Participants: John Bradshaw (Host), Mike Tucker
Series Code: IIW
Program Code: IIW001449A
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01:29 [Music]
01:40 [Music] 01:50 JB: This is It Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw. 01:52 Thanks for joining me. We both know that there are some things 01:55 in life that we are going to experience no matter what. 01:58 And some of those experiences we wouldn't choose to experience 02:02 if we had a choice. But many of them, we don't have a choice. 02:05 One of them is grief. Grief hurts, it's painful, and you're 02:12 going to experience sooner or later. That's just the way life 02:16 goes. But what is grief, and how do we deal with grief, and what 02:20 should a person do --what could a person do, when grief strikes 02:24 close to home? Well, I'm blessed to have with me in the studio 02:27 today a good friend, Mike Tucker. Pastor Mike Tucker who's 02:31 the speaker and director of Faith for Today, a Christian 02:34 ministry. You may well have seen Pastor Tucker hosting Lifestyle 02:38 Magazine or leading out in one of his "Mad About Marriage" 02:42 Seminars. Mike Tucker, thanks for joining me today. 02:44 Mike Tucker: It is a joy to be here with you, John. Thank you. 02:47 JB: I'm going to start at the beginning. What's grief? 02:50 How do we define that? 02:51 MT: Grief is an emotional, psychological, physical reaction 02:55 to any experience of loss. It can be loss through death, loss 02:59 of a job, loss of a body part --anything else in your life 03:02 that is significant, there may be a grief response to it. 03:06 JB: Now, one of the reasons I'm speaking with you is because 03:08 you're a trained counselor. MT: Um-hmm. JB: A licensed marriage 03:12 therapist, family expert. And you have some experience with 03:16 grief as well, and we're going to talk about that in just a 03:18 moment. Grief is just one of those things that everybody is 03:22 going to experience. MT: Everyone. You don't get out of 03:24 life without grief. And most of your viewers have already had 03:28 some experience with grief. To what degree? That varies 03:32 according to life experiences. But everyone gets it. Everyone 03:35 has it. Some people think that Christians shouldn't grieve. 03:38 That's just a misnomer. You have to grieve. Everyone grieves. 03:41 JB: Now, there are certain things that you might ought 03:43 to do when grief comes. MT: Yeah. JB: We'll talk about 03:45 those soon. MT: Sure. JB: So before we explain it. 03:49 There's probably ways you can equip yourself 03:50 to deal with grief before it comes. MT: Um-hmm. 03:53 JB: Okay. MT: Yeah, especially if you see a loss 03:56 coming, you can engage in what we call anticipatory grief: 03:59 being willing to go ahead and experience those tears, and 04:02 trying to anticipate what life will be like without them. But I 04:05 think beyond that is a matter of keeping relationships healthy, 04:09 and keeping yourself personally health: physically fit, with 04:12 positive relationships and a positive faith. But having an 04:16 appropriate picture of the nature of God, his personality, 04:19 his character --what he has promised you, what he has not 04:22 promised you --will actually help prepare you for grief. 04:25 JB: Okay, now, so you can grieve about different things. MT: Yeah 04:27 JB: I could, I could lose a cherished possession. MT: Yes. 04:31 JB: I can grieve that. MT: Um-hmm. JB: Okay, what are the 04:35 inappropriate ways to deal with grief? What are the grief 04:38 mistakes that people often make? MT: Some people try to stuff it 04:42 or ignore it, act like it's not there. They will deny it. Other 04:47 people will try to out-medicate it, out-drink it, something of 04:52 that nature. Some people will try to outwork it. They just 04:55 won't give expression to the pain by crying. They won't allow 04:59 themselves to do those things. Those are all inappropriate 05:01 ways. Another inappropriate way would be to build a shrine to, 05:05 to that which is lost. You know, sometimes people build a shrine 05:09 in their home to a person who's died, and for years on, no one 05:13 can touch that. You know, to do something like that temporarily 05:15 may be understandable. But when you do this and it lasts for 05:19 years, that can be another inappropriate way to deal with 05:22 it. But just a refusal to deal with the pain, to give 05:25 expression through tears, through talking --those are all 05:28 inappropriate responses. JB: As a pastor I speak from time to 05:30 time with people who will tell me, "Oh, I'm doing fine." 05:33 MT: Yeah. JB: Or, or they'll tell me, "I'm not doing 05:36 fine." I'll dig a little deeper and... MT: Um-hmm. 05:38 JB: ...you know, "It's been six weeks since my loved one died, 05:41 and I find myself still weeping, and I just wish I was...." 05:45 That's just not realistic, is it? 05:46 MT: No, it's not. The average recovery time for a 05:48 significant loss is one to two years, although you can grieve 05:51 actively for up to five years and not be pathological with 05:54 that grief. And even when we talk about recovery, that 05:57 doesn't mean that you won't ever cry again. It doesn't mean you 05:59 won't miss that person again. That will be a part of your 06:02 experience for the rest of your life, especially with a 06:05 significant loss. But it may mean that you come to the point 06:08 where it's not the first thing on your mind every morning when 06:10 you wake up, and the last thing you think about before you go to 06:12 bed, when you finally get to that point of recovery, so that 06:16 you can function more normally. JB: I think it's important for 06:18 people to know what's normal... MT: Yeah. JB: ...what's 06:20 acceptable, so that they don't think they have a problem they 06:23 don't have. I remember asking my wife's grandmother --Grandma was 06:30 around 80 at the time, and I discovered that she'd had a baby 06:35 girl. She raised three or four boys. I should know whether it's 06:38 three or four, shouldn't I? MT: [Laughs] JB: And she gave birth 06:42 to a little girl who died very, very young, as an infant. And so 06:46 this loss that she'd experience had been about 60 years before, 06:51 55 to 60 years before. And I said to her, "Grandma, you had a 06:56 daughter. I never knew that." And she said, "Yes, I -" and 07:01 just from out of nowhere, her voice choked and tears came. 07:04 MT: Yeah, yes. JB: Fifty-five to sixty years later, she was 07:07 grieving a loss. MT: Um-hmm. JB: That's normal, isn't it? 07:10 MT: Yes, it is normal. There's nothing wrong with that. Because 07:13 this is an impactful experience for your life. You never get 07:17 over, truly, the loss. You, you may be more comfortable with it; 07:21 you may be able to function again. But you may have tears 07:24 over this loss for the rest of your life. JB: Let's say 07:26 somebody is a secretary working in an office situation. MT: Yeah 07:29 JB: Well, it doesn't have to be a secretary. It could be a 07:31 departmental director. Or a guy works in a factory. 07:34 MT: Uh-huh. JB: So you're surrounded by 07:36 people. You've got to go back to life. You're putting in your 07:39 eight to ten hours a day. MT: Um-hmm. 07:40 JB: But grief is just all over you, and grief begs expression. 07:48 What's the right thing for people to do? 07:49 MT: Well, the right thing for you to do if you're the person 07:52 experiencing this is to recognize that your tears are 07:54 going to come, and that's okay. And when they come, don't make 07:57 an apology for them. Just allow it to happen. And if the people 08:00 around you are savvy and they are, they are understanding, 08:04 then they're going to accept that, and it's going to be 08:06 normal. So I would say, make sure that you give yourself 08:10 ample room for, for mistakes. You make sure you double-check 08:13 your work. Take frequent breaks if possible. Um, and then don't 08:18 be afraid to give expression to the pain. Don't be afraid to 08:20 cry, and don't be afraid to tell the stories, because that's all 08:24 a part of the process. JB: So, to experience grief and to 08:28 internalize grief, to express grief, is all appropriate and, 08:32 and fine. MT: It is. JB: But when's a person going too far? 08:36 I know, this may, it's going to differ from person to person. 08:40 MT: It will. JB: And, uh, you get the very unthinking people 08:44 who say, "Are you not over that already? It's been six months." 08:47 MT: Yeah. JB: That's the last thing you want to say to a 08:49 person. When is expressing grief become --when does that become 08:53 too much? MT: To give a timeline or a specific answer to that is 08:56 difficult. But there comes a time when grief no longer 08:59 becomes an expression of your pain, but becomes a monument to 09:02 self-pity. Sometimes we can like the negative attention we get 09:06 from the expression of pain. And again, that may not happen the 09:09 first year. It may not happen until after that. But there 09:13 comes a time when you realize that you, you're doing nothing 09:16 but grieving. And you're telling the stories; you're crying with 09:19 every event. Everything becomes about your loss. That becomes 09:22 very selfish and it becomes rather myopic. And so, to learn 09:26 that there are appropriate times to give expression to this, and 09:28 there comes the time when you actually have to say goodbye to 09:32 the relationship that used to be, and withdraw that emotional 09:35 energy, and no longer make this a monument to you and to your 09:39 self-pity, but, instead, begin to celebrate the life that was, 09:42 and celebrate the things that you had. Again, that's going to 09:46 vary for every person, but there does come a time when it's 09:48 appropriate to do that. JB: Now, you're speaking to this 09:51 subject... MT: Yes. JB: ...from first-hand experience. 09:54 MT: Absolutely. JB: We're going to talk about that in just a 09:56 moment. More with Pastor Mike Tucker and grief when we 10:00 come back. Don't go away. 10:08 Grief. Sadly, it's an inevitable part of life. There's no 10:12 escaping loss in this world and the pain that comes along 10:15 with it. Grief can be disabling, intense and debilitating. So 10:19 make sure you get your free copy of "Coping with Grief" by 10:21 John Bradshaw. There is a way through life's 10:24 toughest times. Learn how you or someone you care about can cope 10:28 with grief. Discover principles that will show you how to return 10:31 to a life full of joy and hope. Please, don't let grief be any 10:36 more difficult than it has to be. When the burdens of loss 10:39 seem to be more than you can handle, there is a way you can 10:41 cope with grief. To receive the book "Coping with Grief," call 10:45 right now 1-800-253-3000. There's absolutely no cost or 10:50 obligation, and our lines are open 24 hours a day. If the 10:53 lines are busy, please try again. We'll send 10:57 "Coping with Grief" free to any address in North America. Call 11:00 1-800-253-3000, or you can write to us at It Is Written, 11:05 P O Box 6, Chattanooga,TN, 37401. To download a free 11:10 electronic version of "Coping with Grief," please visit us 11:13 online at ItIsWritten.com. To get your free copy of 11:18 "Coping with Grief," call right now, 1-800-253-3000. 11:22 JB: It Is Written is a faith - based ministry, and your 11:26 support makes it possible for us to share God's good news with 11:29 the world. Your tax-deductible gift can be sent to the address 11:33 on your screen, or through our website at ItIsWritten.com. 11:37 Thank you for your continued prayerful support. 11:40 [Music] 11:43 JB: This is It Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw. Thanks for 11:46 joining me today. My guest is Pastor Mike Tucker from 11:49 Faith for Today. Mike, we've been talking for a few moments 11:52 about grief. We alluded to your personal experience with grief. 11:56 MT: Um-hmm. JB: Tell me more about that. 11:57 MT: Recently I've had the biggest loss of my life. 12:01 My wife of forty years, Gayle Tucker, passed away. You know, 12:06 we were partners in ministry. Uh, we had worked together as 12:11 pastors and in television ministry for forty years. 12:14 Everything I did was intricately involved with her. JB: It wasn't 12:18 really a matter of Mike Tucker. MT: No. JB: It was Mike and 12:21 Gayle. MT: Mike and Gayle. JB: Mike and Gayle. Mike and Gayle. 12:23 MT: Mike and Gayle. Everything we did. Television, marriage 12:26 seminars, pastoral ministries. She was a pastor as well. So 12:29 every aspect of my life was intricately involved with her. 12:32 She was my very best friend. We were traveling all over the, the 12:35 world doing marriage seminars, among other things. And we were 12:38 in Vancouver, British Columbia, when her right hand started to 12:41 go numb. She thought she had slept on it wrong. But by 12:46 Saturday afternoon when we were doing a marriage presentation, 12:49 her right hand would work so poorly that she had to hold the 12:51 microphone in her left hand for three and a half hours making 12:54 the presentation, because she knew it would fall to the floor 12:56 if she held it in the right. I said, "This is wrong, we got, 12:58 I've got to get you to the hospital." She said, "Wait till 13:00 we get back in the country, tomorrow," which would be March 13:03 6. I said, "Okay." So we flew to Dallas, and when we landed, I 13:08 said, "Now, which hospital do you want me to take you to, 13:10 because you're not going home." And so she told me which 13:13 hospital, I took her there, and immediately they diagnosed 13:16 strokes. When is insane to me, because the woman was so active. 13:19 She was not overweight, no cholesterol. I mean, no risk 13:23 factor for stroke. JB: The picture of health. 13:25 MT: Absolutely. She played volleyball every week with a 13:28 group of ladies she'd play volleyball with for over 20 13:30 years. And it took another week and a half of testing to figure 13:33 out that she had stage four pancreatic cancer that had 13:36 already metastasized to her liver. And the liver, one of the 13:41 side effects of liver cancer, can be a condition they call 13:43 "sticky blood," which means it was creating blood clots in her 13:46 body, and when those broke apart it went to the brain, and that's 13:49 where the strokes came from. The stroke was a symptom. She was 13:52 going to die of pancreatic cancer. JB: Now, if you don't 13:56 mind. MT: Please. JB: She was going to die. MT: Yes. JB: 13:59 Pancreatic cancer typically is a one-way street. MT: Yes, it is. 14:02 JB: But... MT: Yeah. JB: People can be healed. MT: Yes. JB: God 14:06 is a great God. MT: Yes. JB: You know God well. MT: Absolutely. 14:10 JB: You have for many years. MT: Um-hmm. JB: But you felt then 14:13 --how did you process that? Were you living on hope, were praying 14:15 for her to be healed, or how quickly did you get to 14:19 resignation, I think we're going to lose her? MT: You know, I, I 14:23 was realistic enough to realize that unless God performed a 14:26 miracle, I was going to lose my wife. And she knew that as well. 14:30 I've worked as a chaplain in hospitals for years. I've done, 14:34 I've seen enough of this. I've worked with hospice patients. I 14:36 know, and she knew as well, that unless God intervened, we were 14:41 going to lose her. And she was ready. She was, she was okay 14:45 with that. She wanted to be healed. We had an anointing 14:47 service, as is called for in James. And we, we had a prayer 14:51 for healing, believing fully that God could heal her. Because 14:54 I, like you, have seen miraculous healing. JB: Sure 14:57 And so I knew that God was capable. But I also know, and 15:00 knew, that God might say no. At least, right now. Every prayer 15:05 for healing is answered yes. Sometimes immediately. 15:08 Sometimes over time with prayer and medicine and surgery. And 15:11 sometimes the healing will take place resurrection. 15:13 JB: That's right. MT: We asked for option 15:15 A or B, but we're willing to accept option C. 15:18 And so yes, I knew that this was a real 15:21 possibility, and she did too. So we prepared for the worst while 15:24 hoping for the best. JB: You said Gayle was okay with that. 15:28 MT: Yeah. JB: Tell me, if you wouldn't mind, what she went 15:32 through. There's your wife of 40 years, someone--everyone who 15:36 knew her, loved her. So you weren't alone in that. MT: Yeah. 15:40 JB: How does a person take that kind of news? Gayle at stage 4 15:44 pancreatic cancer. It's metastasized. We know the 15:46 chances are about this good. MT: Yeah, yeah. JB: How does a 15:49 person deal with that? MT: You know, obviously it was a big 15:52 blow to her. And it took her a while to just kind of digest 15:56 this. And when she began to realize it, I asked her, "Are 15:59 you angry? Are you frightened?" She said, "No." She said, "I've 16:03 had sixty years of immaculate health." And she had. I mean, 16:06 she was vibrate and healthy and active. And she said, "Some 16:10 people never get a day. I've had forty years of a wonderful 16:13 marriage, and some people never know that. I've had over forty 16:16 years of exciting ministry, fulfilling ministry. I've got 16:19 children and grandchildren and extended family and friends. And 16:22 some people never know any of that. For me to be angry that 16:25 that only lasted sixty years instead of eighty seems to be 16:28 somewhat ungrateful, and I'm not going to be ungrateful to my 16:31 Lord. I just thank him for what I've had." JB: Amen. MT: That 16:34 was her attitude. JB: Wow. MT: And she got that attitude early 16:37 on. She never experienced fear, because she knew her heart was 16:40 right with Jesus. She never experienced anger, because she 16:44 was grateful for what she'd had. And amazingly, I had already had 16:48 the same thoughts --which is strange for me, because, 16:51 truthfully, anger has always been my go-to emotion. But I'd 16:54 gone through a previous loss, a financial and a career loss, at 16:58 an early point. We lost our house. We lost our savings. I 17:01 thought I'd lost my career. I thought it was all over. And I 17:04 hadn't done anything. And my response was anger. Because at 17:07 the time I was giving 30 percent of my gross income to the 17:10 church. I was volunteering as a pastor while working in private 17:13 business. All sorts of exciting things were happening with the 17:16 church. It was growing like crazy. And my anger was, "God, 17:19 what did you want? Forty percent? I don't get it." I 17:22 thought because of my hard labor, my generosity, the 17:26 success of the ministry, that God owed me better than what he 17:29 gave me. And when I realized that anger comes when we think 17:32 we're getting less from God than what he owes us, then I began to 17:36 realize that I had sinned in my life by expecting something from 17:40 God he'd never promised. I confessed that to him, and he 17:43 forgave me. And I promised, by God's grace, I would make sure 17:46 my lived theology would be congruent with my expressed or 17:53 my preached theology. And that happened. So that when Gayle got 17:57 sick, I realized, I've had a blessing that was beyond what 18:00 most people ever experience. JB:So you weren't experiencing 18:03 anger either. MT: No anger either. In fact, it's been six 18:06 months since her death, and I'm still not angry. JB: Forty years 18:08 of marriage. MT: Yeah. JB: A catastrophic loss. MT: Yes. 18:13 JB: No anger. MT: No anger. There's incredible pain. JB:Sure 18:17 There's incredible emptiness and loneliness. There's, there's, I 18:22 cry at unexpected times. But no anger. Because God has not 18:25 shortchanged me one iota. He has given me more than what he ever 18:29 promised me. And so since he has given me more than what he 18:33 promised, I have no reason for anger, because most people never 18:36 experience what I've had. I celebrate what I've had. I miss 18:40 what I've had. But I'm not angry with God. JB: There's more. 18:44 We're going to come back to the story we began in just a moment. 18:46 Pastor Mike Tucker, we're dealing today with grief 18:50 --something we all must experience, and something that, 18:54 if it hasn't come near you, it will. Today's program very 18:58 important. We'll be back with more in just a moment. 19:02 "Every Word" is a one-minute, Bible-based daily devotional 19:05 presented by Pastor John Bradshaw and designed especially 19:08 for busy people like you. Recieve a daily spiritual boost. 19:12 Watch "Every Word." 19:14 [Music] 19:19 JB: It's an enormous shame when 19:20 people lose hope in God. But it happens. And it's happened to 19:24 some outstanding people. Think about John the Baptist and his 19:27 temporary discouragement. The cousin of Jesus had boldly 19:31 proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of 19:34 the world." But one day he sent some of his disciples to ask 19:37 Jesus, "Are you the coming one, or do we look for another?" 19:41 That's Matthew 11, verse 3. John had been convinced. But now he's 19:44 in prison, and Jesus, who he believed to be the Messiah, 19:47 hadn't got the Romans out of Israel, and hadn't got John out 19:51 of prison. John knew Jesus was the Messiah, but he let go of 19:56 faith and started to make judgments by what he could see. 19:59 John couldn't see too well. Jesus was the Messiah, still is. 20:03 And our difficult circumstances won't ever change that. I'm John 20:07 Bradshaw for It Is Written. Let's live today by every word." 20:14 [Music] 20:15 JB: Thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. I'm 20:18 John Bradshaw. My guest today, from Faith for Today, Pastor 20:21 Mike Tucker. Mike, we're talking about your own experience with 20:24 grief. MT: Um-hmm. JB: A couple of moments ago you shared how 20:28 Gayle was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer. We got about 20:32 to the place where she was accepting of this diagnosis and 20:37 ready for whatever God had for her. So what happened next? 20:40 MT: Well, you know, we got the diagnosis March 16 of 2016. 20:44 First symptoms March 3 to March 6, and then the diagnosis March 20:48 16. And so we began to examine our options. We were praying for 20:53 healing. But she wanted to be home. And so we took her home. 20:58 Started with home health, and eventually went to hospice when 21:00 it was appropriate. But basically, she wanted to get as 21:04 strong as she could and enjoy the time she had with her 21:06 family. So we started calling in family members. We had to limit 21:10 the number of friend visits because we have so many in the 21:13 area, and it was draining for her. JB: Sure. MT: And so, so 21:16 many I wanted to bring in, but I couldn't. But she just started 21:20 spending her days making sure that things were right between 21:22 her and the Lord, and that she spent as much time with her 21:25 children and grandchildren and siblings and her mother as 21:29 possible. And so there were days of joy and days of laughter. And 21:33 she entered into a coma on April 8, and then passed away April 10 21:38 She was, her daughters were by her side. I was with, with 21:42 her. One of the, the sisters were with her. She passed 21:46 peacefully while we were praying with her and touching her and 21:49 loving on her. And she fell asleep in Jesus on April 10 in 21:52 the afternoon, about 5:47 p.m. JB: Now, the first symptoms. 21:59 MT: Yeah. JB: March 3. MT: March 3, when her hand went 22:03 numb. JB: And then goodbye. MT: April 10. JB: Six weeks. 22:08 MT: Yeah. JB: There are couple of 22:12 questions I could ask at once. One is, that's really quick. 22:17 MT: Very quick. JB: From having your ministry 22:18 partner, your life partner, you're traveling together, 22:19 you're doing God's work. And she's, evidently, in full 22:22 health. MT: Full health. JB: Six weeks later she's gone. 22:25 MT: Yeah. JB: At the same time, Mike, that's not quick. Quick is 22:29 hit by a bus. MT: Yeah, yeah. JB: That's quick. MT: Yeah. 22:33 JB: So I wonder if you can talk with me about, about the 22:36 emotions that you experienced and how you dealt with, or how 22:39 you're dealing with... MT: Um-hmm. 22:40 JB: ...uh, losing a perfectly health wife, just like that. 22:45 Where does that take you? How do you wrestle with that? 22:48 MT: I wanted to be as strong as I could 22:50 around her. But I, I wept like crazy. Just trying to get my 22:54 mind around, anticipating what it was going to be like without 22:56 her, and just accepting the reality that unless Jesus 22:59 intervened, I was going to lose her. The things that I've been 23:02 trying to do is, is to think. When the thoughts come, I think 23:06 them fully. I weep when the, when the tears come. I talk 23:10 about it, I, I share my feelings with other people. I write about 23:14 it. Um, I pray about it. Those things are helpful. The other 23:18 thing I do is I walk. When I'm home, I walk anywhere from eight 23:21 to twelve miles a day. Those are prayer time for me, and it's 23:24 thinking time. It gives me the opportunity to focus on nothing 23:27 more than, than my loss and my God and, and my prayer time. And 23:32 those things have helped me. Talking with my family, talking 23:35 with friends, telling the stories over and over again. Not 23:38 just the stories of her loss and the death, but the stories of 23:41 our life together. JB: Sure. MT: Of meeting her, the first date, 23:45 you know, and the proposal. Telling those stories over and 23:49 over again are important to me. And then the stories of ministry 23:52 together, the different places we've been, the decisions for 23:56 Christ we've witnesses. Those are the things that are helping 23:58 me. And then being close to my family, just holding onto my 24:02 daughters, my grandchildren, and helping them grieve as well. 24:04 Those are the activities. But before Gayle died, she wrote a 24:09 letter to each of our children and to our two grandchildren. It 24:12 was a letter to be given to them about six weeks after the death. 24:16 By write I mean she dictated and I had to type, because her hand 24:18 didn't work and she had lost her sight by the end. And after she 24:22 finished that, she said, "I need to write a letter to you." I 24:24 said, "Well, we have no one to dictate that to. I mean, 24:26 basically, you're stuck. And what are you going to say to me 24:28 you haven't said every day for forty years anyway?" She said, 24:31 "You may be right." I said, "So, for argument's sake, what would 24:34 you say?" She said, "There's nothing to regret. We had a 24:38 great life together. Don't, don't beat yourself up for any 24:40 mistakes. No regrets. That's number one." And number two, she 24:44 said, "Live our life." That's what she wanted for me. Our life 24:48 has been faith, family and ministry. That's who we are, 24:54 that's what we've done. JB: I want to ask you this. No 24:57 regrets. MT: Yeah. JB: Easy to say. MT: Oh, yeah. JB: Easy to 25:00 say, no regrets. Hey, Mike, when I'm gone, have no regrets. 25:03 MT: Yeah. JB: Really? MT: Yeah. JB: Do you have any regrets? 25:06 MT: I really don't. You know, I've made mistakes. JB: Sure. 25:09 MT: I haven't been the perfect husband. But every time I think 25:11 of those things, I remember what she said. No regrets. That means 25:14 that she had forgiven me for any mistake, just as I've forgiven 25:17 her. JB: I think it's important to be able to look back on 25:19 mistakes made... MT: Yeah. JB: ...within the context. We're 25:21 human, we're going to make mistakes. MT: Yeah, absolutely. 25:23 She had an amazing memory. She could forget every mistake I 25:26 ever made. So why would I beat myself up over something that 25:30 she had forgiven me for? God has forgiven me, and he says he 25:33 remembers my sins no more. So for me to remember it and bring 25:37 it up seems foolhardy. JB: What I believe is that even when you 25:40 have some kind of catastrophe in your life, if you're a believer 25:44 in God, you can still see God's hand. MT: Yeah. JB: Right? Is 25:47 that right? MT: Yeah. JB: Did you see God's hand through this 25:50 process. MT: Yes, I did. JB: How do you see God's hand in what's 25:54 a disaster? MT: Yeah. The first place I see it is in the way she 25:58 died. She died as she lived. And when people saw the congruence 26:01 between what she lived and how she died, they were brought to 26:05 faith. Another way that I see this is that, even though we've 26:08 had a close-knit family, this has brought us even closer 26:11 together. My daughters and I are tight. And I, I don't make 26:16 decisions without them. But another thing is that as I've 26:19 given expression to my pain. I've written about it. I've 26:22 shared it openly from the pulpit. And when they see me 26:25 doing this, it gives them courage and gives them hope. 26:27 Those are some of the, just a few of the ways that I see God's 26:32 hand in this. JB: We just have a moment. Someone's experiencing 26:36 grief... MT: Yeah. JB: ...and it just seems like the end. 26:40 MT: Yeah. JB: Now, very obviously, one can go on, 26:46 because for six thousand years of human history people have... 26:48 MT: We've done so. JB: ...been going on. Yeah. 26:49 MT: We've done so. JB: What do you say 26:50 to that person who's grieving, uh, and just sees 26:55 blackness ahead? How can that person go on? MT: First of all, 26:59 this won't last forever. It will seem like it. But the darkest 27:03 part of it will not last forever. God has promised to be 27:05 a very present help in this time, even though at times he 27:08 seems even further away because of your pain. That's normal. 27:11 He's promised to get you through this. He will. JB: The Bible 27:15 promises us, in Psalm 30 and verse 5, "Weeping may endure for 27:21 a night, but joy comes in the morning." Is that your 27:25 experience? MT: It is. JB: Is there joy? MT: Yes, there's 27:28 still joy. It, it comes now in moments, and at times I see a 27:32 little bit more of it. I see it in my grandchildren; they're 3 27:35 and 5, and when they want to come play with Papa. They miss 27:39 Grammie like crazy and they cry, but they like to play with Papa, 27:42 and I see the joy of life in their eyes. That's joy for me. 27:46 When I preach and I see people respond to a message, that's joy 27:49 to me. When they respond to the television programs, I have joy 27:53 there. I have joy with my daughters. There's still joy in 27:56 life. It's mitigated with the pain, but there's still joy. And 28:01 I know that God has even more joy for me in the future. 28:04 Eventually there'll be more. JB: Pastor Mike Tucker, this has 28:07 been a big deal. Thanks for joining me today. 28:09 MT: My pleasure. JB: Truly appreciate it. Thanks. 28:11 Let's pray together. MT: Sure. JB: Let's pray. 28:13 Our Father in heaven, we're going to be honest with you 28:15 and tell you, we wish there was no such thing 28:17 as grief. We don't like loss. Human beings weren't created to 28:22 grieve. When you created this earth, death wasn't on your 28:26 agenda. [piano in background] JB: But an enemy hath done this. 28:30 We thank you today that the Bible encourages us, "Greater is 28:34 he that is in you than he that is in the world." And so we will 28:38 take our strength in you and trust that, when life's 28:41 difficult circumstances come, you'll get us through; that 28:45 weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning. 28:49 Thank you, Lord, for allowing Mike to be here today and share 28:52 his experience. Continue to bless him and use him in a 28:55 powerful way to offer hope, and hope in Christ to many. And 29:00 bless us. Friend, if you're going through a difficult 29:02 experience now, would you yield your heart to Jesus? Just pray, 29:07 "Lord, take my heart and make it yours." Let that be your prayer. 29:11 Lord Jesus, take my hand. Give me your peace. Give me faith and 29:16 trust in you always. Lord, we thank you for answering our 29:20 prayer and keeping us close to you. In Jesus' name, Amen. 29:26 Thanks for joining me today. I'm looking to seeing you again next 29:29 time. Until then, remember, "It is written, 'Man shall not live 29:33 by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the 29:38 mouth of God.'" 29:39 [Music] 29:49 [Music] |
Revised 2017-01-11