Engage

When Love Is Not Enough

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: David Asscherick & Shanda Ban (Host), Josh Cunningham

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Series Code: E

Program Code: E000012


00:19 Hello and welcome to Engage, I'm David Asscherick and we
00:23 are thrilled that you have joined us today for our program.
00:27 Titled, When Love Is Not Enough!
00:30 Now the Bible says in Psalms 37:4, "delight yourself in
00:34 "the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart."
00:38 Now that raises the question, what exactly are those
00:41 desires that He gives us?
00:43 There is another hint, a powerful, powerful insight I
00:47 think that we find in the minor prophet book of Haggai.
00:51 Haggai 2:7 in which it refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ
00:55 as "the desire of all nations".
00:59 Think about that for just a moment.
01:01 When we delight ourselves in the Lord He gives us the
01:04 desires of our heart, and according to the Bible Jesus
01:07 is the desires of all nations and all ages.
01:11 So when God gives us the desires of our hearts, do you
01:14 know what He gives us? He gives us Himself.
01:17 Who better to satisfy the longing desires of the human
01:21 heart then Him who made it to desire.
01:24 So our program today, When Love Is Not Enough!
01:27 My co-host Shandra Ban and a returning guest so Shandra
01:31 tell us who is with you today and we are looking forward
01:34 to a great program.
01:36 Absolutely, I'm excited to reintroduce Josh Cunningham to
01:39 our viewers as David mentioned we have had him here before.
01:41 It was a wonderful program about him being a musical
01:44 missionary, a musicianary, Josh if you could just quickly recap
01:48 what we talked about the last time you were here.
01:50 Well last time I was on the program we went over my story
01:53 which basically begins with me being born into an Adventist
01:57 Christian home and growing up to the age of 10 in
02:00 that context and then my family left the church and I
02:03 entered my teenage years rejoicing over the fact I
02:06 didn't have to be part of the church culture I wasn't
02:09 really connected to as a young child.
02:10 I then got involved in playing music and I played rock 'n
02:14 roll music and got in bands and traveled.
02:17 After I finished high school I left home and got in another
02:20 band which then began another chapter in my life.
02:24 That band became quite successful in Australia and to
02:28 lesser extent here in America and elsewhere in the world.
02:32 We had albums that sold in good numbers and we won awards
02:36 and were living a lifestyle that many people would think
02:40 was very desirous, it would be a dream existence
02:44 for a lot of people.
02:45 But then I started to feel like it wasn't quite enough,
02:50 there was something missing, something lacking.
02:51 There was a deeper desire I had within me and no matter of
02:56 fame or fortune or notoriety or things of the world
02:59 places great value on.
03:01 No amount of those things could satisfy those deep
03:03 longings of my heart.
03:04 In the last program we use the analogy language of living water
03:08 - yeah exactly. Then you sang us that beautiful song,
03:12 but that's what it is you are drinking from the earthly
03:16 wells in of fame and success in this desirable lifestyle,
03:19 but then you had a taste of the living water.
03:23 Exactly and I think also the way that transpired was really
03:27 largely to the faithful prayers of my parents, as I mentioned
03:31 they left the church when I was around the age of 10 and they
03:35 eventually went back and they prayed for many years that
03:38 myself and also my brother and sister had a similar
03:41 experience to me in that they departed from the faith.
03:44 So how did it come about that you came back into the faith?
03:47 My parents where praying specifically that God would lead
03:51 people into my path to witness to me.
03:53 I was traveling around in America and elsewhere playing
03:56 music and they prayed specifically that God would the
03:59 people into my path which is exactly what happened.
04:02 There was a two-year sequence where various people coming
04:06 along, beginning conversations in random situations,
04:09 sometimes after shows, sometimes in the checkout line
04:12 at the grocery store, I had people that were giving me
04:16 books to read and I have this growing interest in
04:18 spiritual things and started traveling with the
04:21 Bible reading it occasionally.
04:23 When you say traveling you mean on tour. - on tour yes.
04:26 There was one person in particular that came into your
04:30 path and really showed you who Christ was, can you tell us
04:33 a little bit more about that?
04:34 Yes, it was about five years ago I met a young lady
04:38 on a plane of all places.
04:39 I remember when I first became aware of this person and
04:45 later on she told me she had the same experience,
04:48 there was a sense that there was something very
04:50 significant, it was a magnetism it was an attraction
04:51 that wasn't necessarily a physical attraction.
04:54 It was something more profound and deeper than that.
04:57 Ultimately upon the promptings of some friends that were
05:01 traveling with me and against my natural instinct
05:05 I approached her and introduced myself and invited her
05:09 to come along to a show we were doing in the area.
05:13 - so did she come? She came, but she missed the show, she
05:16 had to work late so she didn't get to see the band play.
05:19 But what happened was we went out afterwards when
05:22 she arrived after we had finished playing,
05:24 we went out to get something to eat.
05:26 We ordered food and sat there and went cold on the table
05:28 and we just got straight into this conversation.
05:33 I didn't realize it but the reason why I had that sense of
05:39 attraction of magnetism of being drawn to this person
05:42 was because God had put her in my path.
05:45 She was the collimation in cess- ation of the people He led to
05:48 witness to me and she was very intentional.
05:52 She saw as an opportunity to witness, because I had
05:55 burdeningly interested in spirituality.
05:59 - but you didn't see it as a decidedly spiritual thing?
06:03 - no, no but she did.
06:05 - she was very intentional about it?
06:07 - Yeah she is very intentional about it.
06:08 - she was a believer? - yeah.
06:09 - you don't know that at the point but now you know
06:12 she is a believer and she sees it as this opportunity.
06:16 Exactly, so when she started witnessing to me the cobs
06:21 that running in my mind and I am suddenly realizing this is
06:23 no accident, this is no coincidence, this person is not
06:27 just here by chance she has been placed here by God.
06:29 He is trying to reach me, He is trying to draw me into
06:32 a relationship with Himself and it was at that moment
06:35 that I really started to get a deep sense of how much
06:38 God cared for me as a broken individual.
06:41 - so this awareness was not something that took place in
06:44 hindsight after the fact, you are having this awareness
06:48 during the cold food conversa- tion? - exactly, exactly!
06:51 So what happened that evening after your conversation?
06:56 Well we said our farewells and we prayed together.
07:00 She prayed with me, but then I went back to my hotel room.
07:03 - were you in the habit of praying?
07:04 No, I hadn't great since I was a little kid. - really?
07:07 When your little kid - but I am saying for her to pray
07:10 with you this was a change, this is great stuff.
07:13 Yeah, I remember having this adrenaline this feeling of
07:16 it was powerful and something was happening.
07:19 I went back to my hotel room and I got down on my knees
07:23 and knelt by the bed and prayed for the first time since
07:27 I was little kid having to say my prayers
07:29 by my bed and then my mom and dad tuck
07:31 me in for the night.
07:33 So yeah I prayed and invited Jesus into my heart,
07:36 I knew as I said that this was no accident, this is an
07:39 intentional thing that He places this person in my path
07:42 for that very reason.
07:44 So you're touring with your band and obviously
07:47 you were not in your hometown, so do to keep in touch
07:50 with her afterwards? - I did and what eventually
07:53 transpired was that we got into a relationship with each
07:56 other, I guess because God had obviously brought us
07:59 together in such a powerful and profound way.
08:01 We felt that He was leading us into a relationship with
08:05 one another and that was a very exciting and wonderful
08:10 thing. You can imagine as a new Christian as this
08:13 adrenaline, this euphoria - and this is the one that led
08:17 there. - it was kind of logical?
08:20 - It seemed like the logical thing, and even though
08:23 we were very, we had to be careful because as
08:26 a brand-new Christian I recognize the need to separate
08:29 the two relationships, so here I am just entering into a
08:32 relationship with Jesus Christ, but then there's this
08:35 human relationship as well that was also very exciting.
08:37 It was like falling in love on two counts.
08:40 - that's not easy to do, it's very difficult to keep
08:42 those two loves separate, were you successful?
08:46 Yeah, in hindsight probably not as successful as we could
08:50 have been, in hindsight I actually realize now that God's
08:53 purpose in bringing us together is purely for the fact of
08:57 her witnessing to me.
08:59 I don't believe that He had a greater plan beyond that.
09:02 But that's the combination of the story I guess
09:06 we are working our way through.
09:07 Because the title of the program is When Love Is Not
09:10 Enough, and so you begin to think somewhat logically,
09:12 but certainly there must have been some attraction there?
09:15 There is not just a spiritual element, but there is a
09:18 romantic element as well? - Yeah, yeah.
09:20 Something that I don't want to miss there Joshua is
09:23 that you were witness to like that night, that evening,
09:27 and it was that night that you are praying by your
09:30 bedside inviting Jesus into your heart.
09:32 When I hear you say that that's so speaks to me because
09:35 often we think oh you know I witness to someone and told
09:38 them about Jesus, and we think we are planting seeds and
09:42 often times what we take that to mean is that a week or
09:46 two or three, of course this was the culmination but at
09:49 some point someone is going to come in and say the right
09:52 thing and that is the decision.
09:53 The night, the moment of decision.
09:55 Praise the Lord she was faithful - Amen! - Praise God
09:59 she was faithful in that witnessing because that led
10:02 you to your knees. - Yeah!
10:04 I always said to her, as I mention we recognized the
10:08 distinction between the two relationships, we didn't know
10:11 exactly where it was heading, I said to her regardless of
10:15 whether our parts alternately intertwine I will always
10:20 consider it such a great blessing from God that
10:22 you came into my life.
10:24 You are always going to be significant and special
10:27 person in my life.
10:28 Exactly, praise God that she was so faithful in
10:30 witnessing, and I guess it goes to show that you never
10:33 know where you're coming along in someone's journey.
10:36 You never know what stage of that cycle they are at as an
10:40 individual, something singularly insignificant you could
10:44 say may have profound influence on a person.
10:46 - absolutely and I'm sure we've all seen that in our
10:49 own lives, so now you are beginning to talk about the
10:52 relationship in the past tense which leads us to believe
10:55 and our viewers to believe that this is something that
10:58 came to an end. So walk us through that.
11:01 Well early on in our relation- ship and me being a brand-new
11:05 Christian and my default setting having been raised in an
11:08 Adventist home was to gravitate back towards that.
11:13 I started attending church straightaway
11:14 - while you're touring - while I was touring and
11:17 I was seeking out Adventist churches but I was also
11:19 going on Sundays as well.
11:20 That was what I was familiar with and that's what I was
11:23 comfortable with so that is what I tended towards.
11:25 She however was not an Adventist. - so you started to
11:28 see some conflict? - there were some differences and
11:31 even very early on as a new Christian I recognized them and
11:34 I actually for the sake of preserving our relationship,
11:38 I didn't really go too far with what I felt God was
11:41 convicted me of because I knew it would cause a rift or
11:45 a division or a gulf between us that
11:46 I didn't want to be there.
11:49 As a Pastor I see this all the time, when someone has
11:52 fallen in love with the person, or they are going into
11:55 a relationship with someone who is not a believer and
11:58 then they say all he is sweet, or he's kind,
12:00 or she is nice and she's got good values, morals and
12:04 then that person begins to show an interest in spiritual
12:07 things and it is very, very difficult, I mean
12:09 you said looking back you guys didn't succeed
12:11 I don't know if anybody succeeds.
12:13 Keeping those two things, my relationship with God and
12:18 my attraction to this person and this invites,
12:21 this is a recipe for compromise because you don't want
12:24 to have conflict and so you have maybe I can fudge
12:28 here, or maybe this isn't so important and
12:31 it sounds like that is-
12:32 I've seen this to a great extreme and sounds like it is
12:37 what was happening in your experience.
12:38 Yeah and there were little victories along the way
12:41 that made it seem like we were coming in to harmony
12:44 more and more.
12:45 For instance the Sabbath was something I was convicted
12:47 about, and she initially wasn't.
12:50 Then eventually she made a decision with her work
12:54 alternately it would result in her losing her job.
12:57 And she became convicted about the Sabbath as well and
13:00 you look at something like that and the way that God
13:02 brought us together and you think He is working
13:04 and there is a plan here.
13:05 - we'll something we need to just ask, I suppose
13:08 if you are getting into relationship with a person
13:11 who is not a Christian at all it might be easier for us
13:14 to say well you shouldn't be with her, but the very fact
13:17 that she was a Christian, we need to ask
13:19 what is wrong with that? Why can't you just compromise?
13:22 Yeah, I guess that is a good question and a lot of
13:25 people see it that way as long as you share faith in
13:29 Jesus Christ and you like each other and respect each
13:32 other that is enough.
13:34 Love can be enough, I guess that we realized that
13:38 love was not enough.
13:40 As my relationship with God grew, I knew that He was the
13:43 most important thing, at least I wanted Him to be the
13:46 most important thing and I wanted every other aspect of
13:49 my life to fall under the umbrella of God in
13:53 my relationship to God.
13:54 Obviously in terms of relationship, in a serious
13:57 relationship you want that to be firmly rooted on the
14:01 spiritual foundation where we're both in agreement.
14:04 Josh you guys try to harmonize this for as long as
14:06 possible, even to planning your wedding?
14:09 Exactly we ultimately got engaged and we were engaged
14:12 for a year. - that would make a great name for a show,
14:15 Engage, don't you think?
14:17 It could work - it could work.
14:19 Yes so we came to actually within one month of our wedding
14:23 before we realized that we weren't getting any closer.
14:26 I guess there were things that we thought when we decided
14:29 to get married we thought we would go forward in Faith,
14:32 God is leading us closer and as time goes on and we get
14:35 closer to our wedding I'm sure He's going
14:37 to continue that process.
14:38 I think what happened was it got fuzzier and fuzzier as
14:42 the pressure of a wedding date loomed, I guess we just
14:46 felt increasingly distant from one another.
14:49 You said you got to within a month of your wedding,
14:52 so invitations have been sent, plane tickets are booked
14:55 and this is the real deal, not just we are talking about
14:58 getting married but your wedding is planned.
15:00 - ya exactly and it was a pre - Wells probably as planned
15:04 as it could be it was just a very small wedding with
15:07 family, but yeah there was a degree of complication and
15:10 some things that had to be dealt with within that respect
15:13 but at the end of the day you can't go through the
15:15 wedding just because you don't want it to be inconvenient
15:18 for certain people that have made plans around that.
15:20 But how many people do exactly that same thing?
15:22 They have red flags that are indicators that things are not
15:26 going well and they think the wedding will change everything.
15:29 If we could just get married, but I have seen couples
15:33 come into my office all the time, nothing magical happens
15:36 in the wedding ceremony, in fact if anything it will
15:39 actually exasperate, intensify, magnify any issues
15:43 you had before and so yeah, it is difficult to call
15:45 a wedding off a month before the invitations are out,
15:49 but that is very small in terms of difficulty to what
15:52 could've been had you gone through something that God
15:55 just couldn't put His blessing on, and neither of
15:57 you the way you talk about it, it sounds very mutual.
16:00 It was very mutual and I praise the we Lord had the clarity
16:04 that meets all the chaos and confusion, we had the
16:07 clarity of thought to just be strong and say no.
16:10 We each desire to be spiritually united and there was no
16:13 way we could be united in marriage and bring glory to God.
16:16 So when you guys decided not to get married, was that
16:20 the date in the relationship? - no way actually
16:23 separated by degrees, initially remained engaged
16:25 We didn't set a date, got rid of that wedding date.
16:28 - so it wasn't a cancellation it was a postponement?
16:30 Yeah that was initially the idea and then that still
16:33 seemed to be not really working out so we got rid
16:36 of that pressure as well and we weren't engage but still
16:39 in a relationship and eventually we stripped that back to be
16:42 just friends and eventually got to the point we realized
16:45 that our paths were going different directions and it was
16:47 more profitable for each of us to just say goodbye to
16:50 that chapter in our lives and move on.
16:52 Now Josh at any time did you question your faith?
16:54 Did you say I would like to just give this up so I can
16:57 be with this girl?
16:58 No, no and I think that resolve to put God first was
17:06 really the thing that pulled each of us through.
17:08 And where did that lead you then?
17:10 In the fallout from that relationship I ended up, it's
17:14 a funny story actually, a friend of mine, I was on tour
17:17 in Australia with the band and a friend of mine have been
17:22 going to a series of meetings in Sydney and she called
17:26 me up and said hey, come with my friends and I tonight
17:29 we are going to see this intelligent, articulate,
17:31 fast talking American guy.
17:33 It's really powerful. - really they said those words?
17:38 Who could possibly mean?
17:40 Well I turned off at the Sydney entertainment center
17:44 I think it was, and heard David Asscherick speaking.
17:48 It profoundly impacted me, it was a very partial
17:52 presentation and so later on that year I knew -
17:55 did you come just once? - I came twice actually.
17:57 You didn't come and talk to me? No I didn't have time
18:02 because we were doing a show straight after I actually missed
18:04 sound shake and set right through the presentation
18:06 thinking we are on in 20 minutes.
18:08 Were you doing a show in that same venue?
18:11 No it was only a matter blocks away so I managed
18:15 to get back in time and my friend said where are you?
18:18 What's going on?
18:19 There's just a little parenthetical statement here,
18:21 I didn't even know this story until you end up coming to
18:24 Arise, we'll get to in just a second, I think we served
18:27 one another in the foot washing service. - that's right.
18:29 Isn't that right? - yeah.
18:30 So Josh how did you hear about Arise up here in the
18:33 details in this story, you are preaching in Australia and
18:36 that would have been four months at that time.
18:38 So you just never know how these providential
18:41 things are going to arrange.
18:43 So anyway you get the phone call and we're going to go hear
18:45 this guy and - I'm profoundly impacted by that.
18:48 Do you remember what the presentations were?
18:51 It was apologetics, it was Five Reasons Why I Don't Have
18:54 Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. I think that was an
18:58 actually the other seventy-week prophecy, it was just
19:01 beautiful and I just heard God speaking to me.
19:04 And I began listening to a lot of your sermons on audio
19:08 and such and then I knew I was going to be in America
19:11 later on that year so I checked online to see if I can
19:14 find your schedule, maybe you would be speaking some
19:16 where I could go and hear your talk again and I come
19:19 across your Arise website and I really felt
19:21 God leading me there.
19:22 At this stage Laura and I, - just a quick point of
19:26 clarification, Arise for our viewers that don't know
19:30 is a school, a training center that I happen to be the
19:34 director of and Shandra works there as well,
19:37 works as a volunteer so it is a training center.
19:39 Josh gets to the training Center website
19:41 AriseInstitute.com by the way and then what happens?
19:46 Well at this stage Laura and I were just in the final
19:50 trial of trying to cling on to something and I think
19:54 I went there with the intention that perhaps I would be
19:58 able to learn more about these things that I was
20:00 convicted of but still needed to understand better.
20:03 Then I would be able to share them with her and she may
20:05 see things the way I do.
20:07 Why did she want you to go?
20:09 She was probably hoping that I was going to go there
20:11 and learn more about these things and ultimately reject
20:14 some of the things we have been in conflict on.
20:16 The opposite happened, as I got there and started to learn and
20:20 experience that whole faze of my life I really became
20:23 more deeply convicted about it so it became apparent that
20:26 our lives were going opposite directions.
20:28 - very different directions.
20:29 One of the most powerful experiences I had at Arise,
20:32 because initially as you may gather from what I just
20:35 shared I was going to fill my head with knowledge.
20:38 I wanted a intellectual theological understanding and I
20:41 knew that with out reach, with knocking on doors and witnessing
20:43 was part of the deal but I was actually terrified of it.
20:46 I was not cherishing that prospect at all.
20:48 So I go there in spite of this.
20:51 What I found was the most powerful experience actually
20:54 was getting out there knocking on doors.
20:56 I recall one specific incident were I was talking
20:59 to an elderly lady on her doorstep and we have been
21:02 talking for maybe five minutes and I had this feeling
21:04 of overwhelming sense of love for this person whom
21:07 I had met five minutes earlier, and I remember the thought
21:10 crossing my mind I didn't feel anything this powerful
21:14 for a person I was just about to marry.
21:16 This feeling of knowledge? He filled my heart with what love
21:22 really is. - which is the love of God. - Yeah the love of God.
21:28 So you went for intellectual knowledge, or intellectual
21:31 reasons and it ends up with being an experience with
21:35 Ministry, that has come up Shandra over and over again in
21:38 this program that peoples conversions is often directly
21:41 rooted in their ministering to other people.
21:45 So you realize that the love of God is an absolutely
21:49 essential element in your own life, but then later you
21:52 have the opportunity, of course you are realizing this
21:55 that the love of God has to be central to any
21:57 relationship that you might have as well.
21:59 Sort of talk about that a little bit and that will set
22:03 up a song I think you're going to sing.
22:05 I guess what I came to realize about love, and the kind
22:09 of love that has to exist in relationships is that it is
22:12 the love of God. It is God's love.
22:14 Jesus made the statement as I have loved you go and love
22:18 other people. When we look at the way Jesus loved the example
22:20 He set in the Bible, it is a selfless giving love.
22:24 It's love, the kind of love that inspires people into
22:28 Ministry to sharing Jesus with others and I realized that
22:31 I didn't really know what that was about.
22:33 I was loving and a more selfish way on this horizontal
22:35 level but it needed the vertical.
22:37 The love you only have when you got that vertical connection
22:41 with God and I realized to that marriage, the purpose why God
22:44 brings people together is not just so they can live
22:47 happily ever after, is to be obtained to witness and
22:51 share His love with others and I thought to myself how
22:54 could, in the context of the relationship I was in,
22:57 how can we possibly do that when we couldn't even agree
22:59 ourselves on the Spirit foundation.
23:02 Amos 3:3 says can to walk together unless they agree.
23:05 Well we couldn't even agree on the very fundamental
23:08 thing that our relationship needed to be rooted in.
23:11 That is powerful Josh. Then also I was
23:14 contemplating another verse of Scripture, Ecclesiastes 4:12
23:18 where it says threefold cord is not easily broken.
23:21 I was thinking of this in the context of husband and wife
23:23 that is just a twofold cord can be snapped easily.
23:27 But when you put God in there as well, that is a strong
23:31 union and it was on the basis of that, that I was inspired
23:35 to write a song on that theme.
23:37 I wrote it for some friends of mine and I got married
23:39 who were very good examples of that godly
23:41 type of union, godly type of marriage.
23:43 - Amen are you going to sing as that song?
23:46 I am, it's called song for Sam and Katie.
23:48 I can't wait I love this song.
23:50 Even though it is specifically for them it is for all
23:52 Christian people who are planning on marriage.
23:55 This is the key ingredient in God's love.
24:08 Follow your heart is what they say
24:10 I know that if I do
24:12 I've been following something I can't know
24:16 deceitful and a untrue
24:19 I couldn't love you if I tried
24:21 couldn't find a way
24:24 unless my heart is led by God I only go astray.
24:31 If you want to be one heart one flesh
24:34 one instead of two
24:36 it's got the three chords woven, God and me and you.
24:42 If our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes
24:47 only then can we say I love you.
24:54 God is love He gives to us a priceless gift that real
24:59 He gave Himself He gave His own unconditionally
25:04 I want to love you like He does Lord, give me eyes to see.
25:10 The only way I can is if You live inside of me.
25:16 We wanna be one heart, one flesh, one instead of two.
25:22 It's got to be three chords woven, God and me and you.
25:28 If our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes
25:33 only then can we say I love you.
25:42 Well love this kind, love never fails
25:44 it ain't boastful or proud or rude
25:46 it bears all things, believes all things
25:49 rejoices in the truth
25:52 love will never seek her own, loves patient, love endures
25:57 if we want a love like that it's what we'll have to do
26:02 if you want to be one heart one flesh
26:07 one instead of two
26:10 it's got to be three chords woven, God me and you
26:15 if our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes
26:21 only then can we say I love you
26:26 because the love of God is the only love,
26:29 the only love that's true
26:31 the love of God is the only love,
26:34 the only love that's true
26:37 the love of God is the only love,
26:40 the only love that's true
26:43 the love of God is the only love that's true
26:47 it's a love that binds us, binds us tightly,
26:52 is stronger than the grave
26:54 God has joined together now, let no one separate
26:59 this love is forever, it's for eternity
27:04 is the wellspring of our love
27:07 it is the one who is and was and will be
27:17 and if we want to be one heart one flesh
27:20 one instead of two
27:22 there's got to be three chords woven, God and me and you
27:28 if our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes
27:34 only then can we say I love you
27:39 because the love of God is the only love that's true
27:44 and I love you with a love that's true
27:56 - Amen! - Amen thank you so much
27:57 Josh that was absolutely beautiful.
27:59 And thank you for joining us today.


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Revised 2014-12-17