Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180118A
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00:01 The following program
00:02 discusses sensitive issues related to sexuality. 00:05 Parents are cautioned this presentation 00:07 may be too candid for younger audiences. 00:30 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. I'm Jason Bradley. 00:33 And I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer 00:34 and she is a licensed professional counselor. 00:37 And today, we are going to be talking about 00:40 a sensitive topic, 00:42 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:44 You know, some people are promoting 00:47 acceptance of homosexual relationships 00:49 within the church provided that they're monogamous and loving. 00:54 Do you think that's biblical, Jen? 00:56 That's a really, really, really good question 00:58 and suppressing question right now 01:00 because we're wrestling with this very thing. 01:02 And let me, before I get into this, 01:03 just explain that there are kind of 01:05 two categories of people, 01:07 there are what we call affirming individuals 01:10 who believe that it is okay 01:12 for homosexuals to have homosexual relationships. 01:16 Christian, you know, in a church context, 01:19 provided that the relationship is monogamous, loving, 01:22 and consensual. 01:23 And then there are other people that think that that is immoral 01:26 and those people are called non-affirming. 01:28 I don't like the term because it makes it sound like 01:31 I'm not affirming of gay people or of anything about them. 01:35 This is a little bit derogatory on me, but by that definition, 01:38 I would fall into the non-affirming category 01:40 for reasons that I've unpacked in another episode 01:43 of this program. 01:44 But I want to preface this discussion 01:47 by saying that we've all fallen below God's ideal. 01:51 We need not come into this discussion 01:54 in the spirit of self-righteousness, 01:55 it won't serve us well because all have sinned 01:58 and fallen short of the glory of God. 01:59 Now we go so far as to say, 02:01 we've all sinned in the sexual area 02:03 and fallen short of God's ideal. 02:04 So we need not come in with self-righteousness. 02:07 And some other things we should not do 02:08 in this discussion or not do in general 02:11 is single out homosexuality as a worse sin 02:15 than heterosexual sins. 02:17 We've done that. 02:18 Oftentimes, just put on a pedestal. 02:20 It's like the sin of the sexual sin 02:22 of sexual sins. 02:24 And I don't think I'd cease it that way. 02:26 Another thing we need to be careful not to do 02:29 is marginalizing gay people, 02:31 they're already often struggling 02:32 with the sense of isolation, 02:34 they're dealing with things 02:35 that we don't deal with on a day-to-day basis, 02:38 facing the choice as to whether to live 02:39 a celibate life or live in a partnership 02:42 that many people would consider 02:44 and potentially the Bible considers immoral. 02:46 So you know, they're wrestling with this big time. 02:49 And we need to be sensitive to that 02:51 and not marginalize them. 02:53 And then we also need not be afraid of gay people, 02:56 we call that homophobia, 02:58 as if every single one of them is just, 02:59 you know, like radioactive with sin or something. 03:03 Yeah. 03:04 Well, it seems like some people think that every gay person 03:07 is going to want you just because they're gay. 03:09 That's right. 03:10 Not every heterosexual want you 03:12 just because they're heterosexual. 03:13 Very good. 03:14 Not every gay person want you just because they're gay. 03:16 And that's one of the things that we need to do 03:18 is we need to enable the brothers in the church 03:21 to befriend 03:22 their same-sex-attracted brothers in an appropriate way 03:26 because that same-sex-attracted brother 03:28 often has a deficit of male friendships, you see? 03:32 And the same thing is true of women. 03:34 So we need to cultivate that in the church and really, 03:36 really love people. 03:37 I have male friends. 03:38 I don't think it's always going 03:40 to go the wrong direction at all 03:41 because I got boundaries in place, 03:43 you know, and pretty much always have. 03:44 Yeah. 03:46 So another thing we need not do is over identifying gay people 03:48 with their gayness if I could say it that way. 03:51 You know, they're not just... What do you...? 03:54 Yeah, they're not just gay, they might be a chef, 03:56 they might be, you know, into some water skiing, 03:59 or they might be great with animal, 04:01 they might do animal rescue, 04:02 there may be aspects of their personality 04:04 that we can really rejoice and then share with them. 04:06 And if we're just always seeing gay 04:08 when we look at them, 04:09 that's going to be really marginalizing in and of itself. 04:12 So let me read a quotation from the book Desire of Ages, 04:14 wonderful book on the life of Jesus 04:17 that I recommend to everyone. 04:19 And it says, "Those who call themselves His 04:22 may despise and shun the outcast ones. 04:26 But no circumstance of birth or nationality, 04:29 no condition of life can turn away His love 04:33 from the children of men." 04:35 So it says no condition of life can turn away 04:38 His love from you. 04:39 You know, if you're gay, if you're struggling, 04:43 you're not sure what you're going to do, 04:45 you're trying to follow Jesus, 04:47 just know that nothing can turn away 04:49 His love from you. 04:50 I think we need to set that right in place 04:52 before we discuss whether we can accept 04:55 homosexual relationships in church. 04:58 So I think that... 05:00 Well, some people say 05:03 that we should just simply baptize homosexuals, 05:06 actively homosexual individuals, 05:09 and in time, you know, maybe they'll grow 05:11 toward God's ideal for sexuality. 05:14 How do you feel about that? 05:16 I don't think so. 05:17 You wouldn't baptize somebody who's selling drugs, 05:21 practicing, you know, any type of... 05:23 Things that are clearly against God. 05:25 Any things that are against the Word of God 05:27 and someone that is actively practicing that, 05:29 you're not going to baptize them into the church. 05:34 And so it shouldn't be any different 05:35 for homosexuals, 05:37 like if they are actively practicing homosexuals, 05:40 then they shouldn't be baptized into the church. 05:42 So let me play devil's advocate for a moment here 05:44 and let me just say that often, 05:45 we come into the church with bad habits, 05:48 or maybe a temper, 05:49 or some kind of unconquered sin in our lives. 05:52 Can you give me an idea of what the difference 05:54 is between some of the baggage we carry? 05:57 Well, we always carry baggage so, you know, unconquered sin, 06:00 none of us come into the church 06:01 already free from sin. 06:03 Yeah. 06:04 We all have baggage and all of that stuff, 06:05 and Christ can give us the victory over that. 06:09 However, if we are being intentional about sinning 06:13 and living in a life of sin 06:15 or being intentional about living a life 06:17 that is against God's Word, 06:21 then you're not ready at that point to be baptized. 06:25 And so I've often wondered 06:26 if we should have really two forms of membership, 06:30 so to speak, 06:32 because the reality is that people change 06:35 in the context of a relationship. 06:37 So say, an individual in a gay relationship 06:41 wants to follow Jesus comes to church, 06:43 he is going to and he could, at least, 06:45 potentially encounter God 06:47 and see a revelation of God's love 06:49 that he's never seen before in the church context. 06:53 He'll also potentially come into fellowship 06:55 with other Christians 06:56 who will reflect God's love to him. 06:58 And both of those things are going to help catalyze 07:00 his change process and convince him 07:03 of wanting to study God, 07:04 I mean, to follow God more faithfully. 07:07 So we don't want to say, 07:09 "You got to stay out until you're good 07:11 and then you can come in." 07:12 So my thinking is if we had two forms of membership, 07:15 one was just more of a social membership 07:17 where we embrace people how they are, 07:18 we invite them to events, 07:20 we consider them a brother 07:22 and sister in the humanity sense, 07:25 then we don't have to like leave them out completely 07:27 and then you have church membership 07:29 which is more of an official membership. 07:31 So one is a social membership 07:33 and the other is an official membership. 07:34 What do you think about that? 07:36 Well, so a social membership or an official membership, 07:40 official membership being a voting membership... 07:42 Baptism. 07:43 Yeah, where you have privileges. 07:44 Social membership, just really, they're just... 07:47 They're attending. That's right. 07:48 But we need to really cultivate an atmosphere in church 07:53 and an environment in church 07:54 where we really cultivate a sense of family. 07:57 And we can welcome people into that 07:58 even before they're ready 08:00 for official baptized membership. 08:03 I feel like we could do it without the membership piece 08:06 in the sense that, 08:08 you know, when you have a visitor at your church 08:11 and they come back and they're visiting, 08:12 whether heterosexual or homosexual, 08:15 and they're visiting, 08:17 and you go and you talk to them, 08:18 and you embrace them, 08:20 you invite them to stay for potluck, 08:21 you know, and you get to know the person 08:24 and you cultivate a relationship with them. 08:27 Yeah. 08:28 I feel like it could be done on that level 08:29 as opposed to doing the dual membership type thing 08:33 or not dual membership... 08:34 Well, I'm not proposing like anything official 08:36 but I'm basically saying the same thing 08:38 that you just welcome people 08:39 and you love them on that social level. 08:42 Reading a statement from Romans 6:3-7 08:46 of the English Standard Version, 08:47 it says, "Do you not know 08:49 that all of us who have been baptized 08:51 into Christ were baptized into his death?" 08:54 Baptism is not some light thing, 08:57 it's a very serious commitment. 08:59 "We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, 09:02 in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead 09:05 by the glory of the Father, 09:06 we too might walk in newness of life. 09:10 For if we have been united with Him in a death like His." 09:14 I mean, what is it for God, 09:16 you know, to tell us that when we're baptized, 09:20 we've been united with Him in a death like His, I mean, 09:23 is there anything like His death? 09:24 No. 09:26 But He still gives us that credit, 09:27 it's just almost mind blowing. 09:29 And then it says, 09:30 "We shall certainly be united with Him 09:32 in a resurrection like His." 09:34 That's beautiful. 09:36 "We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order 09:39 that the body of sin might be brought to nothing 09:42 so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 09:46 For one who has died has been set free from sin." 09:49 So what you're doing in committing to baptism 09:52 is you're saying, "I'm dead to sin." 09:54 And if the Bible clearly condemns 09:56 a certain practice, 09:57 you're really saying, "I'm dead to that." 09:58 Yeah. So I agree with you. 10:00 I come down into the same place, 10:02 but I would just like to say, 10:03 I would like to emphasize that we really need to... 10:06 I think that often, 10:09 with our gay brothers and sisters, 10:10 and I speak in the sense of our brothers 10:12 or sisters in humanity. 10:14 Yeah. 10:15 They feel isolated already, they feel marginalized already, 10:18 they feel hated, they feel, even to some degree, 10:20 ashamed of what's going on. 10:23 And often, they're very conflicted. 10:24 We need to slather on extra love, I think, 10:28 because when the bread is dry, 10:29 you put on extra butter you got to get it go down, you know? 10:31 That's right. Yeah. 10:33 So we need to slather on a lot of love 10:34 and a lot of acceptance in every way 10:36 that we can to try to overcome some of the hard feelings. 10:40 But at the same time, 10:42 we need to stand firm 10:44 because we're not actually helping that person 10:47 if we allow ourselves to be swayed. 10:51 And cross over to the enabler side of things. 10:53 That's right. That's right. 10:54 And I feel like a lot of what's happening 10:56 in the church today is we're enabling 10:58 on a mass scale. 11:00 And if we don't regard this issue as an issue 11:03 that involves God's design, 11:06 you know, and straying from it as unholy, 11:10 then we're going to do the same thing 11:11 ultimately with sexual abuse. 11:13 Yeah. 11:15 The only foundation really for us understanding 11:18 any kind of sexual sin in its true light 11:20 is understanding the holiness of sexuality, 11:23 and that God in sexuality created 11:26 a most holy place in a sense in human experience. 11:30 And if we don't have that grasp of the holiness 11:32 of God's plan for sexuality, 11:35 then we'll start to see sexual sin as no big deal. 11:37 Yeah. 11:38 And that will include same-sex relationships 11:41 and all of these other newer things 11:43 but also things that are old as the hills like sexual abuse. 11:47 Yeah. 11:48 It will be light, it will be soft on sin. 11:50 That's true. 11:51 It's like a gradual progression it's like saying, 11:53 you know, you go swimming, all right? 11:54 You go to a pool. 11:56 You stick your toe in, the water is cold, 11:58 then you actually get in slowly 12:01 but surely you're going down the steps, 12:02 you get into the water 12:04 and you stay in there for a little while, 12:06 the warmer it gets. 12:08 And it doesn't actually warm up. 12:09 No. It doesn't. 12:10 You just become accustomed to it. 12:12 Right, you're becoming used to that life of sin. 12:14 That's right. 12:15 And you could be like a frog in hot water 12:18 and the water gradually boils and the frog never jumps out 12:21 because it doesn't realize it's in boiling water. 12:23 And it says in the Bible, "Some save with fear, 12:27 pulling them out of the fire 12:29 and some show compassion making a difference." 12:31 And exactly, how we apply those principles, 12:34 two different approaches to people 12:37 that we're trying to help, 12:38 and how we actually apply that in the personal 12:41 is a work of the Holy Spirit. 12:43 The Holy Spirit has to illuminate God's word 12:45 and make clear to us 12:46 what we do in that particular situation. 12:49 Yeah. 12:50 But I want more of the love of Jesus 12:52 because I just feel like... 12:53 I feel like I need to reach out to the gay population 12:55 and tell them God loves you 12:58 because there have been a lot of church entities 13:00 that have given the opposite message, you know? 13:03 And you've seen it in the news too 13:04 where people are vociferous against gay people, 13:07 single them out, 13:08 it's so unlike Christ to do that. 13:10 And you know, God loves everyone, 13:12 you know, including homosexuals. 13:15 It's not that God doesn't love the individual, 13:19 He just doesn't love 13:21 what the individual may be doing the sin, 13:23 He doesn't like the sin. 13:25 It's like if you have a kid that is a murderer 13:28 or a drug dealer or whatever the case may be, 13:31 you still love the kids but you really don't... 13:34 You don't like what they're doing, you know? 13:37 And so it's the same thing. 13:39 That's right. 13:40 And you don't like what they're doing, 13:42 not just to other people but you don't like 13:43 what they're doing to themselves. 13:45 And a lot of time, if you will say to them, 13:47 "Look, I'm concerned for you and what this is doing to you 13:50 and that's where I'm coming from," 13:52 that may get through and they may be able to accept 13:54 what you're saying. 13:56 Yes. And this is a deep topic. 13:58 I know. 13:59 There's so much to discuss and we're out of time again. 14:02 How about that? 14:03 So where do they go to get resources? 14:06 They go to... 14:07 No, I'm sorry. IntimateClarity.tv. 14:09 I was thinking of my own program. 14:10 Okay. 14:12 Go to IntimateClarity.tv, 14:13 and make sure you join us next time 14:15 on Intimate Clarity. |
Revised 2018-10-15