Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer Robert Davidson (Host), Paul Coneff, Shelly Wiggins, Christina Cocotto
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000006A
00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:30 I am Jennifer Jill Schwirzer, and our program is dedicated
00:34 to helping us all understand mental health better,
00:37 and also seeing the path
00:38 to freedom, hope and healing in Jesus.
00:42 I'm sitting with my team, my treatment team today,
00:45 and I want to introduce them one by one to you.
00:47 First we have Paul Coneff, Paul's from Texas
00:51 and he is a marriage and family therapist.
00:54 He runs a ministry called Straight 2 the Heart,
00:56 it's a prayer and discipleship ministry
00:58 through which he helps people cope with loss,
01:01 suffering and addictions by pointing them to the cross
01:05 and leading them into an empathic relationship
01:07 with Jesus
01:08 as he goes through the closing scenes of his life,
01:10 it's a beautiful program, so impressed by it.
01:13 And I'm so thankful also to have Christina Cecotto.
01:17 She's from Georgia,
01:19 she is a licensed, you say it...
01:23 Mistress in social work
01:25 and she works at Wildwood Lifestyle Center
01:28 as a mental heath therapist and she is an amazing person
01:32 who loves to talk about lifestyle medicine,
01:35 we're gonna be covering some of that today.
01:36 So I'm excited about that.
01:38 We've got Shelly Wiggins, my home girl from Michigan,
01:42 and she is a great friend and a great counselor
01:45 and she has a practice called Driftwood Counseling
01:49 through which she treats couples, families, individuals,
01:53 focusing on anxiety, addictions,
01:56 abuse using both talk therapy and equine therapy
01:59 or therapy with horses.
02:00 So unique and so special.
02:02 And we have my co-host Rob Davidson,
02:06 he works with me in Abide Counseling Network.
02:10 He has a private practice and he works with families,
02:13 couples, individuals.
02:15 He likes to coach men in servant leadership
02:19 and biblical manhood and integrity
02:21 and so that is so needed,
02:22 and I'm so glad you are here.
02:24 We've got a wonderful topic and a very broad topic today
02:27 and a lot to share about it, our topic is anxiety.
02:30 Anxiety, many people suffer with anxiety.
02:33 In fact, anxiety is the most common mental health diagnosis,
02:37 if we consider the entire cluster.
02:38 So let's first consider a definition of anxiety.
02:42 Anxiety is a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease,
02:46 typically about an imminent event
02:49 or something with an uncertain outcome.
02:52 So let's also look at anxiety disorder types,
02:56 so that we can get an idea
02:58 of how this is a cluster of disorders.
03:01 The most common types
03:04 of anxiety diagnosis are specific phobia,
03:07 isn't that interesting?
03:09 And that would be an extreme fear of something for instance
03:12 like spiders, or snakes, or bridges
03:15 and Christina likes to deal
03:17 with that kind of issue, don't you?
03:19 And the second most common
03:21 anxiety diagnosis is social phobia,
03:24 and social phobia is just what we might consider
03:27 extreme shyness or fear of social interactions,
03:30 it's very common diagnosis.
03:32 What about the prevalence?
03:33 Well, if you consider
03:35 all of these different diagnoses,
03:36 the prevalence is almost up to 20 percent
03:39 lifetime prevalence rate in the US
03:42 that's really, really high.
03:44 And women, guess what?
03:45 Are more often diagnosed with anxiety than men.
03:48 Women tend to have more delicate nervous system's
03:50 and more often suffer from mood disorders
03:53 and anxiety disorders.
03:55 What about the causes of anxiety?
03:58 These things seem to come from again a mixture of nature,
04:01 nurture, and sometimes current triggering life situations,
04:06 if you found that to be true,
04:07 that sometimes something's going on
04:09 and someone's life is just putting them on edge
04:10 and it just makes the water overflow so to speak
04:14 if they were carrying a cup and it was right up to the top.
04:17 What's going on neurologically with anxiety
04:20 is quite interesting.
04:21 What we have is basically a dance
04:23 between the parasympathetic
04:24 and the sympathetic nervous systems.
04:27 The sympathetic nervous system
04:29 is the fight or flight response,
04:30 the arousal response
04:32 and that brings with a number of
04:34 different physiological responses
04:36 like dilated pupils
04:37 and more blood flow in the extremities
04:39 and shut down digestion and so forth.
04:41 We call that the fight or flight response,
04:43 that's the sympathetic nervous system.
04:45 Then you have a parasympathetic nervous system
04:48 which is the feed, breed and rest system
04:51 which enables our sympathetic response
04:53 to calm down, so people can relax.
04:56 We were designed to be most of the time
04:59 in the parasympathetic state, resting.
05:02 And then once in a while, sort of ramped up
05:06 to the sympathetic nervous system, arousal state,
05:08 so that we could deal with the threat of some kind.
05:11 Unfortunately some of us get ramped up and stay there,
05:15 and then what happens
05:17 is the sympathetic nervous system
05:18 and every system in the brain or the body
05:20 can get overworked, can't it?
05:22 And so if the sympathetic nervous system is overworked,
05:25 it will get worn out after a time
05:27 and then people can be left
05:29 with the legacy of difficulty as a result.
05:31 But as always the prognosis is what?
05:35 The prognosis is good, because Jesus can heal us
05:38 and there are ways to get pass these things.
05:40 What are some of the treatments?
05:41 Well, the treatment would include lifestyle,
05:43 we're gonna be talking about that in a moment.
05:45 I always teach my anxiety clients, breathing,
05:49 how about you guys?
05:51 Breathing is just standard anxiety treatment.
05:53 What happens with sympathetic nervous system arousals,
05:55 we start to naturally breathe shallow and fast,
06:00 and what we do is we teach people
06:01 how to then slow their breathing down
06:03 and breathe deep
06:05 and that actually tricks the limbic brain
06:07 into believing that there everything is okay.
06:10 Everything's okay now, I'm breathing deep
06:12 and that's how that works, it creates a feedback loop
06:14 that convinces the mind that everything is fine.
06:18 Sometimes social support can be very helpful in anxiety.
06:21 Also sometimes people need medication,
06:24 but I like to try herbs
06:25 and supplements and lifestyle changes.
06:27 First, we like the least impact possible
06:30 in treating any disorder
06:33 we want to not create side effects,
06:35 we don't have to create,
06:36 and most of the lifestyle changes
06:37 don't have any side effects.
06:39 Or I would say, I should say all of them.
06:41 Standard treatment for anxiety
06:43 is cognitive behavioral therapy.
06:44 Cognitive behavioral therapy is simply controlling
06:47 the thought life and it works kind of like this,
06:49 you have live event and then you have feelings
06:51 that arise out of that event,
06:54 and you would think that there would be
06:56 a direct line between the two
06:57 but actually there's something in the middle
06:58 called cognitive processing which is the way we think
07:02 about that life event which ultimately determines
07:04 how we feel about that life event.
07:08 So we have the privilege as beings
07:10 made in the image of God to think through things
07:12 and reframe them if we so choose to do so.
07:15 Jesus himself was a great reframer.
07:18 He said when you're persecuted be depressed, right?
07:20 No, he said when you're persecuted, rejoice
07:23 because great is your reward in heaven.
07:25 You just put a new frame on that thing
07:26 and completely transform the way we feel about it.
07:29 So cognitive behavioral therapy
07:30 is standard treatment for anxiety
07:32 because when people change their thoughts,
07:34 they change the way they feel, but Paul likes to bring out
07:37 that we don't change our own thoughts,
07:39 we receive those new thoughts from Jesus
07:42 and I'm much comfortable with that as well,
07:44 otherwise we basically have humanism, don't we?
07:46 So I want to talk though about lifestyle and medicine,
07:49 and I know you work Christina at Wildwood Lifestyle Center.
07:53 Tell us some of the things that you use for anxiety
07:55 with your clients that come there?
07:58 Well, first I want to explain
08:00 that there is two laws of the mind.
08:02 There is the moral law
08:03 and then there is the natural law.
08:05 And so the natural laws
08:07 are simply the lifestyle changes,
08:08 the eight laws of heath.
08:10 The moral law has to do with the thoughts,
08:12 the feelings and the behavior.
08:14 So I'll a touch a little bit on the natural law, of course,
08:16 the eight laws of health are nutrition, exercise, water,
08:20 sunshine, temperance, air, rest and trusting in God.
08:24 And many times people, sometimes people will come in
08:27 and say, you know, I think I have a hormonal imbalance
08:30 and we don't, you know, we don't do any testing
08:32 to figure out whether they do or not
08:34 but simply by correcting vitamin deficiencies,
08:37 simply by them following the eight laws of health,
08:40 they can actually up their serotonin
08:42 and correct that hormonal imbalance
08:44 even if they were to have one.
08:46 That's amazing, so you don't have to do this
08:48 very detailed evaluation of the problem.
08:51 You basically try the remedy first
08:53 and see if that corrects the problem.
08:55 So can you give us some idea what the laws of health are?
08:58 Oh, I had mentioned just the eight laws of health,
09:01 the nutrition, exercise, water, sunshine, temperance, air,
09:05 rest and trusting in God.
09:07 And I want to talk about a quote just quickly here,
09:10 it says "Wrong habits of eating and drinking
09:12 leads to errors in thought and action."
09:16 So we can see that simply from how we,
09:20 what we take into our bodies
09:21 that actually affects our thought life
09:23 and it affects our actions,
09:25 and so this is very critical to the Christian life.
09:28 So give me an example of how that would work.
09:31 So we advocate for plant based diet
09:34 and primarily that's because of all the hormones
09:36 that are found in me and Jesus
09:38 and dairy products in general,
09:40 and we believe that tends to cause
09:43 difficulty managing their motions
09:45 due to all those toxins,
09:47 and I'm a case example actually.
09:49 Two years ago I became vegan and I noticed that when I did,
09:53 I had a lot more ability
09:54 to tolerate stress a lot easier,
09:57 and when that happened I thought,
09:58 "Man, it was never meant to be so difficult to be a Christian.
10:02 And, so I'm a case example of that,
10:05 but I can tell you just after patients go through the program
10:08 by the second day,
10:10 so I've only been able to see them maybe once
10:11 to take an assessment.
10:13 Many times they are already getting better
10:15 and some have even almost
10:17 had full recovery by the second day,
10:19 because of simply being in that support environment
10:23 and doing the different diet changes,
10:26 and being and having
10:28 that spiritual support in knowing
10:30 that they're gonna get help.
10:31 So you have therapeutic things
10:33 coming from all different directions.
10:34 You have a socially supportive environment,
10:37 you have a change of diet,
10:38 you have more exercise, more water.
10:41 There is a lot of things happening
10:42 and you're not always sure exactly what's working
10:44 but you just assume
10:46 because these are God's principles
10:47 that all of it's kind of working together
10:49 for the good of the person.
10:50 Right and hydrotherapy is also very big...
10:52 What is hydrotherapy?
10:54 So, hydrotherapy is a therapy done with water.
10:56 So I don't know if you've heard of contra showers,
11:00 Russian steam bath,
11:01 there is a hundred different types of...
11:02 How do you take a contra shower?
11:04 So, it looks, they call it the car wash.
11:07 It's basically a shower and it's got like,
11:11 I can't even remember, I think like six showerheads
11:13 and they shoot out in all different,
11:16 they're all positioned in different directions
11:17 so that they hit different areas of the body
11:20 and they go 30 seconds cold,
11:23 then three minutes hot and they switch off.
11:25 They do cold first? Probably not.
11:27 They do the hot water.
11:29 You could do this at home,
11:30 right, in your shower and just turn around...
11:32 You can, yeah.
11:33 And what that does is
11:35 that helps with the blood circulation.
11:36 Of course we need good blood supply to the brain,
11:38 to the mind, to be able to think appropriately.
11:40 So all these...
11:42 Christine, doesn't that increase the immune system?
11:43 Oh, yeah, certainly,
11:45 so it helps naturally with the physical body
11:47 and anything that helps the physical body
11:48 helps the mind as well.
11:49 So talk also about the vegan diet
11:52 and there is all this research now
11:53 about serotonin in the bowels,
11:55 you know and there is so much serotonin in the bowels,
11:57 and I kind of wonder if the higher fiber diet,
12:00 you know, just helps the bowels produce
12:02 some more appropriate amount of serotonin.
12:04 I'm kind of shooting in the dark here,
12:06 but do you know anything about that.
12:07 Well, I wish I had my alone nutritional chart up here,
12:10 um, I don't, but it does help
12:12 with different types of vitamins
12:15 and different things that are produced
12:18 with the nutrition,
12:19 serotonin is one of those things
12:21 that actually is more easily produced
12:24 with certain things in the diet.
12:25 And just for clarity purposes,
12:27 serotonin is one of the handful of neurotransmitters
12:30 that regulate our brain functions
12:33 and serotonin is the one that is the most involved
12:35 in keeping the mood stable and that is implicated
12:39 in both mood disorders and anxiety.
12:41 So you're saying that the diet
12:44 just brings about a higher level of serotonin.
12:47 Is there any research to that effect
12:48 where they measures serotonin...
12:50 Yes, there is a lot of research to that.
12:53 Are there are any other like do you find that walking people
12:55 outside in the bright sunshine can be helpful?
12:57 I find that is one of... that is very, very helpful.
13:01 In fact, exercise I find that is,
13:03 it's one of the things that helps the most.
13:07 In fact we had an exercise coach
13:08 that came to Wildwood,
13:10 and unfortunately she's not there anymore,
13:11 but when she came, I had a client who was,
13:15 who didn't want to live anymore.
13:17 And when she came,
13:19 she came actually at the end of the week
13:21 and it was over the weekend and I came back on Monday
13:23 and I spoke with the client and they...
13:26 We had our session and I said, I had given her some homework
13:29 to be thinking about her thoughts
13:31 and to be evaluating them,
13:33 and she said, Christina, she was just laughing
13:36 and joking with me and I'm like what happened.
13:38 And she told me,
13:40 "All my thoughts were imaginary."
13:41 And I said, "How did you come to that conclusion?"
13:43 She is like, "I think I just needed to exercise."
13:46 So simply by that exercise coach
13:48 encouraging her to do the right exercises for her,
13:54 she was able to think more clearly,
13:55 so really clearing up that frontal lobe,
13:57 it helps a lot.
13:59 I find that my counseling,
14:00 it's a lot easier to get through the people
14:02 when they are having their frontal lobe more clear
14:05 due to the nutrition, the exercise and you name it.
14:08 I had a really tragic interpersonal experience
14:11 about 10 years ago and I was down for the count,
14:13 I was already in the counseling field,
14:14 so I'm like the counselor with depression, you know,
14:17 and feel like kind of bad about that anyway.
14:18 I tried all kinds of things
14:20 and I just couldn't seem to get past it.
14:23 I decided I would get up in the morning
14:25 and do my exercise, running etcetera
14:28 in the morning as the sun was rising,
14:30 and that bright light exposure in the morning
14:32 just revolutionized my brain chemistry
14:34 and I could feel my mood coming back,
14:35 that was amazing.
14:36 Right. Yeah.
14:38 Have really unique alarm clocks now that actually start to like
14:43 the light starting in your room so if you need more...
14:47 If you live in Alaska or some really dark place,
14:50 I don't know if Alaska is that way
14:51 but some area of the world...
14:53 Or Michigan for at least eight months.
14:55 And there is light boxes too.
14:56 What's that?
14:58 There's light boxes that Wildwood uses.
15:00 You know, anxiety really does affect the way we sleep,
15:03 and most of my clients
15:05 would present with the sleeping difficulties
15:07 especially those with anxiety.
15:10 So I've developed a relaxation bullet point sheet
15:12 with just these things that you're mentioning,
15:14 the eight laws of health
15:15 to make sure that they have this
15:17 right in front of them,
15:18 and then I moved down to lifestyle changes,
15:19 little adjustments here and there,
15:21 recreation that's very important.
15:23 And then I move on to the spiritual
15:24 which we'll get into,
15:26 but they have all of these bullet points
15:27 in terms of how to start to relax
15:29 especially before bedtime which so, so important.
15:32 So having a sleep hygiene, yeah.
15:34 Sleep hygiene.. Yeah,
15:35 I heard Dr. Nedley say get up early in the morning,
15:39 and get that light exposure and it turns,
15:41 it raises your serotonin level
15:43 and your serotonin turns into melatonin at night,
15:46 so it can affect both.
15:47 Well, let's go into the spiritual realm here
15:50 and let's talk about fear as a principle scripturally,
15:53 one of the things I've noticed in my studies recently
15:56 is that God doesn't have anything against fear.
15:58 He talks about fearing God positively all the time.
16:02 It says not to be afraid,
16:03 but then he says fear God many times.
16:05 So I did little word study and I realize that
16:08 majority of times it says to fear God,
16:09 it uses the word Phobos.
16:11 Now, we are in the habit of saying,
16:12 oh, that means reverence and it does.
16:14 But the word Phobos means like kind of phobia.
16:17 It just means nervous system arousal.
16:19 So I think what God is saying is,
16:21 if you're gonna have a fight or flight response
16:22 have it toward me.
16:24 I should be your primary fear,
16:26 because after all I'm God and I'm Holy.
16:29 And that combination is a great threat to a sinner.
16:32 But that will grab your attention,
16:33 that's the purpose of fear is to focus your attention
16:36 'cause all the orifices of face open up,
16:38 you open up your eyes, everything,
16:40 your nostrils flare,
16:42 so you can take in more information.
16:43 You focus on that supposed threat
16:46 and you examine it.
16:48 And in God's case you examine it
16:50 and realize He is love and perfect love cast out fear.
16:55 You're tracking with me, you know what I'm saying.
16:57 Yeah. Yeah.
16:58 And it's beautiful that He says perfect love cast out fear.
17:01 We are not casting out to fear, we're not talking ourselves
17:03 how to try and not be afraid,
17:05 we are focusing on love,
17:07 and that sense of safety and comfort.
17:08 And again, if you're talking about
17:09 anxiety, fear, these are feelings.
17:11 There can be intense feelings,
17:13 you can kick it up to panic attacks
17:14 or you feel like
17:16 the whole world is closing over you,
17:17 and no one is attacking you, no one is hurting,
17:18 but you got to get out of the room.
17:20 So the various,
17:21 but if we can bring those thoughts to God
17:22 and the feelings,
17:24 both the thoughts and the feelings to God
17:25 and he starts ministering to us
17:26 and we have a lot more security and peace.
17:28 And scripture gives us story after story after story
17:33 of people going directly to God
17:34 with all our thoughts and feelings.
17:35 I love that.
17:37 No matter how negative we get.
17:38 Okay, you want to get into our presenting problem, Rob.
17:41 Oh, we're ready.
17:42 Thirty three year old Karen,
17:44 a middleclass white women living in the suburbs
17:47 has a stable marriage
17:48 and three elementary aged daughters.
17:50 She functions well in all aspects except for one.
17:54 She has become completely obsessed
17:55 with a high school friendship
17:57 that ended in what seems to be an irrepressible rift.
18:00 She wishes she could simply lead this rift behind,
18:04 but her ex-friend works at the coffee shop
18:06 where her husband manages and runs in her social circles.
18:10 Being from a small town
18:11 and countering the ex-friend in conversation
18:13 and in person is unavoidable.
18:15 Yet, Karen feels terrorized
18:18 by the ex-friend's criticisms of her,
18:20 and worries that she will poison others views of her.
18:24 Karen feels overwhelmed with anxiety
18:26 and is at times unable to sleep or function well.
18:29 You know, what comes to me from this
18:31 is that we are created in the image of relational God,
18:34 and relationships are like a life and death issue.
18:37 And when a very close relationship develops a rift,
18:40 it can be life shattering.
18:42 You know, it can be a really...
18:43 Someone might say, oh, what's this big deal,
18:45 you had up issue with the friend
18:46 and you're not friends anymore, get past it,
18:48 but I don't say that to people
18:50 because I know how important relationships are.
18:52 So what would you guys do to help this poor individual?
18:57 I guess, I would ask a few more questions
18:59 and try and draw out the sources and triggers.
19:02 You know the specific sources and triggers for her.
19:05 What was she saying to herself, kind of?
19:07 Right, and for her to become aware of them
19:10 when they're happening
19:11 and then give her some specific things
19:14 to try in the moment.
19:16 The other thing,
19:17 I would just wanna kind of go back to exercise,
19:19 Christina, as you were bringing up
19:21 the whole concept of how exercise can,
19:24 like help dissipate anxiety,
19:27 even the stuff that's in storage.
19:29 So I mean, I would highly recommend
19:31 that she get an exercise program going
19:35 because then that extra built up anxiety...
19:39 That calling means literally,
19:41 I mean the body you can own,
19:43 the best way to release stress hormones is exercise.
19:48 So if she is doing more exercise
19:50 prior to these encounters,
19:52 it sort of like taking the trash out once a day
19:55 instead of letting it over flow.
19:57 I love that, that's really, really great.
19:58 That's real practical too.
20:00 What would you say to her, Paul,
20:02 about the spiritual aspect of this?
20:03 Well, you know,
20:05 she seems to be consumed by this.
20:06 I mean, it's making her world anxiety
20:09 and fear makes her world very, very small.
20:11 Also you can think about is her, her ex-friend,
20:14 and how this is gonna impact her reputation.
20:15 So I would wanna look at like
20:17 Shelly said, what are those triggers,
20:18 what are those negative thoughts
20:19 she has about herself, worrying about her reputation
20:22 'cause that seems to be the core issue.
20:24 The core that she is worried about her reputation.
20:25 And those thoughts create all these negative feelings,
20:27 it's like a runaway train,
20:29 and so then I want to say,
20:30 you know, was Jesus ever tempted
20:32 in the areas worrying about his reputation
20:34 with people turning against him
20:37 because her story is this small,
20:38 that's consuming her.
20:40 We're not knocking her
20:42 but the more she worries about it,
20:43 the smaller her world gets.
20:45 Bringing in Jesus to her can expand it,
20:47 not only that Jesus gonna understand,
20:49 but now she can began to start looking at a bigger perspective
20:51 and then in those moments when she is triggered,
20:54 she can begin praying to God,
20:56 thanking God that Jesus has been there before her.
20:58 If she's struggling with exercise,
21:00 she can pray about
21:01 God giving her an exercise partner
21:03 or you know, what's gonna be the best environment
21:04 for her to have that exercise,
21:06 to navigate those lifestyle changes.
21:07 So she's...
21:09 we're bringing God into every aspect
21:10 of her thought process and decision making.
21:13 One of the things that happens
21:15 when a very close relationship develops a rift
21:17 or becomes estranged is you start to doubt,
21:20 and I can speak from experience on this.
21:22 You doubt your ability
21:24 to have relationships in the future.
21:26 You think there are some kind of fatal flaw in my character.
21:29 Whenever I get close, that's gonna happen again,
21:32 and the same thing is gonna happen over,
21:34 and part of moving on for me in my situation was saying,
21:38 you know, it's true,
21:39 I have flaws in my character but so does everyone.
21:42 And I can learn from the past, and I can say, you know what,
21:45 I did do some things wrong and I'm gonna own that
21:47 but I'm not gonna own what isn't me,
21:48 I'm gonna make the best determination possible
21:50 and then I'm gonna move into the future
21:51 and I'm gonna try to do better next time.
21:53 And I think that would be a good message
21:55 to give to her is like, don't think that you have
21:58 some kind of fatal flaw that nobody else has.
22:01 It's part of the David and Solomon
22:03 is very angry people lying about him.
22:05 He says somebody he loves, somebody close to him,
22:07 and so in first part of the prayer he's very angry,
22:09 very bitter.
22:11 He's basically saying I'm in pain,
22:12 I suffer, God do you make him suffer,
22:13 you got lightning bolt in heaven.
22:15 He's real angry out there now.
22:16 Yeah, it's a very harsh,
22:18 it's one of the most hostile prayers,
22:19 you wouldn't want to,
22:20 musicians wouldn't want to sing it
22:22 as a pray song on Sabbath.
22:23 But halfway through so they get stuck,
22:25 he says Lord, you deal with me because you are merciful.
22:28 So he starts venting which is where we do it.
22:30 You know, I'm hurt
22:31 and here is what I feel about it,
22:32 but then he switches over and he says,
22:34 you know, you deal with me because You are merciful.
22:37 I am poor and needy,
22:38 and my heart is wounded within me.
22:40 So he goes from next to anger and venting to letting God
22:42 into that internal pain
22:44 and again like we've talked about another programs,
22:46 he starts shifting and ends up
22:47 praising God for being there with him.
22:49 I want to address that point of venting with God.
22:52 I think that's really important because I think a lot of times,
22:55 we develop these really proper prayers and we just...
22:58 I call them plight, sanitize, sterilize prayers.
23:01 They're terrible and then,
23:02 you know, you talk to your friends like
23:03 really down homage's just venting and whatever,
23:06 and then the light goes on one day
23:07 and you say why don't I talk to God this way,
23:09 because I could say anything to him.
23:12 Do you try to get people to really vent with God,
23:14 or do they get to that point.
23:16 You know, when they are struggling,
23:17 I'll open up the Bible like someone and I,
23:19 and I'll talk about this and they go,
23:20 well, that's angry, that's terrible,
23:21 it shouldn't be there.
23:23 Well, it was written under the inspiration of Holy Spirit.
23:24 So we're not saying his words are good,
23:25 his anger, desire for revenge is good.
23:27 What we are saying is
23:28 what's good is he is being honest with God.
23:30 And so I've had people tell me, this is the first time,
23:32 I've ever been given permission to be honest with God.
23:35 Now they can share heart to heart.
23:38 Not a nice church prayer, sterilize prayer
23:40 where they're telling God what he thinks,
23:42 what they think God wants to hear.
23:45 Now prayer becomes performance
23:46 where I'm trying to tell God what I think he wants to hear
23:49 instead of what's really in my heart,
23:50 and that's a big burden to carry.
23:52 So I love it when people looking at scripture
23:54 like David and others.
23:55 Elijah is depressed and says take my life.
23:58 I love it when scripture to get people permission
24:00 to have a relationship with God
24:02 and not only could handle these thoughts and feelings.
24:05 But he wants to be interacting with him,
24:07 he wants him talking to everybody.
24:08 And guess what,
24:09 he knows anyway so you might as well tell him,
24:11 you know, it's not like you can hide
24:12 anything from God.
24:14 So venting is not revealing to him,
24:16 something he doesn't already know.
24:17 And in this particular psalm,
24:19 he starts off with a negative feelings
24:20 'cause that's where he is.
24:22 But then he says deal with me.
24:23 Now, he is ready to look at his part
24:25 and he's asking God, what's my part in this pattern.
24:28 So there is a part for his personal growth,
24:30 and then he ends up back praising God.
24:32 I just feel a sense of relief
24:33 just as we're talking about being honest.
24:35 Don't you guys just feel like the sense of...
24:38 a God I can be honest with, wow!
24:40 And I think teaching clients how to forgive,
24:44 so that they can love is crucial.
24:46 And it goes right in with the spiritual peace.
24:49 You know, the question here would be
24:51 why is this person an ex-friend?
24:54 What happened?
24:55 You know, does she need to let go
24:57 of something that she did to this person
24:59 or does she need to forgive.
25:01 Lot of times people misunderstand,
25:03 they think that forgiveness means reconciliation
25:05 that they're gonna be friends again.
25:07 But there is freedom in the forgiveness
25:09 and then probably alleviate a lot of the anxiety.
25:11 As I understand, forgiveness can happen
25:13 apart from any kind of interaction
25:15 with the other person, if it needs to happen.
25:16 It's ideal if there can be an actual meaningful bestowal
25:21 of that forgiveness and repentance,
25:22 but it's not always possible you can still forgive a person,
25:25 Jesus did it.
25:27 Write the letter but don't send it.
25:28 And I think those are changing the perspective, as well.
25:33 I wanna just read a verse here that says,
25:35 Thou has caused men to write over our heads.
25:39 We went through fire and through water,
25:41 but that brought us out, us out into a wealthy place.
25:44 So knowing that it's going to end up for our good.
25:47 It's gonna bring us to a wealthy place,
25:49 that helps to put the perspective,
25:51 I mean the child in perspective
25:53 and that helps us to bear that child.
25:55 And that's why the prayer is important
25:57 because it's connecting us with God
25:59 and is letting God in.
26:00 He's expanding our story.
26:03 If God can give us that bigger perspective.
26:05 And I'll praise and say God what's your next step
26:07 in healing journey for them and ago.
26:09 Oh, I need to forgive.
26:10 In fact, now we know it's time God has told them,
26:12 okay, what are the steps God?
26:14 What needs to happen for this person
26:15 to forgive and move on?
26:17 We have just barely touched the iceberg on this subject.
26:20 But we've covered a lot of wonderful things.
26:22 In very shortly, let me just recap
26:25 a couple of the main points here.
26:27 You mentioned a couple of laws that are so important
26:29 that there is the moral and there is the natural.
26:31 And what we take into our bodies,
26:33 it really affects our thought life.
26:35 And we mentioned these wonderful therapies,
26:38 We mentioned the eight laws that we...
26:40 natural laws that we need to pay attention to it.
26:42 Exercise is huge.
26:44 Fearing God, we talked about
26:45 how important that is in a healthy way.
26:48 And then there are the triggers of anxiety.
26:50 We have to know what our clients
26:52 are being triggered by
26:53 so that we can address these things.
26:55 And then we...
26:56 cognitive behavioral therapy is just that
26:59 but when we bring Jesus into the picture,
27:01 it is Christ centered cognitive behavioral therapy.
27:05 Venting with God, my goodness I had a client who...
27:09 I gave her permission to do that,
27:11 and she came back in the next session and said
27:13 thank you for that permission,
27:14 I feel better now and I know God was okay with that.
27:17 That's awesome.
27:19 Well, that Lord tells us in Psalm 34:4
27:22 we hear David, I think it is saying,
27:24 I sought the Lord, and He answered me,
27:27 and delivered me from all my fears.
27:30 God is powerful enough and he's compassionate enough
27:33 to deliver us from all of our fears,
27:35 our anxiety disorders included.
27:38 If you're struggling with an anxiety disorder
27:40 or someone you know
27:42 is really struggling with anxiety,
27:43 there is help for you, hope and help for you in Jesus
27:46 and also seek out a professional
27:48 or read a really good book on the topic.
27:51 There is a hope and there is a future for you.
27:54 Thank you for joining us on our program.
27:57 We'll see you next time on a Multitude of Counselors.