Participants:
Series Code: IIWSS
Program Code: IIWSS022144S
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00:14 >>Welcome to "Sabbath School," 00:16 brought to you by It Is Written. 00:19 We're glad that you could join us again today 00:21 for our 14th lesson. 00:23 This is the final lesson 00:25 in our journey through "Death, Dying, and the Future Hope," 00:29 and we're going to end things 00:31 on what I expect will be a very high note. 00:35 We're delighted once again 00:36 to have our special guest with us, 00:38 who has been with us now for 14 weeks, 00:41 and that is Dr. Alberto Timm. 00:42 He is an associate director of the Ellen G. White Estate. 00:46 Alberto, welcome back 00:47 for, at least, this journey one final time. 00:50 >>It has been an honor for me to join you every time 00:54 and also for this final one. 00:57 >>And this one really is an optimistic one, 01:00 or at least it ought to be an optimistic one. 01:02 We're looking at "All Things New," 01:05 that is, the subject of heaven, the topic of heaven, 01:07 paradise, if you will. 01:09 It's hard to think of a better way to end this quarter 01:13 than on a subject like that, 01:15 but even when we talk about something this positive, 01:18 this overwhelmingly wonderful, 01:21 you still run into people who go, "Really? 01:24 "Heaven seems like kind of a pie-in-the-sky idea 01:29 and wishful thinking," and things like that. 01:31 Is there really a place like this, Alberto? 01:37 >>I think that in human history 01:39 you find many kinds of proposals 01:44 or theories about heaven, 01:46 and I like very much a old movie 01:50 called "The Lost Horizon," 01:53 and you remember that one where they speak about Shangri-La, 01:58 the place where people do not age, basically, 02:01 maybe a little bit, but not so much, 02:04 and is a place of harmony and joy. 02:06 So this idea of trying to find 02:09 a utopical place, 02:12 where, a place of justice and a place of righteousness 02:18 and of happiness, 02:19 is something that is part of human aspiration. 02:23 But the Bible does not speak in such a term. 02:26 Even Paul says we are not basing our hope in something 02:30 that is just utopic 02:33 or whatever projection, human projection, 02:37 but something clear. 02:38 But when it comes to heaven 02:42 or to the afterlife, 02:45 if you want to call it in this way, 02:47 you have many different theories, 02:49 probably as human minds, to a certain extent, 02:53 because each one of us has a view 02:56 of what happens in the future. 02:58 But the Bible is very clear. There is no-- 03:02 some people, about a real paradise or real heaven, 03:06 some people have difficulties 03:08 because of the mentality that they have, 03:11 and we have been struggling a little bit more 03:14 from the dichotomic perspective, 03:16 because this has shaped our Western culture, 03:21 and Christianity to a large extent, 03:24 where the material, the concrete, the tangible 03:29 is here. There is a table; I can touch it. 03:32 There is a book; I can-- 03:34 there is paper, there is myself, and so-- 03:37 but for a Greek philosopher, this is the world, 03:40 the world we live in here, 03:43 but the paradise, or whatever you want to call it, 03:47 is just a world of ideas. 03:49 So some people have the notion 03:52 that heaven is so boring, is a place 03:56 where you only worship maybe on a cloud there, 04:01 playing your harp, something like that, 04:03 and nothing else than this, 04:04 so it's better even to stay here than to go over there. 04:08 But this is not a picture that the Bible portrays. 04:14 There, the life in the world to come 04:17 is as concrete as this one here, except for two things. 04:23 There is no sin, 04:25 and time does not destroy or corrupt things. 04:30 So it will be always in this, but it's as concrete as here. 04:35 The book of Revelation speaks of a garden, 04:37 of a city with walls, with people, 04:41 and we even will meet people over there. 04:43 It's not something abstract, 04:45 just a matter of souls or ideas. No, as real as here, 04:49 as we are talking here, we'll be talking over there. 04:53 >>You know, this concept of heaven, as you mentioned, 04:55 has different ideas that different people have about it, 05:00 and if you stop and think about maybe cartoons 05:03 that you saw when you were a child, or something like that-- 05:06 I mean, the ones that I saw, 05:08 so, you'd be walking along the street, 05:10 and a piano would fall on your head, 05:13 and then you would become this little baby playing a harp, 05:16 wearing a diaper, sitting on a cloud. 05:19 We get these ideas even from the time that we're very small 05:22 of what heaven is like, 05:24 but they're not at all like what heaven is like. 05:27 And I suppose, if we thought that heaven 05:30 was really just about playing harp and wearing diapers, 05:32 we probably wouldn't want to go. 05:35 It's not very appealing at all. 05:38 But the biblical picture is very appealing, 05:41 and if we spent more time reading our Bibles 05:43 than watching cartoons, we'd probably be better off. 05:47 Some of the things that we're going to see in heaven. 05:49 You mentioned briefly walls, streets. 05:53 The Bible talks about streets of gold, walls, 05:56 a city that has foundations 05:58 made of all these precious stones-- 05:59 "Every several gate [of the city] was [made] of one pearl"-- 06:04 and I've heard some people quip, you know, 06:08 "If every several gate, if every gate of the city 06:10 "is made of one pearl, 06:11 can you imagine the size of the oyster?" 06:13 It would have to be enormous. But what's this city like? 06:18 What are some things that we will see there? 06:20 You mentioned a few things that we won't see there. 06:22 Paint a word picture for us, 06:24 a biblical word picture, if you will. 06:28 >>Actually, we have to remember that John the apostle 06:31 had to to use the language available to his time, 06:35 at his time, and understandable to us, 06:39 because I think that heaven 06:41 is what is described in the Bible, but much more, 06:45 and we have just a very tiny, 06:49 little image of it. 06:51 But if you go to the book of Revelation, 06:54 you will see that it speaks, as I mentioned before, 06:57 of a city, a real city, and that city has, 07:01 is the center of the universe 07:05 because there is God's throne, 07:08 and God's throne presupposes the existence 07:12 of a place that hosts the throne, 07:14 and this is God's sanctuary temple. 07:18 Of course, we have that passage over there. 07:21 You remember---is it... 07:24 You have John, chapter 21, verse 22. 07:28 Could you read it for us? 07:29 >>Sure, yeah. Here it is. This is John 21, verse 22. 07:32 John says, "But I saw no temple in it, 07:36 for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." 07:40 But then, Alberto, you've got that other text 07:42 over in Revelation, chapter 7, verse 15, 07:45 that talks of this, speaks of this great multitude 07:48 worshiping God in His temple. 07:49 So how do we reconcile 07:51 these two apparently conflicting verses? 07:54 And you'll notice that I use the word "apparently" there 07:57 because, of course, there's not going to be a conflict. 07:59 But what's the significance of John saying in verse 22, 08:02 "I saw no temple in it"? 08:05 >>Actually, it's interesting that he did not say 08:08 there is no temple. He says, "I saw no temple over there 08:12 because God is the temple." 08:15 Actually I understand that John was so amazed 08:19 of what he saw that the temple even lost its meaning 08:23 compared with the presence of God. 08:26 But I like very much what a friend once told us 08:30 in a classroom, 08:33 Richard Davidson. 08:34 Because you cannot just pick and choose from the Bible. 08:38 You have to harmonize these kind of things, 08:41 and I agree with him when he says that 08:44 through all eternity, 08:49 from the past to the future, 08:52 the temple, the sanctuary temple in heaven always existed. 08:57 Of course, it had a beginning 08:58 because only God did exist forever, 09:01 but one time it started. But from eternity to eternity, 09:06 the temple had the function of a liturgical function, 09:10 or the place where God is being worshiped, 09:13 worshiped by the heavenly beings, 09:17 by His creation, His creatures. 09:21 But in the context of sin, 09:25 in addition to the liturgical function, 09:28 the place where God is being worshiped, 09:30 it also assumed as soteriological function, or a place 09:35 where salvation is being offered to the world. 09:40 So in that sense it has a double function, 09:43 but when salvation is ended, the plan of salvation, 09:48 and sin and sinners no longer exist, 09:51 there is no reason for the temple to continue 09:53 with this soteriological function, 09:57 but it will continue as a place of worship. 09:59 So I think that this is the main point. 10:02 And can you imagine? 10:05 You know, the highest point of heaven 10:09 is to see God, 10:13 and that is the climax of the whole process, 10:17 because, in reality, you see, for instance, 10:21 John, the Gospel of John, verse 1-- 10:25 I mean chapter 1, verse 18-- 10:27 that says that no man saw God. 10:31 This is in the sinful context. 10:34 But if you go to Revelation, chapter 22, 10:38 verses 4 and 5, you see that they will see Him. 10:45 This "Him" refers to whom? To the Father or the Son? 10:48 Well, it's an ambiguous passage. 10:50 We have no clear assurance in that one what way to go, 10:54 but we will see God, in other words. 10:57 But when you go to Matthew, 11:00 chapter 5, 11:03 Jesus even says, "Blessed are [those who are] pure in heart, 11:07 [because] they [will] see God." 11:11 So He's not saying that "they will see me." 11:14 So I understand that it refers really to seeing God, 11:17 and that would be the main point. 11:20 Can you imagine? Some people like to see famous people, 11:24 and it can be a actor, a actress, 11:27 or some important ruler or whatever, 11:31 or if you go to Rome, you want to see the pope. 11:34 But can you imagine to see 11:35 the Creator and Sustainer of the universe? 11:41 There is no greater privilege, 11:43 but we will be also engaged in a friendship relationship. 11:49 Did Jesus not mention to be, 11:51 to sit at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob 11:57 in the life to come? 12:00 That's the case. And so the friends-- 12:02 and in the book "Great Controversy," Ellen White says 12:05 that little children who died in a early age 12:09 will be brought to their, 12:10 given back to the arms of their mothers, 12:14 friends separated by death will join, 12:18 never to part again, 12:20 and we could expand this wonderful picture. 12:24 >>It's a beautiful picture that God gives us 12:27 of a future hope, and the good news is that future hope 12:30 is getting less and less future day by day 12:33 because we're getting closer and closer to Jesus' return 12:36 and the realization of heaven, 12:40 what God has prepared for us. 12:42 It's something that you don't wanna miss. 12:44 If you have been encouraged this quarter, 12:46 and yet you have been perhaps a little lax 12:51 in studying more, you don't have much more time, 12:55 but you've got a little bit more time 12:56 to pick up the companion book to this quarter's lesson. 12:59 That is the book "On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope" 13:02 by author Alberto Timm, 13:04 who we've been delighted to have with us for 14 weeks now, 13:08 leading us through this study. 13:09 You can pick this book up, 13:10 the companion book, at itiswritten.shop. 13:14 Again, itiswritten.shop, 13:16 "On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope" by Alberto Timm. 13:19 It will be a blessing to you 13:20 and add even more to your already encouraging study. 13:25 We're going to be back in just a minute or two 13:26 as we continue our study on "All Things New." 13:30 We'll be right back. 13:31 (inspirational theme music swells and ends) 13:35 (cheerful piano music) 13:36 >>[Announcer] This season on "Conversations." 13:39 >>Many times I think I know what God wants 13:43 or doesn't want me to do, 13:44 and many times, it's the opposite. 13:47 >>I was looking next to the car, 13:49 and there's this family with a little ugly car, 13:52 you know, I would never have, but I saw the family. 13:55 They're so happy; they're laughing and giggling. 13:57 I said, "Lord, this is... That's what I want." 14:00 >>Jesus just had this warm, loving feeling 14:04 that I just couldn't describe, 14:05 and I wanted it more than anything in this world, 14:07 and I knew He was the answer. 14:09 I don't know how I knew; I just knew He was the answer. 14:13 >>Amen, amen. 14:14 She is Gayle Haberkam. 14:16 His name is Dr. George Guthrie. 14:18 She once was a practitioner of Santeria. 14:22 I'm John Bradshaw, and this is our conversation. 14:26 (gentle piano music) 14:27 >>[Announcer] Season 4 of "Conversations," 14:29 coming to itiswritten.tv starting January 1st. 14:36 (inspirational theme music) 14:41 >>[Eric] Welcome back to "Sabbath School," 14:42 brought to you by It Is Written. 14:44 Well, we have now reached the very last segment 14:48 of the very last lesson of the last quarter 14:53 of 2022. So, we are at the end, 14:56 which might sound negative, 14:59 but we're talking about a really positive subject. 15:02 So, Alberto, let's kind of bring things together 15:05 in these last few minutes that we have together. 15:10 God is... 15:11 God has a plan for dealing with sin. 15:14 He has a plan for dealing with death. 15:17 The adversary, if we want to go back 14 weeks, 15:20 the adversary had his own plan. Satan had his own plan, 15:24 and he's had, well, several thousand years 15:26 to work out his plan, 15:28 and I think we probably all agree it hasn't gone real well. 15:32 But how does God's plan differ from the devil's plan? 15:37 What's the beauty of seeing the character of God 15:40 triumph in all of this? 15:45 >>Actually, the history of sin and death 15:49 is an ongoing history 15:52 since the Fall until the end. 15:55 So I like this definition of history as a process. 16:01 It started with human beings 16:05 departing from God, forsaking God, 16:10 and it will end; it's a process that will end 16:14 with the future re-encounter of man with God. 16:19 And in between this, 16:20 we have the great monument of God's love, 16:24 the altar of His love. 16:25 Actually, that's the cross, 16:27 that assures us the plan of salvation, 16:31 and that one really reviews the plan of Satan, 16:36 his selfishness, a plan built on selfishness, 16:42 and the other one is a plan built in love, 16:46 God's love. 16:48 So it's amazing, because as mysterious as evil begun, 16:53 and we have no explanation, 16:55 we can have no reason to explain how it started, 16:59 we know what the Bible says, but it is a mystery. 17:03 We can say who and and how it started, 17:08 but the reason behind this is something unexplainable, 17:11 but as mysterious also is the plan of salvation, 17:16 because humankind, human beings 17:19 were condemned to death, 17:22 and God finds a way, really, to solve the problem, 17:29 of condemning sin and justifying the sinner, 17:33 and this is something amazing, because 17:35 usually either you condemn sin and sinners together, 17:39 or you save them together, excusing sin. 17:44 But God was able to separate them, saying, 17:47 "Well, sin remains sinful 17:50 and is something antagonic of my plan." 17:54 But at the same time, 17:55 He is willing and able 18:00 to save sinners, and this is really the amazing thing 18:04 that ends with the final picture, 18:08 the glorious eradication of sin and sinners, 18:12 and those who accept God's plan of salvation 18:15 will really rejoice with Him throughout eternity. 18:21 >>So there's an incredible picture of what is to come, 18:24 and it's not too far distant, 18:26 but the reality is we are still here. 18:30 Right now we're still living in this, in the parentheses, 18:35 when sin exists on this planet, 18:38 and if you think about this from a cosmic perspective, 18:42 an eternity perspective, 18:44 there's been eternity in the past where there was no sin, 18:47 and there's going to be eternity in the future 18:49 where there isn't, 18:50 but there's this tiny little blip in time where sin exists, 18:54 and we happen to be on that singular planet where it exists 18:58 during the time when it exists. 19:01 How do we get through this time 19:06 to make sure that we can experience the eternity 19:09 that is yet to come? 19:11 What are some things that we can do 19:12 to make sure we're on the right side, 19:14 to make sure we make it through, 19:15 to make sure that we are among the saved 19:18 so that we don't end up losing out 19:20 on all of that wonderfulness because of this short time 19:24 and poor decisions that we might make? 19:27 >>Well, we have a tendency, 19:29 a human tendency, to blame other ones of whatever we want. 19:35 One of those is to blame Eve, 19:38 Adam and Eve, for the Fall. 19:41 Well, this is something that we can blame, 19:44 but we cannot change it. It happened. 19:46 It should have happened? No, it was their decision. 19:51 But I like very much an analogy 19:54 where people say that every human mind 19:58 is a garden of Eden in miniature. 20:02 The same decisions that Adam and Eve had to take over there, 20:07 we have to take also in our own realm. 20:11 So in other words, 20:13 every day we have to choose to follow God's plan 20:18 or our own plan, 20:21 and this makes all the difference. 20:24 The only assurance that we have 20:26 is that we are grounded in God, 20:29 I mean, trusting God and following His Word, 20:32 and this is the reason 20:33 why we have been studying this subject, 20:36 because this is not just a matter of opinion, 20:40 of point of view. 20:41 It's a matter of life and death, because some people say, 20:45 "Well, Jesus saves me, and that's enough." 20:49 It would be the same thing as saying, 20:51 "I love very much my wife, but I hate her ideas." 20:55 We cannot go live together if this is the case. 20:59 And so people today want to accept God or Christ-- 21:03 better saying, a Savior--but not as Lord. 21:09 They want revival but not reformation. 21:12 But really, what we have to do, 21:14 if I love God, whatever He says is meaningful 21:19 in my case, and my appeal would really be that we should, 21:23 this topic, we should not just end here. 21:27 "Well, now I know enough of the subject." 21:30 No, we have to continue studying it 21:33 because God's Word is for our benefit. 21:38 You know, when you go to the doctor 21:40 and he prescribes some kind of medicine, 21:43 you don't choose what you want to use in the sense where 21:47 I want to have the most tasteful medicine, 21:51 the one that I like the most. 21:53 No, you have to take the one 21:55 that maybe is not the most tasteful, 21:57 but the one that you need to have. 22:00 And so God created us. 22:02 He established this whole plan of salvation, as such, 22:08 to undermine, so to say, Satan's plan 22:13 and lead us to triumph with Him. 22:17 So in this case, who else can tell us 22:21 what we should do in order to accept 22:25 and to live this plan of salvation 22:27 and really be saved throughout eternity? 22:30 Only God. Whatever else is just human opinion. 22:35 >>And I think that's a valuable point to take away, 22:38 is that there are lots of ideas, 22:40 lots of theories floating around out there, 22:43 inside Christianity, even, on this very subject, 22:47 but the only one that really matters 22:49 is what God has to say about it 22:51 because the rest of it ends up just being fables, 22:53 and we end up believing them 22:55 and ending up making some of the same mistakes 22:57 that Eve made. 23:00 Alberto, for all intents and purposes, 23:02 our study of this subject is kind of coming to a close here, 23:07 and you've encouraged us 23:09 to not just accept that the study is over, 23:13 but to continue studying. 23:17 Why is this so important? You've already touched on it, 23:21 but I want to give you an opportunity to just, 23:23 to bring this point together. 23:25 Why is this such an important subject 23:28 that it merits continued study, 23:31 that it's worth our while 23:33 to continue digging into this subject and related subjects? 23:39 What's the importance? 23:41 >>Well, I would not like to overemphasize the case, 23:44 because I wrote the Sabbath school quarterly 23:47 and the companion book and so on, 23:50 because there is a tendency of each single author 23:53 to consider what he did like a child, 23:56 and something very important, 23:58 but this subject I did not choose. 24:00 I was asked to write on it. 24:03 I think it's crucial for one reason, 24:06 and you touched a little bit on this matter. 24:08 Our world in this, what we understand to be the last days, 24:15 has been taken over by all kinds of immortalists, 24:18 mystical, spiritualistic experiences, 24:22 I mean, publications, videos, and whatever you want. 24:27 There are even, there is even a website where you can go-- 24:31 and I would not share the the website, definitely, 24:33 and I have not accessed it, either-- 24:35 but you can send messages to your foreparent, 24:40 foreparents or ancestors that died and receive messages. 24:44 Then the next stage, you can talk to them by audio, 24:48 and the next one, you can even see them. 24:52 And if the Bible is trustworthy, as I say, 24:56 the last days will be, 24:58 there will be many different deceptions, 25:01 and even the devil will appear, and demons and so on, 25:06 because they know that their time is limited, 25:09 and shortly they will have an end. 25:11 So they are trying to do their best. 25:15 The bookstores, the movies, the internet 25:20 is filled of this kind of concepts of reincarnation 25:24 and near-death experiences. 25:27 I think that this is the time, 25:29 if you believe and trust in the Bible, 25:31 really not only to study and to share it, 25:35 but also to do your best 25:37 in order to really make God's Word prevail 25:41 and the teachings of the Bible 25:43 on this absolutely crucial topic 25:47 that we have covered so far. 25:50 So I think that our task is just beginning, 25:54 is not end. so you have concepts; you have understanding. 25:58 Why don't you share it? 26:01 >>I think that sharing is very, very important, 26:03 because as you mentioned, 26:04 the proverbial deck is stacked against humanity. 26:07 There's a lot of influences out there 26:10 leading people in the wrong direction, 26:12 but the good news is, 26:13 if God is with us, who can be against us? 26:16 If He's on our side, if He wants us to prevail, 26:19 if He wants us to inherit eternal life, 26:21 if He wants us to experience all things new 26:25 and to live in a time and a place 26:28 where there is no more sorrow, no more sin, no more death, 26:31 no more dying, no more deception, no more destruction, 26:35 that time is in the very near future, 26:37 and it's a reality that you can indeed experience. 26:41 Alberto, I want to thank you once again 26:43 for spending this time with us, 26:46 for allowing God to use you to write this lesson. 26:50 It has indeed been a privilege, 26:52 and I trust it's been a joy for you as well. 26:55 >>Yes, definitely so, the joy to be with you, 26:59 and also to share these ideas, and let's do our best. 27:05 The devil has so many people, so many spokespeople for him. 27:08 Why he could not use you and me for his cause? 27:13 >>God wants to do exactly that. He wants to use you 27:16 to share His light, His life in a darkened world, 27:21 and one of the best ways that we can do that 27:24 is to help people understand the hope that there is. 27:27 It's been said that there are two things 27:29 that people experience and no one can can avoid: 27:31 death and taxes. 27:33 We can't help you with taxes, but here with death, 27:36 there's a lot of hope that there is indeed. 27:38 And so we trust and pray that God will bless you 27:40 as you continue your study on this subject 27:42 and you share the hope in Jesus that's also found here. 27:46 God bless you, and we'll see you next week 27:48 with a brand new quarter on "Sabbath School," 27:50 brought to you by It Is Written. 27:52 (inspirational theme music) 28:25 (music ends) |
Revised 2022-12-20