Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180124A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality. 00:05 Parents are cautioned this presentation 00:07 may be too candid for younger audiences. 00:29 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. 00:31 I'm Jason Bradley and I am here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer, 00:34 and she is a licensed professional counselor. 00:36 And today we're going to be discussing 00:38 a very sensitive topic 00:40 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:42 Jen, how... 00:44 It's a conversation you need to have. 00:45 Yo. 00:47 We're going to have this conversation today. 00:49 How does a marriage recover from adultery? 00:52 And can it even do? 00:53 Yeah, is that even possible? Yeah. 00:55 In my case if it happened, I don't feel it's possible 00:59 but I'm not married right now. 01:00 That's right. 01:02 But, you know, in my thinking at this very moment for me now. 01:05 You're coming into the convo with a little bit of baggage 01:07 and a little bit of bias and you just think 01:10 if that happened in my marriage, it'll be over. 01:12 Yes. 01:13 And you know, you're allowed, 01:15 I mean, we're permitted to divorce 01:17 but let's say, 01:19 people don't want to go that route, 01:21 what can they do in that case? 01:23 So Jesus and Moses 01:25 cited only adultery as grounds for divorce. 01:27 We've had other discussions 01:29 about if there are any other grounds, 01:31 kind of the conventional wisdom is, 01:33 if it's any of the three A's adultery, abandonment or abuse, 01:37 then divorce is permissible biblically, 01:39 some people don't believe that 01:41 but they believe it's just adultery. 01:43 Jesus said that, Moses said it. 01:46 So that's kind of where I land 01:48 but I realize there are different views. 01:51 Disclaimer here, if there's abuse going on, 01:54 separate, we all agree about that. 01:57 So at any rate when Jesus said, it's only adultery, 02:02 He was obviously saying 02:04 that adultery was a serious assault 02:06 on that relationship 02:08 if it's the only grounds 02:09 and if it's in His thinking 02:10 worse than abuse perhaps potentially, 02:13 like that's a serious assault. 02:15 You kind of wonder why? 02:16 And I think it's the very reason 02:18 that you're kind of bringing out in your view 02:20 and that is that the trust is so completely destroyed 02:24 as a result of that adultery. 02:27 But even then He encouraged forgiveness. 02:29 So let's look at the verse itself, 02:32 chapter says, I'm sorry, this is Matthew 19:8. 02:37 "Jesus said, 'Moses permitted you 02:39 to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. 02:42 But it was not this way from the beginning. 02:47 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, 02:49 except for sexual immorality, 02:50 and marries another woman commits adultery.'" 02:53 Very strong words there. Absolutely. 02:54 So he said, 02:56 "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives 02:58 because your hearts were hard." 03:01 So apparently it's not an ideal situation 03:03 'cause God doesn't want our hearts to be hard. 03:05 And Jen... 03:07 I'm not trying to be hard on you. 03:08 No, no. 03:09 What I was going to say was, adultery is a hard situation. 03:12 That's true. Yeah, you're right. 03:14 The hardness of heart could be on the other person's part too. 03:16 Could be the person that cheated, 03:18 they're like, I'm not even sorry, you know. 03:19 It's all your fault or whatever. 03:21 So, you know, we don't know exactly what that means. 03:23 But let's just say for instance that God has led a person 03:28 and there are reasons, you can see 03:29 where if you're in a marriage for many years 03:31 and it's been basically happy and you have children 03:34 and there's just a whole kind of 03:35 commitment going on there 03:37 that it would be hard to leave that relationship, 03:39 harder than the situation where it's just two people. 03:42 So let's talk about adultery recovery. 03:45 I would put it this way, 03:46 it's possible but it's difficult. 03:49 Okay. 03:50 Number one, first and foremost, 03:51 there needs to be clear deep repentance 03:54 on the part of the person that cheated. 03:57 And we're really clear on this that the Bible teaches 04:00 that repentance is a gift, 04:01 it's not something you can manufacture, 04:03 something you can conjure up within yourself. 04:06 It's something that God gives you 04:08 but you have to be willing to receive it. 04:11 And so that's essential 04:12 because what the repentance does 04:15 is it cuts at the root 04:16 of the person's obsession with sin 04:19 or the person's addiction to that sin. 04:21 You know, John the Baptist said that the axe is laid 04:24 to the root of the tree. 04:26 He was calling the people to repentance, 04:28 that was his ministry. 04:29 He says the axe is laid to the root of the tree. 04:31 You get a sense that repentance cuts you off 04:35 from the sort of the tributary of sin into your life. 04:39 And so that repentance is just essential 04:42 and that person will manifest fruits of repentance. 04:46 Lot of times when I deal with abuse cases I'll get this, 04:49 well, how do you know if they've repented or not. 04:51 Well, Jesus said there are fruits of repentance 04:53 and when you go buy an apple tree, 04:55 you know, you see the fruit on the apple tree 04:58 or you at least see the little buds 05:00 that's going to become the fruit, 05:01 it's just suitable to individuals on the outside 05:06 that fruit of repentance. 05:07 So the spouse of the person will be able to see 05:11 the fruits of repentance. 05:13 They're going to admit they're wrong without excuses. 05:17 There may have been some provocations 05:20 on the part of the grieved spouse 05:23 that a spouse that did not cheat, 05:25 they may have made home life miserable 05:27 but never under any circumstances 05:30 is adultery a good idea, 05:33 never is an appropriate response, 05:36 never is it justifiable. 05:37 So that individual needs to take responsibility, 05:40 admit what they did without excuses. 05:44 However I do not recommend a detailed description 05:47 of what went on. 05:48 And what I find is sometimes the grieved spouse 05:50 is obsessed with what happened 05:52 and they'll start asking for details 05:54 and they'll require that, 05:56 let me just say this upfront that it's very important 05:58 that a couple that's been through adultery 06:00 have a counselor 06:02 because that is another pair of eyes 06:03 on the situation 06:04 that will help you avoid those pitfalls. 06:06 For instance the cheater having to tell in detail 06:11 the grieved spouse what went on in the relationship 06:14 which ends up being more destructive than helpful. 06:16 So those are some things that a counselor 06:18 can help you with. 06:19 And then you need to be willing to hear 06:21 the pain of the grieved spouse 06:24 and you may need to hear that pain 06:26 and empathize with that pain for longer 06:28 than you think is necessary, 06:30 but that well is very deep, and that blow is very severe, 06:34 and the trust is very shattered. 06:36 And so you need to hear the pain 06:39 that you caused in that person's life. 06:42 And hearing that pain and empathizing 06:44 with that pain is foundational to never repeating that again 06:47 because you start to feel what they feel 06:50 and then you develop an aversion to the very sin 06:52 that was once attractive to you. 06:55 So you need to be willing to hear the pain 06:56 of your spouse. 06:58 I think that what people are going through recovery 07:00 from any sexual sin, 07:02 they need to bow out of spiritual responsibilities. 07:06 I'm pretty strong on that. 07:08 I think if someone violates their congregant 07:11 has an "affair" with the congregant 07:13 like a pastor or someone of spiritual authority. 07:15 When it's done, I think they're finished 07:18 and they no longer have the privilege 07:20 of being in spiritual leadership 07:21 but say it's a consensual affair 07:23 and that person may be a deacon or a Sabbath school teacher. 07:27 I would recommend you back out of those responsibilities 07:29 just so that you can focus everything 07:31 on repairing that situation and that relationship. 07:35 And I would say 07:36 also there's with spiritual leadership 07:39 sometimes a denial factor 07:40 where you think you're more together 07:42 than you really are 07:43 because you're presenting as together. 07:45 And this can help backing out of those things 07:47 can help break that spell so to speak. 07:51 A lot of times the grieved spouse 07:53 will try to police the other spouse 07:57 as the one that cheated 07:58 as they try to rebuild trust, 08:01 that's not a good idea. 08:03 We talked about this before. Yes. 08:05 You said the reason you wouldn't want to try 08:06 to repair a marriage in which there had been adultery 08:09 is because you just wouldn't be able to reinstate trust. 08:12 Yeah, once trust is broken, it's very hard to rebuild. 08:16 You know, it's hard and then if, 08:18 let's say, the person who cheated 08:23 then the person who he cheated on, 08:27 if she, he or she is bringing it up constantly, 08:32 you know, years down the road then it's... 08:36 That's not going to work. 08:37 It distrusts the relationship. Yeah. 08:39 And the person who was cheated on 08:40 if they don't have that trust, you can't trust... 08:44 But I have seen it 08:45 where people really do get past it. 08:48 I think it's possible, I do. 08:50 I agree with you. Yeah. 08:51 I think it's possible, it's just not for me, you know. 08:56 Well, we have to go there. 08:57 So maybe a counseling session or something. 08:58 That's good. 09:00 But you know what I'm saying like, 09:01 it's possible to do this 09:02 but what I recommend is rather than the grieved spouse 09:05 policing the spouse that cheated, 09:09 the spouse that cheated is the one 09:11 that volunteers the information the grieved spouse needs 09:16 to reinstate trust 'cause there's going to be 09:17 a period of time where you don't know 09:20 if you can trust them again. 09:21 Yeah, yeah. 09:23 And so there has to be that period of time 09:24 where you're just extra, extra accountable. 09:25 So I was working with one couple, 09:27 and there had been strip clubs involved 09:29 and the wife was tempted to police him, 09:34 where are you driving, 09:35 how are you getting to work in this type of thing. 09:37 And instead what he did was he said, 09:39 "I had to go around the long way. 09:41 I didn't even want to go by it. 09:42 But then the next day I had to drive right by 09:44 because the road was blocked off. 09:45 But I want you to know that, honey, that I did that. 09:48 And then here's my phone I want you... 09:49 And here's my password. 09:51 I want you to be able to look at my phone 09:52 anytime you want to." 09:53 So he's volunteering this stuff rather than withholding it 09:56 and her policing him. 09:57 Very, very important 09:59 that you kind of switch that process. 10:00 So some of the accountability measures 10:03 that are extra important are number one, 10:05 the cheating spouse 10:07 needs to cut off that relationship completely 10:10 or cut the supply line if it happens to be, 10:13 you know, pornography or whatever it is. 10:15 They need to make a clean break with that. 10:17 They need a computer filter if porn is involved. 10:20 The couple needs individual and marriage counseling. 10:24 So you need both, 10:25 you need someone to talk to that individual who cheated 10:28 and help them restore and help them recover 10:30 and of the individual who was cheated on 10:32 needs a counselor 10:34 and they need marriage counseling. 10:35 You're thinking, 10:37 "Man, I can see the counseling bills just. 10:38 And it is expensive." But you know what? 10:39 How can you put a price tag on a marriage? 10:41 If you really want to fix this marriage 10:43 then be willing to make the sacrifice, 10:45 take out a loan or whatever you have to do. 10:47 I recommend to the individual who cheated a support group. 10:51 We like Celebrate Recovery 10:52 because they're available everywhere, 10:53 it's a Christian based, biblically based support group. 10:56 But whatever you can find locally 10:58 that will help people 10:59 in recovery from sexual addiction 11:01 or any kind of, 11:03 if you can find one that's just for adultery recovery, great. 11:06 But if you can't, usually a sexual addiction group 11:08 will address the same issues. 11:10 And I recommend that the cheating partner 11:12 have an accountability partner, 11:15 someone that they can talk to about these things. 11:17 So do you see a little more possibility 11:20 of how it could work? 11:21 Preferably of the same sex. 11:22 Oh, definitely. 11:24 Then you're running into another issue. 11:25 That's right. 11:27 That's particularly when you're young. 11:28 Yes. 11:30 You know, the Bible says, Ephesians 4:32, 11:32 "Be kind one to another, tenderhearted, 11:35 forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake 11:38 has forgiven you." 11:40 And that tenderhearted, kindness toward one another 11:43 really comes into play 11:45 typically when if an individual is truly repentant. 11:49 And they have strayed and they're truly repentant, 11:51 they're overwhelmed with shame at times. 11:54 And they hate themselves. 11:55 And tender kindness and forgiveness 11:57 from their spouse can mean so much. 11:59 You know, I'll say this too that. 12:02 Sometimes we carry around 12:05 a big bag of self-righteousness. 12:07 And we can be difficult to be around, 12:10 difficult to love when we're self righteous. 12:13 Sometimes making a concrete mistake 12:16 can really be the wake-up call we need. 12:19 Humbling experience. 12:20 Yeah, can be this humbling experience 12:22 that can make us so much more godly spouse 12:23 in the long run. 12:25 So I think there is life after adultery. 12:27 But I need to clarify that forgiveness 12:29 and trust are not the same thing. 12:32 You may choose to forgive your cheating spouse 12:35 but you may not choose to continue 12:37 in the relationship with them. 12:39 And you have biblical grounds, it's okay you can opt out. 12:42 But trust is kind of built on top of forgiveness. 12:46 So if there's that foundation of forgiveness 12:47 and if your relationship is salvageable, 12:50 it may be that you can rebuild the trust. 12:53 I'm with the forgiveness aspect, 12:55 like I definitely support that the forgiveness 12:58 is just the continuing down the road and allow... 13:01 With our relationships. 13:02 Yes. Yes. Yeah. 13:04 Rebuilding. 13:05 Forgiveness is a given. We forgive everyone. 13:07 We don't live in bitterness and resentment 13:10 toward people that have hurt us. 13:12 However do we want to continue in that relationship 13:14 is the question? 13:16 And that is a question a person needs to answer 13:18 with a lot of variables and in prayer with the Lord, 13:22 and seeking His will in their lives, 13:23 and asking Him to, 13:25 you know, mould their hearts to be like His heart. 13:28 And you know, I'll pray for you. 13:30 Yeah, thank you. 13:31 But I'm sure you're just the most forgiving guy, 13:34 but this is obviously a difficult area for you. 13:37 I am very forgiving. 13:38 You know, I am a very forgiving person. 13:40 I've been forgiven in a lot of things, you know. 13:42 God has forgiven me in a lot of things. 13:44 And so I am a forgiving person, 13:46 it's just a matter of continuing that. 13:48 And it is the ultimate challenge 13:51 for a marriage to get past that, 13:52 it is the ultimate challenge. 13:54 It's very, very difficult. 13:56 And I continue to check in with, 13:58 you know, clients that I'm working with, 13:59 do you want to work past this 14:01 because you can, you can end your relationship 14:03 if you want to. 14:05 You have to be fully engaged. 14:06 It's a deep and very interesting topic there. 14:09 Our time is just about up. 14:11 But if you want some more information, 14:13 more resources, visit intimate clarity.tv. 14:17 And we hope to see you on the next episode. 14:20 God bless. |
Revised 2018-11-05