
07:03 It's just a-- it's moving my fatherhood.
07:07 You know, I've got to protect my kids.
07:08 But I'm glad that you brought that up
07:09 because I think that there are a lot of um,
07:12 homosexuals out there
07:13 that don't know that there's a choice in--
07:15 I certainly didn't even after I got baptized
07:17 and was walking with God,
07:18 I didn't realize that there was a choice involved.
07:21 And when I made that choice,
07:22 God still respected me along that journey
07:25 and if I chose not, then He respected it.
07:27 And I believe that we as Christians
07:28 we respect everyone's right to chose.
07:31 That's right.
07:32 But we also believe that we have the opportunity,
07:34 because of what we've experienced
07:36 and what we've gone through, that we want to give
07:38 other people out there an option too
07:40 and let them know that there is an option for you.
07:42 And so we are not trying to take away anyone's rights
07:45 and I think that the church has been guilty of that
07:48 but what we're trying to do is, is to redefined
07:50 and create a safe place in church culture,
07:52 where people can come and experience
07:55 the options that are out there
07:56 and not be limited to just one or the other.
07:59 Yes, and, and we've, we've talked about that
08:03 but today, now we're zeroing in on the militant way.
08:08 And didn't you have another quote about the goal--
08:10 Of the militant wing, when it comes to marriage
08:13 and when it comes to, you know, even my kids.
08:16 Right, this one is according to a Daniel Villarreal,
08:20 who's an LGBT journalist and activist.
08:22 He says, "Recruiting children?
08:24 You bet we are, and I would like very much
08:26 for many of these young boys to grow up
08:29 and start having sex with men"
08:31 and I changed the wording just a little bit but--
08:33 Sure, yeah, but you know, just think of that language,
08:35 recruiting children?
08:36 You bet we are. Yeah.
08:37 And you know, I would give my life for my kids
08:41 and you know-- I'm gonna restrain myself
08:45 from saying what I really, what my heart is telling me
08:48 after hearing a statement like that, Pastor Ron.
08:50 We have another shocking statement
08:51 from a very radical homosexual activist.
08:56 This lady, a lesbian, is a journalist,
08:58 her name is Masha Gessen, she can be seen on YouTube
09:02 and this is very public.
09:05 But she reveals the ultimate goal
09:07 of the gay agenda,
09:08 this political militant segment, she says,
09:13 I mean it is the eradication of marriage altogether
09:16 and this is her quote,
09:18 "fighting for gay marriage generally involves
09:20 lying about what we're going to do with marriage
09:23 when we get there,
09:24 the institution of marriage should not exist.
09:28 We lie that the institution of marriage
09:30 is not going to change, that is a lie.
09:32 What we want is not compatible
09:35 with the institution of marriage."
09:37 And this was on a public talk show,
09:40 they're not ashamed or timid
09:44 about what their ultimate goal really is.
09:47 Let's go the Bible. Yeah.
09:49 First, let's talk about the war and how this issue
09:52 really is a war, and how it's a personal war.
09:55 Yeah, there's a text that we've discussed in Peter 1:2
10:00 and I believe verse 9 talks about coming out
10:03 which is really your motto, your text
10:05 to come out of the darkness into his marvelous light.
10:08 And then verse 11, Mike, why don't you read verse 11?
10:12 Because it uses the word war.
10:14 "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims,
10:18 abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul"
10:22 "Which was against the soul", so what is that for say,
10:25 is warring against the soul?
10:27 Fleshy lust?
10:28 Yeah, fleshy lusts, and I think it's safe to apply that
10:32 to many different kinds of lust.
10:34 Wouldn't you say? Yes.
10:35 I mean it's not one lust, there's all kinds of lusts,
10:38 but they are you know, lust from the flesh,
10:41 what the flesh wants to do, contrary to God's will.
10:45 You know, my own fleshy lusts are warring against my soul
10:50 and you've dealt with that, I've dealt with that.
10:53 We're all dealing with that.
10:54 That's right, we are dealing with that and we have to--
10:57 you know, I've just come to the conclusion that
10:59 I've got to take a stand, against my own,
11:02 you know, my own desires.
11:04 If I'm gonna live a pure, clean life,
11:06 I have to take a stand, I have to fight back
11:10 against temptation, against my flesh,
11:12 against things that would pull me into darkness.
11:15 And this whole issue of the flesh and lust,
11:18 it uses the word lust too.
11:19 It says fleshy lusts which war against the soul,
11:23 that you know I, I believe the devil is using sex
11:27 and other lusts to, to destroy people.
11:31 And we're in about-- we're in a war.
11:34 It's very, very serious.
11:35 And what we're seeing in society
11:38 is a reflection of that war, is it not?
11:41 Yes, absolutely.
11:43 Now in just very close by here, in Oregon,
11:47 just as here we had a report of the,
11:51 of an Oregon Christian bakery
11:53 facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines
11:57 after refusing to make a wedding cake
11:59 for a lesbian couple.
12:01 There was severe backlash when they took their stand,
12:04 now they're protest and picketing
12:07 and threats to customers
12:09 and even death threats to their children.
12:11 Oh, my God.
12:12 Now, this is-- this is really hate speech.
12:16 When we're quoting the word of God
12:17 it's not hate speech, God is love.
12:20 But, but it's a sad state of affairs to realize that today,
12:25 just quoting the word of God
12:27 can bring down accusations of hate speech.
12:31 Where as this can go on and nothing is said about it.
12:35 Where, it is a war. Yeah.
12:36 We, we've battle with this ourselves all those years
12:41 struggling against what was going on inside,
12:43 finally giving up in defeat in that war.
12:48 So we have the internal battle going on
12:50 but we also have this battle going on through out society.
12:55 Wow, what a contact now-- but what you just read about,
12:58 that wasn't in America, right?
13:00 Uh, no, it was in Oregon.
13:02 Oh, in Oregon. Yes.
13:04 Oh, my, yes.
13:05 Yes, we have a whole string of examples
13:08 but we don't have time to go through all that.
13:09 Well, let's take a look at some more Bible verses,
13:11 let's go to Ephesians, Ephesians 6:1-4,
13:16 these verses have really spoken to my heart
13:19 concerning this issue, Mike, you or Pastor--
13:22 Sure. Mike.
13:23 "Children, obey your parents in the Lord,
13:25 for this is right.
13:27 Honor your father and mother
13:29 which is the first commandment with promise,
13:31 that it may be well with you
13:33 and that you may live long on the earth.
13:36 And you, fathers, provoke not your children to wrath
13:38 but bring them up in the nurture
13:40 and an admonition of the Lord."
13:43 Well, these are powerful verses,
13:44 they've really spoke to my heart.
13:45 And you know if you look closely,
13:47 they deal with children, they deal with parents,
13:49 they deal with the law of God honoring your father,
13:53 your mother and they deal with the--
13:55 verse 4 talks about fathers raising children
13:59 in the nurture, which is the love--
14:01 And the admonition, which is the discipline
14:04 of the Lord and to teach children
14:08 to honor their parents because this is right.
14:11 And really the stand that we are taking,
14:14 based on the Bible is on what's right,
14:17 and I know people question that
14:18 and they say no, it's-- you're not right.
14:21 But we believe it is right because the Bible says,
14:23 children are to obey parents, there's a father and the mother
14:27 and home and the family
14:29 and raising kids in the family with parents,
14:33 acting the way they should toward their children,
14:36 this is what's right and, and are we not in a war
14:39 between what is right and what is wrong.
14:41 Between righteousness and sin
14:43 and ultimately it's between God and who else?
14:47 And satan.
14:48 That's right, God and His former chief officer,
14:51 Satan himself.
14:55 Yes, very much so, I--
14:58 you know in these last days we're told,
15:03 again looking at Luke 17 that "as it was in the days of Lot,
15:08 that shall it be in the day
15:09 when the Son of man is revealed."
15:11 And you know, we look in history
15:13 and we see that an open acceptance
15:17 and toleration and even celebration of homosexuality
15:21 signaled the end of the culture of Greece.
15:24 It did the same with the culture of Rome
15:27 and what, what I am observing today,
15:30 what I believe is that as this is been legislated,
15:34 the redefinition of marriage
15:36 being legislated around the world,
15:38 to me it is a signal of the demise of global society
15:43 just before the coming of Jesus.
15:45 And there certainly was a militant form
15:50 of same sex attraction within Sodom,
15:53 apart from-- apart from the issue itself.
15:55 They certainly was, I mean they--
15:57 they surrounded Lot's house,
16:00 they wanted those two strangers that had come in,
16:03 they were under Lot's roof,
16:04 they were trying to bang down the door
16:07 when Lot came out, they pushed him in
16:10 and again try to get in and get these men
16:13 and it was a very, very bad scene
16:18 and I think there's a verse in Jude, isn't there,
16:20 that really shows what happened as a result of this.
16:26 Well, that certainly show's us
16:27 how God feels about this issue.
16:29 And so much today that we hear and see and read
16:33 leaves God's feelings and emotions
16:35 totally out of the picture.
16:36 And as Christians we should consider His thoughts
16:40 feelings emotions and words first,
16:43 and this text clearly reveals how God feels about this issue.
16:46 And what verse is that?
16:47 Verse 7, Jude, verse 7, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha,
16:52 and the cities about them in like manner,
16:54 giving themselves over to fornication,
16:56 and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example."
17:02 In other words, we can look at them and see
17:05 how God feels and how he will deal with this eventually.
17:09 "Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
17:13 And my Bible says, "Going after strange flesh,"
17:17 next to the word strange there's a two
17:20 taking it to the marginal reference
17:22 which is other, other flesh.
17:24 Which, doesn't that parallel Romans 1,
17:26 where it talks about, man burning in their lusts
17:31 for one another and women going against nature
17:35 and burning in their lusts for each other.
17:38 This is not, you know, God's plan.
17:41 As we've studied in Genesis
17:44 is for a man to be with the woman
17:47 and a woman to be with a man in marriage
17:49 and then you raise, you have children in this environment,
17:53 that's God's plan.
17:54 You know, you know, in a mixed up world,
17:57 we often get off track and God accepts us
18:00 and works with us, where we are.
18:01 Amen. But that's still God's plan.
18:04 And so, you know, I don't know how,
18:06 when you look at what happened in Sodom, Genesis 19,
18:08 and you look at this verse,
18:09 that they not only gave themselves over to fornication
18:11 but they also went after strange flesh.
18:14 It show's that was part of the problem in Sodom
18:17 and the consequence was what?
18:19 What was the consequence?
18:21 Well, God revealed how he felt
18:23 and he dealt with it with judgments.
18:25 They ended up suffering the vengeance of eternal fire,
18:32 That's right and like He mentioned
18:34 in Luke 17: 28-30,
18:39 "Jesus said, 'as it was in the days of Lot.'
18:45 " That's the way it will be, right before he comes.
18:49 So are we witnessing another sign of the times?
18:53 Right. Among many signs.
18:55 Right, you know, another sign would be
18:57 this quote from
18:58 Michelangelo Signorile, it says,
19:00 "a middle ground might be to fight for same-sex marriage
19:03 and its benefits and then, once granted,
19:06 redefine the institution of marriage completely,
19:08 to demand the right to marry
19:10 not as a way of adhering to society's moral codes
19:13 but rather to debunk a myth
19:15 and radically alter an archaic institution.
19:17 It is also a chance to wholly transform
19:20 the definition of family in American culture."
19:23 And again, we see that these things that are coming
19:26 are the fulfillment of what we're reading
19:28 in Jude and in Luke.
19:29 And who was that again that said that?
19:31 Michelangelo Signorile. And who is he?
19:34 Gay activist, editor-at-large for the Gay Voices
19:36 Vertical of the Huffington Post.
19:39 And so-- I mean that man
19:42 and the segment that he represents
19:44 they are definitely at war with marriage.
19:46 What does he say again?
19:47 He wants to eliminate marriage--
19:49 To wholly transform the definition of family,
19:52 but yes, to rather debunk a myth
19:54 and radically alter an archaic institution.
19:56 So marriage is considered a myth,
19:58 it's considered an archaic institution
20:00 that needs to be abolished.
20:02 And there is group out there and that's what they're,
20:04 that's what they are seeking.
20:05 That is affirmation of what Masha Gessen was saying also,
20:10 it's another voice saying the same thing.
20:12 Saying the same thing.
20:13 And know with marriage being created in the Garden of Eden,
20:16 one of the two institutions of the Garden of Eden
20:19 is obvious that from the beginning
20:20 Satan has hated that marriage
20:23 because if can disrupt that union and corrupt it
20:27 then what he does, he defaces the very image of God
20:32 to the children that are born into this world.
20:35 They don't see Him as clearly as they would see
20:39 in a God ordained marriage with father and mother.
20:42 To get confused. Yes.
20:44 And the Bible says in Corinthians
20:46 that God is not the author of confusion,
20:49 He's not the source of this, He's plans is a plan of peace.
20:52 Well, let's go to one other passage
20:54 which to me as where we're leading
20:56 with all of this is Revelation 12:17.
21:01 This is the last book of the Bible,
21:03 it's an apocalyptic book,
21:05 it deals with the apocalyptic issues
21:07 and we believe that there is an apocalyptic dimension
21:10 to this struggle that we're talking about
21:14 and where dealing with and addressing.
21:17 Who would like to read chapter, Revelation 12:17?
21:23 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
21:25 and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
21:28 which keep the commandments of God,
21:30 and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
21:33 Right, powerful text,
21:34 that text has just burned into my soul.
21:36 It's a verse in the last book of the Bible
21:38 that describes a war,
21:40 and again, this fits our title, "War".
21:42 The war against our souls and it says that the dragon,
21:45 who represents the devil, Satan, Lucifer gone bad,
21:49 that he is angry with the woman,
21:52 he hates the woman,
21:54 which represents God's people and he went to make war
21:56 with the remnant, God's gonna have a final group,
21:59 the remnant of her seed and their characteristics are,
22:03 they keep the commandments of God
22:05 and they have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
22:08 I have here solid tables of stone,
22:13 sometimes I-- I carry in my seminars
22:16 when I go around the country and hold meetings.
22:19 And this is table number two of the big 10,
22:24 which God wrote with his own finger on stone.
22:26 And if you look at these commandment number five says,
22:30 honor your father and your mother.
22:33 That shows God's plan for the home,
22:36 is it there be a father, there be a mother
22:38 and that children are commanded
22:40 to honor their fathers and their mothers
22:42 because this is what's best.
22:43 This is what makes for, for respect and love
22:47 and good home, where kids can grow up in that kind of home.
22:51 So there's commandment number five,
22:53 number six which we haven't really talked about
22:56 but we all have convictions about this.
22:59 Number six says, "Do not kill or do not murder",
23:02 and I mean the devil today is attacking number five.
23:06 The dragon, the devil, working through society
23:09 is attacking marriage,
23:10 he's attacking the commandment about killing and--
23:15 you know we're not gonna spend much time on this
23:16 but we all agree that killing babies
23:20 before they're born is just a nightmare.
23:24 And satan-- the Bible says, satan is attacking God's law,
23:28 he's attacking number five, he's attacking number six,
23:30 number seven, "you shall not commit adultery",
23:32 deals with marriage and with the sexual purity
23:36 in the marriage relationship.
23:38 And Satan is attacking that one and then I--
23:40 you know I can't help this morning, as I woke up,
23:42 I got on my knees and I started praying.
23:43 And I-- my mind went to commandment number nine,
23:47 which says, "you shall not bear false witness
23:49 against your neighbor."
23:51 And the Bible says in Romans 13:10, that,
23:55 "love is the fulfilling of the law",
23:57 that God's law really is the law of love.
23:59 It's for our best, not interest,
24:02 it's for the good of society, for the good homes,
24:04 children, marriages.
24:05 And it's a fact that those who take a stand
24:12 for moral principles based on the law of God,
24:16 that they are often attacked.
24:19 Now I know that people can take these stands in a bad way
24:25 but even those who take a stand in the right way,
24:27 in a loving way, standing up for the law of God
24:29 and for moral principles, many times people will just
24:33 automatically accused us of hate speech.
24:36 Because we're focusing on these principles
24:40 and in my mind when I look at that ninth commandment,
24:43 "don't bare false witness", I mean you've got number five,
24:46 the home, you got number six, don't murder.
24:48 You got number seven, sexual purity in marriage.
24:51 And you got number nine don't bare false witness.
24:54 And it seems to me that it was a lot of people
24:56 that are gonna bear false witness against us
24:58 because we are standing up for the law of God.
25:01 But God is behind His law, He wrote these commandments,
25:06 with his own finger on stone and it is time for God's people
25:13 to take a stand, for men of God to stand up,
25:17 for women of God to stand up for his principles,
25:20 which are really loving principles
25:23 for the best interest of all.
25:26 Now I think it is true, Steve, a sign of the times,
25:30 that in quoting the word of God,
25:32 you are accused of hate speech and I know Mike has that,
25:35 that quote I was referring to earlier
25:37 and he has it right here.
25:38 Want me to read it?
25:39 About-- yes, just quoting the word of God,
25:41 you are accused of violent and hateful speech.
25:44 According to Phil Robertson, he says,
25:46 "Our culture has accepted two huge lies.
25:49 The first is that if you disagree
25:51 with somebody's lifestyle that you must fear or hate them.
25:54 The second lie is that to love someone means that
25:57 you must agree with everything that they believe or do.
26:00 Both are nonsense", he says.
26:02 "You don't have to compromise convictions
26:04 to be compassionate."
26:06 Powerful quote.
26:07 Yeah, well, and we don't-- we got to hold our convictions,
26:11 we've got to be compassionate
26:13 but we have to stand for principle.
26:15 We have to stand up for what's right.
26:16 What's that stake is the home, marriage,
26:19 children and ultimately the word of God,
26:21 the law of God and God's truth,
26:23 and you know something that has impressed me so deeply
26:26 is that the finger that wrote the law,
26:30 was on a hand, the new testament says,
26:32 that was nailed to across.
26:35 Nailed to cross for our sins, Jesus Christ died on the cross
26:40 because we've broken the law.
26:41 He died to save us, to cleanse us and to purify us.
26:46 And to prepare us for a happy heaven.
26:49 During the civil war Abraham Lincoln,
26:51 was once asked, he said, he was asked,
26:54 "Brother Lincoln, in this fight against slavery,
26:57 do you think that God is on our side?"
27:00 and his response was, 'I'm not so concerned
27:02 whether God is on our side or not.
27:04 But the big question is, are we on his side?"
27:09 We are in a war and may God help you,
27:11 may He help me to stand up for God
27:14 and be on His side in this battle.
27:18 If you would like to order the 13 part,
27:20 'Coming Out" series for $34.95 plus shipping,
27:23 call 1-800-782-4253.
27:27 Or write to White Horse Media, PO box 1139,
27:29 Newport, Washington, 99156.
27:32 Pastor Ron Woolsey,
27:34 Dwayne Blakely and Mike Carducci
27:35 are each available to conduct a seminar in your area.
27:38 To schedule a speaking engagement,
27:40 contact Coming Out ministries by calling 360-936-8514,
27:45 or visit Comingoutministries.org.