Participants: Senez Rodriguez (Host), Tom Shepherd
Series Code: HPOV
Program Code: HPOV000046A
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00:19 Welcome to Heaven's Point of View.
00:22 My name is Dr. Senez Rodriguez and we are discussing 00:26 the part of a Series on Love, Marriage, Sex, and Divorce 00:31 according to the New Testament. 00:32 Our special guest today is Dr. Tom Sheperd 00:36 who is a Professor of New Testament Interpretation 00:40 at Andrews University Seminary, 00:43 so, welcome, Dr. Sheperd. Tom: Thank you. 00:46 Last time, we noticed Paul's differences of describing 00:53 some teachings from the Lord and others from him. 00:59 Did he have different levels of inspiration 01:05 you think, when he used those terms? 01:08 Yeah, now we looked at that last time and we said, 01:12 he talked about... he said, "Not I, but the Lord," 01:15 and then he says later on, "Not the Lord, but I... " 01:18 Hmmm... hmmm... 01:20 And so, it gives some people the idea that, 01:23 "Well, the ones that come from the Lord, 01:27 those are ones you have to follow 01:29 but when he just talks about... from him... 01:31 then it's... you know... 01:33 you don't have to take that as heavy... 01:35 it's still like... different levels 01:37 now we said last time that: 01:38 No, Paul had the same view of inspiration 01:41 but the reason he uses the term, "The Lord, not I... " 01:46 is because he is quoting or depending on a saying of Jesus 01:50 when he talks about this topic. 01:52 Now, when he says, "Not the Lord, but I... " 01:55 then he's talking about a situation 01:59 for which he does not have a saying of Jesus. 02:03 Now, what is the topic that he talks about 02:06 in quoting the Lord, specifically? 02:08 When he quotes the Lord, it's the question of divorce. 02:11 All Right. 02:12 Divorce among believers, well, let's read it again 02:15 in 1st Corinthians 7 verses 10 and 11, 02:18 this will be the focus of our study today, 02:21 1st Corinthians 10... 02:22 I'm sorry, 1st Corinthians 7 verses 10 and 11. 02:25 Ten and eleven... "And unto the married I command yet not I, 02:31 but the Lord, 02:32 Let not the wife depart from her husband: 02:36 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, 02:42 or be reconciled to her husband: 02:45 and let not the husband put away his wife. " 02:49 Hmmm... hmmm... now we said last time, 02:52 that this parallels a saying of Jesus, 02:54 the question is, 02:56 "Which saying of Jesus does this parallel?" 02:58 The words of Jesus on divorce 03:01 are found in four different places. 03:05 Matthew 5, Matthew 19, Mark chapter 10 and Luke 16, 03:12 now we studied in detail Matthew 19, 03:18 in previous programs and so... we know there that 03:25 when Jesus talks about divorce that the Lord affirms marriage 03:31 between one man and one woman 03:33 and that he indicated that marriage was to be for life, 03:37 he said, "What God has joined together, 03:40 let not man separate. " 03:43 But we also noticed that in that same passage, 03:48 that Jesus talked about an exception 03:51 when there could be divorce because of sexual immorality 03:57 when a husband or wife had sexual relations 04:01 with someone not their spouse, 04:03 we noted too at that time when we studied that 04:07 that Jesus did not command that you had to divorce, 04:11 there is no text in the Bible ever 04:15 that commands that you have to have divorce. 04:19 Back in Deuteronomy, the divorce was already active, 04:25 already going, and Moses controls it some, 04:28 he says, "If you do this and you give her a divorce, 04:31 then, you cannot do certain things. " 04:33 Jesus never commands divorce so, the issue here is, 04:42 that when He gives this exception clause in Matthew 19, 04:50 also again in Matthew chapter 5, 04:53 that the innocent party had the right to divorce 04:57 if the person had been unfaithful to their marriage vow 05:00 they had slept with somebody that was not their spouse, 05:04 Jesus did not command that they had to divorce 05:07 but He indicated it was justifiable. 05:09 Now the interesting thing is that the same story, 05:13 I mean, it's fairly clear, it's the same story, 05:17 is found in Mark chapter 10 05:21 and in Luke chapter 16 05:23 but there's no reference to the exception clause, 05:26 when you read those two passages, 05:30 it pretty much sounds like Jesus is saying, 05:34 "No divorce, divorce is out," 05:37 and in fact, Paul here, in 1st Corinthians 7 05:41 sounds much like that as well, he doesn't seem to suggest that, 05:45 "Oh... " except... except for... 05:48 if there is marital unfaithfulness, 05:50 he doesn't mention that. 05:52 So, let's take a look at Mark 10 and read the passage, 05:57 Mark 10 verses 2 to 12 05:59 and see how it compares with Matthew 19. 06:03 Mark chapter 10 verses 2 to 12: 06:08 And the Pharisees came to Him and asked Him, 06:13 "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?" tempting Him. 06:19 And He answered and said unto them, 06:22 "What did Moses command you?" 06:24 And they said, 06:26 "Well, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, 06:30 and to put her away. " 06:32 And Jesus answered and said unto them, 06:35 "For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 06:40 But from the beginning of the creation 06:43 God made them male and female. 06:45 for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, 06:50 and cleave to his wife; 06:51 And they twain shall be one flesh: 06:56 so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 07:01 What therefore God hath joined together, 07:04 let no man put asunder. " 07:06 And in the house his disciples asked him again 07:11 of the same matter. 07:13 And he said unto them, 07:14 "Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, 07:19 committeth adultery against her. 07:21 and if a woman shall put away her husband 07:25 and be married to another, she committeth adultery. " 07:29 Hmmm... hmmm... now, this actually sounds 07:32 very similar to what we've read and studied over in Matthew 07:37 there are a few interesting differences between the two 07:41 sometimes people worry about these differences 07:44 they say, "Wait, you know, over in Matthew 07:46 the Pharisees said, 'command' 07:50 and Jesus said, 'allowed' and here it's reversed 07:52 and people say over in Matthew, 07:55 there's no exception clause, there's no exception clause here 07:59 and over in Matthew, 08:02 we noticed that when they come to Him 08:06 and ask Him the question they said, 08:08 "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 08:10 They say, "for any cause," 08:12 and here in Mark it just says, 08:13 "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 08:16 And so they noticed these differences 08:18 in the details between the gospels 08:20 and it upsets them because they say, 08:22 "Wait, this should be the same shouldn't they?" 08:27 I mean, it's the same story, it's like, 08:29 "When Jesus goes to Jericho, 08:32 he meets a man named Bartimaeus. " 08:35 Hmmm... hmmm... 08:36 "Well is it one beggar or is it two? 08:38 Matthew says two, Mark says one" 08:40 "is he going into Jericho or is he going out of Jericho?" 08:44 Luke has him... mentions Him going into Jericho 08:48 and then Matthew and Mark talk of Him going out of Jericho, 08:51 so, people worry about that, 08:53 I mean, it's obviously the same basic story that's going on, 08:57 they say, "How can it be that these four different gospels 09:00 have these minor differences between them?" 09:03 Well, I tend to say it this way to people, 09:06 if you were to go to a Court Room, 09:11 and there had been an accident, 09:16 and there had been four people who had seen the accident, 09:20 and they were brought into the Court to give their testimony, 09:24 what did they see? 09:26 You would not be surprised 09:30 if they got up on the Witness Stand 09:31 and the man said, "Well, there was this black car 09:35 and it was coming... and it ran a red light 09:38 and it hit the white car, you know, 09:41 and it pushed it all the way across, over there. " 09:43 And you wouldn't be surprised if somebody else said, 09:46 "Well, there was a white car that came 09:49 and it hit the black car and pushed it over there. " 09:50 And you might have somebody else 09:53 give a little different kind of a thing... 09:55 and you can say, "Well, those aren't big issues" 09:58 but if they came in and every single detail of what they said 10:04 was exactly the same, you'd tend to say, 10:09 "They made a story up... they were out... 10:13 they were talking together and put their stories together 10:15 so that they were exactly alike. " 10:17 It's funny, in a Court of Law, 10:20 we expect four witnesses to have it a little bit different... 10:23 difference between their 10:24 testimonies and it doesn't bother us 10:25 but when it comes to the four gospels, 10:27 we want that to be exactly... exactly alike. 10:30 You know, no actually, the small differences... 10:34 the small differences between them 10:35 should encourage our faith not discourage our faith. 10:37 So we have the small differences, 10:39 the difference we note is, in particular, 10:42 that Mark has no "exception clause," 10:44 and Mark refers to the wife divorcing her husband 10:47 that Matthew doesn't refer to, 10:49 we notice that Jesus affirms marriage 10:51 but noticed that people do divorce 10:54 even if for... inappropriate reasons, so... 10:58 So why does Matthew have the exception clause 11:02 but Mark does not? 11:04 Yeah, that's a good question, that's an interesting question 11:08 and it's related to something called the Synoptic Problem. 11:11 The Synoptic Problem is the question of 11:16 which gospel was written first 11:18 and did they use each other's writing 11:21 and if so, who used what writing? 11:24 Now, this kind of question, when I raise it in class 11:28 with students, you know, you get the feeling that 11:32 sort of... ahhh... people start to yawn 11:34 and they are like, "You know Dr. Sheperd, 11:37 that's a really interesting question... who cares? 11:40 Who cares who wrote their gospel first and everything?" 11:44 But, you start to realize there's more at stake 11:48 when you face a problem or a question like this, okay. 11:53 Here's what some liberal scholars say. 11:54 They'll say, "Jesus said, 'no divorce,' 11:58 just like it is in Mark," which was reported 12:02 in the earliest gospel, Mark, that's what they maintain, 12:06 Mark was the first one written and there are other... 12:09 other positions that say that Matthew was written first 12:12 and so on, all right, but they... 12:14 it's most common... people say that Mark was written first 12:16 and in Mark, Jesus said, "No divorce. " 12:19 But that was too hard for people to live with, 12:23 they just couldn't take it, so when Matthew came along 12:26 and wrote his gospel some decades later, 12:28 he modified things a bit, he put words into Jesus' mouth 12:34 saying, "Well, there is no exception for divorce 12:39 except if the person committed adultery, then it's okay. " 12:44 When you start to understand 12:48 that that's where people are going with these arguments, 12:51 you start to realize the Synoptic Problem is not 12:54 just a boring question for Scholars to think about, 12:57 it is a very important question that impacts the veracity, 13:02 the inspiration, the authority 13:05 and the applicability of the Word of God. 13:07 How do you answer the question of 13:10 "no exception clause" in Mark? 13:14 All right, so there's an exception clause... 13:16 the data is there, you know, 13:17 we should recognize and admit the data, 13:19 that the data is there, Matthew has an exception clause, 13:21 Mark and Luke do not. 13:23 So, here's how I answer that, we must remember 13:26 the context in which Jesus was speaking, 13:29 okay, it was a dispute with the religious leaders 13:34 not over whether divorce was possible, 13:36 they all held that it was possible, 13:39 but rather on what grounds could it be valid, 13:42 the Hillite... the School of Hillel said 13:48 you could divorce your wife for whatever cause 13:50 and the School of Shammai said, 13:51 "No, only for marital unfaithfulness" 13:54 so the new Hillite ruling... 13:57 this is from David Instone-Brewer's book, 14:00 "Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible" 14:03 he says, "The new Hillite ruling 14:05 did not require any valid grounds for the divorce 14:08 and allowed divorce for any reason, 14:11 therefore, when contemporary Jews heard the question, 14:14 "Is it lawful to divorce your wife?" 14:17 which is the question in Mark, 14:19 they would have mentally added the words, 14:22 "for any reason," 14:24 similarly when they heard the reply, 14:26 "Whoever divorces his wife," 14:29 they would have mentally added the phrase, 14:32 "except for valid grounds. " 14:34 It's similar to what we see in Matthew, actually, 14:37 when Jesus says that if a man 14:40 looks at a woman to lust after her, 14:42 he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 14:44 Now, that' true for every woman except one 14:48 and that's your wife. Hmmm... hmmm... 14:50 And it's all right to have that desire and passion for her, 14:53 in fact, that's what you should do. 14:54 Senez: Hmmm... hmmm. 14:56 So there's an exception to Jesus' statement 14:57 but you understand that you know, 14:59 so, in this kind of context when people would be asking 15:03 this sort of question, "is it lawful to do this?" 15:06 They would have mentally 15:07 said that "exception clause" in their mind, 15:09 Matthew just makes it explicit, 15:11 Mark doesn't, Matthew makes it explicit. 15:14 Also, back to 1st Corinthians 7, 15:17 what is Paul teaching in verse 10? 15:20 All right, let's look at verse 10 again, 15:23 all right, 1st Corinthians 7 and verse 10, 15:26 he says this, 15:28 "To the married, I give this charge, 15:32 not I, but the Lord, 15:34 the wife should not separate from her husband. " 15:38 Paul emphasizes the importance of keeping a marriage intact, 15:44 staying together, 15:46 just like we saw Jesus does over in Matthew, 15:50 just like we've said, we read in Malachi, 15:53 "God hates divorce," 15:55 it is like we read in those passages, 16:00 "What God has joined together, man should not separate. " 16:04 Now, you're a Clinical Psychologist 16:08 and... so I'd like to ask you a question here, 16:11 what ways have you found or have you emphasized to people 16:15 to help them keep their marriages intact? 16:17 The first step is: 16:20 Start right, from the beginning. Hmmm... hmmm... 16:24 Unfortunately many, many, many marriages these days 16:28 start out of passion... 16:29 rather than the principle of love. 16:32 Many people fall in love because of what they see, 16:35 but not for something else, and so, if you "begin right" 16:41 it is more likely that you would stay 16:43 because you are always going to find surprises, 16:48 and most people don't like 16:50 bad surprises, 16:52 we like the good ones but not the bad ones. 16:53 Okay, now, so if you start right, 16:57 you are more likely to continue in that path 17:02 but also, keep your love alive. Hmmm... hmmm... 17:07 And how do you do that? 17:09 Well, you do that by spending time together, 17:13 bringing up the good things about your wife, 17:16 the more good things you bring about your wife, 17:19 the more she falls in love with you 17:22 and the more she falls in love with you, 17:24 the more you feel this "closeness" and so... 17:27 it is a mutual kind of thing rather than... 17:29 If somebody says to you, Doc, 17:30 "Yeah Doc, that's all good... " he said, 17:32 "but I have to work three jobs in order to... 17:34 just to keep food on the table. " 17:36 Well, but you probably had to also do the same thing 17:40 when you fell in love... 17:42 you didn't care to walk ten miles, 17:45 if you didn't have a car, why now? 17:47 Hmmm... 17:49 So, it is a matter of, "What is your priority?" 17:52 Yeah. 17:53 And then you maintain that, 17:55 so if you were in love with your partner, 17:59 it is much more likely that it's going to be stayed together, 18:05 walk together, stay together, 18:07 pray together, eat together, spend time together. 18:11 So you focus on the importance of the relationship 18:14 between the two people, you put that primary 18:17 and there might be some 18:19 challenge or choices that you have to make 18:22 in order to make that happen, 18:24 maybe it's a matter of living in a smaller house 18:27 or maybe in an apartment, 18:29 maybe having one car instead of two or something 18:31 but putting the relationship 18:33 ahead of material resources sometimes 18:37 or material gain and saying, 18:40 "Look, maybe we should live below our means 18:43 so that we have a little more time for each other 18:45 and something like that. " 18:47 Correct because we are living in a competitive world... 18:50 Yes. 18:51 Everybody wants to be better than the other one 18:54 and that puts a lot of stress on a relationship, 18:58 unless you live within your means 19:00 and you understand that the most important thing is, 19:04 your relationship, then, you are opening the door 19:07 for serious problems that you don't need. 19:10 I like what you say about spending time with each other 19:13 because it seems to me that 19:14 our Society tends to soak up time, 19:17 there's so much media, there are so many things... 19:20 internet, there are all these phones with all kinds of Apps, 19:23 sometimes you see people sitting in a restaurant 19:25 and he's looking at his phone or something 19:27 and she's looking at her phone, 19:29 you think, "Wait a minute, 19:30 you're supposed to be here talking to each other. " 19:32 I was in a restaurant recently 19:33 where they have a little display thing there 19:36 you know, where you can swipe your card and stuff, 19:38 and my wife had gone to use the restroom 19:41 and I was looking at this thing, it was tapping and everything, 19:43 and they had games and Apps there, you know, 19:46 and you could pay $2 and it's like, 19:47 "Oh, my! we've come to the restaurant 19:50 to play these little Apps and stuff... " you know, 19:53 "you really should focus on... on talking 19:56 with the person that you're with instead. " 19:58 Exactly, the way that relationships start is by 20:01 maintaining closeness, 20:03 once... anything begins to increase the separation, 20:09 physical separation, communication, 20:11 then you're opening the door for other things, 20:14 all of a sudden... another woman calls your attention 20:16 and you say, "Wow! this is better than mine" 20:19 but then, you're getting into trouble, 20:20 even if you didn't have the plan to do that. 20:23 Hmmm... okay... 20:25 Now, verses 11... 20:30 verse 11 seems to go back on that and say, 20:36 "Well, but if you do divorce 20:39 or separate, then... what?" 20:43 Yeah, okay, let's look a bit, the question is kind of like... 20:47 does Paul contradict Jesus 20:48 because Jesus says, 20:51 "No divorce except for marital unfaithfulness" 20:55 and notice what Paul says in verse 10, 20:57 "To the married I give this charge, not I but the Lord, 21:00 the wife should not separate from her husband. " 21:01 That sounds like Mark 10, 21:03 in verse 11 he says, "But... but if she does... " 21:07 Hmmm... hmmm... 21:09 "but if she does," verse 11, 21:12 "she should remain unmarried 21:15 or else be reconciled to her husband 21:16 and the husband should not divorce his wife. " 21:21 Whereas, Jesus, in Mark 10 mentions no exception, 21:25 it sounds like, "no divorce," 21:28 Paul refers here to "separation" 21:31 using the word, "chórizó" 21:33 which actually is one of those terms 21:38 that could be used for divorce, here... translated "to separate" 21:43 there is the... 21:45 the other word that he uses, 21:47 "the husband should not divorce his wife... " 21:49 is "aphiémi" which means to send away 21:52 so, you almost kind of get the idea of one going away 21:55 and one sending away, kind of a thing, 21:57 they were, sort of... 21:59 the "separate" being the wife's action 22:02 the later... the husband's... 22:04 "the send away" being the husband's action 22:05 "sending her away," 22:07 the two terms, however, may have been fairly synonymous 22:09 that "separate" however, does not equal divorce, 22:13 it does not mean divorce here, 22:15 it's clear from Paul's advice because he says, 22:20 "if she separates, she should stay single or return. " 22:25 Hmmm... hmmm... 22:26 Be reconciled to her husband, however, the word "aphiémi" 22:31 is a common term for divorce and so, you know, 22:35 he says to the wife, "If you go away, 22:37 stay single or come back but... 22:41 otherwise... the husband... he should not divorce her," 22:44 okay, so, he really is about the marriage staying together. 22:50 The parallelism is to Mark 10, 22:54 however, in Mark 10 verses 11 to 12, 22:58 Jesus said, "Whoever divorces his wife... " 23:01 now notice, he recognizes that divorce could happen, 23:05 "whoever divorces his wife and marries another 23:08 commits adultery against her," 23:10 that is... against the first wife, 23:11 "and if she divorces her husband and marries another, 23:14 she commits adultery," 23:16 this suggests that the definition for Jesus 23:20 of what divorce... of this whole... 23:25 put together... this whole thing put together, 23:27 adultery is defined in the following way, 23:29 "divorce... " we would say "without Biblical grounds... " 23:34 divorce plus remarriage equals adultery 23:37 okay, that's Jesus' kind of formula, 23:40 remember, he is very strong on keeping marriages together, 23:45 he said, "What God has joined together 23:47 people should not separate" 23:48 and so, he has this little formula, 23:52 if you have no Biblical grounds for divorce, 23:55 then if you divorce and then you remarry, 23:59 that's the same as adultery. 24:02 Divorce by itself, while tragic, is not defined as adultery, 24:09 it's important to repeat, "Divorce by itself, 24:13 though tragic, is not defined as adultery," 24:16 thus Paul's statement about remaining unmarried, 24:19 or else being reconciled 24:22 is consistent with Jesus' words in Mark 24:27 because Jesus recognized that there could be divorce 24:33 but he doesn't, how shall I say it? 24:37 He doesn't describe... sort of... too much 24:39 the in between state, 24:41 if you just divorced and you didn't remarry. 24:42 He says, "if you divorce and you remarry, 24:44 and you didn't have Biblical grounds for that, 24:46 then that is equal to adultery. " 24:49 But it sounds though like Paul wants the person to stay single 24:56 is that really fair or healthy at all? 25:01 Yes, people wonder about that, 25:03 remember Paul is thinking of what Jesus said 25:06 about God's plan for marriage. 25:09 God's plan for marriage is for it to remain together, 25:13 for people to stay together, 25:15 the Apostle is not talking about 25:17 divorce or separation for valid grounds 25:19 which we've already described as: when a husband or wife 25:23 has sexual relations with someone other than their spouse, 25:27 he is talking about separation or divorce for other reasons, 25:31 and then, like Jesus, he says that the only valid 25:36 and moral thing for the Christian to do 25:38 is to remain single or to seek reconciliation. 25:43 But someone says, "Is that really fair?" 25:46 Hmmm... 25:48 Well, the word, "fair" is an interesting word, 25:51 you know, if you take a piece of chocolate 25:54 and break it in two, and give it to... 25:56 if you take a piece of it, 25:58 one piece of chocolate and you give it to two children 26:00 and say, "Share that... " and they break it in two 26:02 and one gives it to the other one, 26:03 and the other one will say, "It's not fair, 26:05 your piece is bigger than mine. " 26:07 The idea of fairness has something to do with 26:11 the concept of justice, what's right and moral 26:14 and according to Jesus, what is right and moral 26:18 is for people to be faithful to their wedding vows 26:21 and to seek a change of heart rather than a change of partner, 26:25 so "fair," you know, if someone says, 26:29 "Is it really fair that I can't remarry?" 26:32 That's probably the wrong question to be asking. 26:34 Is it healthy? 26:36 Well, that's another interesting question, 26:38 sometimes the healthiest thing is actually for a person 26:42 to remain single, 26:43 when people disregard the teaching of Jesus, 26:46 it does not bring health, it brings heartache, 26:50 so, some people... because of the situations 26:53 and circumstances and attitudes of their life, 26:57 will actually be healthiest and healthiest in a single state 27:01 rather than... in a married state, 27:04 so, here what we've seen so far 27:08 is that Paul takes very seriously... the words of Jesus, 27:11 here there's great parallel to what Mark has said 27:15 and we've already suggested that Mark's... 27:19 the context in which Jesus is talking in Mark, 27:22 would already imply the "exception clause" 27:25 that we fine explicit in the book of Matthew 27:28 but other than this explicit reason for sexual unfaithfulness 27:34 Jesus did not offer some reason 27:36 why people would be able to divorce. 27:38 Well, my friends, we have come to the conclusion 27:44 of this program today, 27:45 we thank you for staying with us 27:48 and I guarantee you that the next time 27:51 we will continue our look at what Jesus says about divorce 27:55 in this interesting passage that we have been discussing. 27:59 So, I invite you to be aware 28:03 of the continuation of this program 28:05 and I'm sure that you're going to enjoy it 28:08 as we have been doing so far. |
Revised 2016-04-25