Participants:
Series Code: EI
Program Code: EI190012S
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00:36 Welcome back to this fascinating journey,
00:39 Evolution Impossible, where we're exploring whether 00:41 Darwin's theory of evolution could have really happened. 00:44 I'm Dr. Sven string. 00:45 Maybe at some stage in your life when you stopped to really 00:48 think about what was needed to happen for evolution to work, 00:52 you suddenly wondered if it was really possible. 00:55 You might have felt really alone at that point in time 00:57 because there are so many scientists that say 01:00 that evolution is a fact. 01:02 In this journey, Dr. John Aston has been confirming 01:04 that you are not alone, and he has provided us 01:07 with a cumulative case for why evolution really is impossible. 01:11 It's also encouraging to know that Dr. Ashton 01:14 is not alone either. 01:15 There are many other scientists who have 01:17 rejected evolution as well. 01:19 Back here in the studio with me is Tim Turner. 01:22 Good to have you back here with us. 01:24 We've also got Morgan Vincent, my good friend. 01:26 Glad to have you with us on this conversation. 01:28 And Harley Southwell. 01:30 Glad to have your intriguing and inquiring mind as well. 01:35 John, you actually embarked on a project a number of years ago 01:40 which was to contact at least fifty scientists 01:43 to find out their view of evolution. 01:46 Can you describe to us the process to which you 01:49 entered into and engagements in this project? 01:52 Sure. 01:53 One of the things, I was just shopping for a book 01:57 actually on radiometric dating in a bookshop 02:02 that sold a lot of creationist material. 02:04 And a person came out from the back room and said, 02:09 "Oh, I recognize that voice." 02:10 And he said to me, "John, look, I hope you didn't mind, 02:14 but we actually quoted your name at a conference." 02:17 ~ Could be a bad thing. - Well that's right. 02:19 I was a bit wanting to find out what's going on. 02:21 And he said, "What happened was," he said, 02:23 "we presented a seminar on the evidence for creation 02:29 at Macquarie University in Sidney." 02:31 And the director of the Sidney museum 02:36 showed up and said, "Well look, I don't believe 02:38 that any practicing scientist with a PhD 02:41 would believe in a literal six day creation." 02:44 And they said, "Well there's so and so who works at 02:47 the Atomic Energy Commission, 02:49 and there's John Ashton, the industrial chemist." 02:52 And they said, "So I hope you didn't mind using your name." 02:56 And I said, "No, no, I'm happy to witness for the Lord." 03:00 And as I was going forth a little later, I thought, 03:02 well why not write to scientists who reject evolution 03:06 who believe in the literal six day creation 03:08 and actually ask them why, why they do. 03:11 No strings attached. Just ask they why. 03:14 And so I contacted a few friends that I knew, 03:18 a few professors around at different universities, 03:21 and they told me about colleagues. 03:23 I emailed them; fortunately email had started up back then, 03:27 because this was in the late 1990's. 03:29 And I contacted over 80 scientists. 03:33 And I got, most of them were happy to agree. 03:38 And I got well over 70 replies. 03:43 Now what I did was, I had a look through these. 03:46 I selected, I wanted as many women scientists as possible. 03:51 So if a woman sent an article, it automatically got in. 03:55 ~ So a bit of gender balance. - Yeah, a bit of gender balance. 03:58 But the other thing was too, 03:59 I wanted the book to be affordable. 04:01 And I had a 120,000 word limit on the book. 04:06 Now some of the scientists contributed very good articles, 04:09 but they might have been 5000 words or more. 04:11 And I wanted 50 scientists. 04:13 Because that was a very strong number. 04:16 I thought, if I can have 50. 04:17 So... 04:19 ~ I hope you had a few engineers in that number. 04:20 I did, yes. 04:21 The very first one was a top American engineer who 04:25 headed the under water propulsion research lab 04:28 for the U.S. Navy actually. 04:30 Yeah, a brilliant engineer. 04:31 And so, the book was put together essentially 04:35 50 scientists' articles that fitted into that 120,000 words. 04:39 And I think I'm only about, you know, 20 or 30 04:42 words short of that limit. 04:44 So some of my detractors say I picked the best arguments. 04:47 But no, it was whether or not they fitted in that timeline. 04:51 Because they were all very good and a huge variety. 04:54 Now some time later Richard Dawkins did a review of my book. 04:58 And one of his criticisms was, "Well, you know, 05:02 these guys have been trained at church-based universities. 05:05 Of course they're going to believe in creation." 05:08 But really, that was not a fair comment because 05:11 only 10 of the 50 had trained at a church-based university. 05:17 All the rest were trained at secular universities. 05:19 It's pretty amazing that you caught the attention of 05:22 Richard Dawkins at Oxford University. 05:25 Yes, well the evidence that they provided, 05:27 a lot of very high profile scientists 05:29 contributed to the book. 05:31 Like people who were head of quite prestigious laboratories. 05:34 They had qualifications where they had trained at the 05:37 best universities in the world, and so forth. 05:39 And so, these are top scientists that contributed to this book. 05:43 So it's a pretty amazing network of creationist 05:46 scientists in the world. 05:47 Yes, well there's a lot more now. 05:48 I mean, that was 20 years ago. The book came out 20 years ago. 05:51 Maybe your book has been influential, 05:53 leading more to accept the Bible. 05:55 Well, it has been sited at secular conferences 05:59 on science and philosophy, and faith and science, 06:03 this sort of thing, yes. 06:04 And what sort of ranking does it have on Amazon.com? 06:07 Oh, well it has, in the area of creation books, 06:10 it's often in the top 20 books still selling on Amazon. 06:13 This is 20 years after it first came out. 06:17 So that's really, really good. 06:19 And it's gone through many printings. 06:22 It's been translated into German, Italian, Korean... 06:28 ~ Chinese, yes? 06:29 ...Spanish, not Chinese as far as I know. 06:31 Portuguese. 06:33 So quite a number of different languages. 06:36 And the good thing is, you have actually included some of 06:39 those scientific, the reasons from a number of those 06:44 scientists in your book, Evolution Impossible. 06:47 And so, what we wanted to do today is just kind of 06:50 introduce some of those scientists to the panel 06:53 and to the viewing audience as well. 06:55 Tim, I just wanted to ask you, was there any scientist 07:00 in the book, Evolution Impossible, 07:02 that really stood out to you? 07:03 And what really inspired you with their 07:08 case against evolution? 07:09 Well there's really two. 07:12 I was a bit greedy, but... 07:14 ~ You had 50 to choose from. 07:17 The first one is Doctor, I think it's Werner Gitt. 07:21 I don't know, but his, I guess, work with information theory; 07:28 him being an actual sort of authority on information stuff. 07:32 His look at the different levels of information that there are. 07:36 So the first one is really basically it's just, 07:38 you know, if you would take a Scrabble bag 07:39 and drop it on the floor, it would still be information, 07:41 but it wouldn't make any sense. 07:42 It doesn't transmit anything to anyone. 07:46 But the more complex levels, there's five different levels, 07:49 the most complex level was something that 07:51 transmits a message with an expectation of a response. 07:55 And I thought, wow, that's really interesting. 07:57 He goes on to say that's pretty much what DNA is. 07:59 It is the highest level of information that we know. 08:04 And then that was kind of combined with 08:06 the next guy in your book, Dr. Andrew McIntosh. 08:10 And some of his work was really interesting. 08:12 I want to quote, if that's okay, because it's a little bit hard 08:15 to remember all the details. 08:17 But he says, "The biological structures 08:22 contain coded instructions that are not defined 08:25 by the matter and energy of the molecules 08:27 carrying this information." 08:28 And it made me really think. 08:30 It's like, well, where does the information then come from? 08:33 And he goes on to say that it's got to 08:35 come from outside of that. 08:36 So it was like, that for me really just, 08:38 like, when you're talking about that specific information, 08:42 that was something I thought, these guys have 08:44 really done their due diligence. 08:47 And like, they're being honest with the evidence 08:49 that they've got in front of them. 08:51 I was kind of wondering though, is there any specific reason 08:56 why the information has to come from outside the cell itself? 09:01 Well, yes, because it has to come from an intelligence. 09:05 And I think that's one of the points of Dr. McIntosh's paper; 09:09 that energy, for example, can't somehow produce 09:15 meaningful information. 09:16 So this was a hopeful that earlier on some of the 09:20 pro-evolutionists thought maybe sunlight somehow could stimulate 09:26 information, could stimulate some sort of design, 09:29 that some sort of energy system came in. 09:32 And essentially what he's saying is that, 09:35 no, the material world; energy, matter, and so forth, 09:38 can't produce by itself intelligent design. 09:42 It can't encode by itself information. 09:46 That code has to come. 09:47 So the sun out there can't suddenly send us a message, 09:51 "I am 93 million miles away." 09:54 You know. 09:55 It just can't do that. 09:57 And there's nothing out there. That's information. 10:00 It's actually sort of non-material or abstract 10:03 as opposed to the material. 10:05 So in all the cases, I think it was mentioned earlier, 10:07 it comes from an outside source. 10:11 An intelligent outside source already operating. 10:15 Powerful evidence for the existence of God actually 10:17 when you read his paper. 10:19 And there's a whole area in science in the community 10:23 called SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, 10:27 where they're looking for information coming 10:30 through radio waves to the earth. 10:34 And if you find that information being transmitted, 10:37 the natural conclusion is that there's intelligence out there. 10:42 And so, Stephen Meyer would say in his book, 10:45 Signature in the Cell, if we find that similar 10:48 kind of encoded information in the cell, 10:50 it's a signature, it's an indicator to point towards 10:55 an intelligent Creator and Designer as well. 10:58 - It's really quite amazing. - It is, yeah. 11:01 Morgan, how about yourself? 11:03 Was there anybody that really stood out to you 11:05 among this collection of 50 scientists? 11:08 There was, yeah, there was Professor David Gower, 11:11 professor at the University of London. 11:14 And he brings out three major points 11:17 of why he refutes the evolutionary theory and model. 11:21 The first one has to do with the isotopic dating method of, 11:25 you know, fossils, age of matter, and whatnot. 11:28 ~ Radiometric dating? 11:29 ~ Yeah, as well. 11:30 And so, I found that quite fascinating to observe, 11:32 that when he looks at all the evidence, when he observes it 11:36 and took research in that, he couldn't find it matching up. 11:40 The second one is what he would refer to as 11:43 the basic building blocks. 11:45 And again, he just finds order, he finds intelligence with that. 11:50 And following on what you had mentioned, Tim, 11:52 that again, it just can't happen per chance. 11:56 The third point that Professor Gower brings up 11:59 is his own study, after many decades of studying. 12:02 And although I haven't studied to the same level he has, 12:05 what I do resonate with him, though, is 12:08 as he was, I try to be as well; 12:11 that when I'm intellectually honest with myself, 12:13 like Professor Gower, when we see all things around 12:17 in the world, we see order, we observe design. 12:22 We observe this, and have to come to the conclusion, 12:25 well if there's order, if there's design, 12:28 then there's a mind behind this. 12:32 And so, in my field of studying, 12:35 undertaking post graduate studies now, 12:38 you know, I can see that as well. 12:40 In all matter of life, that there is that design as well. 12:43 So a question, if I may, Dr. Ashton. 12:45 A professor like Dr. Gower, or even others 12:50 in your book or around the world, they undertake 12:52 such a pursuit of study in whatever field 12:55 with such purpose and intent, how do you perceive 12:59 those who do study with such purpose, then coming to the end 13:04 of their study and finding that there is no purpose to life? 13:09 Whereas the 50 scientists have taken that pursuit of study 13:13 with purpose and have found purpose. 13:16 There's this almost, this split, this fork in the road 13:19 where they pursue their study with purpose, 13:21 and then some do find purpose and then some don't. 13:25 No, that's true. 13:26 I mean, those scientists are atheists and they're 13:30 content with that, that this world is all there is. 13:34 I think one of the things that just comes to mind, 13:36 as I mix around in the academic circles, 13:40 there are probably a lot more scientists who actually 13:43 believe God and they just haven't confronted the evolution 13:49 issue as such. 13:52 They've heard about it, but they are not working in that field. 13:54 They might be working in some other field of biology, 13:56 but it doesn't come into the evolutionary aspect. 13:59 Or they might be working in, you know, engineering, 14:02 or medicine, or biomedical research, these sort of areas. 14:06 And so, it's sort of like, "Well, that's there. 14:10 I'm not going there. 14:12 I believe in God, I go to church. 14:14 I'm doing my research, and I'm doing it well." 14:17 And I think we'll find there's a large number of scientists 14:19 like that because they've gone through the education system. 14:22 In order to get their degree they passed the exams 14:25 and had to learn about evolution, 14:27 but then they've moved on into other fields 14:29 that aren't directly related to that. 14:31 But they haven't gone into the area to research it. 14:34 Now Professor David Gower, he was in the area where 14:37 he discovered some of the human hormones, you know, 14:40 so he's a world famous biochemist. 14:42 So he's right at that frontier, particularly in mechanisms. 14:46 And also he was very interested, as a Christian, 14:49 to delve into this. 14:51 And I think it's just a shame, there are certainly many 14:53 top scientists that they never find God. 14:58 That's really sad. 15:00 What about you, Harley? 15:02 Was there anybody who really stood out to you 15:04 as you read this book? 15:05 Dr. Ker C. Thomson, the former director of 15:08 the U.S. Air Force Terrestrial Sciences Laboratory. 15:10 He made a very interesting point, when I was reading 15:13 through the book, about how evolution 15:16 cannot be in agreement with the second law of thermodynamics. 15:23 And basically the second law of thermodynamics 15:25 simply teaching that we observe everything 15:28 to slowly be breaking down over time. 15:30 If you put something out into just a vacuum, 15:32 over time it will degenerate. 15:33 It will not become more complex, it will fall apart instead. 15:37 And I think it's something we've talked about, 15:39 how there's no added DNA coming through mutation. 15:43 It's all stuff falling apart. 15:44 We look out in the universe and we see stars burning up 15:47 rather than burning in. 15:48 And all these different kinds of things. 15:51 And so, he's making a very good point about, you know, this 15:55 random event creating order isn't possible 15:59 when we observe the second law of thermodynamics. 16:01 A scientific law which is very well founded. 16:06 But I also have a question that I was thinking about as well. 16:09 If we look out in the universe, and we look at our own planet, 16:13 and look at our own bodies, and so on and so forth, 16:15 and we see the second law of thermodynamics 16:17 in action of things breaking down and not necessarily 16:21 becoming more beautiful, but becoming more ugly over time, 16:24 why would a loving God create that kind of law 16:28 in the universe that would slowly cause everything 16:30 to fall apart if God is suppose to be the Creator and Sustainer? 16:34 Yes, so the Bible, as God is revealed to people 16:39 that really believe in Him, such as Paul, when he wrote that 16:42 He is currently sustaining everything. 16:47 But we also know that God talks about the consequences of evil 16:52 and the effects of evil that have been allowed to happen. 16:57 Because that was man's choice. 16:59 Man chose to disbelieve God and to believe Satan in the fall. 17:04 And essentially the bottom line is that by choosing 17:08 to believe Satan over God, it essentially meant that 17:12 they accused God of being a liar. 17:14 Now if you're a liar, it's very hard to ever 17:18 prove yourself, because whatever you say is... 17:21 ~ Considered false. - Yeah, considered false. 17:23 Or could be, you know. You don't know whether you are. 17:26 So God had to prove it. 17:27 Of course, we know He demonstrated what He was like 17:31 through Him coming to earth as a human and living as Jesus Christ 17:35 and allowing humans to put Him to death. 17:38 Now we can see then that God at that time said, 17:42 okay, when we hand over domain to this sort of power 17:46 that no longer is based on love and truth, 17:50 then we have other effects take place. 17:53 And I think that corresponds to the law of... 17:56 Well, thermodynamics is part of that. 17:58 Now whether that was there in Eden, 18:00 it probably was to a degree. 18:02 Because it can drive thermodynamic processes. 18:05 But God can continually replenish things as well. 18:09 So we've got a supernatural situation. 18:11 So it's almost like God is saying, "Well look, 18:14 I'm still there, I'm still sustaining everything, 18:18 but I'm just withdrawing a little bit and letting... 18:22 You've made these choices, 18:23 I'm letting it follow on with their choice." 18:25 So it's like with a child, as you're teaching a child, 18:30 they're going to be disobedient. 18:31 And there's times where you absolutely stop them. 18:34 You don't want them to run out in the road. 18:35 But there's other times when you say, "Well if, you know, 18:38 you continue to play like that, you're going to fall off that 18:41 and you're going to hurt yourself, 18:42 but it's only going to be a little way." 18:44 And you let them learn the consequences. 18:47 But at the same time, you're limiting how far 18:50 to make sure they don't hurt themselves. 18:52 But you want them to learn some lessons. 18:53 And I think the whole universe is learning a lesson 18:57 that when we turn to evil, this is what happens. 19:01 But I mean, I don't know. They're only thoughts, you know. 19:04 We don't know. 19:06 Another person that you mentioned in your book is 19:07 a geophysicist by the name of John Baumgardner. 19:11 And he worked at the very famous Los Alamos National Laboratory. 19:17 But he made a comment, or used a term, I should say, 19:21 the "Einstein gulf." 19:24 Could you explain what that is, 19:25 because that sounds quite intriguing? 19:27 Yes, well it's very similar to the paper 19:30 that was referred to earlier by Dr. Andy McIntosh. 19:34 And that is essentially that material things 19:39 can't carry the concept of abstract ideas. 19:45 And so, a rock can't tell you that it's on the ground. 19:50 Or a rock can't tell you that it's hot. 19:53 Or something like this. 19:55 And so, there's an idea of communication. 19:59 - Another one... ~ Of course, it can be hot. 20:01 - It can be hot. - It can't tell you it's hot. 20:04 So it can have physical properties. 20:05 But it can't communicate this. 20:07 So what it's saying is that when we use language, 20:11 and so we've got, say, the word here, "evolution," 20:13 written in English, so it involves little letters, right. 20:16 Those letters are written in ink on this bit of paper here. 20:20 And they're physical molecules, as such, 20:23 but they can't actually say anything. 20:26 Those molecules can't say anything. 20:29 There's a gulf. 20:30 What it is, it's an abstract thing. 20:32 My mind looks at those symbols, and in my mind 20:36 I read that and I say there's a message there 20:39 that is saying that evolution is impossible. 20:42 And so, that's a very abstract thing. 20:44 And so, what it's essentially saying, what Einstein is 20:47 essentially saying is that in the theory of evolution 20:51 it works on chemical mutations, it works on material things. 20:56 Those material things can't develop or communicate 21:01 a concept of information. 21:04 And there can never be... They can't spontaneously... 21:08 Material things don't have any property 21:11 that encodes intelligence and design, all these things. 21:14 Because these are abstract things. 21:17 Design is an abstract thing. 21:18 You know, when you design your house, you're maybe 21:21 going to have a house built, and you have an idea, 21:24 "I'd like the bedroom there, and the bathroom there," 21:26 and so forth, these are abstract ideas. 21:28 They're not real. It hasn't been built yet. 21:29 But you can picture it and you can make it. 21:31 That's an abstract. And then you can communicate it. 21:34 You can communicate it with those words, you know, 21:36 "I want the bathroom upstairs." 21:38 You know, and so you get a message, 21:40 and that can go across to the builder who can say, 21:43 "Yes, I can do that. 21:44 I can put the bathroom upstairs." 21:46 And so we are communicating. 21:47 But that's nothing to do with the air molecules 21:50 that are coming out of my mouth, vibrating, carrying sound, 21:53 vibrating off the ear drums, connecting little nerves 21:56 sending a message to the brain. 21:58 That's all material things. 21:59 But it's transmitting a concept. 22:01 And that's what they're saying; there's a gulf. 22:03 And the evolution model is pure material. 22:07 It's the materialistic worldview. 22:10 So this is the, you know, the Einstein gulf. 22:12 And it gets us into this non-material side of things, 22:16 which is really fascinating. 22:17 It's the God side of things. Yeah, cool. 22:20 So having read through all of these 50 or 70 responses 22:25 from these scientists, did you pick any themes coming through 22:29 that, you know, really kind of unified all these 22:33 scientists' reasoning's with regards to rejecting evolution 22:38 and heading towards belief in God, or believing in God? 22:42 It's interesting, I think they all had certainly very common 22:45 interest in science. 22:48 They had very strong scientific reasons for believing in God 22:51 as well as strong faith reasons. 22:54 But maybe you meant to ask the question to the audience there. 22:57 I'm sorry. 22:59 Go for it. 23:00 ~ So any other questions that you might have with regards 23:02 to these scientists and their reasons for rejecting evolution? 23:07 ~ So there was the point made earlier about 23:10 Richard Dawkins' response to your book, 23:12 saying that, you know, these scientists came 23:16 from faith-based institutions where they earned their 23:21 degrees and PhD's, and so forth. 23:23 But you said that wasn't the case for all of them. 23:26 But how many of them really may have been growing up 23:29 in a faith, and then have maybe taken a confirmation 23:33 bias into science? 23:34 Or are we seeing scientists who are coming in atheistic 23:39 seeing design and then deciding to believe in a Creator? 23:42 Sure, so in order to answer that question, 23:46 I actually went a step further. 23:48 And what I did was, I wrote to scientists around the world 23:53 who I heard were Christians and I asked them, 23:56 "Why do you believe in God, 23:58 in the miracles of the Bible, answers to prayers, 24:02 and the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ?" 24:06 And again, I got these responses. 24:10 And one of the conditions to contribute was that 24:14 you had to be educated at a secular university, 24:17 and taught at a secular university as well. 24:20 And a number of those people actually became Christians 24:24 while they were studying at university. 24:27 And they gave their personal testimony there. 24:30 And so, the book came out as, The God Factor, 24:35 published by Harper Collins. 24:37 It's still available under the title, 24:39 On the Seventh Day, as a sequel to, In Six Days. 24:44 But that's an amazing book there, because 24:46 all these scientists had that background, 24:48 educated in secular universities, 24:50 had academic positions, tenured positions, 24:53 in secular universities. 24:54 And many of them came from that background. 24:57 And I actually noticed that when I became a Christian. 25:01 It was after completing my first degree at university, 25:04 while a research fellow at the University of Tasmania. 25:07 So, you know, a number of the contributors did that. 25:13 Any other questions that you guys might have? 25:15 Just maybe more of an observation, 25:17 but it seems by, you know, the discussion that's taking place 25:21 today that science and faith aren't mutually exclusive. 25:25 But rather, they kind of build off each other, 25:27 they feed with each other. 25:29 Two side of the same coin, so to speak. 25:32 ~ Well there's a classic example that of John Polkinghorne 25:35 who was a professor of theoretical physics 25:39 at the University of Cambridge who resigned his position 25:43 to study theology. 25:46 And you know, he's a very strong Christian. 25:49 Matter of fact, I think Stephen Hawkins took his place. 25:56 So that, you know, that's quite fascinating. 25:58 So we have, you know, top physicists. 26:00 And I think when people, particularly in the area of 26:02 physics, they realize, whoa, there's so many really 26:06 interesting things going on here that there's so much evidence 26:11 of a Creator God out there behind the systems 26:16 that we observe in the universe. 26:18 Yeah, it's pretty cool stuff. 26:21 You know, real scientific research points to the Bible. 26:26 So many of the great scientists in the past like 26:29 Isaac Newton, he spent more time writing in the area 26:32 of the Bible and looking at the Bible prophecy 26:35 than in the area of physics and such, you know. 26:38 James Clerk Maxwell, similarly. 26:41 You know, top scientists. 26:42 It's an amazing thing. 26:44 You know, there's a growing number of people who are 26:45 rejecting Darwin's theory of evolution. 26:48 That's the way science works. 26:50 When we discover evidence which demonstrates that a scientific 26:53 theory is false, we need to be honest and willing to reject it. 26:57 That's what many scientists have decided 26:59 to do, and reject evolution. 27:02 But what about you? 27:03 What are you going to replace evolution with? 27:05 I'd like to invite you to explore what the Bible tells us 27:08 about how life began. 27:10 How a God of love described in the Bible 27:13 created a beautiful world in just six days. 27:16 Grab a Bible off your bookshelf or download a Bible app 27:19 on your phone and start reading the Bible 27:21 from the very first chapter. 27:23 Also, get a copy of Dr. John Ashton's book, 27:26 Evolution Impossible. 27:28 It will help you realize that your decision to reject 27:30 evolution is the right one to make. 27:32 Did you realize that there's other evidence that God exists? 27:35 Join us next time as we explore that powerful evidence 27:38 that God wants a genuine relationship with you. 27:41 We look forward to seeing you then. |
Revised 2020-04-14