Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer Robert Davidson (Host), Nivishi Edwards, Shelley Wiggins, David Guerro
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000007A
00:29 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:31 We're so happy you joined us for our program.
00:35 We like to focus in this program
00:36 on raising awareness about mental health
00:39 and all of the remedies that are available to us
00:42 to help heal us from our emotional behavioral
00:45 and mental disorders
00:47 I have a wonderful treatment team today
00:49 and I like to introduce them one by one.
00:51 Let's look first at Shelley Wiggins,
00:53 I'm so glad you are here, Shelly.
00:55 She is from Michigan
00:56 and Shelly runs a counseling practice
00:58 called Driftwood Counseling
01:00 and it's through Driftwood Counseling
01:01 that she teats a variety of people
01:04 and a variety of issues.
01:06 She likes to focus on anxiety, addictions and abuse recovery
01:10 and she uses not only talk therapy,
01:13 traditional counseling talk therapy
01:15 but equine therapy with horses.
01:18 So glad to have you here. Thank you.
01:20 Shelly, you always give such practical counsel.
01:23 And very thankful also to have David Guerro here.
01:26 David is from Wisconsin
01:28 and David runs a ministry called Rekindle, The Flame,
01:32 it is a restoration ministry helping people
01:36 experience restoration into the image of God
01:38 which is what he designed us for
01:40 and he wants us to come back to
01:42 and so you're all about that and through that,
01:45 you are chaplain, you're also a pastor,
01:48 you're a life coach and you teach life coaching.
01:51 And you are biblically certified counselor.
01:53 So you are a crazy man, I'm just saying.
01:56 He is a busy man.
01:58 Yeah, but he enjoys life,
01:59 and he loves to share good solid information.
02:01 I'm glad you invited me.
02:03 Yeah, I'm glad to have you here.
02:04 Also have Nivishi, Dr. Nivishi Edwards,
02:07 she is from Tennessee.
02:10 She is a virtual private practice counselor
02:13 at drnivishi.com.
02:15 She's also a teacher at Southern Adventist University
02:18 and inspiring author.
02:20 She's another crazy person that attempts too many things.
02:22 She is a wonderful blessing to the show
02:25 and to me personally and we're sol glad you're here.
02:27 She likes to help people develop healthy relationships
02:31 including healthy relationships with themselves,
02:33 which is important.
02:34 Thank you. Beautiful.
02:36 We have my co-host Rob Davidson,
02:38 Rob works with Abide Counseling Network with me,
02:41 and he also has,
02:42 he is a private practice counselor in the DC area
02:46 and he works the variety of presentations
02:47 on a variety of issues
02:49 but he likes to focusing on helping men
02:52 develop biblical manhood,
02:54 servant leadership and integrity
02:56 and that is such a desperate need
02:58 in our world today in the church and in the world.
03:00 And so we're so glad that you are on that, Rob,
03:03 and I'm so glad personally that each one of you are here.
03:05 Thank you.
03:07 We're gonna be talking today about Codependency.
03:09 We hear that term tossed around a lot
03:12 and sometimes we're kind of fussy on the definition.
03:15 So let's get a definition up right now.
03:17 Codependency is a dysfunctional helping relationship
03:21 where one person supports
03:23 or enables another person's addiction,
03:26 poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility,
03:30 or under-achievement.
03:32 So basically, if I'm codependent,
03:35 I need you to stay sick
03:38 because you being sick does something for me
03:42 or I think so anyway.
03:44 So that's the definition of codependency,
03:46 it's a little bit of a scary weird thing
03:48 but what about the prevalence,
03:49 kind of hard to try the prevalence
03:51 with any kind of formal literature.
03:52 But I will say this, I would say
03:54 anywhere we see addiction or dysfunction
03:57 or under functioning or abuse,
04:00 we're gonna have some kind of codependency
04:03 because we were created by God to be in relationship
04:06 and sometimes we don't understand
04:08 how that relationship works,
04:09 so we do the thing that comes naturally
04:11 which is sometimes for some people codependency.
04:15 So codependency is quite prevalent.
04:17 And by the way
04:18 when I used the term dysfunctional,
04:20 I'm not just using psychobabble,
04:22 God created the world to function a certain way.
04:26 He created it by a certain design
04:29 and that design is designed to function a certain way.
04:34 God's laws are basically descriptions of how life works.
04:38 You could look at them that way, anyway,
04:40 and so dysfunction means
04:42 when we're outside
04:43 or out of sync with God's design,
04:45 that's basically what I mean when I say dysfunction.
04:47 Wherever we see dysfunction,
04:49 we probably gonna see more codependency.
04:51 What is the cause of codependency?
04:53 I would say that it is something
04:57 that we develop through, mostly through observation.
05:00 The home of origin,
05:01 we see codependent behaviors,
05:03 our role models are codependent,
05:04 we're gonna think,
05:06 oh, this is just how you handle bad behavior in other people.
05:10 But the good news is that the prognosis is positive.
05:14 We can learn better ways of functioning.
05:15 Can I have an amen from my team of therapist.
05:16 Amen. Amen.
05:18 There's hope. There is hope.
05:20 There is always hope in Jesus.
05:21 Hallelujah, amen.
05:23 We're into that.
05:25 So what are some of the treatments?
05:27 I would say groups such as Al-Anon
05:29 and I think you were mentioning...
05:31 Adult Children of Alcoholics.
05:33 Adult Children of Alcoholics which is a broader group,
05:35 it's not just for codependences,
05:37 for all the fall out of growing up
05:38 in addictive home.
05:40 And then CoDA, Co-Dependents Anonymous.
05:41 And then CoDA, Co-Dependents Anonymous,
05:43 so there are several different organizations
05:44 that have groups that can help support us
05:46 through codependency
05:48 and that is part of the prescription, isn't it?
05:50 That's part of how people
05:52 get well is to be with other people
05:53 and they have that accountability
05:55 and at the same time support
05:56 as they move away from an unhealthy pattern.
05:58 So what things have you guys used
06:00 in your practice to help people overcome codependency?
06:05 I go into a teaching mode
06:08 and education on boundaries is usually where I start.
06:14 I recommend the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud and,
06:19 you know, they have it on a DVD
06:21 where sometimes it's like homework assignment.
06:24 You know, send it home with the client and say please,
06:28 you know, view this or read this book
06:30 and take notes and identify where are your troubled areas
06:35 and what is causing you not to have boundaries
06:38 with this particular people in your life.
06:40 Have you ever had the experience with the book
06:41 Boundaries where people are reading it
06:43 and they get back with you, they are like,
06:45 "I can't believe somebody wrote this.
06:47 They wrote it about me."
06:49 Absolutely. Yes.
06:50 Yeah. All the time.
06:51 Yeah, yeah, it's a very helpful book to a lot of...
06:53 Should have been like required reading
06:55 in high school or middle school.
06:57 I've also found that
06:58 the awareness of boundaries is one thing
07:00 but the implementation of boundaries is totally different
07:02 because we're just not used to doing it
07:04 for people in codependent relationships
07:06 just aren't used to going there.
07:07 Yeah. Yeah.
07:09 Not only are they not used to going there,
07:11 but they are afraid to go there.
07:13 Because if you stop there,
07:14 behavior like you were talking about earlier
07:17 and because if you stopped their behavior
07:19 and then it takes away from me
07:20 because I want to feel that way
07:22 and so that would makes it very difficult to implement.
07:24 What's also interesting about that,
07:26 it's not only does it impact you,
07:27 the codependent but what about the relationship itself.
07:30 Because there will be a shift
07:32 in the dynamics of the relationship
07:34 and sometimes that's really challenging for people.
07:36 If I stop doing what I'm doing
07:37 to support this person the way that I have been,
07:40 then what will happen with us in our relationship dynamic?
07:45 Let me tell you, Nivishi,
07:46 that I've had a client
07:48 who had to go through the stages of grief
07:51 where they got to this realization that
07:53 this relationship was unhealthy,
07:55 they needed to let it go
07:57 and there was a tremendous sense of loss.
08:00 So all of a sudden we moved into grief counselor.
08:01 Grief counselor. Yes.
08:03 And it was...
08:04 You got your other hat. Yeah.
08:07 Yeah, yeah. That's amazing.
08:08 I also, you talked and you asked about
08:10 what do we prescribe to clients when this is the issue.
08:12 I actually ask them to Google the word codependency.
08:16 I say for homework tonight, before you come back next week,
08:19 Google codependency and read
08:21 and tell me what you find
08:23 when we come back and we'll talk about it,
08:24 and it's amazing the insights
08:27 that they gain as a result of
08:29 simply looking at the definition,
08:32 seeing some of the talk about, what it is and how it works
08:35 and whether or not it's something that is real.
08:39 Lots of good stuff come out of the next counseling session.
08:41 So probably at this moment as you said that some people...
08:44 Are googling it up.
08:45 Googling it right now. Googling about this.
08:48 Jennifer, another definition of codependency is
08:51 an addiction to people pleasing.
08:53 Yeah. That's very precise.
08:55 So if everyone is happy around me,
08:57 I have a sense of control
08:59 and then there I can call myself down,
09:01 they have more peace inside of me.
09:04 I find myself telling people all the time,
09:08 you say you don't want to hurt their feelings
09:11 and this is particularly true of women
09:13 because we are very wired for empathy,
09:15 we feel other people's feelings a lot.
09:17 So I will say, you say
09:18 you don't want to hurt others people's feelings
09:21 and this was a realization for me
09:22 so I don't want to just be
09:23 accusing other people but really,
09:25 like for me I don't want to hurt my own feelings.
09:28 Because if I said no to them,
09:30 I was conceded disappointment and I was gonna feel it
09:33 and so in order to escape that feeling on my part,
09:37 I was pleasing them like you said
09:39 addicted to people pleasing.
09:40 Well, I'm gonna say
09:42 what's behind that I can't say no,
09:47 I'm always saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
09:51 There must be something behind as a boy.
09:52 Well, I think as Christians though
09:55 there is a lot of codependent behavior
09:57 because we think it's the Christian thing
09:59 to do unfortunately.
10:01 Okay, give an example.
10:02 So if as a Christian it is my responsibility
10:05 to be my brother's keeper.
10:07 Be nice.
10:09 And as a part,
10:10 nice I'll be my brother's keeper
10:12 it's to give and to do and to say yes all the time
10:16 because that's what a Christian does.
10:19 If I say no,
10:21 then what does that mean about me and my Christianity?
10:23 And how will that look to my brother or sister
10:26 at the church if I say no
10:28 and so I get into the habit of always saying yes
10:31 because I think that's the Christian thing to do.
10:34 Let me give a scenario, okay,
10:36 there is a strong leader in the ministry
10:38 and that strong leader is extremely ambitious
10:40 and they're always setting these goals.
10:42 The person is very charismatic
10:43 and they're able to just command respect from people
10:46 and everybody wants to please,
10:47 it's just kind of a natural,
10:49 certain people you just want their approval.
10:51 And so this leader, great person,
10:54 great ideas, brilliant, creative person
10:57 but they set goals that are unrealistic
10:59 that burn people out.
11:01 And those people working with that person
11:04 in order to say no
11:07 have to not only disappoint the leader
11:09 whose approval they craved so desperately
11:12 but they have to seem not spiritual.
11:16 So, you know, you are saying like codependency
11:19 can really cloak itself in religiosity...
11:22 Absolutely. Very, very easily.
11:25 And that's why we as Christian therapist
11:27 need to be on guard against it
11:28 and helping other people understand
11:31 what we're talking about.
11:32 One of the issues, Jen,
11:33 that you just maybe think about is,
11:35 I like to try to get the client
11:37 who is in this type of relationship to think,
11:40 okay what will happen
11:42 if this relationship is no longer there.
11:43 In other words are they so dependent
11:45 on the relationship
11:46 that they will start to have dysfunctional...
11:50 dysfunction in other areas.
11:52 And then that helps to bridge me to,
11:54 well, who really is our savior.
11:56 Are we dependent so much on this relationship
11:58 that this is our savior, that's why I try to go there.
12:02 Could it be the kind of the spiritual core
12:05 of codependency is a type of idolatry
12:07 where we put a relationship in place of God
12:09 and don't we all have to be willing?
12:13 I mean, I'm being careful here
12:15 that willing to say goodbye to a human relationship
12:18 if it gets in between us and God.
12:20 Absolutely. Yeah.
12:21 Being more concerned about
12:22 what does God think about me than worrying about
12:26 what the other person thinks about me.
12:28 If I have, if I set this boundary
12:31 what's gonna happen in the relationship?
12:33 And I think the easiest way
12:35 to talk to clients about this is to say,
12:37 the goal is to have your insides match your outsides.
12:42 What do you mean by that?
12:44 Meaning you stamp on my foot and I smile and go,
12:48 "Happy Sabbath, thank you.
12:50 I'm so glad to see you."
12:53 In the mean time you keep stamping on my foot
12:55 and I keep smiling and everything's great.
13:00 So the inside is not matching the outside.
13:01 You have a heart attack.
13:03 You know, so I mean but we see this
13:07 and we wonder why church isn't a safer place perhaps.
13:13 Because people are afraid to be congruent
13:15 with what they're really feeling inside.
13:17 Now we have to go with appropriateness...
13:19 You can't just be blabbing your emotions
13:21 and your problems all over the place
13:24 but there is a place for being authentic.
13:27 Okay, so if I offend you, you know, somehow
13:29 and before your church, okay.
13:32 And it hurts your feelings, instead of thank you, you know,
13:36 what can you do?
13:37 Well, read Matthew 18, it says, "Go and talk it out."
13:41 So right in that movement, could you say to me,
13:43 "Ouch" or what, would you do?
13:45 If you had some good practice with it...
13:47 But you might have to go, you know...
13:48 I might have to go back.
13:50 The next day of course...
13:51 And for the codependent person typically
13:53 there is a lack of bit awareness
13:55 that they have at the onsets...
13:56 All right.
13:58 The need for the behavior change and it's okay,
13:59 it's not in the moment, so he guesses what's going on.
14:01 Thank you for...
14:03 This is what I'm hearing, this is what I'm hearing.
14:04 It's okay because the process goes on to say, okay,
14:07 the level of awareness needs to be heightened
14:08 in order for change to be enacted.
14:10 And so if I can first see that there is an issue...
14:14 Then I can then make a change to the issue that is at play.
14:20 You are about to say.
14:21 Oh, no, well, I just want to piggy back on that.
14:24 You saying I have to make the change
14:26 but what I'm hearing is that
14:28 there is an inability to make the change.
14:31 And there is something missing. Yes.
14:32 And from what I'm hearing and of course,
14:35 this is what I do with my clients is that
14:38 God must be missing on the inside
14:41 and that we have a cup here and it's now it's half empty.
14:45 What I find is that with codependent people is that
14:48 the cup is empty and is that love cup
14:51 and that love is God,
14:53 and so somehow we have to help them
14:55 tap into the source of love and that is God.
14:58 Can they always tap into the source of love
15:01 while they're in that codependent relationship?
15:03 Could it be that they...
15:05 Sometimes the breakdown of that relationship can make room.
15:09 Is it always an exact process where fill up with God
15:11 and then you'll be able to have boundaries,
15:12 or it's sometimes like kind of both?
15:15 It depends on the individual and yes, you know, it's,
15:17 you know, it's both...
15:18 Yeah, yup, we all have wounds and so our cup has holes in it.
15:23 And I think our job as counselors is to look,
15:26 you know, in a gentle kind loving way at
15:29 what needs to be patched up
15:30 so that when it gets filled it's teasing there.
15:34 And I like that word that you used earlier practice.
15:37 Because I literally have to practice
15:39 with my clients and role play,
15:41 what it sounds like to them to actually say no
15:44 and for the fun of it I told one of my client
15:46 just in a fun way say no to anything,
15:50 everybody for 24 hours
15:52 and he had a blast doing it because he wasn't used to,
15:56 but he came back after that 24 hours and said...
15:57 With no friends.
15:59 That felt pretty good. He said that was good.
16:00 So it's the process as a Christian counselor,
16:03 it's a process of teaching them
16:05 and once again I'm saying process
16:06 because it takes time,
16:07 teaching them how to abide in Christ.
16:10 Amen. Right?
16:11 Abiding in divine. Right.
16:12 And Jesus said, let your yes be yes
16:15 and your no be no.
16:18 But women look at codependency
16:19 that relationship starts with our self though.
16:23 If we think about the fact that
16:25 I am having a hard time
16:27 with personal inconsistencies in my life,
16:30 I sometimes will have problems with inconsistencies
16:33 in my relationships with those around me.
16:36 So if I learn to love me and trust me,
16:42 I can learn to love
16:44 and have healthy interesting relationships with others.
16:48 And so have relationships that look more healthy
16:51 versus those who are dependent and who are codependent.
16:54 Takes a while to get there to love one so.
16:56 Absolutely. That's for sure.
16:57 Absolutely. In the right way.
16:58 You might have played.
17:00 Self, the wrong kind of self love is all too
17:01 abundant in nature,
17:03 but there is a self respect that we need to have,
17:07 where we have a relationship of accountability...
17:10 But also, you know, respect for ourselves,
17:14 I mean there's really no better way to say
17:15 or you hold yourself accountable
17:16 but you also respect yourself.
17:18 So go ahead and get into the presenting problem, Rob.
17:21 And how in the world can we ever obey
17:22 that second commandment to love others, if we're not,
17:24 don't know how to respect ourselves.
17:26 Absolutely. Yes.
17:27 Okay, so here's the case study,
17:28 19 year old of Swiss descent Laura
17:32 comes to counseling at the request
17:33 of her Australian boyfriend Karl
17:36 who has taken a corporate position in the States.
17:39 Laura's father is a professional
17:40 at a college in Switzerland
17:42 and her mother stays home with her four other children.
17:46 Karl reports that Laura is too emotional.
17:49 He spend several sessions with her
17:51 and she shares with you the struggles
17:53 that she has when Karl treats her badly.
17:56 Karl is 30 years old,
17:58 has a high powered job in a big corporation
18:01 and is an elder at the local church.
18:03 You learned that Karl has convinced Laura
18:05 that her family cannot be trusted
18:07 and that very few church members are saved.
18:11 She has few relationships
18:13 and those that she does has
18:15 Karl describes as dysfunctional.
18:17 After several sessions you tell Laura
18:19 that she is not too emotional
18:21 that her reactions to Karl's criticisms
18:23 and control are normal.
18:25 So where do you go next
18:27 and by the way Karl is paying for the sessions.
18:30 Find somebody else to pay for the sessions.
18:33 Seriously. There's a start.
18:34 Conjoint sessions...
18:37 Yeah, and...
18:38 Or a collateral,
18:40 I would encourage Karl to come in
18:41 on behalf of his girlfriend who he think needs help
18:46 and tell me the story...
18:49 And get him to share,
18:51 why are you paying for counseling
18:52 and what do you hope she gets out of it?
18:56 You know, and find out what's really going on.
18:59 And what if he tells you, you have to fix my wife.
19:04 Girlfriend, girlfriend.
19:05 Read the book Boundaries first
19:09 and then I'll see you in a couple of weeks.
19:10 And then he says no, you fix here.
19:12 For a conjoint session.
19:13 Do you guys see a formula for a setup for abuse here?
19:17 Absolutely. Absolutely, control.
19:19 There is an extreme power imbalance...
19:21 And he is quite a bit older and they're young, you know,
19:23 as you get older the age gap kind of closes a little bit,
19:26 they're young so the age gap is very large.
19:28 He is also...
19:30 There is a charisma gap, you know,
19:31 he is a stronger personality,
19:33 she is also not in her home of where,
19:35 she is not in her land of origin,
19:37 she is overseas,
19:38 so she is in foreign territory...
19:40 And probably dependent on him for a lot of things.
19:42 Depended on him apparently financially
19:45 and he is critical of her
19:47 and not only that
19:48 but he is kind of cutting her off from her relationships
19:53 by belittling and pathologizing the relationships...
19:56 Look what he's done to her world?
19:59 At home, at church he is elder,
20:00 he is a big corporate man and so he has locked her in,
20:03 he has locked her in.
20:05 And the first thing I would suspect seeing that
20:07 from this vantage point
20:09 having experience something like this,
20:11 not for myself but with the client,
20:13 the first thing I would ask is, is there abuse going on here.
20:16 Yeah, in a little probing...
20:18 And it's not always physical abuse.
20:19 Right. Yeah.
20:21 It could be other kinds. Yeah.
20:22 Yes, exactly.
20:23 And show that power wheel that comes with that.
20:26 What do you mean by power wheel?
20:29 In domestic violence they have
20:31 in recovery for domestic violence
20:32 they have a wheel that shows the culmination of power
20:38 and control before it becomes physical.
20:41 So to have the,
20:44 the red flags to build and recognize them,
20:46 you know, we can as therapist look at this synapses and say,
20:50 whoa, red flags
20:51 but how do we teach Laura to see them
20:54 for what they really are.
20:55 What they really are. Yeah.
20:57 What would you guys say to her?
20:58 I was gonna say one of the ways
20:59 that we can get her to see that,
21:01 to have that awareness is just what we saw here
21:03 giving her the permission to be able to say,
21:06 you know, it's not, you're not being too emotional.
21:08 And it's okay to not,
21:12 to go against those criticisms
21:13 and control that does not feel normal
21:15 because she hasn't,
21:17 she has been locked into this relationship where it's...
21:19 She hasn't had the permission to say,
21:22 I don't like this, this doesn't feel good.
21:24 So coming into the counseling relationship
21:26 or start to raise that awareness as you say.
21:28 And psycho education,
21:29 it sounds like it'll be really important for Laura
21:32 to just give her information about
21:34 what may be a healthy relationship
21:36 dynamic looks like.
21:39 Give her information and letting her tell her story.
21:41 Then she tell her story and you're listening,
21:42 you can point out some things
21:44 one by one of what you are seeing,
21:47 then ask her questions considering those things,
21:48 so I found that in counseling,
21:51 if you allow the person to talk
21:53 and then you repeat what they're saying,
21:55 and see this is what I'm hearing...
21:56 I love that.
21:58 They start to see this picture.
22:00 It will be interesting to look at her family of origin.
22:02 Her father is a professor,
22:04 her mom stay at home with the children
22:06 to find out what those dynamics may have looked like?
22:08 What she has seen growing up that may have influenced
22:12 or is influencing her choices
22:14 surrounding her relationship with Karl at this time.
22:18 And it doesn't say so, I don't think
22:19 but you kind of wonder
22:21 what the relationships are like with the family
22:23 and if he is pathologizing
22:24 all the relationships in her life,
22:25 maybe he is succeeding in kind of cutting her off
22:27 from her family which may be dysfunctional
22:30 and there may be some baggage there,
22:32 but they may also be her lifeline.
22:33 Out of a really unhealthy situation.
22:35 And like you are saying, bringing him in...
22:37 Yes. Yeah.
22:39 Can possibly, potentially help with that
22:41 because you at the council
22:42 who have questions for him as well.
22:45 Nivishi, don't you use a model with some clients in terms of,
22:48 it's a glorified family treaty but it is called a...
22:51 Genogram. Genogram, yes.
22:53 I wonder how you know that, Rob?
22:55 Real? Yes.
22:56 I do know. I do use a genogram.
22:58 And what does it help to do when we're taking about it?
23:00 You tell me about that Rob, what is that...
23:01 No, because I was your student.
23:04 This is what happens
23:05 when you get a bunch of therapists at one table?
23:08 But, yeah genogram is a...
23:09 I think many of us are familiar with our family tree
23:12 but in genogram in and of itself
23:13 looks more in depth at the dynamics
23:16 within the family system.
23:17 And so you can track and trace
23:19 whatever health or disease
23:23 may be a part of the family system
23:24 through the genorgram
23:26 and that helps to give insights...
23:27 It's a visual...
23:28 What you guys got going here,
23:30 it's some kind of like duel going on.
23:32 She was one time a professor of mine and I had...
23:34 And I taught,
23:36 one of the projects I gave you, Rob,
23:37 was to do a genogram and so you, yes.
23:39 But the beauty of it is you have that
23:40 visual right there and the awareness...
23:42 The insight.
23:43 Oh, my goodness I can see the generational patterns
23:46 coming down to me.
23:48 And all of a sudden, this is why I am,
23:50 this is the way my brother is or whatever.
23:53 Now we sense some codependency.
23:56 Dysfunction. Healthy relationships.
23:58 Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
24:00 But what would you do
24:01 'cause to me I think the best way
24:03 to help her out of an unhealthy attachment,
24:06 if you do come to the conclusion
24:07 after your discussion with him in the session,
24:10 you come to the conclusion, this is really toxic,
24:12 this girl needs to move on.
24:15 How do you get her connected, she is in foreign country,
24:17 she hasn't have any friends around,
24:19 he pathologizes her,
24:20 how you get her connected to some one,
24:21 'cause me that would be like essential is like some
24:25 I say recommending one of those Al-Anon groups
24:26 we talked about maybe
24:28 a wonderful place for her to start.
24:29 If she starts going to CoDA
24:31 or Al-Anon or one of those groups.
24:33 And if she can't get to a meeting because she is,
24:36 you know, stuck because he is the only
24:38 transportation or...
24:41 I mean we don't know are they living together,
24:42 they were just a little bit more information to gather,
24:46 but if she can't get out on her own, she could go online,
24:51 there are telephone conference meetings people can call into.
24:55 I think, Jen, you have one.
24:56 Absolutely free conference support group.
24:59 So leading her to find resources to help her.
25:01 Yes, connecting to resource is essential I think.
25:04 Getting her used to feel having other relationships.
25:06 Could another step be resources,
25:09 connecting her to resources
25:10 and finding a way to help her to connect Christ?
25:13 Yes, of course. Connecting to Jesus.
25:15 That's one resource. Yeah, that's one resource.
25:18 Finding her identity in Christ, her position in Christ,
25:21 her power in Christ.
25:22 That's right.
25:23 And this is at the heart of what a codependency
25:25 relationship is lacking is to have Jesus
25:28 as the part are the one who we are really dependent on.
25:32 Fully dependent on.
25:33 As opposed to fully dependent, as opposed to a relationship.
25:35 Finding my significance in Jesus.
25:37 Correct. That's it.
25:38 That's right, your primary significance in Jesus, I agree,
25:40 amen. Very good.
25:42 Okay, summarize for us, Rob.
25:43 All right.
25:45 What have we covered? Yeah.
25:46 What has been done?
25:47 Yeah, we touched on goods things here...
25:50 So we are talking about the need for educating
25:51 especially on boundaries
25:53 and you mentioned the excellent source is
25:54 a book called Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend.
25:56 They also have other books Boundaries on Marriage,
25:58 Boundaries with Teens.
26:00 So we need to raise that heightened awareness
26:03 of what is going on as codependent relationship.
26:06 Identify areas of weakness, we talked about.
26:11 So if we can't educate,
26:13 they can be educating themselves
26:15 in between as mentioned Google codependency
26:17 and they can come back with the plethora of knowledge.
26:20 People pleasing is a tendency here
26:22 and that usually means that
26:24 there is control issues going on,
26:26 either being control or the need to control another.
26:30 As Christians we have to think about how to say no
26:33 instead of yes all the time.
26:35 Sometimes we just have to practice that
26:37 because idolatry can come into place,
26:40 idolatry is putting another person in place of God.
26:44 Yeah. Ahead of God.
26:48 Talked about awareness, let see here change happens,
26:51 I like this, David, you said change happens
26:55 when God is the source of love.
26:58 So we really need to move to scripture.
27:01 Check for abuse as one of the first steps
27:04 that we need to be going to,
27:06 emotion abuse, physical abuse,
27:08 continued to educate
27:10 what a healthy relationship looks like,
27:12 and also the need to bring the family origin
27:14 into the picture to see,
27:16 well, okay,
27:18 so what are the roots of some of this
27:19 or some of this model.
27:20 Was this the way it was,
27:22 was this the pattern that's coming down
27:23 and a genogram could be a wonderful tool
27:25 for this type of awareness.
27:27 And also we can't ever underestimate support groups,
27:31 support groups are wonderful.
27:33 So here's the promise for Laura from Isaiah 43:19 it says,
27:37 "Behold, I am doing a new thing,
27:39 now it springs forth, you not perceive it.
27:42 I will make a way in the wilderness
27:44 and rivers in the desert."
27:45 Thank you for joining us
27:47 for this program A Multitude of Counselors.
27:50 If you need help, cry out to Jesus
27:53 and find a good Christian counselor,
27:54 and hope to see you next time.
27:56 May God bless you abundantly.