Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Robert Davison (Host), Christina Ceccoto, Dee Casper, Dr. Jean Wright II, Paul Coneff
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000014A
00:26 Welcome to: A Multitude of Counselors
00:29 where we face and embrace the truth
00:32 because the truth heals.
00:34 We're going to be talking today
00:36 about healing from a broken home.
00:39 So many are affected by divorce,
00:41 in fact, I would say that
00:44 there are a couple of different kinds of divorce...
00:46 one is obviously the legal dissolution of a marriage
00:49 but I think there are many couples
00:51 that are estranged from one another
00:53 and remain legally intact,
00:55 at any rate, divorce is harmful
00:58 especially to the children affected by it.
01:01 In fact, about half of children in America
01:04 will see their parents' divorce
01:07 and what we find in the research is that
01:10 these divorces are correlated with much harm
01:13 that comes to children,
01:15 for instance, children tend to face more poverty
01:17 when they've been through parental divorce.
01:19 Children from divorced homes tend to have
01:22 more mental health and physical health problems,
01:26 they tend to have poor academics,
01:28 they tend to suffer more financially
01:30 in many, many ways... children struggle...
01:32 we think because of divorce
01:34 now, I'm not saying this
01:35 to make individuals that have divorced
01:38 feel any more guilty than they probably already feel,
01:40 I'm saying this because we want to come alongside these children
01:44 we want to come alongside these adult children
01:47 who have suffered because their parents divorced
01:49 and we want to tell them, "We love you... "
01:51 and we want to share with them
01:53 opportunities for healing
01:54 and so, in order to do that, we're going to be talking to
01:58 Dee Casper today,
02:00 so I want to introduce my guest and my panel...
02:03 I have Dee Casper who is going to be our guest today
02:06 talking about coming from a broken home
02:07 and how he coped with that
02:09 and I want to introduce our therapist today.
02:12 Paul Coneff, is a Marriage and Family Therapist,
02:15 we've got Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia
02:18 and we've got Professional Counselor, Christina Cecotto.
02:22 So, Dee... tell us what happened.
02:27 So, when I was about 3 or 4, my parents got divorced,
02:31 my mom had been divorced once before then
02:33 and she had a difficult upbringing...
02:36 as far as intimacy in the home from her mother's...
02:38 had a biological mother that left her
02:40 and then, her adopted mother who married her father...
02:43 just never really felt loved and nurtured from her.
02:47 So there's a lot of damage in her life, okay.
02:49 Yes, so that kind of led to
02:51 looking for things in her spouses
02:52 that she wasn't going to find,
02:54 that she didn't receive from her parents
02:56 so, she was divorced once, had a son with her first husband
02:59 they were divorced, the father got custody
03:01 so she was without the son...
03:03 and she married my dad,
03:04 my dad was the caretaker for my great-grandfather
03:07 who had Alzheimer's...
03:08 that's a very difficult environment to be in
03:10 as newlyweds and... with a young child
03:12 plus the battles that she was facing in other things
03:15 and so she eventually left,
03:17 the third husband she had...
03:18 she's actually been married and divorced seven times total
03:21 but the third husband she had after my dad...
03:24 she had a severe, severe encounter with domestic abuse,
03:28 I don't know how many times it occurred
03:31 but there was one really, really, really brutal one and...
03:36 How did you find out about it?
03:37 So my grandfather... my dad's dad
03:39 lived about a mile or two from where she lived
03:41 in the Government Projects,
03:42 Government... subsidized housing or whatever
03:46 and he dropped me off...
03:48 because she didn't have custody...
03:49 and she would tell you that was in my best interest too
03:51 but... so I was visiting my grandparents
03:54 and since I was near where mom was... they dropped me off
03:55 and when she opened the door, she was purple...
03:57 she's swollen... she's blue...
03:59 she's not the person I know
04:00 and she told me at that time that she fell down the stairs,
04:03 you know, that she just tripped and fell,
04:05 my grandfather wasn't stupid he called the cops immediately
04:08 and the guy was taken off to prison
04:10 and I never saw him again... from then
04:14 but the divorce and then this...
04:17 and the last main trigger where...
04:20 my mom's cousin was one who was really big in like,
04:23 horror movies and scary movies
04:25 and alien and Freddy Krueger and all kinds of...
04:28 Jurassic Park and other things,
04:29 as a young mind... that's already feeling scared
04:32 because of what I saw,
04:33 I didn't see it happen to mom but I saw the after-effects
04:36 and as a child... I knew... still knew...
04:39 Did you know consciously
04:40 or did you just sort of know unconsciously
04:43 and later realized what had happened to mom...
04:45 I don't remember the length of time
04:47 on when she told me what really happened,
04:48 I don't think it was too terribly long...
04:50 but I know that internally there was fear... for sure...
04:53 something happened that I knew something was wrong,
04:55 this wasn't that mom had an accident,
04:57 even as a child... as a five-year-old...
04:59 I knew something... didn't know how to communicate it,
05:03 didn't know how to phrase it,
05:04 or didn't know how to wrap my mind around it
05:06 but I was certainly aware that something had happened
05:09 but whenever my mom would be doing some college classes,
05:11 I'd be with her cousin and...
05:12 watching all these terrifying movies as a very small child,
05:15 I just... I kind of had this...
05:17 the cards kind of stacked against me
05:19 in a sense of... a lot of things to bring a lot of fear,
05:21 a lot of feelings of being unloved,
05:24 a lot of feelings of rejection and just...
05:27 it caused a lot of difficulty for me,
05:29 certainly whenever I... from that point forward
05:31 of... fear has kind of been one of the big underlying situations
05:35 that I have kind of better tied it to
05:37 because, "Am I going to be rejected,
05:39 am I going to be in danger, am I safe,
05:41 am I loved, am I nurtured?"
05:43 My mom, in my upbringing from then on...
05:46 I felt more like a parent to her than she was to me,
05:48 I felt like she was kind of using me to feel normal
05:51 because I was something that was innocent
05:54 and I didn't have the battles that she was having
05:56 but was starting to receive
05:58 the fruits of the battle that she was having,
06:00 I don't think she fully knew that at the time,
06:02 but... so when would be clinging or other things,
06:05 I just felt like I didn't want that...
06:07 I was starved for intimacy but I didn't want the way
06:09 that she was trying to show me intimacy either
06:12 because, again, I just felt used at the time
06:14 and even as a child...
06:15 I couldn't wrap my mind around that fully...
06:17 looking back I know that that's what it was...
06:19 but at that time, I just... didn't...
06:20 You don't even have the words to describe
06:23 what was going on, yeah...
06:24 And shouldn't really, you're not...
06:26 my mental faculties aren't there to a point
06:28 that should be able to process it,
06:30 so that was a lot of what happened with my upbringing,
06:32 I was a latchkey kid... my dad was a single parent
06:35 and he married once again...
06:38 just thinking that he needed a woman in the house for me...
06:40 it just wasn't a good fit,
06:42 I didn't get along with the kids and with her, really,
06:44 either admit to that and did...
06:46 and so he would have to work to provide for the home
06:48 so I had a lot of unsupervised time
06:50 and so things I ended up doing
06:52 as a response to the fear that I was feeling
06:55 and a lack of power...
06:57 a lack of control... was that...
06:58 I started stealing at the age of five...
07:00 like, I was stealing toys and things from stores
07:02 and who's going to suspect a kid
07:04 and it was just because it was a way for me to be in control
07:07 and I could get something I wanted...
07:09 to make me feel good and I didn't have any money
07:10 so that was just the way that I did it
07:12 and lying a lot...
07:14 and I realize looking back again...
07:15 that both of those were means for me
07:17 just trying to feel in control,
07:18 to feel safe... that I'm not going to be disappointed again,
07:21 I can control the circumstances
07:23 so that I won't end up being hurt
07:24 and then they eventually diagnosed me
07:27 when I was in School...
07:28 because I was sharpening my pencil all the time
07:29 and just couldn't sit still... because all the internal things,
07:33 I didn't know it at the time but they put me on Ritalin...
07:35 What did they diagnose you with?
07:38 Oh, ADD... okay... sharpening your pencil all the time...
07:41 that wasn't OCD... or...?
07:42 Or do you kind of have both?
07:43 I just hated school...
07:45 I just wanted any excuse to get up and get out.
07:47 Looking back, I do see that the Ritalin...
07:49 the OCD in my experience too for sure,
07:52 just... you know...
07:54 being more attentive about things
07:56 you don't really need to be that attentive...
07:58 you know... things like that...
07:59 I still wrestle... "Did I locked my car or not?"
08:01 Like, even though I know
08:02 I locked my car... just... things like that...
08:03 I still see some side effects of that
08:05 but those were things that came into my experience
08:07 and I can look back now and realize
08:08 that that was tied to my interactions as a kid.
08:11 So there are a lot of lenses
08:12 through which we can look at this situation,
08:14 one of them is... I like brain science
08:16 and your Amygdala
08:18 which is the emotional part of your brain
08:20 and the one that really mediates fear
08:21 is basically assaulted by all of these traumatic events
08:25 but then, in addition to that, which is often the case,
08:28 you don't have those stabilizing bonds in your life
08:31 that help calm the emotional system
08:34 and as a result, you're just in overdrive mode for years.
08:37 That was exactly it, that I didn't...
08:39 my dad did what he could
08:41 and he had been in an environment
08:42 that wasn't the easiest either from one of his parents...
08:45 it was just... he didn't really receive all the nurturing
08:48 that he could have received
08:49 and so neither of my...
08:50 and neither of them really grew up
08:52 having strong spiritual experiences themselves
08:55 so neither were really equipped to give me what I needed
08:58 in that sense...
08:59 I didn't know about love languages at that stage
09:01 and how it worked, obviously,
09:02 looking back I saw that the
09:04 things that my heart was wired for,
09:05 I wasn't receiving as much
09:07 so just feeling deprived of intimacy
09:10 and even the extended family...
09:12 there wasn't a lot of intimacy there,
09:13 cordial... friendly... but not intimate...
09:16 and so I was running to whatever I could
09:18 to find some of those voids to be filled.
09:20 Have you been able to revisit this
09:21 now that you're an adult
09:23 and you have connected the dots between these events
09:25 and how they affected you...
09:26 were you ever able to go to your mother, for instance,
09:30 and say... you know...
09:32 as... after my conversion,
09:33 my dad realized that he has a need for something more,
09:36 9... 11... woke him up and he had an encounter with God
09:39 and he started loving me into a relationship with God
09:42 which is what I had been looking for all along...
09:44 all the things I didn't feel like I received...
09:46 I was getting even more of at that time
09:49 I was being pointed to God
09:50 so basically God found me and brought me to Himself
09:52 through a relationship I was going through with my dad
09:55 so, I grew that bond...
09:57 but with my mom, I didn't really have the...
09:58 we would have time together but like that sense of bond... no...
10:01 till I was about 27 once I was working in ministry
10:04 and I had forgiven my mother but God convicted me
10:07 that I needed to tell her that I forgave her
10:09 and so, after her 7th divorce,
10:13 she went to go live with her parents,
10:14 and by the grace of God,
10:16 Jesus is the 8th husband, by-the-way...
10:17 she's found God... she had a relationship with Jesus
10:20 and she's finding what she didn't find before
10:22 so, in this encounter with her,
10:25 I was a 27-year-old, I think, in 2013...
10:27 and I sat her down, I said,
10:30 "These are the things that I have wrestled with in my life
10:32 and they were directly tied to the exposures I had
10:35 as a child... with you...
10:36 and the things that you exposed me to
10:38 but I want you to know that I forgive you... "
10:41 and in that moment, we cried together
10:43 and we prayed together
10:45 and I gained them all... for the first time in my life
10:47 as a 27-year-old man.
10:48 Because like... awww... that's so beautiful.
10:51 Like, we often... as counselors, like...
10:53 try to encourage those kinds of conversations...
10:56 our clients come... they've really been damaged...
10:59 for instance, in their homes...
11:00 and we try to encourage those kinds of conversations
11:03 but a lot of times it goes very badly
11:04 so, or... or... it's not even worth trying at all
11:07 because of the lack of responsiveness
11:09 on the part of the other so you...
11:10 you were able to have a successful conversation...
11:14 healing conversation with your mother
11:15 which you feel... you said like you've gained a mother.
11:18 Yeah, it changed everything
11:20 and one of the immediate things that came as a result of that
11:22 was that she started writing letters to everyone in her life
11:24 ex-husbands... people that she had hurt...
11:26 to try to make things right
11:28 and so, it was a dramatic change in her...
11:31 in fact, she's already starting to want to come to God,
11:33 she realized that was the missing component
11:36 but to have this... really was the platform
11:38 that opened everything for her.
11:39 So, obviously that wasn't the end of the story
11:43 because when you have an assault
11:45 on the emotional system like that when you're so young,
11:48 often we wrestle with it into our adult years
11:52 and now you're functioning... you're up and running...
11:54 but was it really gone, was everything really fixed
11:57 or did you need more help?
11:58 I thought it was... I told people for years...
12:01 I was working in ministry about my upbringing
12:03 and that it had never bothered me.
12:05 I was fully convinced of this for years
12:07 and about 14- to 15-months ago,
12:10 Paul here actually was doing a program
12:13 with someone else at 3ABN
12:17 and a friend of mine had told me to read his book 2 years earlier
12:19 in the summer... and I thought, "Ehhh... "
12:22 I know some other people that have problems
12:24 I may read it for them... because I assumed
12:26 that I'm in ministry to help people
12:28 with their problems, I don't have problems,
12:29 I'm here to help them with their problems...
12:30 Paul: You're the only one that does that...
12:32 Dee: Yeah, I'm sure... it was just me...
12:34 Paul: None of us have ever fallen into that trap...
12:37 Dee: And so, in my situation, I didn't read the book
12:39 and God, in His mercy, didn't give up on me
12:42 and so, a mutual friend of ours
12:44 told me that Paul was coming to 3ABN...
12:46 my ministry is located right next door...
12:47 and I said, "Yeah, have him come over... "
12:49 and one of the things that Paul talked about...
12:51 he went kind of quickly through what he does
12:54 and it took a while for me to wrap my mind around it
12:57 even though I'm a Bible student
12:59 and when I had that situation, it ended up having me...
13:01 what happened to me was,
13:04 he said that all the addictions that we have in our experience
13:06 are us trying to numb pain that we're feeling in our lives
13:08 and it was like the most profound thing
13:10 I'd ever heard in my life
13:12 I knew immediately that whatever this guy is talking about,
13:14 is what I've been looking for my whole life,
13:15 I don't know what it means,
13:17 I don't understand it but I know that this is what I need,
13:19 and as I was traveling out east,
13:22 I was listening to the YouTube videos that he'd produced,
13:24 and it was like someone yanked back the shower curtain
13:27 and I saw a "Dee" that I did not know existed
13:30 for 25 out of my 30 years.
13:32 Never knew... and I started to realize
13:35 the deep wounds that I had and the needs that I had
13:37 and so, the question I had was,
13:39 "Well, if all addictions and things
13:40 come from pain that we're feeling,
13:42 where is the pain?"
13:44 And God took me back to Ground Zero
13:46 and all the strongholds that were existing in my experience
13:48 started around the same time when I was five...
13:51 whenever mom got roughed up by that guy...
13:53 and it just kind of bubbled from there...
13:55 so that was... that was my "ah ha" moment
13:58 and it began the process of me digging deeper,
14:00 Paul and I have prayed together with some of my story,
14:02 I read his book... and this has helped me to better understand
14:06 who I am... my true identity in Jesus...
14:08 and I know that Jesus could relate
14:09 to what I had gone through
14:11 and it carried my shame, He carried my fear, my guilt...
14:14 anything... to death on the cross
14:16 and rose again to give me a new identity in Jesus
14:18 and it's been life-changing for me,
14:20 I've spent my ministry committing...
14:21 to telling that message now for the last year-and-a-half
14:24 to young people with brokenness...
14:25 Powerful, so guys, weigh in... what do you think?
14:28 I know you've been very
14:29 intimately involved in this situation
14:31 and what do you think? Give us your thoughts.
14:35 You're talking a lot about the fears
14:37 and we want to honor those
14:38 and the shame and the guilt... those are feelings...
14:40 and that's important...
14:42 and for me... Jesus said,
14:43 "Out of the heart come sinful thoughts...
14:44 Satan is the father of lies... "
14:46 so, if we can deal with those negative thoughts
14:48 behind the feelings and behaviors...
14:49 then I think we can get more healing
14:51 and that's where... I think...
14:53 to me... when you're bringing in Jesus...
14:55 suffering... being tempted... going...
14:57 he has gone through what he has gone through...
14:59 with fear and shame...
15:00 Jesus was alone, abandoned, betrayed, abused,
15:02 tempted and that was pain,
15:04 where I find the power is,
15:05 it's an easy way to build a bridge
15:07 from Jesus' story... to his story...
15:08 He was tempted without sin,
15:10 yet He was tempted that way to identify with him
15:12 and it makes Him more "a personal Jesus. "
15:14 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
15:15 So, I have a question for you Dee,
15:16 I'm wondering... "How did you practically
15:20 regain that new identity in Christ?"
15:23 The first was to know that Jesus could relate to me...
15:25 what those specific things were
15:27 and then how to receive the healing that Christ earned
15:30 by being tempted in the same way and succeeding
15:33 and so, Paul, basically has a prayer ministry
15:36 where he teaches people how to, kind of,
15:38 compose a prayer, kind of... write a prayer
15:40 based upon their experience,
15:42 how has Jesus gone through something similar
15:44 so what lies... what thoughts go through your mind...
15:47 of your particular struggles
15:50 and then he puts actions... what are actions...
15:52 or what are events that happen in Jesus' life,
15:54 where He would be tempted to have those same thoughts
15:57 and then, you begin learning a process
15:59 of how to pray Christ's experience into yours...
16:02 and I remember, one of the things...
16:04 that you talked about in your book,
16:05 or at least that God kind of made application for...
16:08 from what I read in the book
16:09 was envisioning God being there
16:12 and Jesus being beside you in those moments
16:14 where you were freed... and where you were hurt...
16:16 and I remember,
16:18 I found a tremendous amount of healing in a moment...
16:19 after seeing that.
16:21 So, what's the difference between that and what they call,
16:22 New Age visioning... type of thing?
16:25 Help us understand the difference.
16:27 For me it's a difference between
16:28 Jesus having gone through the experience to identify with us
16:31 which was real and part of history
16:33 as a Christian... we believe that
16:34 versus me trying to imagine something...
16:36 Jennifer: That didn't exist.
16:38 Paul: Like, some people will say,
16:39 "Well, imagine you were abused...
16:40 imagine a strong man came and rescued you... "
16:43 the problem is, there's no rescue.
16:44 Jennifer: There was no strong man.
16:45 Paul: And then they say, "You're the strong man... or woman... "
16:48 well, number one... no... no... no strong...
16:51 if a girl has been abused, no one rescued her...
16:54 and she wasn't strong enough to stop it,
16:55 we're not blaming her, I'm just saying...
16:57 those to me are false...
16:59 we're trying to overcome negative thoughts
17:00 and negative messages,
17:02 with another story that's not true.
17:04 Right, so it's grounded in reality,
17:06 it's not grounded in fantasy.
17:08 Jesus was actually there with me when I went through it
17:11 and so, to find healing in that chapter
17:14 that when I felt unsafe...
17:15 whenever I felt rejected or unloved,
17:17 that actually isn't true
17:18 and to have that redefine my reality...
17:21 based upon something that's Biblically provable,
17:23 was life changing for me and liberating
17:25 that I can tell my story and not feel ashamed anymore.
17:28 Well, for example in Revelation 13, it says,
17:31 "He's a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... "
17:33 because some people say,
17:34 "Well, He was only abused for a few hours... it was bad...
17:36 it was only a few hours... it was a day... "
17:38 "He's a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... "
17:40 so somehow as God...
17:42 He took all the abuse... all the abandonment...
17:44 all the betrayal... all the rejection...
17:46 into his suffering, death and resurrection.
17:48 So we want to...
17:49 I don't know that I would use the word, "Visualization"
17:52 because that's not what we...
17:53 It's a trigger word... people are going to pick out
17:55 and think it's "New Age"
17:56 but there's an appropriate use of the imagination
17:58 that's very remedial.
18:00 I would say, "Where in His story did He go through
18:01 similar experiences to identify with me
18:03 so that I would know,
18:05 experientially in my mind and heart,
18:07 which is a new covenant
18:08 not just my head but in my mind and my heart
18:10 He was there with me
18:12 and what does He want me to know about that. "
18:14 This is why, actually it says that Enoch cultivated...
18:18 or some people will pronounce "Enoch" in a different way,
18:21 but... that he cultivated the "presence of God"
18:25 and when I read that, I was just like,
18:26 "Wow! that's really interesting,
18:28 'cultivated the presence of God... '"
18:29 because the presence of God is there...
18:30 I think it's just that we don't...
18:32 we're intentional about remembering,
18:34 "He was right here with us... "
18:35 and we need to make sure that we remember that.
18:38 She said that we should spend a thoughtful hour every day
18:40 thinking about the closing scenes of Christ's life
18:44 using our imagination...
18:45 but the difference is, we're not making it up,
18:49 we're not thinking about Biblical meditation,
18:51 we're thinking about what He went through,
18:54 at every step of His journey to be there with us.
18:56 See, I believe everything that is working in the world,
18:59 has... if it's working... if it's indeed working...
19:02 in a truly therapeutic way has...
19:04 it's traceable back to a Biblical principle,
19:07 so you're talking about being aware of the presence of God,
19:11 they call that "mindfulness"
19:12 but they're mindful of things that aren't Biblically based
19:15 so to me... like the Biblical form of mindfulness
19:18 is way far beyond anything the world can offer,
19:21 so people are really getting a little bit of the fact,
19:24 they can have profound effect
19:26 if they would trace that back to the Biblical principle
19:28 that is at work,
19:30 so, do you, in your work recommend that people
19:34 confront parents
19:37 when they've experienced difficulties
19:39 because of their parents... do you run across any of this
19:41 and are there times when people shouldn't
19:43 and times when they should?
19:44 Absolutely, Jennifer, I think it's very important
19:47 that people... first before going to confront a parent,
19:50 experience their own healing
19:52 and that's the positive thing that can come out of this,
19:54 when you go to confront somebody
19:55 that you don't come... with... with a negative attitude
19:58 or you don't come with trying to make them regret
20:02 any of the things that have happened,
20:03 but you're trying to go with them,
20:04 to say, "I have found healing and I'm forgiving you,
20:07 let me tell you what and how it happened... "
20:08 and I think that's important
20:10 the other thing... Dee, it struck me that...
20:12 that when you remembered back to five-years-old...
20:14 how all this happened,
20:15 the inter-generational transference,
20:16 of some of the negative emotions
20:18 and the trauma that you experienced
20:19 and then you came full circle
20:21 with inter-generational transference of positive things
20:24 like, your father... coming to Christ...
20:26 you coming to Christ...
20:27 your mother eventually coming to Christ,
20:29 and so, maybe if you could share some of that with us
20:31 about how that happened and the impact on your ministry.
20:33 For sure, I recognized by seeing the root issues,
20:36 it actually fixed some problems that I was still causing
20:39 later in life... while in ministry
20:41 I came to realize that inter-personal differences
20:44 that I was having with people,
20:45 not lots of them... but still I'd have some moments
20:47 or, I would still have the tendency
20:49 to want to be in control to protect myself
20:53 through finding healing this way,
20:54 I've learned to handle situations
20:56 like the interpersonal relationships
20:57 in a far different way
20:59 so it's brought continued healing
21:00 and future healing for other people too
21:02 so I won't hurt them now.
21:03 So, how do you know if someone's ready
21:05 for you to talk to them?
21:07 Jean: That's an excellent question.
21:08 Jennifer: Yeah, like, you want to go...
21:10 you feel like you're at a place where you're healed enough
21:13 and forgiving enough to go to the person
21:14 and have that needed-but-difficult discussion.
21:17 Jean: Yeah, Christine and I were talking about that.
21:19 Christine: Yeah, if I may weigh in on that,
21:21 I think the Holy Spirit is really the only One
21:23 that can tell us when we're ready for that,
21:26 but, also we can kind of gauge by our emotions,
21:28 "Are we still experiencing a lot of animosity toward the person?"
21:31 If we are, then if we go to that person
21:33 it's more than likely going to be a worse experience
21:36 than if we went when we had that healing already
21:39 we could confront them in love
21:40 and be able to actually have a dialogue that's productive.
21:44 So, I like that if it's the Holy Spirit
21:46 because the Holy Spirit is a person,
21:47 you know, and the Holy Spirit is relational
21:50 and so, He can lead us
21:51 to make sure that there's a good outcome.
21:54 Do you think there's a place for human agencies
21:57 i. e. Counselors... Groups...
21:58 people supporting you through this difficult process
22:02 and providing counsel for you,
22:04 there's safety in a multitude of counselors
22:06 and then, giving you emotional support
22:08 through what has all been a very traumatic event.
22:10 Going back to the source of trauma
22:12 and trying to work through
22:13 and there's no guarantee of how it's going to turn out
22:15 so, we'll be...
22:17 A multitude of counselors, that will be great...
22:18 Do you like counseling?
22:19 That would be a good show.
22:21 That would be a good program.
22:22 We should suggest that to 3ABN.
22:23 Well, I appreciate it because
22:25 I've had people come along my journey and help me
22:26 when someone that I'm going to make amends with...
22:29 forgives, or she forgives... isn't ready...
22:32 and I think, coming in, Jesus said,
22:35 "Where two or three are gathered, I am there... "
22:37 He said, "Be wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove... "
22:40 and so in hurting relationships,
22:42 sometimes, some of my journey is going to be
22:45 God working with me alone.
22:46 "We should pray privately, I'll reward you openly. "
22:49 He also said, "Where two or three are gathered in my name"
22:51 it's not "either... or... "
22:52 a lot of times, we mixed up... either... or...
22:54 I think it should be both and...
22:56 and I've had people pray with me lead to a lot of healing...
22:59 to let me to go and like, talk with my dad...
23:01 so God was using other people, we have Support Groups,
23:04 we have Counselors that can help us ask questions
23:07 and pray with us and then take some time
23:09 and say, "God, how are you leading me
23:11 in this journey right now, what's the next step?"
23:13 And they can also be very helpful in helping us not walk
23:16 even ignorantly, even if we have had healing,
23:19 we can ignorantly say things that are...
23:21 make the situation worse,
23:22 I recently went through a situation
23:24 where I was writing someone a letter,
23:26 touchy situation... and I had two friends
23:28 that I shared it with... say, "No, don't... "
23:31 and I was so glad I listened to them
23:33 because it turned out to be totally the wrong approach,
23:36 Paul: So we get that feedback
23:37 and I would decide with the person I'd talk about
23:39 some of the wrong ways we can go if we're not healed...
23:41 if I go and my focus is more in you being wrong
23:44 than my journey of healing...
23:46 when Dee went,
23:47 he really wasn't about his mom being bad and wrong,
23:48 it was about his journey and then his dad gets a blessing
23:52 he gets a blessing, his mom starts writing to people
23:54 so now you have a multi-generational pattern
23:57 of blessings going forward...
23:58 you know, we say, "Pay it forward... "
24:00 so it can work both ways... the devil doesn't want that...
24:03 Jennifer: Wait, go back to the part about...
24:05 so, he didn't just go to... what did you say?
24:08 Paul: He didn't go to his mom and say,
24:09 "Here's what you did that's wrong
24:10 and I am high-and-mighty
24:12 and I am self-righteous and I'm forgiving you. "
24:13 So what did he go to his mom to say?
24:15 He went and talked about his journey,
24:16 how he had been hurt and how he is getting healing
24:19 so he's telling a story about his journey
24:22 as opposed to, "You're wrong,
24:24 here's what you did to hurt me... "
24:26 that's a different move.
24:27 So what's the difference between those two things,
24:30 isn't here what we call, "internal locus of control"
24:31 where you're taking responsibility,
24:32 for your own emotions... your own experience
24:34 within the context of what that person did to you
24:36 and you're saying,
24:37 "Here's... here... I'm owning myself... and my...
24:40 I'm taking responsibility for my experience
24:42 let me share it with you
24:43 because I want to have a relationship with you. "
24:45 Jean and I have been talking about that off-camera
24:46 where... maybe you can share, Jean,
24:48 the language that Dee was using as he was sharing.
24:51 Yeah, he was using "I" statements.
24:53 Jennifer: That's right.
24:54 Jean: And that's very powerful
24:56 and to your point about pointing at people...
24:57 sometimes your words are pointing at people
24:59 you're accusatory in your tone...
25:01 in your words... in your blaming...
25:02 whereas what Dee was sharing with us was,
25:04 "I had an experience... this is my journey... "
25:07 and this is how you play the role in it, certainly,
25:10 but I think that using the "I" statements
25:13 and owning it as Jennifer stated
25:15 is not only healing for the individual,
25:17 it also allows the person to come in
25:19 and be a part of the story with you
25:20 understanding that I don't have to be defensive
25:22 and I think when you put people in the defensive mode,
25:25 it kind of tweaks the conversation
25:28 in a way that you don't want it to go to Christina's...
25:30 So if I come to you and share, "You know Jean, you hurt me...
25:32 and I'm here to forgive you... "
25:33 is that going to build a bridge or is that going to build walls?
25:37 Jean: I need a little context first.
25:38 Jennifer: So what you do is you say,
25:40 "I experienced pain when you said that... "
25:43 and can you put the best construction on it and say,
25:46 "I know you were dealing with your own stuff
25:48 and did not mean to have that effect on me... "
25:49 could you say that in most cases?
25:51 Yeah, yeah... and that's what you said, Dee
25:53 when you were talking to her... his mother...
25:54 he would say, "I knew you were going through
25:56 A, B, C and D... and this is how it affected me"
25:59 and so, he was showing empathy to his mother's journey
26:03 and into the difficulties that his mother had
26:04 and expressed to her...
26:06 "This is how what you went through
26:07 impacted me as a child. "
26:09 And, she was in a place where she was able to receive it.
26:12 Six months later... a month earlier...
26:14 a year earlier wouldn't be...
26:16 so the Holy Spirit tells you, "Now is the time... "
26:17 Jennifer: But how do you know?
26:19 Paul: And it's just not for Dee...
26:20 the Holy Spirit is taking into consideration, Dee's mom
26:23 because there's two people
26:24 that are going to be in this conversation.
26:26 How do you know, though, that the Holy Spirit...
26:28 I mean, I know it's a big question
26:29 and we may not have time for it...
26:31 I would be praying with him first and ask him first,
26:32 "How much peace do you have,
26:33 have you looked at some of the minefields,
26:35 are you going to use "I" statements or "You" statements?
26:37 Are you going to talk about your journey
26:39 or are you going to tell
26:40 how you've been wronged by the person?
26:42 What's your focus?
26:43 And help them... like you said,
26:44 you showed a letter to your friends and you got feedback,
26:48 "Is this person open to getting feedback?"
26:50 To avoid a lot of these mistakes.
26:52 I think, sometimes too,
26:54 we feel compelled to say something at a certain time
26:57 and I think that sometimes it's not the right emotion
27:00 like, it might be righteous indignation...
27:02 well, sometimes it is the right time
27:04 if it's righteous indignation
27:06 but other times, it might be sinful or...
27:07 I don't want to say, "anger" but it's just this...
27:11 Dee talked about fear too so it's just not anger...
27:15 but... yeah...
27:17 But anger tends to a secondary emotion
27:19 in response to fear so to try to protect ourselves
27:21 from what we're afraid of...
27:22 a lot of times, we'll come across... aggressive.
27:24 I think, sometimes when we feel that,
27:25 we think, "Oh, wow! now is the time,
27:27 I'd better say something... because if I don't say it now,
27:28 it's never going to happen... "
27:30 Well, I think we have to be very careful... and really...
27:32 through our searching of our own hearts
27:34 and surrendering that to the Lord
27:36 and if we're close to God, He's going to be talking to us
27:39 and if we're not hearing a voice...
27:40 that means we need to spend more time with Him too
27:42 to be able to hear that voice and experience His guidance.
27:45 Amen, we're going to have to wind up,
27:47 this is a vital discussion,
27:48 if you've been wounded as a result of a broken home,
27:51 there's help and hope and healing for you,
27:54 we just want to encourage you.
27:56 Thank you for being with us during this Program
27:58 on the Multitude of Counselors.