Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Tom Shepherd
Series Code: HPOV
Program Code: HPOV000041A
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00:15 Hello and welcome to Heaven's Point of View.
00:18 Our Series is on Love, Marriage, Sex, and Divorce 00:23 from the New Testament perspective. 00:25 Our featured Host is Dr. Tom Sheperd. 00:28 He is the Professor of New Testament Interpretation 00:32 at Andrews University. 00:33 He is the Director for the Ph. D. 00:36 and Th. D. Programs in that arena there 00:40 and he is also an MPH and Doctor of Public Health as well. 00:46 So, you just wear a number of hats don't you? 00:48 Yes and in this Series we kind of combine this again, 00:53 most of our focus is on what the Scriptures say 00:55 but we also take a look at what some of the statistics are 01:01 about marriage, about sexual experience, 01:04 about divorce 01:05 so that people understand some of the gravity 01:10 of the problems 01:12 and get an idea of the changes that are taking place 01:16 in our Society. 01:18 Yes and today we're going to talk about divorce 01:22 and look at it statistically and Biblically. 01:25 Right. 01:27 So, let's take a look at it, 01:29 it's a huge problem in the United States. 01:32 I'm afraid that it is, now, 01:33 people who live in other countries 01:35 who are watching these programs 01:36 can check material from their own country 01:39 and see what the results are and where things are 01:42 but we've put together, for this program, 01:45 a series of charts, 01:47 I know sometimes people may not like statistics, 01:50 I don't know, when I studied in Public Health 01:52 we had to do a lot of Statistics' studying, 01:54 I kind of like Statistics, it's sort of fun to look at 01:58 and try to figure out what's going on 02:00 and so, that's some of what we do here, 02:03 but before we approach the statistics 02:05 and look at those kinds of figures, 02:08 I want to stress that we are Christians talking about this 02:12 and that we are called to minister to people 02:15 in whatever situation they find themselves in life. 02:18 In this last section of this series 02:21 we're looking at the question of divorce 02:24 and that's such a sad, sad experience 02:27 but there is light, there is hope, 02:29 and the church is called to minister and to help the people 02:33 and actually, seeing these statistics 02:35 is, what shall I say, 02:39 maybe kind of a helpful "wakeup call" 02:41 to the church to say, 02:42 "Wow! this is a major problem in our Society," 02:45 and our church tends to reflect the Society around it 02:50 and make up, we should take this seriously, 02:53 we should not just focus attention only on married people 02:56 or only on young people, 02:58 we need to think about people who are single, 03:00 we need to think about people who are divorced 03:03 and have programs in the church to support them. " 03:07 When we said that having... the other time... 03:10 that having church affiliation helps people not get divorced, 03:15 there's a reason for that, 03:16 I mean, the wonderful teachings of the Bible 03:19 but also in connection with that... the community of faith 03:23 that that has developed also creates a network of people 03:28 sort of a safety net to keep you from going off. 03:30 And that's so important, I mean, I'm a divorced person 03:34 and divorce is never an easy process 03:38 and if you're a Christian, it's not an easy journey 03:42 because you know what God expects 03:45 and yet, you are in a certain situation 03:48 so it is important to have that network, 03:50 that safety net, 03:51 that family of support around you 03:55 because the journey in divorce is a difficult one for everyone. 04:01 I'd like to say here that in the church 04:03 I think, we need to make some changes in the way we approach 04:07 and think about these issues 04:09 because sometimes what happens is 04:11 well, whenever I think divorce occurs... 04:15 it's something that people feel bad about, 04:18 it's an issue of shame for people who've gone through it 04:22 and shame is hard to deal with 04:25 and so what happens is people tend to drift away, 04:27 they tend to back off from the church, 04:30 maybe they go to a different church 04:32 and if there's another church in the area, that's... 04:34 at least they have a place they can go, 04:36 but we need to be watching for people 04:38 and supporting them and say, 04:40 "You know, we're sorry that 04:42 this happened to you but you know what? 04:43 We still love you and we still know that God loves you 04:46 and don't worry... this isn't the end of your Christian life, 04:50 this isn't the end of the road, don't give up hope. " 04:52 You know, it's so important Dr. Sheperd because 04:55 when I had... well even... at the time... 04:58 I was probably contemplating divorce 05:01 but hadn't gotten there yet and I remember being at church 05:04 and a lady just came up to me and she said, 05:07 "You look like you could use a friend. " 05:10 Yeah. 05:11 And... it was... it so profoundly touched me 05:15 because I did need a friend 05:16 because I was going through a really dark time 05:19 and that's what our church family can offer 05:22 that kind of support... not necessarily taking sides 05:26 or ostracizing one of the two partners 05:31 but just being there as a support 05:34 and praying for that person that's going through that time. 05:37 We have to realize that when people go through this, 05:38 it is so stressful, it's like major illness 05:42 it's like losing a family member it is so deeply stressful 05:45 and if you've never had deep stress in your life, 05:49 you're not as sensitive, 05:51 but if you've had any kind of deep stress, 05:53 illness, loss of a loved one, some of these kinds of things 05:56 or divorce in your experience of... or in a family member, 06:00 you're sensitized to it more 06:02 and we just need to be open to the Holy Spirit speaking to us 06:06 and saying, "I think you should support them 06:09 maybe invite them over for lunch or something 06:12 or go pray with them" 06:13 and it can be so encouraging to people 06:16 and sometimes... it's such small little things. 06:19 Just that small thing stayed in my heart 06:21 all these years, "I think you need a friend. " 06:24 Yeah... yeah... 06:26 So, I didn't mean to digress but... 06:28 so what do the statistics say about divorce in the Country? 06:31 Okay, yeah, so we should take a look at it, 06:32 the first... we have these charts... 06:34 and the first one shows the difference and the comparison 06:37 between the marriage rate and the divorce rate 06:39 in the United States between 2000 and 2007 06:41 and when you look at this chart, you notice that 06:45 the divorce rate is about half of what the marriage rate is 06:49 okay, so, this gets... quite a few people will say, 06:52 they'll look at that kind of chart and they'll say, 06:56 "Wow! that must mean that 06:58 50 percent of the marriages end in divorce. " 07:00 In fact, I've heard that. 07:02 Yeah, yeah, well, actually, when you look at this statistic, 07:05 you can't draw that conclusion from this statistic. 07:08 Now, why is that? 07:09 Well, this rate of divorce... 07:13 of marriage rate and of divorce rate... 07:16 shows you the number of people per thousand 07:19 or per hundred thousand 07:21 that are getting married or divorced each year, 07:24 the problem is, they are two different populations 07:27 okay, so, you're either married or you're not married. 07:30 Right, like... either pregnant or you're not pregnant 07:33 right... right... 07:35 So, the people getting married, are all getting married 07:39 from people who are not married, obviously, 07:42 okay, the people who are getting divorced, 07:44 are people who are getting divorced 07:47 from the group that is married. Ahh... 07:49 So, you have two different groups of populations 07:52 and you're actually looking at a static figure 07:55 as to what happens at a particular time. 07:58 Now, fortunately, when most people in a marriage, 08:00 they stay there for at least some time, 08:04 a number of years, 08:05 and many people... a good number of years, 08:08 and so to say that the divorce rate is at... 08:10 four per thousand 08:13 or that the marriage rate is eight per thousand, 08:17 just tells you the rate of what's going on 08:20 from the whole number of... all the population 08:22 but the two groups are coming 08:24 from two separate parts of the population. 08:25 So, if you look at the next chart, 08:28 it shows you the actual numbers of marriages and divorces 08:34 and you see that, typically we have... 08:38 in between 2 and 2.3 million divorces 08:41 in the United States each year, on the other hand, 08:46 the chart after that shows a figure of about 850,000 08:52 or so, of people getting divorces or annulments 08:57 or even up to 950,000 over the same period of time 09:02 or approximate period of time, 09:03 now if you look at those statistics carefully, 09:06 you would see that the total population groups were different 09:09 there is about 300 million people in the marriage group 09:13 that were listed and about 240, 230... in the divorce group 09:18 and people will say, "Why is that, 09:20 has the population of the United States suddenly changed?" 09:23 No, it's that some States don't report. 09:26 Ahhh... 09:28 Now, there are a number of health statistics that are... 09:31 we have in the United States 09:33 and we find that there are certain States, 09:35 for various reasons, will not report what's happening 09:40 and in this case, it's divorce, 09:42 when it comes to abortion, 09:44 there has been a series of States 09:47 that just... they don't report them anymore 09:49 and I'm afraid, not for public health reasons, 09:52 it's for political reasons that they don't do so, 09:54 Hmmm... hmmm... Right... 09:56 So that leads us on to our 09:58 our, our, our, next data, 10:01 so, just because half the marriages... 10:04 the divorce rate and the marriage rate 10:06 are about half of each other, doesn't mean that 10:10 half the marriages are ending in divorce. 10:13 There are two different populations 10:15 so it really doesn't tell you but we can get some better idea 10:19 when we look at... yet some other Stats... 10:22 okay, so, now we come to the slide that talks about 10:27 the percentage of the United States population 10:31 that is married, and it's rather interesting, 10:35 it's been dropping. Hmmm... 10:38 Back in 1970, about 70 percent 10:42 of the U.S. population was married. 10:44 By 1990, it had dropped to just over 60 percent, 10:48 and by 2002, it had dropped to just under 60 percent. 10:53 Hmmm... Right... 10:54 So you have a drop of about... 10:57 about ten percent of the number of people... 11:00 the percentage of people that are married. 11:02 So why do you think that people are getting married less? 11:05 Ah, well, there's any kinds of number of Stats 11:10 that are causing it, 11:12 now, if we actually look at the next slide, 11:14 the percentage of the United States population 11:16 that is divorced... 11:17 this is really kind of more shocking, 11:19 people not getting married... well that's one thing... 11:22 but people getting divorced... 11:24 the percentage of the population that's divorced has been rising, 11:28 back in 1980, it was at about six percent, 11:31 in 1990, it was eight percent, in 2002, it was ten percent. 11:37 Hmmm... 11:38 Now, the previous Stats that I gave you 11:41 about that percentages of the population that were married 11:45 was... in about... 11:46 well, in the first one it was about 20-year gap 11:49 from 1970 to 1990 11:51 and then another 12 years from 1990 to 2002 11:55 but the percentages of the U.S. population divorced 11:58 is in about ten-year intervals going from 1980 to 1990 to 2002 12:03 so you go from six to eight to ten, 12:06 Hmmm... hmmm... 12:08 That is striking. It is. 12:10 We have about 300 million people in this Country, 12:13 about 300 million is about the population of the United States, 12:17 when you say that ten percent of the population... 12:20 well, that's 30 million people who are now divorced. 12:24 Wow! it's much easier to get divorced now-a-days 12:28 than it used to be. 12:29 I'm afraid so. 12:31 And we had... on Dare to Dream... 12:33 we had a sermon on "Grounds for Marriage" 12:39 instead of "Grounds for Divorce" it was "Grounds for Marriage" 12:44 and the Preacher was saying, essentially, 12:47 and it was at Andrews, in fact, but he was saying 12:51 that it's much easier to just get into marriage now 12:55 and harder... I mean... 12:57 it's easier to get divorced than it is to get married, 13:00 so people are rushing... 13:04 some people are rushing into marriage 13:06 and then they get married and they find out, 13:09 "Oh! this is not what I wanted" 13:11 and then they're ready to get out 13:12 and they can get out much more easily, 13:14 you know, Society fosters that. 13:16 And actually, we should not make it easy to get divorced 13:21 because divorce destabilizes the Community 13:24 and it creates lot of trouble for... 13:27 particularly for women and for children, now, we can say 13:31 "That's just not fair, it's just not right" 13:33 but that's the reality of what happens. 13:34 It is. 13:35 And so, people who plan for Society and the Church, 13:40 we have a role in promoting things 13:42 should try to do things that help stabilize 13:44 and protect the vulnerable in our Society 13:47 and in our Society, it is still true 13:50 that the more vulnerable groups are women and children 13:54 and the poor and we should do things to help these people, 13:58 now there are several changes in our Society 14:00 that have helped to foster some of these changes, 14:03 where there are fewer people getting married, 14:06 there's more divorce taking place, 14:08 the development of effective treatments 14:12 for sexually transmitted diseases 14:17 has removed much of the fear of sex outside of marriage 14:21 and so, people don't always feel 14:23 that they need to get married in order to have sex, 14:26 we've already had quite a bit of discussions 14:30 about sex in these programs, and we can just reiterate 14:33 that while... it's wonderful to have good treatments 14:37 for sexually transmitted diseases, 14:39 I'm not opposed to treating those diseases, 14:41 I think it's important to treat them 14:43 and as a Public Health Training guy, 14:44 I'm like, "You know you need to find out who is infected 14:47 and you need to get them treated," 14:49 because these diseases can become 14:51 more and more resistant to treatment. 14:53 Absolutely. 14:54 But effective treatments have decreased the fears 14:58 of having sex outside of marriage, 15:00 then there's the development of the Birth Control Pill 15:03 which... about 50 years ago also became effective 15:07 methods of contraception 15:09 and you could have sex outside of marriage without fear 15:12 that you were going to become pregnant, pretty much, 15:15 and... so that also helped to foster 15:18 more promiscuous... 15:20 I mean, it doesn't foster it in the sense 15:23 so people have to choose it, 15:25 but it makes it a little bit more of an option 15:27 available to them 15:28 then there's the economic independence of women 15:30 which has given them more opportunities 15:34 to depend on themselves instead of on a marriage 15:37 in order to have a home, 15:38 and then the rapid rise in abortion 15:41 making it possible for unwanted pregnancies to be terminated. 15:44 Now, the first three of these, we all applaud, 15:47 we say, "Good treatment for disease," amen. 15:51 We say, "birth control," of course, you should be able to 15:53 you know, plan your family out 15:56 and the "economic independence" of women... sure... fine... 16:00 "abortion," we know we as Christians have issues with that 16:03 that this is, life begins at conception 16:06 and that we should protect the unborn, 16:08 but, all these, except the last, we recognize as 16:12 advances and good in our Society 16:14 and tending towards... actually... 16:15 they have tended to push 16:17 in the direction of fewer people getting married. 16:20 So, there you have the decrease in the marriage rate. 16:23 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 16:24 But the increase in the number of people divorced 16:27 also suggests that somehow our Society's view 16:30 of divorce has shifted and the idea of staying married 16:34 has shifted and that creates other problems. 16:38 So, we should also note several other marital statistics 16:46 I just have a few more to share, 16:47 24 percent of the population has never been married before. 16:51 That's pretty large. 16:54 Yeah, now, people say, "Wait a minute, wait a minute 16:57 you said that 60 percent of the people aren't married," 17:01 okay, that's about... 17:02 you're saying, 10 percent are married, 17:04 that's... I guess... it all adds up 17:05 about 35 to 40 percent, 17:07 but I bring this statistic up 17:10 because, we in the church, tend to focus attention 17:13 on those who are married, those who have children 17:16 and the singles tend to get lost in the shuffle some place. 17:21 That's very true. 17:23 Or sometimes, a "Single's Club" is seen as a place to get... 17:27 to find a spouse, you know, and there are people who 17:31 for different places in their life or different times, 17:34 they don't want to get married, 17:35 they're single and they're just in a situation where they are... 17:40 and to be pressured by people to do that 17:43 is just kind of odd and not right. 17:45 That's so true and sometimes people are insensitive, 17:48 you know, "When are you getting married?" 17:50 "Why aren't you married yet?" 17:51 You know, especially if the woman has never been married, 17:55 and she's asked, "When are you getting married?" 17:58 And the implication is, 18:00 "Something's wrong with you because you're not married. " 18:03 Well, then we'd have to say the 25 percent of the population 18:05 has got something wrong with them, right? 18:06 It's rather a biased view and it shouldn't be. 18:10 Seven percent of the population is widowed. 18:13 Hmmm... 18:15 And we need to think about those people. 18:16 Now, the median age of first marriage has been rising 18:20 for males it's right now almost 27-years old, 18:23 for women, it's 25.3 years, okay, so, 18:27 this is a large... this is a much later 18:31 but people aren't waiting for sex. 18:34 That's true, that's what's happening. 18:36 Yeah, that's one of the big pressures 18:38 you see, back earlier... it was a shame, 18:41 it was terrible and it was risky 18:43 to have sex outside of marriage and so you waited 18:45 actually marriages were earlier, 18:47 like early 20s, maybe even back into the teens, 18:50 okay, but now, with all of these different methods of presenting 18:55 and preventing pregnancy, even if you get pregnant, 18:58 dealing with it, of not having problems with 19:01 sexually transmitted diseases as much 19:03 people say, "Well, I can have sex and not get married," 19:07 now, we also have 5.5 million 19:09 unmarried couples living together 19:12 I mean, that's a 11 million people. 19:14 That's a whole lot of people, 19:19 and 89 percent of the unmarried couples living together 19:21 are male/female couples, so some are same sex, as well, 19:24 and so, these statistics are... 19:27 are... are... are rather striking, 19:29 we have the percentage listed here as well 19:33 of married people who reach a marriage anniversary 19:36 and if you look at that table, 19:38 you'll see that has been dropping 19:40 oh well, it drops off, 19:41 the fifth anniversary... about 80 percent of people reach that, 19:45 tenth anniversary... about 60-some people... 19:50 65 percent reach that, 19:52 fifteenth year... it's at about the 50 percent level 19:55 so, some people will say, 19:57 "Well then, are half of the marriages 20:00 ending in divorce anyways, is that within the outcome?" 20:03 Well, I wish we could tell that from this... 20:06 from this statistic, but the problem is 20:09 when you get to the 15th anniversary, 20:12 there'll be... many people are still living 20:15 but some will have died, not so many... 20:17 not so many, 20:19 25th wedding anniversary... only 30 percent reach that, 20:21 35th anniversary... 20 percent reach that 20:25 and the 50th anniversary... 20:27 only about 5 percent reach the 50th anniversary. 20:28 Now, that's not because they all got divorced, 20:31 that is because by the 50th Anniversary 20:33 most people are in their 70s or 80s or something 20:35 and they're just... 20:38 both spouses didn't survive till that time 20:40 but it's still obvious when you look at the statistic 20:43 that there's a huge problem 20:47 in our Country with divorce and that's what our big point is 20:51 in this presentation, 20:52 is that there's a very large problem with divorce, 20:55 one more statistic, no I guess I got two more... 20:58 the percentage of people who have ever been married 21:01 is listed in... 21:03 and for most people by the time they reach their mid-fifties, 21:07 95 percent of the people have been married 21:09 at one time or another 21:11 by the time they reach in their mid-fifties, 21:13 now for a lot of people 21:14 that would be about their 30th wedding anniversary 21:16 and if you go back to the previous slide, 21:19 you'll notice that at the 35th wedding anniversary, 21:22 only 20 percent of the people reach that 21:25 so, there's a fair bit of divorce going on, I'm afraid, 21:30 a fair bit of divorce, 21:31 the very last chart that I have is... 21:35 the probability of a first-marriage disruption 21:37 within ten years by Marriage Cohort, 21:41 now that is such a mouthful to look at that chart 21:45 what in the world does this chart mean? 21:49 Okay, a birth... a Marriage Cohort means 21:52 a group of people who got married at a particular time. 21:55 Okay. Okay... 21:57 So, if you look at the chart, you'll see that it has... 22:00 it breaks them into like four... four- or- five-year segments, 22:04 there's 1950 to 1954, 1955 to 1959, 22:08 1960 to 1964 and so on up to 1980 to 1984... 22:11 these are the people that got married at this time, 22:14 how likely was it within ten years 22:18 that their marriage would split up, okay, 22:21 and this is divided between whites and blacks, 22:24 okay, so we notice that in the 1950s, 22:27 for people being married for ten years, 22:31 the percentage for white couples was 13 22:35 and for black couples was 24, 22:37 sadly that black couples is 22:39 always higher than the white couples, 22:41 this is not to say there's any racial kind of thing here 22:44 somebody is better than somebody else or something, 22:47 there are stresses on different people 22:49 in different parts of Society 22:51 that play a lot of challenge in their life and everything 22:54 we should not be judges 22:56 so we're just presenting the data here of what happens 22:58 but what we notice for both groups 23:01 is that from the 1950s to the 1980s, 23:04 the chances of a first marriage 23:09 breaking up within ten years has about doubled. 23:12 Wow! Yeah, has about doubled! 23:15 So for the people in the white population 23:20 it went from 13 out of a 100 23:22 to almost 30 out of a 100, that's about double, 23:25 for the black population about 24 to 47, 23:27 that's also about double 23:29 so there was something happening back... 23:31 or there was something about our culture 23:33 back in the 1950s, that was quite different 23:36 about our culture in the 1980s. 23:38 Hmmm... hmmm... 23:39 So that it was much more likely that marriages would break up 23:43 so you see, this is a very important topic. 23:47 True. 23:48 It's just something that we as a church need to think about, 23:51 we need to talk about, we need to develop programs 23:56 to help our church members to stay together, 23:59 the best way is for none of this to happen 24:03 for us to help people stay connected together 24:06 and to have a healthy, happy marriage, 24:09 we need to have Seminars to talk about marriage health 24:12 we need to have programs 24:14 that encourage families to do things together, 24:17 that's why I believe so much in things like Pathfinders 24:21 and Little Lambs and Adventurers and all these programs 24:25 that we have and when our young people are in those programs, 24:28 then we, as parents, should be in them too. 24:31 Hmmm... You know... 24:33 That's how our children see our faith on display 24:36 and that's what helps them to recognize 24:38 that our faith is important to us, 24:40 that gives them security, children want security, 24:45 they're unhappy, if actually, 24:47 there are no rules in the household, 24:49 a household with no rules is an unhappy house. 24:52 That's very true, it's reflected in Government as well, 24:57 you have to have rules. 24:59 You have to have rules, you have to have laws, 25:01 and for children, it's kind of like 25:03 a wall that you can put your hand on, you know, 25:07 and you're not going to fall over, 25:08 it gives them security, 25:10 and we've gone through some of these statistics, 25:12 and we've talked about what happens to children in marriage 25:15 and what happens in divorce and what it causes, 25:18 it's so sad, it's so troubling 25:20 that we need to carefully help to prevent these things. 25:24 So, I want to hear at the end of this first section 25:27 we talked a lot about statistics, you know, 25:29 I've got to take the Public Health Hat back off 25:31 and put on the Bible Hat, 25:32 we need to open the Bible to Malachi 2 verse 16, 25:37 if you could read that verse for us. Yvonne: Sure. 25:39 The very last book of the Old Testament 25:43 gives us God's perspective, Malachi 2 and verse 16. 25:48 Malachi 2:16, it says, "For the Lord God of Israel 25:52 says that He hates divorce, for it covers one's garment 25:57 with violence," Says the Lord of hosts. 25:59 "Therefore, take heed to your spirit, 26:02 that you do not deal treacherously. " 26:05 Yes, it says, "I hate divorce. " 26:09 Hmmm... 26:10 "I hate divorce. " Hmmm... hmmm... 26:12 And I want to emphasize because we'll be talking about 26:17 in coming segments, we'll be talking about, 26:20 "What does Jesus say about divorce?" 26:21 We'll be talking about, "What does Paul say about divorce?" 26:23 And... 26:25 people will often... you know... 26:26 when you get into this question, 26:28 people will say, "Well, is it... 26:30 do they have Biblical grounds? 26:32 and what are the Biblical grounds? 26:33 Do they have the right to this 26:35 or do they not have the right to this and everything... 26:38 and you can lose the forest for the trees. 26:41 Hmmm... hmmm... 26:42 I want to bring the "forest message" 26:45 the forest message that God says is, 26:47 "I hate divorce. " Hmmm... hmmm... 26:50 Now He doesn't hate the people, 26:52 but He hates divorce because of what it does 26:55 to children and what it does to families, 26:57 women and men, it just... 26:59 it's just bad, 27:01 we got to try and stay away from it, 27:02 and help our people to do so. 27:04 Absolutely, so would you just summarize 27:06 what we learned from this discussion? 27:08 We've learned that American Society 27:10 has shifted, because of a number of 27:13 opportunities or types of things that have happened 27:16 in our Society, many of them good, 27:18 it has become easier for people to not get married 27:22 and more people have been getting divorced as a result, 27:26 so we have a higher percentage of our population... divorced, 27:29 a lower percentage married 27:30 which just means we have a more unstable Society. 27:33 We've seen that the Bible's message is, 27:35 "It opposes divorce," 27:37 and so we want to emphasize what the Bible does. 27:39 Amen, well thank you so much Dr. Sheperd. 27:42 We want you to be sure to tune in 27:45 take notes, share this information, 27:47 this is such valuable information 27:50 that Dr. Sheperd is giving us 27:52 and the statistics are really important 27:54 because it's showing where we're going as a Society. 27:57 Well, we know where we're going right now, 28:00 we have to end... but we ask you to tune in next time 28:03 as we talk about these timely messages. 28:07 May God bless you. |
Revised 2016-04-14