Participants: Pr. John Carter (Host), Fazale Rana
Series Code: CR
Program Code: CR001215
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00:08 From Arcadia, California, The Carter Report presents
00:11 "The Living Word" around the world. 00:18 Hello friend, my name is John Carter 00:21 and I am going to give you right now the opportunity 00:24 to be part of something exciting and amazing. 00:29 My guest today is from Reasons to Believe. 00:33 He is the Executive Vice President 00:35 of that remarkable organization. 00:38 His name is Dr. Rana. 00:41 Today we are going to ask and try to answer the question, 00:46 are scientists about to create life in the laboratory. 00:52 And if this happens is there no longer a reason 00:56 for the existence of God? Stay with us. 01:04 Hello friend, I am John Carter. 01:06 I am here today to tell you the most amazing news. 01:10 I want to thank you firstly in Jesus name 01:13 for your magnificent support. 01:15 We are on our way to Port Moresby, 01:19 the capital of Papua New Guinea. 01:22 We are going to see the amazing power of God. 01:25 We are going there to preach the everlasting Gospel. 01:29 I will be preaching 01:30 every night outdoors in the national stadium. 01:34 The locals tell us we will have over 100,000 people a night, 01:40 some say a 150,000 people. 01:43 A few have said, maybe 200,000 01:47 but I want you to know this we go in the name of Christ 01:50 to preach the gospel and to save souls. 01:55 And I am saying today, I can't do this without your help. 01:59 I have got to raise right now $500,000 for this great campaign 02:07 that is going to shake an entire nation for God. 02:12 Please be my partner. 02:14 Write to me, John Carter Post office box 1900, 02:19 Thousand Oaks, CA 91358. 02:22 In Australia, my aussie friends, please write to Terrigal, 02:27 the address is now appearing on the screen. 02:30 Please stand with me in this tremendous outreach 02:35 to the people of Papua New Guinea. 02:38 We used to talk about mission impossible. 02:43 All of a sudden it has become mission possible. 02:48 This is an opportunity to reach 02:51 an entire nation for the Lord Jesus Christ. 02:54 Please write to me today 02:57 and I want to say to you from my heart to yours 03:00 thank you in Jesus name. 03:05 Welcome, my friend. 03:07 We are going to call this program today 03:10 Are Scientists Playing God? 03:14 An amazing concept. 03:17 We are going to talk about it today 03:18 with our special guest Dr Rana from Reasons to Believe, 03:24 a great organization here in Southern California 03:26 that gives people reasons to believe. 03:30 We are just delighted, Dr. Rana, 03:32 to have you with us at the Carter Report today 03:34 and we want to say, thank you so much for joining us. 03:37 Well, thank you Pastor Carter, for having me. 03:38 It's a pleasure to be here with you. 03:40 We look upon you as an old friend. Thank you. 03:44 Along with Dr. Hugh Ross who is a great astronomer. 03:47 Now astronomy of course, 03:49 and as I said he's a great astronomer. 03:52 It talks about the big things, 03:54 the vast things out there in space. 03:57 You talk about the little things. Yeah. 04:01 What is Biochemistry? 04:03 Well, it's simply put. 04:04 It's the study of life's chemistry. 04:07 It's the study of the chemical systems 04:09 that make up living organisms. 04:12 So chemistry is the study of matter, 04:14 how is it structured, how does it interact with itself. 04:18 And so biochemistry interested in what is the matter 04:21 that makes up life and how does it interact 04:23 and then how is that been explained biological process. 04:27 So you are dealing with molecules, 04:29 DNA and proteins and sugars and fats. 04:32 These are part of the molecular constituents that make up life. 04:37 I have been reading through your new book, 04:40 "Creating Life in the Lab" 04:43 and we are going to talk about that today a little bit. 04:45 You know, because it does appear to me 04:48 that many scientists are now on the place 04:50 where they are actually trying to create life in the lab 04:56 and they are playing God. 04:59 You got a PhD in these things. 05:01 Where did you get it and when did you get it? Sure. 05:03 Well, I did my PhD in Chemistry with an emphasis 05:06 in Biochemistry at Ohio University 05:09 in Athens, Ohio, that was 1990. 05:12 And then after that I did a couple of extra bits 05:16 of training in Biochemistry at the University of Virginia, 05:20 University of Georgia where I had post doctoral fellowships. 05:24 And then from there I went into a private industry 05:27 for a number of years. 05:28 And then from there I joined Reasons to Believe 05:30 about 13 years ago now. 05:32 We normally don't think of science bringing people to God. 05:37 People say that science drives people away from God, 05:42 but I understand that science has played a part 05:45 in bringing you to Christ. Yeah. 05:47 Can you tell me about it? Sure thing. 05:49 It played really I think a central role 05:51 in my conversion to Christianity. 05:53 I didn't grow up in a home 05:55 with any kind of Christian influences whatsoever. 05:56 Oh, you didn't? No. 05:59 My father was from India. 06:00 He was a Muslim and came to the United States 06:03 via Canada in the 1950s. 06:06 He met my mom who had a Catholic background 06:10 and when they married they agreed to disagree 06:13 when it came to religion. 06:14 They were wise, weren't they? They were. 06:16 Well, my mom was in fact a non-practicing Catholic 06:19 and my dad was the more religious of my two parents, 06:23 but he never or my mom never really pressed 06:28 their religious believes on us. 06:30 They kind of left it up for-- to my brother and I, 06:32 to figure things out on our own. 06:34 My father was a nuclear physicists, 06:36 my mom was a science and math teacher. 06:37 Now what did he do? What exactly did he do? 06:40 Well, when I was born he was a university professor 06:44 but he prior to that worked in an industry 06:48 as a nuclear physicists in the 1950s so. 06:52 And he was a Muslim at this time. 06:53 He was. Yes. A practicing Muslim. Yes. 06:56 Yes, he was. Yes, he was. 06:57 But he again didn't feel like he was appropriate for him 07:01 to press his beliefs on either me or my brother 07:04 and so we kind of grew up in a home 07:07 where there was you know, good ethical upbringing, 07:09 but not really any kind of religious instruction. 07:12 But my father being a scientist, my mom being a science teacher, 07:16 science was everywhere in our household so to speak 07:19 as we were growing up. 07:21 So, but to answer my question, 07:23 how did you come to know God with science 07:27 because I understand that science had a definite part 07:31 in leading you to a knowledge of the Scriptures and to God. 07:34 Sure thing, well, by the time I went to college 07:38 I pretty much had no real commitment one way 07:41 or the other to whether or not God existed. 07:43 I was an agnostic and in fact as an undergraduate 07:46 I readily embraced the evolutionary paradigm. 07:50 The professors I admired, said life's origin, 07:52 life's history is explicable through evolutionary processes. 07:56 I accepted that teaching, 07:59 but then I went to graduate school 08:00 to get a PhD in Biochemistry. 08:03 The idea of God was the furthest thing 08:04 from my mind at that point. 08:07 And as I began to really study in depth 08:10 and in detail bio-chemical systems 08:12 I became convinced that these are incredible systems 08:18 unlike anything that I really could have ever appreciated 08:21 prior to my in-depth study. 08:23 These are incredibly complex systems, 08:26 they are incredibly elegant, incredibly sophisticated. 08:29 There was a cleverness to how these systems work. 08:32 And to me that became a curiosity, 08:35 how do scientists really explain these things. 08:38 I wasn't looking for evolution did it. 08:40 I wanted to know the detail step by step 08:43 how these systems come into being 08:45 and as I examined the scientific explanations 08:48 or the attempts to explain these systems scientifically, 08:52 I didn't think those explanations were sufficient. 08:55 I didn't think chemistry and physics could generate 08:58 on its own the complexity of life 09:01 and given their elegance and sophistication 09:03 I thought there has to be a mind that's behind all of this. 09:08 And of course once you come to the recognition 09:09 that there's a mind that leads 09:12 to even more important questions. 09:14 Who or what is that that mind? 09:16 Do I relate to that, that creator? 09:18 And that sent me on a journey of about six months 09:22 of beginning to wrestle through these questions 09:24 and through a fairly complex series of events. 09:27 I wound up being challenged to read the Bible to see 09:31 if it was true and as I read through the gospel of Matthew 09:35 and specifically the Sermon on the Mount 09:37 I became convinced that Jesus had to be 09:40 who Christians claim Him to be. 09:42 So I would argue it was 09:44 a supernatural religious experience 09:46 where God is revealed to me through the pages of Scripture. 09:49 But my coming to the recognition there had to be a creator. 09:52 I believe too was God revealing Himself 09:55 to me through the record of nature. 09:57 Now you know about C.S. Lewis, don't you? Yes. 10:00 Jack Lewis as they call him. 10:03 He had a conversion in a somewhat similar way. 10:07 He was at Oxford University, had a head full of brains 10:10 and as he thought things through, 10:13 through the processes of logic he came to the conclusion, 10:20 man cannot be alone 10:21 there must be someone bigger than man. 10:24 And Lewis became of course, 10:26 one of the greatest Christian writers 10:28 and most people, at least intellectuals 10:31 who read the writings of C.S. Lewis. 10:34 So you are a believer in God and a believer in Christ? 10:37 I am, yes. And a believer in Scripture. 10:40 Yes, very much so. 10:42 But the arguments for evolution can be somewhat 10:45 overwhelming for a young person, don't you think? 10:48 They can and part of the challenge too 10:51 is the people who are making those arguments 10:53 are people in authority. Yes. 10:55 And there are people too that I think 10:57 students going through a science program admire. Yes. 11:02 They typically are good people who are people of integrity. 11:05 They just have a particular world view. 11:07 And not all of them are unbelievers. Not necessarily. 11:10 No, because there are plenty of evolutionists 11:13 who are theistic evolutionists 11:15 who believe that God used the evolutionary process 11:18 to create life as we understand it. Yes. 11:21 Now I wouldn't classify myself as a theistic evolutionist. 11:23 No. No. 11:25 I am a creationist, but you are right, there. 11:28 It's a very overwhelming environment for students 11:32 who don't have an adequate background in science. 11:35 And then you have people like Professor Dawkins. 11:39 Now there's no doubt about it he is a brilliant man, 11:43 but he speaks sort of ex-cathedra. 11:47 And what he says that's it 11:49 and if you don't agree with him you are a complete fool. Yes. 11:54 And so the people who follow him are almost like, 11:58 many of them at least are 12:00 like people who follow a religious guru. Yeah. 12:04 So it's a cult, a religious cult 12:09 and they are afraid to think for themselves 12:11 or to consider some of the evidence 12:13 that you are going to give to me today. 12:16 Tell me this one, you are a scientist 12:19 with a PhD in these things, 12:21 in these things I am a layman person, I am a pastor. 12:25 I have often wondered why is it that the two scientists 12:28 can look at the same evidence 12:30 and reach completely different conclusions? 12:33 You know that's a great question 12:36 and it's a question I have given a lot of thought too 12:38 and I think at the end of the day 12:40 it boils down to not the evidence itself, 12:43 but really philosophical influences 12:47 and maybe even a spiritual condition if you will. Yes. 12:51 I mean, Richard Dawkins for example, 12:53 in his introduction to the book "The Blind Watchmaker" says, 12:57 Biology is the study of complicated things 13:00 that give the appearance 13:01 of having been designed for a purpose. Yes. 13:03 And you know, and so here Dawkins is admitting 13:06 that when you look at biochemical systems 13:08 the first reaction is that they are designed. Yes. 13:12 But yet he argues that evolution did it 13:15 as opposed to taking it to the logical conclusion 13:18 that maybe indeed there was a mind behind it at all. 13:20 So I think it's a philosophical commitment 13:23 to a world view or unwillingness to be open to maybe 13:28 just maybe that there is a God 13:30 who is responsible for everything. 13:34 I have discovered after 50 years 13:37 of preaching the truths of the Bible and being a pastor 13:43 everybody has got some prejudice. 13:46 All religious people too, this thing that's called bias. 13:51 And often we think because of our culture and our parents 13:56 and our upbringing and our fears and everything else. 14:02 I have a feeling that many, many people 14:05 choose to believe that there's no God 14:08 not because it's necessarily, intellectually honest 14:12 but because it's more convenient. 14:16 It suits their lifestyle. 14:18 Now this may not be true with everybody, 14:20 but I think it's true with some, wouldn't you say? 14:22 Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said to that statement 14:26 and you know again we are talking about 14:27 students going through university 14:29 where it's just not considered to be 14:32 intellectually sophisticated to believe in God. 14:35 And so students want to be 14:37 viewed as being intellectually sophisticated. 14:39 They wanted to be viewed as being 14:41 part of the intelligentsia 14:43 and so they reject belief in God for peer pressure reasons. 14:47 That good man, Dr. Dawkins attacks 14:51 Christianity and religion in general very strongly. 14:53 He says, "Look, what religious people have done. 14:56 Look at the wars over religion. 14:59 Look at the terrible crimes in the name of God." 15:02 Has he ever heard of communism? 15:05 Has he ever been to Russia? 15:08 In fact, I have been there 42 times, 15:10 just come back from Russia and Ukraine. 15:13 I have been there 42 times. 15:15 I know the story of communism 15:18 during that time of 70 years 15:20 when the Marxist ruled Russia and Ukraine. 15:25 Historians tell us now at least fifty million people 15:29 were murdered by the atheists. 15:32 So the atheists were watching the telecast 15:36 ought to think about this one 15:38 because the atheists who put to death in their own lifetime 15:42 basically millions and millions and millions of people. 15:46 So it's not just the religious people 15:48 but of course, I would beg to disagree with Dr. Dawkins 15:52 when he says he's not religious. 15:55 He's the high priest of a great religion. 15:57 He maybe a good man, 15:58 but he's a high priest of a great religion 16:00 and he thinks like a religious person does. He sure does. 16:04 Who doesn't want to consider all of the evidence? 16:07 Now I have been reading through 16:11 this great book "Creating Life in the Lab." 16:14 This is an amazing book 16:16 and I recommend it to you my friend. 16:18 Just read this book. 16:19 This has got some amazing concepts. 16:22 It's called "CreatingLife in the Lab." 16:26 Don't read it after you had a heavy lunch 16:31 because it's got some profound thoughts in it. 16:35 Doctor, is the creation of synthetic life feasible? 16:43 Is it possible, is it likely? Yes. 16:47 We are very close to be able to create 16:49 artificial synthetic life forms in the laboratory. 16:53 Amazing. Yeah. 16:54 I mean, 10 years ago if you had asked me is this possible, 16:56 I would have said there's absolutely no way, 16:58 but the advances that have happened 17:00 in terms of just understanding how biochemical systems work, 17:04 in terms of being able to manipulate those systems 17:07 and then in advances in genetic engineering 17:10 have led us to the point where we do have the capabilities of 17:14 creating artificial life forms in the laboratory. 17:17 Now we are talking about cell, single cells like bacteria. 17:21 But still it's a life form. It's a life form, exactly. 17:24 And now friend, are you listening to this 17:25 because you are going to hear this 17:28 on this program for the first time. 17:30 I just want you to listen to this 17:31 because if I have been doing 17:34 this television program 10 years ago, 17:36 I would have said, this will never happen. 17:39 And I would have agreed with you. 17:41 Well, but you would have had a good reason to believe. 17:44 I just would have you know, 17:45 I would be going by my gut feeling. 17:47 So scientists are on the brink of creating synthetic life, 17:54 I heard you say that. 17:57 Tell us about the work of James Watson, Francis Crick 18:00 and more recently Craig Venter and genetic engineering. 18:06 Now friend, I want you to hear this 18:08 particularly university students 18:10 tune in right now. Listen to this. 18:13 Well, you know in 1953 Francis Crick and Jim Watson 18:20 published a paper in Nature, that is a famous paper now 18:24 where they present the structure of the DNA molecule. 18:28 And that structure, this double helix 18:30 that everybody is familiar with-- 18:31 50 years ago. Yeah. 18:33 They are about 1953 was the year. 18:35 Well, its more than 50 years. 18:36 Yeah, 60. Almost 60. 18:38 I mean, where have the years gone? 18:40 Yeah. Yeah. 18:41 But, and that structure provided critical insight 18:45 in terms of how DNA was able to replicate itself, 18:49 how the cell could just store genetic information 18:52 and led to what's call the molecular biology revolution 18:55 where through that understanding we developed 18:59 again the capability to manipulate and understand 19:02 how life works at its basic level. 19:05 This is astounding. 19:06 And then this lead to genetic engineering 19:09 which was first successful in the 1970s 19:13 where scientist could manipulate small pieces of that molecule 19:16 and in doing so introduce for example the gene 19:20 that encodes for the protein insulin into bacteria, 19:23 so that you now have 19:24 bacteria making the human insulin protein. 19:28 And then that goes fast forward to about two years ago now 19:34 when Craig Venter and his group announced 19:37 the creation of synthetic version of a bacterium 19:40 where they literally went in to a lab 19:42 with four bottles of a chemicals 19:44 and made a massive piece of DNA 19:47 that was about a million genetic letters in size. 19:51 They made this thing. In the lab. 19:54 But they made it out of pre-existing matter of course. 19:56 Oh, of course. Yes. 19:57 So they start with the same building blocks 19:59 that the cell uses to make DNA, 20:01 but it was a total laboratory creation of DNA off synthetic-- 20:07 This is astounding. 20:09 Which you could think of its being 20:10 like the software of the cell 20:12 and they took that software that they made 20:15 and they transplanted it into another bacterium 20:18 and that DNA and some clever biochemical tricks 20:22 allow them to dissolve that host cells DNA 20:26 and the synthetic DNA took over the operation of the cell. 20:29 They rebooted the cell and, voila, 20:32 in a few generations of cell division they had 20:35 a completely different species of bacteria that was synthetic. 20:39 Now here's the question. Was that DNA alive? 20:42 No, the DNA is not alive. 20:44 So it's not alive. It's not alive. 20:45 So they didn't create life then. 20:47 No, but they took the molecules 20:49 and they manipulated them all together in such a way 20:52 that you have now an entity that functions as a living organism. 20:58 But that's when its put into 21:00 another living organism, isn't it? 21:01 Yes. Exactly. 21:02 But the thing is life is kind of a tricky concept to define. Yes. 21:07 You know and we are talking about physical life now 21:09 not about you know the spiritual makeup of the human being, 21:13 but in the sense life really consists of 21:16 a very complex assemblage of molecules 21:20 that when they are there 21:21 in the right types in the right numbers 21:23 begin to function like a life form. 21:26 So there's not like a vital force 21:30 that you need for something to be alive. 21:32 It's just the right molecules present in the right amounts 21:36 and that gives you a living entity. 21:38 Now this stuff didn't put itself together, did it? No. 21:41 It's in a laboratory. It sure didn't. 21:43 I mean, when you look at what Craig Venter's team did, 21:46 they worked on this project for 15 years 21:50 and looking at research teams that had 21:53 anywhere from 20 to 50 people 21:55 at various times throughout that process. 21:58 They spent about $40 million. 22:01 They are using incredibly 22:02 sophisticated laboratory apparatus. 22:05 They are using incredibly elaborate 22:07 strategies and protocols, 22:09 but people who are carrying out these protocols 22:12 were some of the world's best scientists. 22:14 In fact, there's a Nobel laureate 22:15 who's part of their team, Hamilton Smith. 22:18 And so-- I have heard of this man. 22:19 Yes. Yes. 22:21 Incredible, incredible team of the best minds in the world 22:25 working over a vast periods of time 22:27 and spending huge amounts of money 22:29 using incredibly sophisticated systems, 22:32 using knowledge accumulated for centuries to do what they did. 22:37 This is a tremendous argument 22:40 against blind forces of nature coming together by themselves. 22:44 Oh, it sure is. 22:45 I mean, this is really evidence 22:47 that it takes intelligent agents to make life possible. 22:51 It takes an intelligent designer. Exactly. 22:54 It takes an intelligent-- did you hear that friend, 22:56 it takes an intelligent designer to create life. 23:01 And not to minimize the accomplishments 23:04 of Craig Venter. No, not at all. 23:05 But what he essentially did is just made a synthetic version 23:09 of a life form that already exists. 23:10 Which is amazing in itself. Yes. 23:13 Now this is of course a stepping stone 23:15 to actually going the next step 23:17 and now creating an organism 23:18 that would be unlike any think in nature 23:21 but nerveless-- Astounding. 23:23 Its, again the same point would be true 23:27 when they make the synthetic version of-- 23:29 sorry, a novel synthetic organism 23:31 and that would be intelligent agents are required 23:34 to bring life into existence. 23:36 We are coming into a new brave new world, 23:39 a strange new world, a dangerous new world. 23:42 Don't you think? We sure are. 23:44 And I think this is why it's very important 23:46 for Christians to understand what the technology is. 23:50 Yes, absolutely. 23:52 And to be able to offer an intelligent perspective 23:55 in form of our biblical world view 23:58 of what is the right way to handle this technology. 24:01 And not to make statements 24:04 that are going to be proven in six months 24:06 to be completely erroneous. 24:07 Right. Yeah. 24:09 You know, if we see this as being evidence for God 24:13 and the necessity of God bringing life into existence 24:16 we can become excited about the prospects. 24:19 You got me excited here today. 24:21 But when you begin to realize that 24:23 this ability could actually represent 24:26 very important technology 24:28 that could have huge implications 24:30 in terms of biomedicine. Yes. 24:32 You know, making drugs available 24:34 that currently we don't have access to 24:36 that could improve the quality of people's lives. 24:39 Some people this could be the key to producing green fuels 24:44 you know without causing potential harm to environment. 24:47 Actually, using bacteria to create alcohol. 24:51 Exactly. Yeah. 24:53 That could be used as a fuel source 24:54 or even generating hydrogen gas with bacteria 24:58 that can be used to power-- Now when we think of-- 25:01 Now, ladies and gentleman, 25:03 just listen to this because this is amazing material. 25:06 I want you to be part of this conversation. 25:09 We are talking about "Creating life in the Lab". 25:13 We are talking about scientists who seem to be playing God. 25:17 But if they are playing God, 25:19 we must pre-suppose there is a God. 25:21 Yes, exactly. This is important. 25:25 The fact that if they are playing God, 25:27 then it's a presupposition that there is a God 25:30 because they couldn't be doing this if there were no God. 25:34 Tell me this, how amazingly complex is life? 25:42 Well, one way to think about the complexity of life 25:45 is how many genes do you need for a life form to exist 25:50 in its simplest form independently in the environment 25:53 so that it can live all on its own? Yes. 25:56 And one way again to think about this 25:59 is the number of genes that requires 26:01 and a gene is a region of the DNA molecule 26:04 that contains the information to make 26:06 another type of molecule called the protein. 26:07 How complex is a gene? 26:09 A gene would typically be about a thousand genetic letters. 26:14 And so that would be about it-- 26:17 And so a typical genome which would be all the genes combined 26:22 for the simplest organism that could exist all on its own 26:25 will be about, oh, I am guessing 26:27 about 1.5 million genetic letters. 26:30 Our genome consists about 3.2 billion genetic letters. 26:34 But a simplest bacteria that can exist independently 26:37 in its environment is about 1.5 million genetic letters 26:41 which translates to about 1500 genes 26:45 and each gene codes for a protein 26:47 and a protein is a molecule that in itself is a very complex 26:53 that plays a particular role inside the cell 26:57 and so we need based on the best understanding 27:00 about 1500 different types of proteins working collaboratively 27:05 to carry out all the operations needed for a cell-- 27:08 So the great Dr. Venter with his great team 27:13 and we applaud what they are doing. 27:16 This is science at its best. 27:18 They are putting together all the atoms and the molecules, 27:22 is this what they are doing from the ground up? Yes. 27:24 Well, they are kind of taking a shortcut in that 27:27 they are basically assembling the DNA 27:30 which again is the set of instructions. Yes. 27:33 And then they are using that DNA 27:34 to take over the operation of another cell 27:37 where that cell has already done the hard work 27:39 of assembling all the molecules together for them. 27:42 Now there are other researchers 27:44 for example, Jack Shaw Stack who's at Harvard University 27:48 who are taking a different approach than Dr. Venter 27:50 going in a lab and then starting with individual molecules 27:53 and they are trying to assemble them into life forms 27:56 that work is much further away 27:59 in terms of being successful than Venter's approach. 28:03 So Venter's kind of taking advantage of 28:06 what "nature or God" has already done 28:10 to kind of jumpstart the process. 28:12 And then he gets a copyright on what he has done. 28:14 That's exactly-- Is that right? 28:16 Oh, yes. 28:17 I am sure he's going to create headaches 28:19 for people that are involved in patent law. 28:21 Yeah. I am sure. 28:22 Now we have talked about a gene, 28:23 we have talked about the DNA. 28:26 Perhaps, we shouldn't talk about RNA, 28:29 but tell me what about a cell itself? 28:34 A simple cell, how complex is a simple cell? 28:38 It's almost in the sense beyond imagination 28:42 of how complex it is. 28:44 Try to get me to imagine it. 28:46 Probably, the best example would be 28:48 a city like Los Angeles or Sydney 28:51 you know, where you have got-- 28:53 Why would you say Sydney? 28:55 Because you are from Australia and I just visited there. 28:57 And it's a beautiful city. 28:59 Oh, thank you. It's on my mind. 29:00 All right, let's talk about Sydney. 29:02 But you know when you think about the operation of a city 29:05 you have all kinds of different 29:07 activities taking place in the city. 29:10 And we are talking about just one cell. 29:12 Yes, exactly. 29:13 And so, and you have got 29:15 you know, there are aspects of the city 29:18 that are involved in producing the materials 29:21 that the city is going to need to operate their-- 29:22 Yeah, power 29:24 There's power been generated. 29:26 Getting rid of the garbage. That's right. 29:27 There's can't do its in terms of moving material 29:30 and people around you know. 29:32 And there is all these different activities 29:33 that are intergrated together. 29:35 How small is the cell? 29:36 Well, a cell, 29:38 a bacterium would be about a micron in length 29:44 and about a micron in width. 29:46 So that's about one millionth of a meter. 29:48 Well, it's going to take professor Venter 29:51 a while to make a cell starting from scratch. 29:55 Oh, yes, yeah. 29:56 The prospects of doing that 29:58 are much further away by all means. 30:01 Now in your book I have read about 30:05 and I have read about this before, 30:07 "Stanley Miller's Experiments" 30:10 when he tried to recreate life on the planet. 30:14 You know with electricity going through 30:16 different types of chemicals. That was big news. 30:22 But what about today, how far has it gone since then? 30:25 You don't hear about this anymore. 30:27 Yeah, well, you know people will say today 30:30 that the experiment that Stanley Miller did 30:34 which maybe one of the most famous experiments 30:36 in the history of science is of historic interest, 30:40 but it isn't really relevant 30:42 to try to explain how life came from non-life. 30:46 Because we know so much more about life 30:48 and it's not as simple as he even thought it was. 30:52 That's part of it and part of it too is 30:55 Stanley Miller at that time was trying to mimic 30:57 the early earth's conditions based on what they knew 31:00 at that time which was in the 1950s. 31:03 And so he filled up his glass apparatus 31:05 with ammonia and methane and hydrogen. 31:08 He was very careful to make sure no oxygen was present. 31:11 He had boiling water that simulated the earth's oceans 31:14 and was able to make amino acids 31:16 which were the building blocks for proteins. 31:19 Well, we now know that 31:21 the conditions of the early earth were probably 31:23 radically different from what Miller thought. 31:25 So science is moving on. Exactly. 31:28 And sometimes scientists are brave enough-- 31:31 many times they are brave enough to say, 31:33 "Well, we were wrong, we better move on." 31:37 And we are going to move on right now 31:39 because we going to have a message, ladies and gentlemen. 31:43 I am talking with Dr. Rana. 31:46 We are having a great time here at the Carter Report today. 31:49 And after this important message 31:51 I want you to come back 31:53 because we are going to talk about 31:54 the concept of intelligent design. 31:59 Many courts in the United States of America 32:01 have sort of thrown it out. 32:03 They say it's unscientific. Join us after this break. 32:10 The Carter Report is a self supporting ministry 32:13 with a global mission. 32:15 We believe that the most important thing 32:17 that we can do in this tremendous hour 32:19 is to tell people about the Lord Jesus Christ 32:23 because Jesus said, "I am the way, 32:26 the truth and the life." 32:27 We do not believe that this is business as usual. 32:31 We believe that we are living in the closing hours 32:35 in the history of this world. 32:36 Bless your heart, friend. 32:38 Look at the signs that are been fulfilled almost everyday. 32:42 The signs of the times are shouting at us. 32:45 And they are saying Jesus is coming soon. 32:48 I want you to be my partner in global mission. 32:52 I want you to be my partner 32:54 in helping to tell the world about the coming of Jesus. 32:57 I want you to be my partner in the preaching 33:01 of the distinctive truths of the 3Angels messages. 33:05 Please check us out 33:07 at the new Carter Report website, carterreport.org. 33:12 We have a special section whereby you can ask questions 33:17 and I will give you the answers 33:19 from the living Word of the living God. 33:23 That is the carterreport.org. 33:27 My friend, we want you to join us 33:30 in the mission to preach the gospel 33:33 in China, in India, in Australia, 33:37 in Africa, in the United States of America 33:40 wherever people are lost 33:42 and wherever people need to hear 33:44 the good news that Jesus saves. 33:48 Please check us out 33:50 the new carter report website, carterreport.org. 33:55 I want to hear from you today. 34:12 Dr. Rana, we are glad to have you with us here today 34:15 and we are very glad to have you here with us today. 34:18 We are talking about "Creating Life in the Lab." 34:22 Is God still necessary? 34:25 We are going to call this program Playing God 34:29 because that's what scientists are doing today, 34:31 but you need to get the evidence 34:34 because scientists seem to be moving on the road 34:37 to synthesizing life in the laboratory. 34:40 Some would tell us that this proves 34:42 that God is no longer necessary 34:45 and we can do it now in the laboratory. 34:47 I think what some people are going to say 34:49 if life is generated in the laboratory, 34:51 they are going to say, "Well, that proves there is no God." 34:54 What would you say, doctor? 34:56 Well, that's the great irony 34:57 because the very scientist who are making proclamations 35:01 are also the scientists who are demonstrating 35:04 I believe that apart from the work 35:07 of an intelligent agent life can't come from non-life 35:10 and so to me 35:11 this is the most powerful evidence for intelligent-- 35:13 Incredible. Incredible. Yes. 35:15 Because it's an empirical demonstration 35:19 in the laboratory time and time again 35:21 that the critical component to bringing 35:23 life from non-life is the work of a mind. 35:26 And you have got some of the best minds in the world. 35:29 Oh, yes. 35:30 So I want the university students 35:32 who are watching the telecast today 35:35 and your faith is being shaken 35:36 and you say, "Well, you know, we don't need God." 35:38 You better listen to this 35:40 because what's happening today in the lab is an evidence 35:43 that we need a great intelligent master designer. 35:49 Don't you think? Yes, that's exactly-- 35:51 This is what now the conclusion you have come to 35:53 and I believe you are right. 35:56 First, intelligent design is controversial. 36:01 It doesn't have a good connotations 36:04 we would like it to have, 36:06 it's been I believe declared by some of the courts unscientific. 36:13 Do you believe in intelligent design 36:18 and what about the book "Darwin's Black Box" 36:22 that I read 10 times. 36:23 I had to do that, so I could understand it? 36:26 But I like your book, but this a great book. 36:30 And the "Amazing Propeller," 36:32 you know what I am talking about? 36:33 Yes, exactly. 36:34 This little thing that goes through the water 36:36 and I got a speed boat 36:38 and you know I have got this great engine in it, 36:42 but nature's got these things too. 36:44 So tell me from your heart 36:48 and as a scientist your views on intelligent design. 36:52 Well, I thoroughly accept the notion 36:54 of intelligent design. So you do. 36:56 You thoroughly accept that notion. Yes. 36:59 And so does Hugh Ross. Yes. 37:00 And I think that's what the evidence shows. 37:02 The evidence shows that when you look at 37:05 whether it's the largest objects in the universe 37:07 or the smallest objects in the universe 37:09 that we have been talking about, 37:11 you see evidence that these things 37:12 have been put together by a mind. 37:15 In fact, one of the things I find 37:17 absolutely astounding as a biochemist is that 37:21 the way in which biochemical systems are structured, 37:24 the way they operate is identical to the designs 37:28 that we would make as human beings. 37:30 So systems and objects that we would make 37:32 have certain signatures that indicate a mind 37:36 was responsible for this system not nature 37:39 and we see those same features inside the cell. 37:42 But can not nature itself through 37:47 the laws of nature produce things. 37:54 You have got natural selection, we know that works. Yes. 37:59 You, of course, 38:00 you are an expert on the theory of the God of the gaps. 38:03 If you don't understand something you say, 38:05 "Well, it's supernatural." 38:07 We don't believe that. 38:09 We don't believe that everything we don't understand 38:11 has got to be supernatural, do we? 38:14 Well, to me I would argue that it's not God of the gaps 38:16 because we clearly don't want to make that argument that 38:19 if you can't explain it today we just insert God-- 38:22 Yeah, and that's dangerous. 38:24 And it makes believers to say these things rather Ludachrists. 38:29 That's right. Yeah. 38:30 But, but again when you couple the idea 38:34 that biochemical systems again look like 38:37 they are the work of a human mind, 38:39 they have the identical features to what we would produce 38:43 and then the work in the lab 38:45 in terms of trying to create life in a lab, 38:47 you have really two different lines of evidence 38:50 that are emerging together that are consistent 38:52 with the idea that life comes from a creator 38:55 that supports that idea I believe very powerfully, 38:58 but it's astounding to me we've been talking about DNA 39:03 but the way that DNA functions inside the cell 39:06 is literally like a computer system. 39:08 In fact, there is this British mathematician 39:12 who died a premature death name Alan Turing. 39:15 Yeah, I know, I know of it. You got a picture of him. 39:18 You sent me a picture. I did. 39:19 He's become to some degree my new hero 39:22 because he's the father of computer science 39:25 and he developed these things called Turing machines 39:28 where he said, a Turing machine is a machine 39:33 that takes a data input, transforms it 39:36 and then generates an output 39:39 and if you string these Turing machine together 39:41 you can take very simple operations 39:43 and make them incredibility complex. 39:45 Well, it turns out that the cells machinery 39:48 that manipulates DNA is an ensemble of Turing machines 39:53 and what's interesting is that 39:54 the Turing machines that computer scientist work with 39:58 are mental constructs they are not physical machines, 40:01 but inside the cell you have these physical Turing machines 40:05 that are working to carry out very complex operations 40:09 so much so that this computer scientist said 40:12 the university of Southern California, 40:14 Leonard Adleman recognized this 40:16 and founded a whole new area of nano-technology 40:19 called DNA computing where he's taking those principles 40:22 and he's building computers out of DNA. 40:26 He's building computers out of DNA. 40:28 Exactly, because the cell is functioning like a computer. 40:32 Do you hear this, building computers out of DNA? 40:33 Because the cell is functioning like a computer 40:37 which in its functioning in the same way 40:39 that Alan Turing in his mind conceived of it. 40:43 So to me that's extremely provocative in terms of 40:47 again the idea that life comes from the work of the mind. 40:51 And-- It's rather compelling. 40:54 Is it not true to say that a scientist who was an atheist 40:59 and who was dealing with all of these things 41:01 is a man of tremendous faith? 41:04 You have got to have a lot of faith 41:05 to believe there's no God. 41:06 Yeah, I think there's a pre-commitment to a world view. 41:09 There's a tremendous step of faith 41:14 to say after all of this evidence 41:17 and all these Turing machines or there's no Turing. 41:22 Now there are different forms of evolution. 41:28 There's micro evolution, we believe-- 41:31 you believe in micro evolution. 41:33 Yeah, I sure do. 41:34 I mean, every scientist has got to believe in that. 41:36 There was a time 41:38 when Christians didn't believe in micro evolution. 41:40 We believe that-- well, tell me. 41:44 You tell me what we believe. 41:46 What is micro evolution? 41:47 Like a peppered moth that everybody is familiar with 41:50 whose wings change from light to dark and dark to light 41:52 based on industrial pollutant 41:54 in the environment that's micro revolution. 41:56 It's a fact. Yeah. 41:57 Or the Galapagos finches, 41:59 you know where one finch gives rise to 42:01 a number of closely related finches. Yes. 42:03 And viruses becoming resistant to antibiotics. 42:07 Yeah. So this well established. 42:09 Its not-- I don't this it contradicts 42:12 the notion of a creator been responsible for that. 42:14 Not at all. Not at all. 42:15 But let's talk about macro evolution 42:18 and the time restrains. 42:21 Now for macro evolution to operate 42:25 you need massive periods of time. Yes. 42:29 And more than this if we press Richard Dawkins 42:33 and I don't doubt that he's an honest man. 42:36 We shouldn't say a person is not honest 42:38 because they don't think the same as we do. 42:41 But Richard Dawkins as an honest man 42:44 must be forced to concede 42:46 that he doesn't know how life started. 42:49 In fact, no scientist knows. No. 42:50 Knows how life started. No. 42:52 This in a sense-- From the lab nobody knows. 42:55 You know, there's been work 42:57 over the last 60-65 years on this question 43:00 and there's not been 43:01 any genuine progress that's been made. 43:03 A lot of work has been done, 43:04 a lot of ideas have been floated 43:06 but there's been no genuine progress 43:09 in my mind explaining the origin of life. 43:12 Well, talk to me now, 43:13 tell me the weaknesses you have seen in the theory of evolution, 43:19 macro evolution because of the time constraints 43:23 that we know exists for life to evolve. 43:26 Well, for example 43:28 as soon as the earth is capable of supporting life 43:31 we see that life appears in a geological instant. 43:35 And it just again it appears suddenly 43:38 and the very first life forms that appear on earth 43:41 are simple single cell bacteria like we have been talking about, 43:46 but even though again 43:48 they appear superficially to be simple. 43:50 They are incredibly complex organisms 43:53 and so this sudden appearance of intrinsically complex life. 43:57 And every scientist has got to concede that this is so. 44:02 Yes, this is well established. 44:03 So what we are talking here now, 44:05 we are going to use the arguments 44:10 that are often used against us. 44:14 Because every scientist will agree that life appears 44:19 apparently suddenly on the planet 44:23 over very short period of time and its complex life 44:30 and it doesn't seem impossible, is this true? 44:32 Doesn't seem impossible that life going through 44:35 the process of evolution could reach such a stage? 44:39 Yes, and that rapidly. No. 44:42 And so this is to me one of the big problems 44:45 with trying to explain the origin of life. 44:48 And don't scientists recognize this in the theory of, 44:51 what is it Panspermia or Tanspermia, what is it called? 44:54 Yeah, Panspermia. Yeah, Panspermia. 44:56 Tell us about why do they have this idea of Panspermia? 44:58 Well, the idea is that 44:59 if there's not time for life to evolve on earth 45:02 if it appears suddenly then they argue, 45:04 well, maybe life didn't appear on earth. 45:06 It appeared somewhere else in our solar system. 45:09 Or even beyond our solar system and was transported to earth 45:13 and so when life appears on earth 45:16 for the first time it's not its origin on earth, 45:18 but its delivery to earth. Yeah. 45:21 But while this idea of panspermia 45:24 has been bantered around, 45:26 there not a whole lot of scientists 45:28 that think it has a lot of credibility, 45:30 because you are just simply postponing 45:32 the problems someplace else. 45:34 Now you're not really solving the problem. 45:36 No, it's true. 45:38 The transport mechanisms just simply don't work. 45:41 But is not an admission that the theory of the evolution 45:46 as it is taught has filed at least on this planet? 45:49 Yes, that is one way you can think of that, 45:52 about that and I think it's legitimate-- 45:53 And so there's not enough time on this planet, 45:56 even with billions of years there's not enough time 45:59 therefore it happened somewhere else. 46:02 Yes, exactly. 46:03 And this motivates NASA somewhat. 46:05 Is that true? It does. 46:07 I mean, the big thrust of NASA 46:09 at least with regard to its sciences to look for life 46:12 in our solar system and beyond. Yeah. 46:15 And, you know, they're convinced 46:16 that there has to be life everywhere. 46:18 But yet, I've not seen anything 46:21 coming from NASA that is compelling-- 46:23 No. Towards that end. 46:24 There's almost a fanatical religious zeal 46:29 to find an evidence of life on other planets, 46:32 so that they can say, 46:33 well, may I use the word they wouldn't use, Hallelujah. 46:38 It couldn't start here 46:40 because it wasn't enough time, but it started there 46:43 and therefore we have saved the theory of Darwinism 46:47 and the theory of evolution. 46:49 Now, tell us about-- 46:53 are you folks getting this, not enough time 46:56 according to the arguments of the evolutionists, 46:59 the life to happen on the earth and if there was, 47:02 how did it happen and nobody knows? 47:05 Haven't got a clue, I'll tell you. 47:07 Tell us about the Origin of Life program 47:13 because these are being going-- 47:14 haven't they for about 50 years or something? 47:16 Yes. Have you been along? 47:17 Yes, yes, I mean, you know, this has been a program 47:23 that's been a vigorous program for the last 50, 65 years now. 47:28 And I've been to a number of meetings, 47:31 I've actually even written 47:33 articles for Origin of Life journals 47:35 where I've been critical of specific aspects of the model. 47:39 And they publish this? Yes, they have. 47:41 That's good, isn't it? That is, they are-- 47:44 It's an interesting group of people 47:46 because everybody has their own ideas 47:48 which in and of themselves 47:50 are not necessarily the most robust ideas 47:53 and they are very quick to criticize one another's ideas. 47:55 Which is good. Which is good. 47:57 Yeah, that's honesty. 47:58 Yes, the matter of fact is that everybody realizes 48:02 that no matter what model they float 48:05 to try to explain chemical evolution, 48:08 there is always deficiencies 48:09 and so again there's not 48:11 a whole lot of progress being made. 48:13 Is it true and this analogy has been used? 48:17 I think the author of Darwin's "Black Box" use it 48:22 he said, "You make a discovery, you open a door. 48:26 Ah, this it great? We've got this." 48:29 So you open the door, 48:30 there's a corridor there that's thousand miles long. 48:34 And you walk down this corridor 48:36 and there's doors on either side of you. 48:38 And so you say, well, okay, you get down this long corridor, 48:42 then you open the last door and there's another corridor. 48:46 So really am I getting any closer 48:50 to solving the mystery of life without God? 48:54 No, I don't think so. 48:55 I think in fact the more that this problem is being researched 49:01 I think the more compelling the case is 49:05 for intelligent design, you know, 49:08 what's being discovered 49:10 particularly in the last 10 years or so, 49:12 I think is really raising questions as to whether or not 49:16 again life could come from non-life through chemical means 49:20 and raising those questions in a very serious way 49:23 and it's really a philosophical commitment 49:26 to a particular world view that I think fuels 49:30 the research today more so than anything else. 49:33 When I've been reading through your book, 49:35 I was delighted to discover that there are some pictures also. 49:41 Because here we've got pictures of a membrane 49:44 and we've got cells and when you look at this, 49:52 one's mind is overwhelmed 49:57 by the intricacy and the complexity 50:05 and so there's not enough time 50:07 I know for these things to happen, 50:08 there's not enough time in the universe 50:11 for these things to happen. 50:13 And to me it is a compelling evidence 50:17 that there must be an intelligent designer 50:20 who has all power and all might 50:25 and the wonderful thing is He has given us a book 50:28 and the book tells us He is interested in us 50:31 and He loves us and we are not alone in the universe. 50:35 Doctor, we admire your work, 50:38 tell me this, what would you say 50:41 to a young person attending university 50:43 and being bombarded by atheistic evolution, 50:47 possibly, by good professors who are nice guys, 50:50 can one believe in the creator 50:53 and still be intellectually respectable? 50:57 I think so. Duncan says no. 50:59 I think you can because I think 51:01 when you look at the way nature is put together, 51:04 whether it's when you study astronomy 51:06 or you study biochemistry-- Yes. 51:08 Everywhere you look, you see overwhelming evidence 51:12 for again God's fingerprints for the work of a mind 51:17 and you just see an incredible beauty 51:20 to the created order that is awe-inspiring 51:24 that I think is consistent with statements in Scripture 51:29 such as the heavens declare the glory of God 51:31 or look at the wondrous works that God has done. 51:35 So here is evidence for an intelligent mind to believe 51:39 and being a Christian is not to be equated 51:42 with being simple or foolish 51:49 or some would say in their sarcasm, stupid. 51:54 "You have got to be stupid to believe this." 51:57 Because as the evidence comes in 51:58 we see the outworking of a mighty mind. 52:02 Can you comment on the statement, 52:05 "It is not a case of nature against Scripture, 52:09 but rather a case of science against theology? 52:14 Have Christians and the church tour era, 52:19 have scientist held invalid and false ideas." 52:23 it's a long question, it's a series of questions, 52:26 and what is bigotry? 52:28 Yeah, well, you know, to me 52:30 I believe that God has revealed Himself to us. Yes. 52:34 And the Bible represents that revelation to us 52:37 and as we read through the Bible 52:38 we discover that it also teaches us 52:41 that God has revealed Himself to us through His creation. Yes. 52:44 And so both the creation and the words of scripture 52:48 have to be in agreement with each other. Yes, indeed. 52:50 And that is our commitment but we also recognize 52:54 that we are fallible human beings. Yes. 52:56 Who are reading God's Word and drawing interpretations 52:59 that may or may not be correct. Yes. 53:01 We are studying nature as scientists 53:04 and the conclusions we draw may or may not be correct 53:07 and so, well, we believe there's always going to be harmony 53:11 between God's Word and God's revelation 53:14 through nature. Two books. 53:16 We also recognize that there can be points of disagreement 53:21 when people interpret nature through the process of science 53:24 or interpret scripture through biblical studies 53:27 and through theology 53:29 and so when there's conflict that arises, 53:31 we have to have the humility on both sides. Yeah. 53:34 As scientists and Christians to say, 53:36 maybe our interpretations are wrong. Yeah. 53:38 And let's revisit and work harder. 53:40 We are not infallible. Let's keep open minds. 53:43 The last question is the most important one. 53:46 What do you think of Christ? 53:48 Well, I think of Christ as being my Lord and my Savior 53:53 that He is also the creator who brought the universe 53:57 into existence and so I love Jesus Christ and-- 54:01 And do you have everlasting life? 54:03 I believe I do in Jesus' life, 54:07 death, and resurrection. Yes. 54:09 And so I put my trust in His work on the cross 54:12 and love Jesus and seek to serve Him. 54:16 And if we trust Him, 54:17 it doesn't depend upon us so much, 54:21 doesn't depend upon our good works and our righteousness, 54:25 it depends upon His good works and His righteousness. 54:29 You know, it's amazing that the God 54:30 who made everything is a God who is also interested in us 54:35 and He has loved us so much that He was willing 54:38 to go out of His way to redeem us from our falling. 54:43 Only an infinite God could have devised the plan of salvation. 54:48 And as you said before reading through the Bible, 54:52 the New Testament, nobody could have thought up 54:55 to the person of Christ, Christ Himself, 54:59 our Lord and our Savior whom we recommend to you today 55:03 is the greatest reason why you can believe in God. 55:09 Doctor Rana, it has been 55:11 a great pleasure to have you with us today. 55:14 We look upon you as a colleague in Christ, 55:17 as a distinguished scientist. 55:20 We appreciate our friend, Hugh Ross and the team 55:24 and that you're endeavoring to give people 55:26 reasons to believe in God. Thank you. 55:29 And so we have enjoyed having you here today. 55:32 Thank you for having me. It's really good. 55:35 I want to thank you today for joining us 55:38 for this intellectually, stimulating conversation, 55:42 but more than that we have been 55:45 thinking God's thoughts after Him 55:47 as we have seen scientists in the laboratory playing God. 55:52 We have discovered that there is a God who loves you. 55:55 Please write to me today, 55:56 John Carter, Post Office box 1900, 55:59 Thousand Oaks, California, 91358. 56:02 In Australia, write to the address at Terrigal. 56:05 Until next time God bless you. 56:11 We will live in the light of the risen Lamb 56:19 See over there, there's a mansion prepared just for me 56:28 Where I can live with my Savior eternally 56:38 There will be no more night no more pain 56:49 I said no more tears never crying no crying 56:58 And praises to the great I am 57:06 We will live in the light of the risen Lamb 57:21 We will live in the light of the risen Lamb |
Revised 2014-12-17