Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer Robert Davidson (Host), Christina Cecotto, David Guerrero, Dr. Jean Wright
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000010A
00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 So glad you came to our program today.
00:32 We are devoted to helping us all
00:35 better understand mental health,
00:37 psychological issues from a biblical standpoint.
00:39 And also to present to you viable practical solutions
00:44 for some of the most perplexing problems of life.
00:47 I'm sitting here with my treatment team today,
00:49 and I want to introduce them one by one to you.
00:52 First we have David Guerrero, he is from Wisconsin
00:55 and he runs a wonderful ministry
00:57 called Rekindle the Flame, it's a very inspiring title.
01:00 And under that ministry
01:02 he functions in a number of capacities,
01:05 he's really taken very seriously
01:07 the admonition to develop ourselves,
01:10 that's we're told our first duty to God and man
01:12 is self development, Ellen White said that.
01:14 And you've taken that very seriously
01:16 and you have developed competencies
01:18 and coaching, pastoring,
01:20 counseling and now you are getting your doctoral
01:24 in naturopathy, is that right?
01:26 Yeah, that's correct.
01:27 So he is a very thoroughly rounded person.
01:29 You also teach coaching and write books
01:33 and presents seminars, you're crazy man, you.
01:35 But he says that he does well with time managements,
01:38 so I'm gonna trust him on that one.
01:40 I also appreciate the fact that we have Christina Cecotto here.
01:44 She's from Georgia and she is a licensed...
01:49 Why do I blank on this? Masters in...
01:51 Masters in social work,
01:53 there's all these letters sometimes...
01:54 MSW, right? That what they say?
01:57 LMSW and she is from Georgia,
02:00 and she works at Wildwood Lifestyle Center.
02:03 And she likes to help people through anxiety,
02:06 mood disorders and phobias
02:08 and she offers a lot in regard to lifestyle remedies
02:11 that seem to help people with mental health issues.
02:14 We also have Dr. Jean Wright.
02:16 Dr. Jean is from my hometown of Philadelphia,
02:18 he goes to my home church
02:20 and he's my home boy as they say.
02:23 And he is an amazing guy with a lot of talent
02:26 and a lot of capability.
02:28 He works for the...
02:31 He is the director of
02:33 Behavioral Health and Justice Services
02:35 in the Department of Behavioral Health
02:37 in Philadelphia.
02:38 And I can't believe I remember that one
02:40 and he also has a book out,
02:43 what's the name of the book again?
02:44 "Find Strength in Your Struggle."
02:46 "Find Strength in Your Struggle,
02:48 " I love that title
02:49 and you're shopping that book around
02:51 a lot doing some book signings
02:52 and some speaking engagements as well.
02:55 After on the side... Yes.
02:57 Yeah, we need to talk to him about time management too
02:59 and on the side Dr. Jean likes to work
03:01 with community forgiveness and restoration,
03:04 working with the prisons... Yes.
03:05 And he has done a lot of really interesting things
03:07 in the community in that regard,
03:08 hopefully that will come up in the course of the program.
03:11 And also have my co-host here Rob Davidson,
03:15 Rob has a private practice in counseling
03:17 with Abide Counseling Network,
03:19 and he likes to help a variety of presentations
03:22 including individuals, families, couples,
03:25 he likes to help men develop servant leaderships skills
03:28 and biblical manhood and integrity,
03:31 so that is so needed in our world today
03:33 and I'm so thankful that you are here to share with us
03:36 and help direct this program.
03:38 I want to talk about our topic today,
03:40 our topic is Conflict.
03:42 Conflict is a big one, isn't it?
03:44 So a definition of conflict would be a serious disagreement
03:47 or argument.
03:48 The prevalence of conflict would be that
03:51 it is pandemic everywhere,
03:53 we have sinful human beings, we have conflict, don't we?
03:56 In fact sometimes those conflicts escalate
03:59 into what are called anthropogenic disasters,
04:02 did you know that's the technical term for a war?
04:05 An anthropogenic disaster
04:07 and just to mention one statistic,
04:10 World War II alone, 75 million people killed.
04:14 Now that's what I called conflict.
04:16 But realize that all of those conflicts
04:18 begin with emotional conflicts
04:23 and breakdowns in communication
04:25 and arguments between individuals
04:27 and then they escalate and fan out
04:29 into those anthropogenic disasters.
04:32 So I would say that the cause by and large
04:35 is poor listening.
04:37 People don't generally listen,
04:40 they typically want to advance their own agenda,
04:43 their own view, their own rights,
04:44 their own righteousness in many cases,
04:48 but they don't often listen to the other person
04:50 and take in their subjective standpoint.
04:53 We see in James 1:19 it says,
04:56 "Let every man be quick to hear,
04:58 slow to speak, and slow to wrath."
05:00 What we find is that people are generally quick to speak
05:04 and slow to hear and so they are quick to what?
05:06 Become angry.
05:08 Wrath, they're quick to escalate and typically,
05:10 if we can learn to change that around,
05:12 we can learn how to deescalate...
05:14 Is this why God gave us the two ears and the one mouth.
05:16 And one mouth, that's right. It's just a thought.
05:18 It's true, it's the symbol of what God wants
05:21 is to be really big on listening
05:22 and kind of slow on speaking.
05:24 That's powerful.
05:25 The prognosis though is always positive, right,
05:28 because Jesus heals.
05:30 People can learn how to listen
05:32 and they can learn how to resolve conflicts.
05:35 So some of the methods of resolving conflict
05:37 would be simply meeting with the person
05:40 with whom you have a conflict
05:42 and in the Spirit of Christ like love pray
05:44 and talk through the issue, we don't typically do that.
05:48 When we have a disagreement,
05:49 there is some psychological tension
05:51 that builds up and we need to release that tension.
05:54 Often we release it with another person,
05:56 instead of going to the source of the tension
05:59 and trying to release it in the context
06:01 of that disagreement with that person
06:03 and bring it to a productive conclusion
06:05 instead of a destructive conclusion
06:07 which is gossiping and backbiting
06:09 is what it often devolves into.
06:12 Now I'm not saying that in every case,
06:13 if there has been abuse and someone with
06:16 much more power has exploited a person of much less power,
06:20 I do not recommend if that person
06:22 goes directly back to the abuser
06:24 for a second helping.
06:26 I recommend that they find an advocate
06:27 and that it is resolved through advocacy,
06:30 but in most cases it's adult on adult
06:32 or brothers and sisters and we can go directly
06:34 to the source of that conflict and we can work it
06:36 through in a spirit of Christ like love.
06:38 But sometimes it's gotten beyond that point
06:40 and that's where an advocate comes in
06:43 and I'm always throwing up my hands
06:45 and saying who advocate, who will be that third person
06:48 in the conversation that will help mediate,
06:50 and that often needs to be a professional counselor,
06:53 in my experience someone who is like
06:55 literally designated in their career
06:58 to helping people through these things.
06:59 So some of the things I like to use in a counseling context
07:02 is the ear technique, E-A-R empathy
07:06 and communication is all about establishing empathy
07:09 with one another.
07:10 Empathy equals ask and reflect,
07:13 you ask questions of that person to draw them out,
07:17 that means not defensive questions like
07:19 how long have you been this stupid
07:20 or something like that.
07:21 But sincere questions, wanting to know more
07:25 about that person's subjective experience,
07:27 and also reflecting back to them
07:29 what you heard them say, and making sure that
07:31 you got it right.
07:33 And we're gonna talk more about that
07:34 I'm sure in the course of this conversation,
07:36 but also I want to bring out that the FBI uses something
07:39 called the Behavioral Change Stairway Model.
07:42 Have you guys heard of this?
07:44 So when there is a hostage situation
07:46 and someone who is trained and then the FBI goes
07:49 to deescalate that hostage situation,
07:51 they use this Behavioral Change Stairway Model
07:53 which begins with no surprise here active listening,
07:57 and on the foundation of that active listening,
08:00 they develop empathy with that person
08:02 and then on the foundation of that empathy,
08:04 they develop rapport
08:06 and on the foundation of that rapport,
08:08 they develop influence over that person
08:10 and finally when the influence is established
08:13 they get ask for behavior change,
08:14 put your gun down, come out of the hotel room,
08:17 let the people go or whatever it happens to be.
08:19 If this is used by the FBI
08:21 to deescalate hostage situations,
08:24 how much more can we use active listening and empathy
08:27 and rapport to deescalate our own conflicts.
08:30 Can I get an amen from you on that?
08:33 Amen. Amen.
08:34 Okay guys, so what have you used that has helped
08:36 in your efforts to help deescalate your own conflicts
08:39 and resolve conflict used with other people, with clients?
08:42 One thing I think that's important, Jennifer,
08:44 and I know we'll probably talk about a lot of methods
08:49 and tools that people can use in conflict,
08:53 but in today's world the reason why people can't come together
08:57 and resolve their conflict is time.
09:00 We live in a world where people are not taking the time
09:03 to listen, the time to speak.
09:05 And so one thing that I try to do
09:08 when I'm counseling a couple is I will ask the question,
09:10 how much time are you spending together
09:11 to resolve these issues?
09:13 And usually what I hear is, "Well, we don't have..."
09:17 Time. Time.
09:19 We are too busy. We're too busy.
09:21 I'm working, I'm taking care of the kids
09:23 and so what I try to help them to see that
09:25 if there's an issue, and it's just laying there
09:29 and they're just letting it lay there
09:31 and it's just laying there,
09:33 what's happening to each individual,
09:34 the emotions are building
09:37 and they're not resolving their conflict,
09:39 and then the conflict will take care of them,
09:40 because one day it's going to do what?
09:42 It's gonna explode... Explode.
09:45 So I believe helping individuals
09:47 to see the importance of spending that time together,
09:50 to come together to resolve the issue
09:51 is critical, it's crucial.
09:52 You are saying that people can't really
09:55 in the close relationship,
09:57 people can't really avoid conflict.
09:59 For instance, in the marriage you can't really avoid it
10:02 and so you are saying make it priority,
10:04 it's more important than the food you eat almost.
10:06 Yeah. Yeah.
10:08 I think that's important because
10:09 one of the things I try to do is take the emphasis
10:12 of a negative definition of conflict is.
10:15 Conflict just means a disagreement,
10:16 it means you have an opinion and I have an opinion.
10:18 I love that.
10:19 And so, if we can start there with removing
10:22 that negative connotation... Amen.
10:24 And say let's talk about our difference of opinion,
10:27 you know, that kind of softens it a little bit
10:28 and we can move forward.
10:30 It's kind of like the word confrontation.
10:31 You know, confrontation just means in the here and now,
10:34 not waiting two weeks to tell me
10:35 what I did wrong, okay.
10:37 Let's talk about what the disagreement is now
10:39 and so the conflict is actually,
10:41 it's an energy thing, it allows things to change.
10:45 A conflict allows things to change.
10:46 I love that.
10:47 So you are normalizing and really redeeming conflict.
10:50 You are not like dreading and catastrophizing,
10:52 you're saying this is a good thing,
10:54 and we can use it right, it's gonna link
10:56 to good answers, it's great.
10:57 It's a positive energy to cause change.
10:58 That's beautiful. Yeah.
11:00 And now I can relax myself and I think about, you know,
11:02 the negative part of.
11:03 So can we see it as an opportunity,
11:04 conflict is an opportunity.
11:06 It is an opportunity. Yes.
11:07 And as the Christian,
11:09 it's an opportunity to invite Christ...
11:10 Yes. Amen.
11:11 Into experience and let Him help us.
11:14 See this is why I have a team,
11:15 I feel like, and if I was up here,
11:16 I probably just be catastrophizing conflict
11:18 to telling people what a problem it was
11:19 and how to fix it.
11:21 But, you know, you are right.
11:22 It can be a problem. Yeah, I know.
11:24 Let's approach it as if it is just a disagreement.
11:26 That's right. It's an opportunity.
11:27 I love that. It's an opportunity.
11:28 This I exactly how I approach a couple
11:30 when they first come in.
11:31 I start exactly where you started there
11:33 and I really flush that out, I take my time
11:35 because they never see conflict as something positive.
11:37 Right. But I say, you know what?
11:40 If we don't have conflict, we don't get to know each other
11:42 at our core, but through conflict
11:44 we can not only get to know each other
11:46 but in the conflict itself, if it's done right
11:49 and we can teach them in the right way,
11:50 we can bond closer together.
11:52 Yes. I love that.
11:53 And then I take it to another level,
11:55 I say look at the great controversy
11:56 that we are in today.
11:58 Look at the...
11:59 In fact if we really study Revelation,
12:01 God will be closer to us in closer bonded
12:04 as Jesus is with his scars forever
12:06 because of the conflict that happened.
12:08 That's right.
12:09 But we are learning to do this conflict
12:11 together correctly.
12:13 And so and it just puts a new perspective.
12:15 You are saying that God redeems conflict?
12:17 Oh, absolutely.
12:19 To great ends and to great good.
12:21 In my experience when people never have conflict
12:24 for instance in a marriage, one person is completely
12:27 losing their individuality to the other.
12:30 And so conflict really shows
12:34 that there are two individuals there
12:35 and that is a positive.
12:37 Yeah, a relationship without conflict
12:39 is one without energy.
12:40 Yes. That's right.
12:43 And I think there is research from what I've read,
12:44 there is research that the couples that do the best,
12:47 that have the healthiest relationships
12:48 are the ones that do escalate but they know
12:50 when to back out of an escalation,
12:52 then no one is getting too hot versus the couples
12:55 that never escalate really are usually kind of,
12:57 but they're stonewalling or they're detached
12:59 or something has gone wrong in the relationship.
13:01 So we can help the couple see that's in conflict
13:04 or the individual to see that, you know,
13:06 that we're all created in God's image
13:09 and God wants to restore us into His image and in conflict,
13:15 God is trying to come in, He's asking us to invite Him
13:18 into the experience,
13:20 so He can help us to become more like Him.
13:23 Love that, love that.
13:24 One of the things that I will do
13:25 when I have a couple come in
13:27 and many times it's only one individual
13:28 while their husband and wife is at home,
13:30 when they're in the lifestyle program
13:32 is really try to get them to be connected,
13:34 redevelop their relationship with Christ
13:36 or have a deeper connection with Christ
13:38 because if I can just read this real quick
13:40 and then I'll explain more about it.
13:41 It says, "The heart filled with that love,
13:43 which thinketh no evil will not be on the watch
13:47 to notice discourtesies and grievances
13:49 of which he may be the object.
13:51 The will of God is that His love shall close the eyes,
13:54 the ears and heart
13:57 to all such provocations and to all the suggestions
13:59 with which Satan would fill them."
14:02 So if you notice the key here,
14:04 it's when they are filled with the love of Christ,
14:08 then they won't notice every little thing
14:10 because I think the conflict can sometimes be...
14:13 Exacerbated by little triggers that you could just overlook.
14:16 Love covers the multitude of sins.
14:18 Now it is necessary sometimes to,
14:20 of course to address things and not to have
14:22 all being avoided which many of us are
14:25 and so it is important to address things,
14:26 but if we're filled with that right spirit,
14:28 with the love of Jesus Christ and we're gonna have
14:30 the right spirit to be able to address those issues
14:33 that are needed to be addressed.
14:35 Christina, I love that so much.
14:36 She's gonna bring out a really good text.
14:38 I'm not gonna take the time to read all this
14:40 but what I will say to couple is before you decide
14:43 to talk about something, before we get into the head,
14:47 I want you to take the time to look at Colossians 3.
14:49 And just look at, I say the whole chapter
14:52 but it's particularly verses 12 through, it looks like 17.
14:58 Oh, my goodness that just softens the spirit,
15:00 I can almost see it on their faces
15:01 when we take the time to read that.
15:03 Oh, can you read just a little bit of it?
15:04 Oh, sure. Yeah.
15:06 "Therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved,
15:08 put on tender mercies, kindness, humility,
15:11 meekness, longsuffering, bearing with one another,
15:14 and forgiving one another,
15:15 if anyone has a complaint against another,
15:18 even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.
15:21 But above all these things put on love,
15:23 which is the bond of perfection.
15:25 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts,
15:27 to which also you were called in one body and be thankful
15:30 and let the word of Christ dwell
15:34 in you richly in all wisdom,
15:36 teaching and admonishing one another in psalms
15:38 and hymns and spiritual songs,
15:39 singing with grace in your hearts and on and..."
15:42 Just hearing that, I feel my heart softened
15:45 toward people that I have conflict with.
15:48 I'm just being honest. Amen.
15:49 Yeah, it's the spirit working before we actually get it to.
15:52 And I think to that, you know, one needs to,
15:55 what I tell people is that when they experience a conflict
15:58 that they might need to take a little time out.
16:01 And they might need to go away, pray,
16:03 be on their knees and spend time with God
16:05 until they have that, the spirit of God,
16:07 until they are, have the Lord's love in their heart
16:10 and then they can go out and address it
16:12 in the right spirit.
16:14 So it does take some time, it doesn't mean that
16:16 we have to address it right when it happens,
16:17 it does sometimes take, sometime to be able to do that.
16:21 And listening is key because the verse started put on
16:24 and some of the questions that we get from people, well,
16:26 how do I put that on, just what she just explain
16:28 how to do it.
16:29 Come aside, pray,
16:30 ask for the baptism of the Holy Spirit
16:32 and filling God's spirit, so I can put that on
16:34 and then I could come out
16:35 and ready equipped by the spirit, yeah.
16:37 Be with Jesus, day by day, moment by moment,
16:39 we can't do anything right without Him.
16:41 I think another key is to
16:43 understand your intension with trying to resolve a conflict.
16:48 What is your intension and especially with couples,
16:49 is your intension to win the argument,
16:52 you know, what is your intension?
16:54 You know, with love and mercy,
16:56 your intension should be to resolve our love
16:59 and resolve our commitment to one another.
17:02 And to understand the other's heart
17:04 rather than to justify ourselves.
17:05 Save the relationship. Yeah.
17:07 And you say something in another program about,
17:08 you know, defending ourselves and we just take 20 minutes
17:11 to just be quiet and listen
17:12 to what the other person has said and not respond,
17:14 there is no need for self defense
17:16 if I'm in this with you.
17:18 And so what is my intension? Yeah.
17:19 You know, it shouldn't be to win.
17:22 It should be for us to move forward.
17:24 That's beautiful.
17:25 Oh, boy, that's like an arrow to my heart.
17:27 Real quick, just real quick, Jennifer,
17:29 'cause this is a powerful point,
17:31 when I'm counseling couples,
17:32 when I'm doing marriage coaching,
17:34 one thing that is key and it seems to help is I say,
17:37 let's look at, let's focus on counseling the marriage,
17:40 let's focus on coaching the marriage,
17:42 and it takes...
17:46 Takes two and it takes their eyes off each other
17:47 and on to the marriage,
17:49 what we have to do to fix that marriage?
17:50 And that's beautiful.
17:52 I like that, yeah. That's good.
17:53 Very quickly I'm gonna do this presenting problem.
17:56 It says here in their 60s, upper middle class and Hispanic
17:59 Mr. and Mrs. Fernando reporting longstanding conflict
18:02 with their ex best friends which are actually
18:05 Mrs. Fernando's sister and husband the Acostas.
18:07 The couples came to the area 20 years before
18:11 to plant a church in order to reach
18:13 the Hispanic population in the city.
18:15 All went well until the church voted Mr. Fernando
18:17 into the position of lay pastor of the church
18:20 because the same honor was not extended to Mr. Acosta,
18:23 he wrestled with her feelings.
18:25 As you chat with Mr. Fernando, you sense that
18:28 his approach to the situation could have been more sensitive
18:31 and gracious in a very delicate situation.
18:34 Mrs. Fernando is quite for most of the session,
18:37 how do you proceed?
18:39 I just want to say some real quick
18:40 and that is that these presenting problems,
18:42 you know, resemble to some of the things
18:44 that I've worked with,
18:46 and this particular couple hadn't spoken
18:50 to the other couple for 12 years.
18:54 And of course, using the reflective listening
18:56 but also praying for the Holy Spirit
18:58 for over several days, the ice finally broke
19:01 and this couple just they loved each other really
19:04 and all this conflict that piled up,
19:06 that was just so gratifying for me to see that breakthrough
19:10 and that they sat down together,
19:11 start chatting like old friends,
19:13 it was just so meaningful.
19:14 Shows you how powerful heart feelings can be.
19:16 Yes. Oh, my goodness.
19:18 Yes. Yeah.
19:19 And the feelings, oh, my goodness,
19:21 you know before we can resolve any conflict,
19:23 we have to hear each other's feelings
19:25 and you talked about this in the beginning
19:28 and we talked in another program
19:29 about the listener speaker technique.
19:31 This is very powerful in terms of hearing each other's
19:33 feelings with I statements,
19:35 because if we can hear each other,
19:37 we don't have to agree but we're hearing
19:40 or validating that the other person's feelings
19:42 are real to them
19:44 and then this softens the mood before we even attempt
19:47 to get into resolving the conflict,
19:49 we have to hear one another.
19:50 So what happened here was Mr. Fernando got the position
19:55 and Mr. Acosta didn't and there was,
19:57 it was a delicate situation,
19:58 it was a difficult situation right there,
19:59 but Mr. Fernando's insensitivity to that
20:02 and Mr. Acosta's inability to just admit,
20:06 my feelings are wounded, I'm feeling, you know,
20:08 hurt really compounded the situation very quickly,
20:11 so what is it about actually putting your feelings
20:14 into words that is so helpful
20:17 because people do communicate their feelings
20:20 whether they put them into words or not.
20:22 Here you see communicated by, I'm not talking to you,
20:25 you know, stonewalling, you know,
20:27 what is it about putting him into words, just help me...
20:29 We'll start with I statements. Yeah.
20:32 You know, and sometimes when you start...
20:34 What is it about an I statement though?
20:35 'Cause I'm owning and I'm accountable for bad feeling.
20:37 Exactly, exactly.
20:38 When I seems like obvious...
20:41 But not, I mean, maybe the person may think oh,
20:42 it's obvious that they know how I feel.
20:45 I don't really need to say anything
20:46 but in fact nobody knows...
20:48 Right. That's right.
20:49 And so it's actually very important to say that
20:51 but I do want to say there is a balance of course,
20:53 we are not to be subdued to our,
20:55 our emotions are not to be in control of us
20:57 but we are to root out on holding emotions.
21:00 And so we do need to identify emotions
21:02 so that they can be better though,
21:04 and they can be resolved.
21:05 But if I'm in a situation like this
21:06 and I'm genuinely wounded
21:08 and maybe by lack of maturity but it's not gonna help for me
21:12 to go, oh, I shouldn't feel that way,
21:14 so I'm just gonna pretend I don't.
21:16 There comes an integrity issue, you are who you are
21:19 and in the situation like this, I think
21:21 it would have been appropriate for Mr. Acosta to say,
21:24 you know what?
21:25 It hurts, it hurts maybe because I'm not grown up yet
21:28 but it hurts, and I just want to be honest about that.
21:30 I think that would be a lot better than I shouldn't,
21:33 you know, because that's only gonna stifle it
21:35 and then he's gonna show it another way.
21:38 And these are not just friends, these are family members.
21:41 This is like a really close relationship.
21:42 And this is Fernando, this, you know...
21:43 I don't go up to the mailman and say,
21:45 "You know how I feel today mailman
21:46 but my close friends, they need...
21:48 There is a relationship here. Exactly.
21:49 Okay, and the silence by Mrs. Fernando tells me
21:52 she was quietly supporting her husband.
21:54 But maybe didn't agree with how he handled it.
21:57 And when you look at this, yeah, why couldn't Mr. Acosta
21:59 say to a friend or family member...
22:02 You know, I worked as hard and I feel badly
22:05 that I wasn't recognized.
22:06 Yeah. My hard work wasn't recognized.
22:09 Mr. Fernando knows they did it together.
22:12 Mr. Acosta knows they did it together.
22:14 That's right.
22:15 But that's where they split out.
22:16 It needed to be talk about.
22:18 And I think our role as therapist is to be able
22:19 to identify those emotions so that we can help them
22:23 root out those unholy emotions,
22:25 that's when they can be in harmony with the...
22:27 So suppression isn't what we're going for?
22:29 No, no.
22:31 We are getting for, we're going for the...
22:32 If they're there, they are there,
22:33 if so if they're suppressed, they are still there.
22:35 So really confessing a sin really when they admit that
22:38 they are having these unholy emotions
22:39 and we can't get pass our sins unless we confess them.
22:42 And are we also helping them to identify those feelings
22:46 and to maintain them because that's very important.
22:49 You know, I have question for you and it's this.
22:52 How you were able to get them to come together?
22:55 Well, I actually went to where they lived
22:56 and spent several days with them
22:59 and it was just a little kind of a long drown out thing
23:01 but it really, it really was key just spending that time.
23:06 They set aside, you know, the chunk of days
23:09 with me to work through 'cause they knew that
23:12 they needed the help so, yeah.
23:14 And that is so important and we were taking about that
23:16 earlier and as our audience is listening,
23:20 I would encourage them, if they are having conflict
23:23 to take the time, to come together,
23:25 to resolve the issues and if they can't do it
23:27 on their own to find competent counselor
23:30 or therapist to help them to work through this.
23:31 And, you know, and it didn't like
23:33 I had made a list, they both made their grievance lists
23:36 and as we worked through,
23:38 it didn't look like it's gonna resolve,
23:39 there was one individual that he got so wounded that
23:42 it just didn't seem like it was gonna change
23:44 and so I told them, you know, you may have,
23:47 one of you may have to move away, we probably
23:49 not gonna get through all this items on the list
23:51 but all of the sudden, the Holy Spirit came out,
23:54 I really can't explain it and there was just this
23:56 softening that came, this influence it came
23:59 and the one that I thought was gonna hold out
24:01 actually said no, you know,
24:03 I was wrong took even though I got hurt.
24:04 I was wrong in the way I handle it.
24:06 And from that point forward, it just,
24:08 like the flood gates of heaven, I'm serious like opened up,
24:11 and all of a sudden this healing wave came in
24:14 and they were within a couple of hours
24:16 talking like old friends, it was truly remarkable.
24:18 Amen, amen.
24:19 Do you all find as Christian counselors
24:21 that sometimes we wonder what in the role did we do?
24:23 And all of the sudden the Holy Spirit is doing
24:25 something that, we just, we just see that
24:27 it's not really us but somehow the spirit is in the session.
24:30 Yes, He is the great counselor. That's right.
24:32 Yes, yes and we need to always invite him
24:34 into our counseling sessions, the Holy Spirit.
24:37 Amen, I know I'm helpless without Him,
24:40 I would wreck people and I know that as a counselor
24:43 so I pray with my clients, you know,
24:46 and I tell them I need God, this is why I want to pray,
24:49 you know, this is too much for me.
24:50 How important is it for us to be so abiding with Christ
24:54 to ourselves so in tune.
24:56 That's right. That's right.
24:57 Amen. Yeah, shall I recap?
24:59 Yeah, go ahead.
25:00 Okay, so you started out talking about the EAR
25:04 which is love is empathy, ask, reflecting back
25:07 and even the FBI uses this to deescalate situations.
25:10 They don't use EAR that's
25:12 I wrote but the FBI uses reflective listening.
25:15 Reflective listening. Yeah.
25:16 So that's something...
25:18 That will be cool if FBI use something
25:19 that I wrote but, you know, not yet.
25:21 So we can model that for our clients
25:23 the reflective listening and the whole bit.
25:26 I really like what you said, David,
25:27 about life is so busy that we're not taking time
25:30 to resolve our conflicts.
25:32 We just need to learn to take the time.
25:34 We talked about that.
25:35 And I love what you said, Jean, about conflict
25:39 is not a negative thing,
25:41 it doesn't have to be negative thing.
25:43 We can normalize conflict because so many couples
25:46 just hate the conflict itself but yet,
25:50 if we can put a new face on it and say that
25:53 this actually can be for our good,
25:55 if we learn how to do this the right way.
25:56 See that as an opportunity.
25:58 Absolutely. Yeah.
25:59 It can be a bonding experience...
26:01 It means people care. Yeah.
26:03 And also through the bonding we can actually learn
26:05 to know one another on a deeper level
26:08 more so than we knew each other before.
26:10 We talked about getting our spirits
26:13 not only as counselors but the couples
26:15 or whoever going through conflict
26:16 in a right spirit using scripture,
26:18 using prayer to soften the spirit.
26:21 We talked about what is our intension,
26:23 what are we thinking in conflict,
26:25 are we just in this to win?
26:28 And if we are, then we shouldn't be in a big rush
26:30 to win, we need to slow down.
26:32 I statements were talked about.
26:34 I statements are wonderful ways to get to the emotions
26:38 that each of us are feeling.
26:40 I'm feeling such and such because such and such,
26:43 and then how can we not validate
26:46 the other person's feelings.
26:48 We don't have to agree with those feelings
26:49 but those feelings are real,
26:50 so I statements are important to learn.
26:52 Emotions are critical when we want to move
26:56 towards conflict resolution, we have to do that.
27:00 Our role is to help identify those emotions as counselors.
27:04 A lot of times those emotions are just so mixed up
27:06 in the conflict that it's just a big jumble.
27:10 And then we talked lastly spending that time,
27:12 spending time to come together, letting the Holy Spirit work.
27:17 Someone said that it is better to remain silent
27:19 and be thoughtful than to speak up
27:21 and remove all doubts.
27:23 The Proverb says something similar, Proverbs 17:28,
27:27 even if the fool is thought wise, he keeps...
27:31 "Even the fool is thought wise if he keep silent,
27:34 and discerning if he holds his tongue."
27:37 I think we all agree that we need to learn
27:38 better listening skills and we've tried to help you
27:40 do that in this program of A Multitude of Counselors.
27:46 We're gonna be talking in future programs about anger,
27:49 about communication, so please join us again.
27:51 We so appreciate your support, and pray for us
27:54 as we work through some of life's
27:56 most perplexing problems in the faith
27:59 and strength of Jesus.