Participants: Frank Fournier
Series Code: HPOV
Program Code: HPOV000019A
00:01 Hello, my name is Frank Fournier
00:03 and I want to welcome you to Heaven's point of View. 00:07 We're studying the Parable of the Prodigal Son, 00:09 I'm grateful you're here. 00:10 I would like to invite you to get your Bible 00:12 come and join us; we're having a good time. 00:44 Welcome back. 00:45 We're studying the Parable of the Prodigal Son. 00:47 I would like to invite you to turn with me to Luke 15. 00:51 We're going to be looking at verse 21 now in Luke 15. 00:58 "And the son said to his father," 01:00 this is after he comes home. 01:02 He says to his father, "I have sinned against heaven, 01:05 and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called your son." 01:12 So what's he doing here? Why he is confessing? 01:15 If you remember in our last study, 01:17 I said that there were three steps to salvation 01:19 in so far as the Prodigal son is concerned 01:21 the three C's to salvation. 01:23 Come to your senses, 01:25 come to your God and confess your sins. 01:28 Now friends, is God being reasonable here? 01:30 Is he asking too much? 01:32 Oh no, no there isn't anyone that cannot do this supposing 01:36 that they are paralyzed from the neck down 01:39 because all the action happens in the deep recesses 01:42 of your own personal heart. 01:44 God is not asking us to do penance, 01:47 he is not asking us to make a pilgrimage, 01:49 not to roam or to make, 01:51 he is not asking us to pay money, 01:52 he is not asking us to work hard. 01:55 Have you done it? 01:56 Oh, friends, I hope that you have done it. 02:00 And if you've done it, if you come to your senses, 02:02 come to your God and confessed your sins, 02:04 what do you know? 02:05 Well, look at verse 22, 02:07 we're in Luke Chapter 15 and verse 22. 02:11 "But the father said to his servants," 02:13 which I think represents the angels. 02:15 "The father says to his servants, 02:18 bring forth the best robe and put it on him." 02:21 Now what does the best robe represent? 02:24 Why friends it represents 02:25 the righteousness of Jesus Christ. 02:29 The Prodigal son disrobed when he was confessing his sins, 02:32 he was taking off his filthy garments. 02:34 He was giving them to Jesus 02:36 and Jesus would go to the cross with his sins 02:39 and return and in return he gives him 02:43 his own righteousness, 02:44 the robe of Christ's righteousness. 02:46 What a plan that is, 02:47 what a blessing that is to all of us. 02:50 Now if I have you turn with me to 1 John 9. 02:54 We're looking at this, this concept of forgiveness now 03:00 and I'm sure you all understand this, 03:04 what I'm going to read. 03:05 1 John and this is Chapter 1 verse 9 03:09 I think I made a mistake while ago in saying 03:11 1 John Chapter 9 but no, it's 1 John 1:9. 03:16 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful in just 03:20 to forgive us ours sins, 03:22 and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 03:26 What a promise that is. 03:28 It's just so simple, 03:30 always not always easy to confess our sins. 03:32 I've had struggled sometimes 03:34 when I've done something against someone else 03:36 and I've had to go over there and humble my heart 03:39 and confess what I had done wrong. 03:41 That's not so easy. 03:43 But in the big scheme of things, 03:46 when you think of eternity 03:47 if this is all that God is asking for, 03:49 then don't you think we ought to do it. 03:52 Do you remember Martin Luther? 03:54 Did you know that Martin Luther was obsessed with salvation? 03:58 Oh, yes he was. 04:00 When Martin Luther was just a little boy, 04:02 he wanted to be saved 04:04 but his theology being just a little boy 04:07 and growing up in the Catholic Church, 04:09 I would say his theology was very logical 04:12 and he was a logical thinker and so his idea was, 04:17 that if sin is the problem 04:18 then all I have to do is get rid of sin 04:21 and I will have salvation. 04:22 Well, if you are of age at all, 04:24 you know how impossible that is, 04:26 it's true that sin is the problem 04:28 but trying to keep from sinning 04:31 when you have a sinful nature is one difficult chore. 04:34 And so Martin Luther tried and tried and tried 04:37 to quit sinning in order that he might be saved 04:40 but he could never do it, he just couldn't do it. 04:43 Well, he grew up to be a teenager 04:45 and as a teenager his father recognized 04:47 how intelligent this young man was. 04:49 He sent him to a university 04:51 so that he could become a lawyer. 04:53 Martin Luther had the ability, 04:54 he had the intelligence to be a lawyer. 04:57 But he had this obsession he still wanted to be saved. 05:01 One day he decided that he had solved the problem, 05:03 he knew what to do, so he threw a party, 05:06 he drew all his friends to this party, 05:08 gave away all his gifts and after the party 05:10 he made his way to the nearest monastery 05:13 and there he said to the people 05:15 while after he knocked on the door, 05:16 my name is Martin Luther and I'm here to become a Monk. 05:20 He thought he had solved the sin problem 05:22 because he felt these men in there, 05:24 these monks in those monasteries in there, 05:28 all they did was pray all day long 05:29 and if they prayed all day long then surely they would not sin. 05:34 But let me tell you something, 05:36 sin is not a matter of circumstance. 05:38 Sin is a matter of nature 05:40 and Martin Luther was born with a carnal nature 05:42 and even in a monastery he found himself sinning, 05:46 how frustrating that was. 05:48 So he began a regiment of flagellation, 05:51 he began fasting. 05:52 He entered upon a discipline-- 05:55 a religious discipline which would've killed anyone. 05:57 And well, that's almost what happened, 05:59 Martin Luther became very, very sick in his early twenties 06:02 as the matter of fact he was on his sick bed. 06:06 Now an older monk heard-- 06:07 was going on with Martin Luther 06:09 came from another monastery 06:10 just for the purpose of helping this young man. 06:13 He found Martin Luther in his little cell on a cot 06:17 and he went to visit him there and helped before his bed 06:19 or beside his bed and he said to Martin Luther, 06:22 would you recite the Lord's creed after me? 06:25 Martin Luther said, sure why not. 06:28 And so the older priest began to recite the Lords creed 06:31 and after he would say a phrase Martin Luther would repeat it, 06:35 he would say in other phrase, 06:36 Martin Luther would repeat it 06:37 until he came to the place where he said, 06:40 I believe in the forgiveness of my sins. 06:43 Martin Luther said, I believe in the forgiveness. 06:46 No, no, no, no I believe in the forgiveness of my sins. 06:50 Martin Luther said, I believe in the for, No. 06:52 I believe in the forgiveness of my sins 06:55 and he repeated it over and over 06:57 again with more and more emphasis. 06:59 I believe in the forgiveness of my sins 07:02 until the light went on in Martin Luther heads 07:05 now wait a minute, 07:06 if Jesus Christ went to the cross 07:08 with all the sins of the world 07:09 with all of my sins paid the full penalty 07:12 what in the world, should I not believe, 07:14 is it not my right, is it not even my duty 07:16 to believe on the forgiveness of my sins. 07:22 Do you know that that is true religion. 07:24 I can read it to you from the pen of Ellen White. 07:26 In 1888 materials this is what am reading 07:29 from page 4-- excuse me 948 07:32 it says "True religion, the only religion of the Bible 07:37 is believing in the forgiveness of sins, 07:40 the righteousness of Christ and the blood of the land." 07:45 Is that true? Is that what true religion is? 07:49 Well friends, it is true. 07:51 And it's that simple 07:53 and this is all that God is asking for. 07:55 God has through his son gone to the cross 07:58 and paid the full penalty. 08:00 And he asks us to come to our senses 08:02 about our relationship to Him. 08:03 He asks us to come to Him, 08:05 who alone can help us and he says 08:07 there confess your sins, 08:09 this robe, put away your filthy rags. 08:11 I will give you my robe of righteousness. 08:14 You will find your way into the kingdom of heaven 08:16 with my righteousness not your own. 08:19 And so this is what Martin Luther found 08:21 and you know that Martin Luther began a reformation 08:24 that turned the world upside down 08:26 and defeated one of the greatest churches 08:29 that this world has ever seen. 08:31 It's amazing but that's what it is. 08:33 Now there may be someone who would like to say but, 08:35 you don't know how sinful I'm. 08:37 Well friends, I don't have time today 08:39 but I could point you back to a king, 08:41 king David who at one point 08:44 decide by looking over his balcony 08:46 and seeing a lady there are taking a bath, 08:49 by the way her name was Beth Sheba, 08:52 I don't know how that happens. 08:53 In any case it did he had this lady come up, 08:56 I don't know what it says, 08:58 but finally a month or so later he received the letter saying, 09:01 I am pregnant and king David said 09:04 oh, bummer yeah and you know what he did, 09:08 he had her husband come 09:10 and finally he had her husband killed. 09:14 Yeah, how bad is that. 09:16 What kind of confession did king David give? 09:20 Do you know? 09:21 I would like to have you see this, 09:23 this is second Samuel Chapter 12, 09:25 go with me to 2 Samuel Chapter 12. 09:29 I want you to look at David's confession 09:32 in 2 Samuel Chapter 12. 09:37 By the way he had sent a prophet to help David, he really did. 09:42 The Prophet tell-- told the little parable 09:44 and David found himself with the back against the wall. 09:46 I wanted you to hear just the words 09:48 as they come from God. 09:49 This is verse 7 and verse 8. 09:53 "And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man." 09:57 Watch what God says now. 09:58 "Thus salth the Lord God of Israel, 10:00 I anointed thee king over Israel, 10:02 and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul, 10:05 I gave you your master's house 10:07 and you master's wives into your bosom, 10:09 I gave you the house of Israel in Judah 10:11 and if that had been too little, 10:14 I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." 10:18 And this is what God is saying to the whole world. 10:20 Listen what do you want? 10:22 I will give it to you with my son 10:24 I shall freely give you all things, what do you want? 10:26 Only don't sin. 10:28 Don't go hurt another people, don't go dishonoring my name, 10:32 don't go disgracing yourself. 10:34 I can be a blessing to you, what do you want, 10:37 I will give it to you and I tell you what, 10:39 who had been given more than king David? 10:41 You know he came out of the, he was a hurt boy, 10:45 he was hurting sheep all his life 10:48 and now he was king and he had all of these things 10:51 and how much God had blessed him. 10:53 Now I want you to notice his confession. 10:55 We're looking at verse 13 now, 10:57 we're in 2 Samuel Chapter 12. 11:00 "And David said to Nathan, 11:02 I have sinned against the Lord." 11:03 Well, by the way that was his confession. 11:05 Six words "I have sinned against the Lord." 11:09 And do you know what Nathan said, 11:10 do you know what God said through Nathan? 11:13 "Unto David, the Lord also has put away your sins, 11:17 you will not die." 11:19 Isn't that amazing? 11:22 Yeah, six words that was his confession. 11:26 It's amazing, and God said you will not now die now. 11:30 Friends, it's not as if he didn't, 11:32 there were no consequences, let me tell you 11:34 because when Nathan gave a little parable to David, 11:38 David said that man in the parable, 11:40 he shall pay for fault. 11:42 And God said, that's good, that's good. 11:45 You know, you're pronouncing a sentence against yourself 11:48 and do you know the kind David lost four sons 11:50 because of the sin that he had committed. 11:52 So it was not without consequences, 11:55 but he was forgiven. 11:58 If we confess our sins, 12:00 He is faithful in just to forgive us our sins 12:02 and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 12:06 What a blessing this business of confession is. 12:09 Now I would like to have you turn with me 12:11 to John Chapter 8, turn with me to John Chapter 8. 12:17 We're going to find a real blessing here, 12:19 there's a story in the book of John Chapter 8 12:22 as a matter of fact there is a huge surprise in it 12:24 and even though even as I share with you 12:27 what I'm going to share, you might wonder at my theology. 12:31 Well, hold your tomatoes 12:33 because I hope to redeem myself before the thing is over. 12:36 So at the beginning it might sound a little weird 12:39 my theology that is, but by the time it's over, 12:43 I believe with all my heart, 12:44 I will have redeemed myself, okay. 12:48 In John Chapter 8, a group of Pharisees, 12:51 by the way this is a group of pastors. 12:54 They get together and they decide 12:55 they want to trap Jesus. 12:57 In order to trap Jesus, 12:59 they have to choose one among themselves 13:01 to commit adultery with a harlot. 13:03 Isn't that wonderful a group of pastors getting together 13:06 and choosing one to commit adultery? 13:08 Well, I don't know I hope our pastors today, 13:11 don't do such things 13:12 but somehow it didn't seem to be wrong to them at that time. 13:16 So they actually caught the man and the harlot in the very act. 13:21 If you look at verse 4, we are in John Chapter 8 13:24 we're looking at verse 4. 13:27 "They say unto him Master, 13:28 this woman was taken in adultery in the very act." 13:31 They had dragged this woman over to Jesus 13:34 and then they put her before Jesus 13:36 and they said to Jesus the Bible says, 13:38 that if a woman is caught in adultery 13:40 she should be stoned, what do you say? 13:42 And then they said, this woman, 13:44 she was caught in the very act of adultery, 13:47 what could He say. 13:50 Well, you know what He said, 13:52 do you remember what He said? 13:54 Do you know that they could not have trapped Him, 13:56 He could have gotten out of it on the technicality. 13:58 He could have said where is her husband? 14:01 Doesn't the Bible say that the husband is supposed 14:03 to bring his wife before the judge? 14:05 And where is the other man, 14:07 the one who committed adultery with her? 14:09 Doesn't the Bible say, 14:10 that the both should be brought to the judge? 14:12 And so by those technicalities He might of, 14:14 He might have gotten out of it. 14:16 How about friends, he didn't use the technicality, 14:18 you remember what He said? 14:20 He bent over and He began to write in the dust, 14:22 whether it was on marble floors 14:24 or whether it was in dust I don't know, 14:26 but He was writing in the dust, 14:27 then He stood up and He says, 14:29 those of you who have never commuted sin, 14:31 I want you to catch the first stone. 14:34 Well, what was He writing the dust? 14:36 Well, it's very easy to determine 14:38 what He was writing in the dust, 14:39 He was writing their sins because as we follow the test, 14:43 you find out that they left one after another 14:46 starting with the eldest the next eldest the next eldest 14:49 all the way down the line. 14:50 He knew their ages and He knew their sins 14:53 and that's what He was writing in the dust 14:54 and they became embarrassed by what they were reading 14:58 and so now we come to the part of the story 15:02 that I want to share with you. 15:05 You see the woman was still standing there 15:06 and here's what Jesus said to her, verse 10. 15:10 "When Jesus had lifted up Himself 15:12 and saw none but the woman, 15:14 He said to her, woman, where are your accusers? 15:17 Has no man condemned you? 15:19 She said, no man Lord. 15:20 And Jesus said to her, 15:22 neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more." 15:25 Now listen I have a problem here, 15:28 it's a theological problem. 15:30 How could Jesus say neither do I condemn thee, 15:32 the lady was caught in adultery, 15:34 in adultery wasn't she guilty? 15:37 Did she come there confessing her sins and repenting? 15:39 Well, you know there is no record of it in the text. 15:43 It may be that she had something in her heart 15:45 more than we understand. 15:46 But as far as we know this woman was dragged over there 15:49 and the only thing she expected was to be executed maybe. 15:53 And Jesus says to her, neither do I condemn thee. 15:58 How could he do that? 16:00 I mean how could he say that? 16:01 Do you know what the antonym of condemnation is? 16:05 Do you know that the antonym 16:06 of condemnation is, justification. 16:08 So that when Jesus was saying to this woman, 16:11 neither do I condemn thee, that was negative, 16:14 he was saying this in the negative. 16:15 Neither do I condemn thee, 16:17 do you know if he had said that in the positive, 16:19 he would have said I too justify you 16:23 because the opposite of condemnation is justification. 16:27 Actually, Jesus was giving her the gift of justification 16:32 and this woman had not come confessing 16:35 had not come repenting 16:37 and how are we supposed to relate to that. 16:40 How do you relate to that? 16:42 Well, I would like to help you with this little thing. 16:46 Let me ask you a question, 16:49 did that woman ask to born in this world? 16:52 What do you think? 16:53 If you had a choice between being born here in this world 16:56 and being born on the perfect world somewhere else, 16:59 which one would you choose? 17:00 But the problem is of course, we have no choice 17:02 this woman didn't asked to be born in this world. 17:05 So God, could God condemn her for being born here? 17:09 Why no, it's not her fault, no. 17:13 Did this woman ask to be born with the sinful nature? 17:17 If you had the choice 17:18 between a perfect nature and a sinful nature, 17:21 wouldn't you choose the perfect nature, 17:23 save yourself a whole pile of problems, 17:26 while sure but the woman didn't ask 17:28 to be born with the sinful nature. 17:30 So could God condemn her for having a sinful nature? 17:34 Why no, it wasn't her fault. But here is the punch. 17:40 What do people with sinful natures do? 17:43 Oh, they sin, is that right? 17:48 Well then can God condemn people for sinning? 17:50 Can I help you to see here 17:53 that God cannot condemn people for sinning? 17:56 That God doesn't condemn people for sinning. 17:59 Isn't that a weird theology? 18:01 How can I get away with something like that? 18:04 Well, like I said don't throw tomatoes 18:06 yet, I want you to see something 18:08 and I hope that you will understand. 18:11 Do you know that I've been to Madagascar 18:13 at least four times? 18:14 I want to tell you a story 18:15 that came out of from Madagascar. 18:17 Now I wasn't there when this story was taken place. 18:21 My business partner Kim Busso was there in Madagascar. 18:25 He had a group of Europeans with him. 18:27 And we have a project in Madagascar 18:29 and it's about an hour from the city of Tamatave. 18:33 So they had made their way to the city of Tamatave, 18:35 they were at the fruit vegetable market, 18:37 this is an outdoor market, it's mostly composed I think. 18:40 But anyways here they were in this vegetable market 18:44 they were buying fruit's and vegetables 18:46 and as they were doing this two little girls 18:48 were following them around with her hand out 18:51 they were begging of course, they were making as sad a face 18:54 as they could they were rubbing their bellies 18:57 trying to help them to see how hungry they were. 18:59 It didn't matter too much 19:00 that they were much fatter than we are. 19:02 Just the same, they were trying to show 19:04 that they were hungry. 19:05 And I know what Kim would do, 19:06 he would buy them each a hand of bananas 19:08 and he would give it to them. 19:09 They would go and stash their new found budy here 19:14 and then they would come back 19:15 and continue to follow these men around begging 19:18 for whatever it is that they might give. 19:20 Well, it just so happened that noon came around 19:23 and that noon the men decided that it was time to have lunch 19:26 but they went looking for a restaurant. 19:28 Do you know that in Madagascar at least in those days, 19:31 that's not so many years ago, 19:32 all the restaurants are closed that noon so that, 19:36 the workers in the restaurant can have lunch. 19:39 It's not exactly capitalism, is it? 19:42 But that's how it is there 19:44 and so they couldn't find a place to go for lunch. 19:47 Eventually a young man shows up 19:49 who drives a rickshaw and he says to the man, 19:53 listen I have been watching you 19:54 and I know that you're looking for a restaurant, 19:56 I know one restaurant here in Tamatave 19:59 that is open through lunch and I can bring you there. 20:02 And so they got other rickshaws to come 20:04 and to call the men to this restaurant 20:06 and they ate for one dollar all you can eat, 20:08 don't go in the kitchen everything will be fine. 20:10 You eat for one dollar, all you can eat. 20:12 And as they are going out the door, 20:15 there is a man standing there and the man says to them, 20:18 now that you satisfied your hunger, 20:20 wouldn't you like to satisfy your lusts? 20:24 Now there is no doubt in my mind 20:25 that these men looked at him 20:27 and dismissed him out of hand like, out of our lives. 20:30 We don't need anything like this, you're out of here. 20:32 Oh, no, no he says 20:33 you don't understand, you don't understand, 20:35 these girls are young they are clean. 20:37 Eight, nine years old, seven years old, 20:39 what do you want? We've got it for you. 20:41 Now there is no doubt, that he was dismissed 20:44 with end of a boot probably at this point. 20:47 Now to her to hear Kim tell the story 20:50 after they had return to the institution 20:52 that we have there. 20:53 He says that when he went to sleep at night 20:56 when he went to bed at night, every time he closed his eyes, 21:00 all that he could see was that two little girls begging. 21:06 Question for you, is it their fault 21:09 that they were born on the Island of Madagascar. 21:12 Would you condemn them for that, 21:13 why no, I mean we're born, 21:15 where we're born it's not our fault. 21:17 Was it there fault that they were born 21:18 in the city of Tamatave wouldn't it have been better 21:21 if they had been born in the country. 21:23 Well, perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows? 21:26 If they get dragged into a prostitution ring 21:28 at the age of seven and eight and nine years old, 21:31 would you condemned them, 21:33 if you would catch them in the very act? 21:36 Why no? 21:37 No little girl at that age wants to be involved 21:40 in anything as gross as this. 21:42 There is no doubt in my mind, 21:44 if we would catch them in the very act 21:45 there's not one of us that would condemn them for being caught. 21:50 Well, friends listen, 21:54 are we not born in the world of sin? 21:57 Are we not born with sinful natures? 22:00 Do you think it's our fault 22:01 that we are in this situation that we are in. 22:03 Oh, we have choices to make 22:05 and we make the wrong choices 22:06 and we can suffer for it and all of that. 22:10 No, friends that is not the condemnation of God. 22:16 And it doesn't receive the condemnation of God. 22:20 Can I show you 22:22 where the condemnation really is? 22:24 If you'll turn with me 22:25 and I want you to turn with me in your Bibles, 22:27 you need to see what the Bible says. 22:30 Go to John chapter 3, John chapter 3. 22:34 This is the chapter where Jesus says, 22:37 God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son. 22:41 Now I want to look at verse 17, 22:46 verse 17 in John chapter 3. 22:53 "For God sent not his Son into the world" 22:57 to condemn the world, why not? 23:00 Well, friends it isn't our fault 23:03 that we're in the mess we are in. 23:04 "God sent not his Son into the world 23:08 to condemn the world, 23:09 but that the world through him might be saved." 23:13 Now watch, look at verse 19 now 23:17 and this is the condemnation. 23:20 Jesus is about to put his finger on the problem. 23:24 "This is the condemnation 23:25 that light is come into the world 23:28 and men loved darkness rather than light 23:31 because their deeds were evil." 23:33 If an individual was sick, 23:36 would you condemn that individual for being sick? 23:39 Why no, we don't condemn people for being sick, 23:41 we don't know what went on, why there are sick? 23:45 But supposing that individual refuses to take the medicine, 23:50 then whose faults is it? 23:52 Then we know, then it's his fault. 23:54 This is the condemnation you have a remedy for him 23:57 and he will not take the remedy. 24:02 Do you know that we are sin sick? 24:06 Do you that God has a remedy for the sin problem? 24:09 Do you know that God so loved the world, 24:11 he gave his son the light of the world. 24:14 What does it says here? This is the condemnation. 24:18 That God sent the remedy to this world. 24:21 But men prefer to be sick rather than to be healthy. 24:25 God sent Jesus, what do you do with Jesus? 24:30 God sent the word of God, 24:31 how do you relate to the word of God? 24:34 Do you see it? Can you understand it? 24:37 this is the condemnation 24:39 when God sends us the word from angels 24:42 or however he sends it then he says 24:44 this is the way that I want to walk in this world 24:46 and we say no way, we want to walk our way, 24:49 we want to do what we want to do. 24:51 Who is Jesus anyway? 24:53 We don't believe in organized religion, 24:54 we don't believe in whatever whatever. 24:56 Friends this is the condemnation 25:01 that God sent light into this world 25:03 and men prefer darkness rather than light. 25:07 Now I have another question for you. 25:10 How do you relate to people who do bad things? 25:14 How do you relate to people who do bad things to you? 25:18 Do you relate as Jesus did? 25:20 I have a quotation here, this is gospel workers 373. 25:25 The lord wants his people to follow other methods 25:28 than that of condemning wrong, 25:30 even though the condemnation is just. 25:33 Now why would you do that? 25:35 We can see people doing wrong things and God says no, 25:40 if you want to win them? 25:42 Do approach these people with something 25:45 other than condemnation 25:46 because condemnation does not work. 25:50 Can you see it? 25:52 Condemnation does not work. 25:54 Another quotation, this is volume 5 25:57 of the Testimonies 345 paragraph 2. 26:00 We are not to condemn others, 26:03 this is not our work 26:05 but we should love one and another 26:07 and pray for one another. 26:10 There you are, that's our work, 26:12 we are in the business of reconciling people to God 26:16 and it doesn't work if you use condemnation. |
Revised 2014-12-17