Participants: Pr. William Lee (Host), Brandon Dent, Colin King, Muta Mwenya
Series Code: FGO
Program Code: FGO000012
|
00:01 Welcome to "For Guys Only."
00:03 A program designed to meet the needs of the urban man. 00:06 I'm Pastor William Lee and I'm so thankful 00:08 that you've joined us for yet another broadcast. 00:11 Today, we have a very interesting topic. 00:13 Today, we're gonna talk about "Financial Management" 00:16 for the urban man. 00:17 Stay tuned as we go right into our broadcast. 00:36 Gentlemen, welcome once again to "For Guys Only." 00:40 Of course, the program that specifically targeted 00:42 to meet the needs of the urban man. 00:45 As we get started today let's just kind of briefly 00:48 introduce ourselves to our viewers all today. 00:51 I'll start with Brandon today. 00:54 Yes, my name is Brandon Dent 00:55 and I'm a retired auto executive 00:58 and I'm running my own marketing company now. 01:02 I'm just came off of a three year tour of duty 01:06 as a treasurer for local chamber organization 01:10 and I'm the financial presenter for the Lake Region Conference, 01:17 Family Life department. 01:20 All right, thank you so much Brandon. 01:22 My name is Colin King. 01:23 I'm a clinical psychologist even though I do have 01:27 a bachelor's degree in a business administration 01:31 and I have two teenagers, I'm married 01:36 and I'm pleased to be on the show once again. 01:39 All right, welcome, Dr. King. 01:41 My name is Muta Mwenya, 01:43 executive director for Elijah 3 Ministries. 01:46 It's urban youth evangelism ministry. 01:49 I'm married, I have two children 01:52 and just excited about the topic today. 01:54 All right. 01:56 As always I'm Pastor William, the pastor of the capital city 01:59 Seventh-day Adventist church in Indianapolis, Indiana, 02:02 part of the Lake Region Conference 02:03 of Seventh-day Adventist. 02:05 Married for seven wonderful years, 02:08 two children and looking for to the great move of God. 02:13 Especially as we talk today about finances. 02:17 This is a subject especially as we named it now 02:21 financial management for the urban man, 02:24 for the urban man. 02:26 So many times we don't necessarily put finances 02:30 at the very, you know, 02:31 nearly top of our to do list of our, 02:35 you know, way into be very successful at. 02:37 Sometimes we have mismanage finances, sometimes you know, 02:42 we find ourselves to be in debt but we want to-- 02:45 you know our viewers say to have some hope, you know, 02:48 to be understand that as a urban man, 02:50 especially as African-American man that we can be successful 02:54 and that our money can be in order as well. 02:59 Brandon, in your introduction you mentioned 03:00 that you have been working with finances for longer time 03:05 as I'm as a retired business executive. 03:07 Look side as well, helping out in running chamber of commerce. 03:12 Well, now help us understand some of these principles 03:15 as we relate to responsible financial management. 03:18 Well, responsible is the key word. 03:21 One of the things we have to first realize is 03:24 that money is a divine trust, a divine trust. 03:29 One of my favorite writers wrote 03:31 that we must ever remember 03:32 that we will give an account in the judgment 03:35 for how we use God's resources. 03:37 So what I've found in all these areas 03:40 that I've worked where you see responsible practice 03:43 that's exactly what you see. 03:46 You see people who take money seriously, 03:49 whether its for spiritual reason or not 03:52 but they take it seriously. 03:54 They account it and they make sure 03:56 that there are-- 03:57 they are accounting for its use. 04:00 So that's an important piece. 04:02 Now we talk about the urban man, 04:05 let's talk about the African-American community. 04:08 In 2010 I'll say 2010, 04:14 African-American's spend about $910 billion, 04:18 almost a trillion dollars on cell phones, electronics, 04:23 clothing, and other items 04:25 that bring no real future value. 04:29 If we were own country, if that was our GDP 04:32 we would be the 16th richest nation on the planet. 04:37 Wow. 04:38 But because we are stratified 04:41 and don't have a real unified system 04:43 of the use of our money one that brings value to our 04:48 own community then, you know, it's a nice, 04:52 it's an interesting statistic 04:53 but we are not been offending from it. 04:56 Okay. Okay. 04:57 So we have to be responsible but, you know, as you say, 05:00 you know for African-Americans that we, you know, 05:02 we will not spend all of our money on material prosperity 05:06 or material thing like cell phones, 05:08 we are not, we should, you know-- should we invest, 05:11 you know, money or-- you know, what should we really do 05:14 with the money that God has given us? 05:17 Because, you know, 05:18 money is really is a stewardship principle. 05:21 It's sound stewardship principle. 05:22 What should we do, how should we be responsible 05:24 with the resources that God has given us? 05:27 What you said, should we invest? 05:29 And I know that's a question at sometimes is hardly debated 05:32 among Christians because some see investing as gambling. 05:37 Every day of life is a gamble. 05:40 We make the best decisions each day of life that we can. 05:45 In praying and asking the Lord 05:47 to give us the best possible outcome. 05:49 And even the parable of the talents 05:53 which was a parable of money, 05:56 in that we see that God expects for us to grow the money, 06:02 the talents, the gifts that He puts in our charge. 06:07 When we, when we invest we should be careful. 06:15 There are investments that are safer than others. 06:18 We can try investing into gambling 06:21 by being very reckless, 06:22 by taking, putting money into things that have bad payoffs 06:27 but if they come through then they are high 06:30 and then there are more conservative and safe. 06:32 I have a lot of money in instruments 06:36 that have guaranteed returns, 06:38 guaranteed returns only way that they won't return 06:41 as of the entire US economy collapses 06:43 and it's possibility but, 06:46 you understand that I'm trying to be responsible 06:50 with the resources that God has put in my charge 06:54 and try to multiply them so that they can be fruitful 06:57 in the work of the gospel and all those things 07:00 that I put my hand to do for His calls. 07:02 Okay. Okay. 07:04 Dr. King, kind of give us the perspective as well 07:06 as it relates to responsible financial management. 07:09 Certainly. 07:10 We do have some African-Americans 07:14 or some blacks or some people in urban cities 07:17 who have done very well, 07:19 who have made very wise financial decisions. 07:23 So I don't want to say 07:24 that every black person is not fiscally responsible. 07:28 We have some very successful people 07:30 and I'm very happy to announce that actually. 07:33 You know, let us sort of put things in perspective thought. 07:36 In 2004, we had roughly about 24.7 percent 07:41 of African-Americans 07:42 we are living below the poverty line. 07:45 You know, average income 07:48 when compared with whites whose average income 07:51 was roughly about $54,000. 07:54 Today, you've got 15 percent of Americans 07:58 who live in below the poverty level 08:01 and now we have 27 percent of blacks 08:04 who are living below the poverty level. 08:07 So our situation has actually worsened. 08:11 And Brandon alluded to the way how we spend our money 08:17 with cell phones and gadgets and so on and so forth. 08:23 Someone quite rightly said that we borrow 08:27 or we spend money that we don't have to impress people 08:33 who don't even like us anyway. 08:36 You know, some of the decisions that we make bury us. 08:42 And for me as a rule of thumb, I think it was Brandon 08:45 who said this on a previous episode, 08:47 when you are going to make a purchase 08:50 ask yourself to question 08:52 is this an asset or is this a liability? 08:57 Is this an asset or is this a liability? 09:00 And quite often it's not an asset it's a liability. 09:05 Okay. Okay. 09:06 Just as for clarification an asset is something 09:08 that actually brings money to you 09:10 and a liability is something that takes it away from you. 09:12 Okay. 09:13 One other thing that, 09:15 if you look at the profile of the wealthy 09:18 they don't take on bad debt, 09:21 but they don't shun on debt. 09:25 They will take on debt for the purpose of purchasing 09:28 an asset that will quickly eradicate the debt 09:35 and then bring them profit. 09:37 But they think it is deplorable for one to take a loan, 09:42 take on debt to purchase a liability. 09:46 Televisions, big screen TVs don't bring money today. 09:50 So that's it, it say that's a liability. 09:51 It's a liability. Okay. 09:53 Because it cost you the money, 09:54 the money goes out in order for you to get it. 09:56 Now it sits there and it brings no money in 09:59 and makes it a liability. 10:00 Okay. But what's a asset though? 10:01 And asset would bring you money. 10:05 All right. For example rental property. 10:07 Okay. 10:08 You know, you buy some property and it appreciates in value, 10:12 that's one it brings you money and then you can rent it. 10:15 You get the monthly rents off of it. 10:17 That brings you money. 10:18 A honorable bill could be what they call a depreciating asset, 10:23 if you use it for purposes of gaining income or wealth. 10:29 Okay. Okay. 10:30 I just want to make a comment on that. 10:33 If you're making $40,000 or $50,000 a year 10:38 why in the world would you go out 10:40 and buy a brand new car for $30,000? 10:44 Why? Okay. 10:46 To boast out. 10:47 That's to be honest you know, to look good. 10:49 It's unseen. It's unseen. 10:50 It makes absolutely no sense at all. 10:53 It's unseen. Okay. 10:54 Okay, yeah. 10:55 And Muta, you know, 10:57 I know you are kind of community 10:59 where Dr. King just said that sometimes happen. 11:03 The income maybe of $40,000 but, you know, 11:06 and in your experience you may see people that do buy 11:09 a $30,000 or even a $40,000 car. 11:13 Kind of share some right on, just your experience working 11:15 in the urban community as it relates to seeing 11:18 how people are using their resources in a positive way 11:21 or even negative way. 11:25 Well, the sad thing is that sometimes you are not even 11:29 making $40,000, they are making $15,000 11:33 and still buying that $30,000 car 11:35 hoping they will able to keep up 11:37 with the payments at least. 11:38 Its not gonna happen. 11:40 Its not gonna happen, that's reality event 11:42 that's why you know, 11:44 a lot of times you are not living in homes 11:47 that are suitable because all their money 11:50 is gonna go to these liabilities 11:53 that they have trumped up. 11:55 Education is big. 11:57 I think not only for just the-- 12:01 those who are living in urban cities 12:03 but young, young men, young black men like you and I, 12:07 you know, getting a good financial coach. 12:11 Getting somebody who maybe 12:13 who is a mentor at your local church. 12:15 I know, Brandon said he works with his local church. 12:18 Find somebody in your church who is experienced with this. 12:23 Ask for some advice. 12:24 Don't try to do it by yourself especially when you have 12:27 no knowledge about it. 12:29 Find somebody. 12:30 That's good. That's good. 12:31 You know, I want to be very practical 12:33 and be very real about, you know, 12:34 as I look at, you know, especially, you know, 12:36 the urban mindset, the urban you know, context is that, 12:39 you know, sometimes and Dr. King I want to, 12:42 you know, reverse what you said before but you know, 12:44 a lot of times we don't see the access, you know, 12:47 where there is a lot of money just flowing. 12:49 You know you are able to do a lot of different things. 12:51 We praise God for that full success stories 12:53 but what about for the man 12:55 that's watching us right now 12:56 and they are thinking to themselves, you know what, 12:58 I don't have money to put away. 13:00 You know, I have all these bills, I have debt, 13:02 I have this and that. 13:03 You know, what can they do 13:06 to maybe turn their situation around 13:08 so that, you know, they will be able to, you know, 13:11 keep a little bit that money and use it for as a purposes 13:14 that can build their assets. 13:17 What do you thing? 13:18 Well, the first thing you have to do 13:20 is you've got to learn 13:22 how to put together a budget, okay. 13:24 You are never going to get control of this thing 13:27 if you don't have measuring it 13:30 and that's what the budget does. 13:31 The budget, first of all identifies 13:34 what your financial obligations are 13:36 and it stacks that up against your income 13:39 and it shows you reliability to handle your bills. 13:42 A lot of people figure they can't handle their bill 13:45 and when we sit down we find out that they can 13:48 but they just never put it all on paper 13:50 and looked at it and said, okay, 13:52 I mean, this is the plan. 13:53 This is how I keep I, this is how much I will spend 13:56 each month on these items 13:57 so that every month my bills are paid, 14:00 I'm putting away a little of something, 14:02 as another will characteristic some of the wealthy 14:05 no matter what their situation is month over month. 14:08 They treat themselves like a bill. 14:10 They put something away for themselves 14:12 and they build that into their budget. 14:15 Once you have that then what you want to do is work on 14:17 getting the debt out of the picture. 14:20 Now there is a technique that is very effective, 14:22 a lot of well known financial specialists promote it 14:29 and that they might is by as the snowball method 14:33 of getting out of debt and it speeds up exponentially 14:37 in time just like the snowball grows 14:38 as you roll it down a hill. 14:40 What you do is you take all of your debt and you put it 14:43 in ascending order according to balance. 14:45 So the one with the smallest balance first, 14:47 high balance less. 14:49 Don't worry about interest rate. 14:50 Doesn't work as well if you 14:51 try to pay the highest interest rate off first. 14:54 Take all of-- expect for the first debt 14:57 and take all of those payments to minimum 15:00 but take all the money that you been paying on them, 15:03 stratifying your money across 15:05 all of these debts for having no real impact in anyone area. 15:08 Take all of that and add it to the payment of the first one. 15:11 Now you've got a pretty nice size payment on the first one 15:14 and you got a small balance. 15:16 It's gonna go away really fast. 15:18 Then you take all of that money, 15:21 add it to the minimum payment of the next one on the list, 15:24 now you've got, you know, 15:26 all the money that you were paying on the first one 15:28 which also includes the minimum. 15:31 So you bring even more money to the second item 15:34 and adding it to the money, that's with the second item. 15:36 So the payment gets much bigger 15:39 and that one gets paid off quick. 15:41 And I did scenarios where people who had 30 years lefts 15:47 on their cars were able to pay them off in ten months. 15:50 People who had ten years left on their student loans 15:56 were able to pay them off in three years. 15:59 It works and it is absolutely phenomenal. 16:02 You just continue that process 16:03 until you get the last debt paid off. 16:06 You know, Brandon is absolutely right 16:08 because if nothing changes, nothing changes. 16:14 Okay. That's so powerful. 16:18 It there's nothing changes, nothing changes. 16:21 You can continue to make the minimum payment if you want 16:24 and think that well, Brandon is crazy. 16:26 It will never work but then nothing is gonna change. 16:29 Consider this, if you have $8,000 in debt, 16:34 at an interest rate of 18 percent 16:37 which is about average and if you only make 16:40 the minimum payment it will take you 25 years 16:45 to pay off that debt and you will have paid out $24,000. 16:52 Okay. Yeah $8,000 debt. 16:55 Eighteen percent. Eighteen percent. 16:57 You make the minimum payment for five years 17:01 and you will be paying $24,000. 17:03 Wow. 17:05 So if nothing changes, nothing changes. 17:08 Got you. I got it. 17:09 That's deep. Man, I appreciate that. 17:12 Let's kind of talk about, you know, 17:13 God have a lot to say about financial management, 17:18 responsible financial management. 17:19 I mean, the Bible is replete with the example other example 17:22 where God calls us to accountability 17:24 as we raise to our finances. 17:26 Let's kind of discuss out a little bit 17:27 because again it is spiritual thing 17:30 that God really cares about us being 17:33 responsible with our money that God has given us. 17:36 So what does that Bible say about this? 17:39 Well, if you go to Proverbs 22:7 17:43 and its talking about debt here. 17:46 There it says "The rich ruleth over the poor, 17:50 and the borrower is servant to the lender." 17:55 And so what the Bible is saying 17:56 is basically debt is economic slavery. 18:00 Economic slavery and we should avoid it. 18:05 The Bible also says in John 1 and verse-- 3 John 1:2 it says, 18:11 "Beloved, I wish above all things 18:12 that thou mayest prosper and be in health, 18:14 even as thy soul prospereth." 18:17 God is not just interested in making you wealthy 18:20 for the sake of wealthy. 18:21 Okay. 18:23 If your soul does not prosper 18:24 you cannot be trusted with wealth 18:26 because wealth is not for us to just be large and in charge. 18:30 It is really for us to be God's stewards 18:33 in getting His work done. 18:35 So as your soul prospers 18:37 God can trust you with more wealth 18:39 because He knows that you will sponsor programs like 18:43 "Dare to Dream" and "For Guys Only" 18:45 and things of that nature. 18:46 Yeah. Yeah. 18:48 Getting the gospel done it takes money to do the gospel. 18:52 It takes money to plant churches. 18:55 It takes money to have dynamic youth ministries and its-- 19:01 we are the ones who have to be conduits of God's blessings 19:06 to those programs if they are to get done. 19:09 That's as good. What about tithing? 19:11 You know, we hear this concept, you know, 19:13 throwing around especially an idea 19:14 that we were talking about tithe. 19:16 And we are gonna ask that tithe definitely you know, 19:19 from Genesis, you know, 19:20 and in that situation as well. 19:23 How important is tithing 19:25 and as a pastor I'm asking you all this but, 19:27 you know, how important is that concept? 19:29 You know, forget the biblical perspective of it. 19:31 Let us, let us just see 19:33 if this was not an instruction from God, 19:34 which of course it is 19:36 but let us just ignore that momentarily. 19:39 The mere act of setting aside a portion of your paycheck 19:45 to give it to someone else makes perfect sense. 19:49 What it does, it makes you now, 19:50 it makes you a more disciplined person. 19:53 It makes you, it makes you pay attention, 19:56 it makes you more responsible. 19:58 Now you add a spiritual aspect to that, God said, 20:02 this is what I want you to do. 20:04 In fact, He said, or in fact 20:06 we believe that not just tithing that is important 20:11 but also in giving a generous offering 20:15 it forces you to budget, 20:17 it forces you to be responsible. 20:20 I've never seen a person 20:22 who tithe faithfully in financial problem. 20:27 Yeah, it's interesting because those who do believe that not 20:30 paying tithe is robbery, when they go back 20:33 and read Malachi starting at verse 8 20:36 it is very clear that not paying 20:39 the offering is also robbery. 20:42 And all the people just kind of, 20:44 they see the tithe as a obligation 20:47 because the percent is spelled out. 20:49 But because there is no offerings percent, 20:52 no specific percent spelled out for offering a lot of people 20:55 think as a optional. 20:57 But God says, where in have 20:58 you robbed Me in tithe and offering. 21:01 So we need to do both in order to not be robbing God. 21:05 And of course God says prove Me. 21:08 I like it when he says that. There's a challenge. 21:10 Yeah, absolutely. He says, prove Me-- 21:11 Bring it on. In order what bring in on. 21:13 Yeah, they see if had opened up 21:15 the windows of heaven and bless you. 21:17 And that's why I like, that's what I love about God 21:19 is that God does challenge. 21:21 You know, He says prove Me. 21:22 He does say and see what I do. 21:24 One of the concepts I think is 21:26 so important for us to understand 21:27 because Bible talks about us being stewards is that 21:30 we need to understand that we don't, we don't pay God. 21:33 We don't pay the church. 21:35 You know, we don't, 21:36 we don't even give to God a gift to the church 21:39 but the Bible says that you need to return to Me. 21:44 So what God is saying first 21:45 and foremost is that He was us-- 21:47 He was our heart, you know. 21:49 For the Bible says that where a man's treasury is 21:53 that's where His heart will be also. 21:55 So more than, you know, 21:57 the finances that God is requiring, 21:59 God says I want your heart first 22:01 and then the finances will fall on line as well. 22:03 That's right. 22:04 And they also well, look at this text well where Malachi, 22:07 you know, spells out and God says you know, 22:10 "I will open up the windows of heaven." 22:13 I want to think about first, how many windows do you have 22:16 in your home as opposed to doors? 22:20 You know, most people just have a front door, a back door, 22:24 maybe a side door, 22:25 two or three doors in their homes. 22:27 But the Bible says that God 22:29 will open up the windows of heaven. 22:34 Now I don't have more than you know, one or two windows, 22:37 you know, in my home, I have number of windows in my home 22:39 and God says that He will pour out a blessing that there shall 22:42 now be room enough to receive. 22:44 So we know that God does not need our money. 22:46 You know, Bible says, 22:48 "God, own the cattle on a thousand hills." 22:50 You know, the God is not leasing the hill. 22:52 You know, it belongs to Him. 22:54 But it's a faith walk that God is asking us to be involved in, 22:59 to really put God to the test and see where not God 23:02 do what He says. 23:03 He will do absolutely. 23:06 I have a couple of just 23:07 experiences from returning tithe 23:10 and having that struggle because for some people, 23:13 it's a struggle. 23:16 Lord, I have to pay this bill. 23:18 I have to do this 23:19 can You spot me until next week. 23:22 Can I just use it for this 23:25 and just double up next week or what not? 23:28 And the Lord has been really kind. 23:31 I remember one time, I was in one of those struggles 23:34 and we really wanted to go to church that morning 23:36 and we just like ah-- 23:38 I said, Lord, we don't really have that much gas 23:40 but I know if I hold on to this money 23:43 it will burn a hole to my pocket. 23:44 So let me return it back to You. 23:46 Okay. 23:48 So we got the family ready and I said Lord, 23:50 that gas that I have in the car is enough to get us to church, 23:52 I don't know how we are gonna return home. 23:55 Anyway we get to church, I have my tithe money in my pocket, 24:00 well the Lord's tithe money in my pocket 24:03 and I finally just commit Lord, this is Your money 24:07 I'm returning back to You. 24:09 At that moment I get the inclination 24:10 to reach my hand in my suit jacket 24:14 and I don't know why, 24:15 because I even battled with it why do I have to stick-- 24:19 I put my hand in my suit jacket and felt a piece of paper. 24:23 I thought it was receipt. 24:25 Something said, open that piece of paper up. 24:28 Put my hand in my pocket, I pulled up. 24:31 The exact same amount of money I was about to return to tithe 24:35 was assurance reimbursement cheque that we had received 24:38 90 days ago it was two days away 24:41 from being expired, Monday. 24:43 Come on now. Come on now. 24:44 So the Lord provided exactly what I was gonna give to Him. 24:49 And He said, get back to him and He just said, you know, 24:52 this is what I'm talking. 24:53 All I want you is to trust me, I will take care of things. 24:56 And then sometimes it may seem like nothing is happening, 25:00 you return the tithe the bills don't get paid, 25:03 something happens but the Lord always finds a way to come back 25:07 and you will see it and say that my Lord, thank you, 25:11 thank you. 25:12 Yeah, David said that I Psalms 37:25, 25:15 and he says "I have never seen the righteous forsaken, 25:19 or his seed begging bread." 25:21 Yes. Yeah. 25:22 Some quick practical solutions 25:25 agree to live within your means. 25:27 Okay. 25:28 If you can afford a car 25:32 buy one for $15,000. 25:34 Do not live above your means, live below your means. 25:40 For the ladies, even this is a show for guys 25:43 avoid killing time at the mall. 25:46 If you gonna go to the mall to exercise to walk, 25:49 leave your money at home. 25:51 Don't take it with you. Yeah. 25:54 Practical solution, use a weekly allowance method. 25:59 And when that money is finished it is finished. 26:03 Take your lunch to work. Okay. 26:06 Very simple, very practical solutions. 26:09 Yes. 26:10 So wives can be assets or liability. 26:15 That's right. That's right. 26:17 Absolutely, absolutely. 26:18 Now our time is running now 26:20 and I just want to kind of you know, 26:21 to get us to back again to, you know, 26:24 disgusting one last time for that person who is struggling 26:27 right now with their resources, they want to give-- 26:31 I should say, they want to return, 26:32 they want to be faithful to God or not, 26:35 you know, how do we really encourage this man-- all right, 26:39 you said before a woman 26:40 especially the man though that's struggling. 26:43 We have a minute and half left, kind of Brandon, 26:45 just kind of wrap it for us and tell us what we can do. 26:50 Well, we talked about the Word of God 26:53 and God has been clear on His promises. 26:56 It takes a measure of faith. 26:58 If what you been doing is not working 27:01 you have nothing to lose. 27:03 Try Him, prove Him as He says and I guarantee you 27:07 He will bless you. 27:09 That's good. That's good. 27:10 You know, a text came to my mind as well that encourages me 27:14 and that's from Luke 6:38 where the Bible says, 27:18 "Give, and it shall be given unto you, 27:21 good measure, pressed down, 27:23 shaken together, and running over, 27:25 shall men give into your bosom. 27:27 For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be 27:30 measured to you again." 27:32 Amen. Amen. 27:34 Press down, shaken together, and running over. 27:38 Bible says that God loves a cheerful giver. 27:42 My brother, I challenge you, you know, 27:44 even though the resources maybe tight right now or maybe you 27:47 are in abundance right now the reality is that 27:50 you are blessed to be a blessing. 27:52 Be faithful to God and won't you see 27:54 that God will be faithful to you every step of the way. 27:57 This has been another just outstanding episode. 28:00 I praise God for just this topic today. 28:03 Let's live responsible for God. 28:06 Until next time I'm Pastor William Lee, 28:08 we look forward to seeing you again "For Guys Only." |
Revised 2015-09-28