Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180119A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality. 00:05 Parents are cautioned this presentation 00:07 may be too candid for younger audiences. 00:30 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. I'm Jason Bradley. 00:33 And I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer, 00:35 and she is a professional licensed counselor. 00:39 And today, we're going to be discussing a topic 00:41 that is sensitive in nature, 00:43 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:45 Jen, what are we going to be talking about? 00:47 We're going to be talking about intersex conditions. 00:51 Intersex. 00:53 What do you mean by intersex? 00:54 What do you think I mean? 00:55 You have no clue? 00:57 A hermaphrodite or what type of...? 00:58 That's a word that's sometimes used, sometimes. 01:00 Okay, okay. 01:01 So some people are born 01:04 with physical sexual abnormalities 01:08 or disorders of sexual development 01:09 is what they're called or DSDs. 01:12 And they're called intersex too 01:13 because the sex differentiation process 01:16 is interrupted. 01:17 Okay. 01:19 So let me give us a little background 01:20 in how we differentiate sexually in utero. 01:22 So each embryo begins with proto-gonads, 01:25 male or female. 01:27 And they develop into male or female gonads 01:30 about six to eight weeks in utero. 01:34 And this depends on whether 01:36 the differentiating chromosome is XX or XY. 01:39 In other words, it just depends on if they have 01:42 female chromosomes or male chromosomes. 01:45 A gene on the Y chromosome which is called the SRY gene 01:50 turns the gonads which both have into testes. 01:53 Okay. 01:55 And then those testes secrete testosterone 01:57 and that masculinizes the fetus. 02:01 Without the SRY gene, the gonads become ovaries 02:05 and secrete estrogen, and the fetus is feminized. 02:08 Okay. 02:10 So the SRY gene can be missing or dysfunctional, 02:14 leading to problems 02:15 such as the female embryo developing male anatomy. 02:19 It happens. 02:21 There's another condition called 02:22 complete androgen insensitivity syndrome or CAIS. 02:26 What is that? 02:28 Where male genitalia never develop. 02:29 Okay. 02:31 There's another intersex condition. 02:33 It only occurs in the Dominican Republic. 02:36 And a child appears to be female, 02:38 but at 12 years old, 02:39 they'll develop male anatomy, yeah. 02:43 It only occurs in the Dominican... 02:45 Well, it tends... Yeah. 02:47 I think that's pretty much where they've found it 02:49 and I think that's... 02:50 Yeah. 02:52 I don't think they have any examples of it 02:53 outside of the DR. 02:54 And so it could be related to something environmental, 02:56 we don't know. 02:57 But let me say this, that these conditions, 02:59 even though they're tragic and difficult to cope with, 03:01 they're quite rare. 03:04 Now there is a battle going on in the research circles 03:07 about how rare they are because you can see 03:10 where a certain politically charged group 03:14 would want to inflate 03:16 the numbers of intersex individuals 03:18 in order to argue for other different things 03:24 like transgenderism, for instance. 03:26 So you can see where there would be 03:28 some incentive there. 03:30 So there's a little bit of a battle going on. 03:33 A recent paper said that the intersex population 03:36 was as high as 1.7% of all births, 03:41 almost 2%, this paper said. 03:44 But then another paper came along and basically said, 03:48 "You're defining intersex too broadly." 03:51 And I'm going to quote from that paper, they said, 03:54 "If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, 03:58 the term should be restricted to those conditions 04:01 in which chromosomal sex 04:04 is inconsistent with phenotypic sex." 04:06 In other words, 04:07 your male chromosome's female parts. 04:09 Okay. 04:10 Or in which the phenotype is not classifiable 04:13 as either male or female 04:14 which we just called a hermaphrodite, 04:16 it's the old term used for it. 04:17 Okay. 04:18 So those are the two conditions in which we should truly call 04:20 a person intersex. 04:22 Applying this more precise definition, 04:24 the true prevalence of intersex 04:26 is seen to be about 0.018%. 04:31 0.018%? 04:33 Very small percent. 04:34 Wow! 04:35 And that's one in 5,000, 04:38 I think if I did the math right. 04:39 So it's a very few people. Wow! 04:41 This makes me think of what Jesus said. 04:44 Jesus said in Matthew 19:12, 04:46 "For there are eunuchs who were born that way, 04:48 and there are eunuchs 04:49 who have been made eunuchs by others, 04:51 and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs 04:52 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. 04:54 The one who can accept this should accept it. 04:58 So basically what he's saying is some people, 05:00 at least in the beginning part of that passage, 05:03 some people are born sexually broken. 05:05 And that is true of this intersex population. 05:09 So let's talk a little bit about this and how we, 05:12 as church members, need to respond 05:14 to this situation where people are born different 05:18 and when the differentiation process 05:20 does not come off as planned, so to speak. 05:26 How do we treat those people? 05:28 Well, you talk to them, you get to know them 05:30 without judging them. 05:32 You know, the Bible says, 05:33 "Man will judge on the outward appearance." 05:34 That's right. 05:36 "But God looks at the heart." 05:37 That's right. 05:39 So you have to talk to that person 05:40 and figure out what's going on 05:41 because outwardly, like, looking in, 05:44 you might think that they made the choice 05:47 to have whatever change... 05:49 Yeah, and I can see someone like that 05:51 coming to church 05:52 and doing the very best they can 05:53 with their circumstances, 05:55 and they hear a sermon against LGBTQ. 06:00 And so it really doesn't serve us well 06:02 in ministry to others to become overly politicized 06:04 about these issues in a church context. 06:07 I'm not saying we shouldn't vote appropriately 06:08 according to our conscience, but in a church context, 06:11 we need to be very careful 06:13 about being so politically driven 06:14 that we become insensitive to the brokenness 06:17 that people are dealing with. 06:19 You see what I'm saying? 06:20 Because the reality is there's politics 06:22 on the other side too. 06:23 There are people pushing, 06:24 you know, trying to inflate the numbers of intersex people, 06:28 trying to say this is just another example of the fact 06:30 that sexuality is fluid, nothing matters, you know? 06:32 And so there's a political agenda on the left, 06:34 there's also one on the right. 06:36 We need to divest ourselves of both of those things. 06:39 And when we work with these people 06:40 that are dealing with the intense brokenness, 06:43 we need to put ourselves in their place 06:45 and feel what it would be like to be them. 06:48 You know what I'm saying? 06:49 Yeah, show some compassion. 06:51 That's right, that's right. 06:52 I want to clarify. 06:54 I will return to that point, 06:55 but I want to clarify that intersex 06:58 is vastly different from transgenderism. 07:02 Break that down. Yeah. 07:04 Well, I can't write it down right now 07:06 but write it down at home. 07:07 No, no. Break, break, break that down. 07:08 Oh, break it down. 07:10 I thought you said write it down. 07:11 No, no, no, no. Break it down. 07:12 Well, intersex involves actual physical abnormalities, 07:17 interruptions or things going wrong 07:19 in the differentiation process. 07:21 So it's a physical problem. 07:22 And that person is born in many cases 07:24 neither male nor female. 07:27 Now what they used to do 07:28 is they'd do the best they could 07:30 to guess which sex they were 07:32 and then they would do some surgery 07:33 to kind of make them into that sex. 07:35 What they're doing now is 07:37 they're leaving them as is 07:38 until they can come to the age of accountability 07:40 and letting them make up their own mind 07:42 because, you know, 07:43 we're doing more of that kind of thing 07:45 anyway these days. 07:46 So they're giving more time to that individual 07:48 but that means that individual has to grow up 07:49 as neither male nor female. 07:52 And that's hard on a person. 07:54 That's socially difficult 07:56 because we're used to seeing people 07:57 in this binary way. 07:59 And so I'm sounding a little bit 08:00 like, you know, a politically correct person 08:02 but we have to be sensitive to this. 08:04 And then it seems like 08:05 there's a lot of years of confusion there 08:08 in that instance. 08:09 That's right. 08:11 And so that individual's dealing with physical odds. 08:13 But what's happening in transgenderism 08:15 is that individual 08:17 is perfectly differentiated physically in most cases. 08:19 They're either male or female 08:21 but they identify with the opposite sex. 08:24 So it's a psychological disorder 08:26 not a physiological disorder. 08:28 And they really shouldn't be classed the same. 08:31 That's really not accurate. 08:33 And so I'm just saying that these intersex individuals, 08:36 though I want to kind of return to that central point 08:38 that these intersex individuals really give us a compassion 08:41 for what some people are dealing with 08:43 on a psychological level. 08:45 People that are struggling with transgenderism 08:46 are really hurting. 08:48 People that are dealing with same sex attraction 08:50 are really hurting. 08:51 And often, they're hurting in the context of church 08:55 because they know what the Word of God says 08:58 and they know what church culture is like 09:00 and they know how holy God is. 09:02 And oftentimes, they can feel like, you know, 09:05 "I'm broken and God made me defective. 09:09 There's something wrong with me, 09:11 I'm different than everyone else." 09:13 We need to be very sensitive to that, 09:15 whether they'd be intersex or transgender 09:18 or same-sex attracted, we need to have 09:20 long compassion for them because just like 09:22 you could have a physical abnormality, 09:24 you can have psychological abnormalities. 09:27 So again, I don't question the problem. 09:29 I don't deny the problem. 09:31 I just question the solution that people are, 09:34 you know, going to, to try to resolve the problem. 09:37 Yeah, yeah, just... 09:39 It's like not dealing with the root cause 09:42 but just masking the symptoms. 09:45 So what would you say to a person, 09:47 an intersex person that came to church? 09:49 I'm kind of interested 09:50 in what your thoughts are on that. 09:52 You know, you're in a church context, 09:53 someone comes in 09:54 and they kind of look like they're kind of male 09:56 but maybe not and it's kind of confusing. 09:58 We don't realize how disturbing that is for us 10:00 because, you know, we live in a binary world. 10:02 Honestly, I'd be confused. 10:04 I don't know. 10:05 It's tough for me to sit here 10:07 and say like exactly how I would react, 10:10 just to be honest. 10:11 But I would be a little confused, 10:13 I'd probably... 10:14 I would speak, I'd say, 10:16 "Hello, welcome to, you know, our church." 10:19 And ask them where they're from 10:21 and stuff like that in my conversation. 10:24 But I don't know how I would react 10:27 in that situation. 10:28 What do you think Jesus would do? 10:29 I think that He would love them. 10:31 I think that He would go and He would talk to them 10:33 and get to know them. 10:35 You know, when we look at the life of Christ, 10:37 He met people, 10:39 He talked to them, 10:41 He established a relationship, 10:43 determined what their needs were 10:45 and He met those needs. 10:46 You know, when I was in my internship for counseling, 10:49 they would give me all of the clients 10:51 that nobody else wanted. 10:52 And you know, 10:54 I didn't get paid for it or anything. 10:56 So they'd give me the people that couldn't pay. 10:58 And they referred someone to me named Baby. 11:01 And he was a transgender man. 11:02 He was trying to become a female. 11:04 And he hadn't had any surgery or anything. 11:07 I don't think he had any money. 11:09 And he also couldn't hear well and speak well. 11:12 So it was very challenging to sit 11:13 through counseling sessions with him. 11:16 And he would want to pose with me 11:17 in front of the building and stuff. 11:19 He was always, you know, kind of flamboyant personality, 11:20 who want to put on a show all the time. 11:22 The staff at the counseling office 11:25 would make fun of him, 11:27 but I would see a child of God across from me. 11:29 And so I started to ask him, 11:31 you know, "What was your childhood like?" 11:32 And it turned out that that boy 11:35 had no supervision, no real parenting, 11:37 and just basically grew up in New York City. 11:39 Yeah. And ran the streets. 11:41 He was basically a street urchin. 11:43 And he just ran the streets and fended for himself 11:46 from the time he was a child. 11:47 And every once a while, Baby would say to me... 11:49 You know, he had a speech impediment, 11:51 so he would want to say, 11:52 "I want to be a responsible person." 11:54 Like, he wanted to be mature. 11:55 He didn't want to be... 11:57 And his life was a disaster to be honest. 12:00 But he would say, "I want to be reponsible. 12:02 I want to be Repon..." 12:03 Because he couldn't hear himself. 12:04 Yeah. 12:06 "I want to be reponsible, Jennifer, 12:07 I want to be reponsible." 12:09 And I would just say, you know, "Baby, God hears you. 12:11 And God knows that you want to change. 12:12 And He loves you just the way you are." 12:14 And to come to that place 12:16 where we're willing to deal with our own, 12:18 you know, kind of freak out kind of mechanism 12:21 and just put our arms around people and say, 12:23 "God loves you just the way you are right now. 12:26 And Jesus has a way forward for you. 12:28 I don't know exactly what it is but I think you can do it. 12:31 And I know that He'll hold your hand through it." 12:34 That's Christianity. 12:35 Yeah. That's what it really is. 12:37 And a lot of times, the challenging part for me 12:39 is because I've been persecuted by militant. 12:43 A certain church I was involved in, 12:44 there was a man who was a very militant gay man. 12:47 And he would attack me on social media 12:49 and he'd make it very uncomfortable for me 12:51 to go to that church. 12:53 It was a hard experience for me. 12:56 And he was actively recruiting, 12:57 you know, he was not a wholesome influence 13:00 but there was a wounded person inside there. 13:04 That's when it's the hardest to love people 13:06 and surround them is when they're militant. 13:07 And sometimes, we have to have healthy boundaries 13:10 for those individuals, you know? 13:11 Yes, yes. 13:12 But what would Jesus do? 13:14 He would see beyond that anger 13:15 and he'd put His arms around them 13:17 and do all He could to melt away that anger 13:19 and get to the core of who they were. 13:21 Yeah. And I think... 13:22 I really think that just like God is calling us 13:24 to a high-moral standard, 13:25 he's calling those that for whom a high-moral standard 13:29 comes a little more naturally to have a high standard of love 13:34 for the LGBTQ population community. 13:38 We need to love them as Jesus loves them. 13:39 What would Jesus do? 13:41 He'd put His arms around them 13:43 and help them find a way forward, 13:44 give them something better. 13:45 Yeah. 13:47 And show them that they can gain the victory. 13:48 That's right. Absolutely, absolutely. 13:50 Well said. 13:52 You know, as we discuss this sensitive topic, 13:56 I feel like this is definitely something that 13:59 people at home need to know more about. 14:02 More information about, yeah. 14:04 They need more information on it. 14:05 So you know, if you're at home 14:07 and you want some more information, 14:10 please visit IntimateClarity.tv. 14:14 We've run out of time, 14:16 and we hope that you will join us next time 14:19 on Intimate Clarity. 14:20 God bless you. |
Revised 2018-10-15