Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Christina Ceccoto, Dr. Jean Wright II, Juliet Van Heerden, Shelley Wiggins
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000022A
00:26 We are breaking the silence today
00:29 on A Multitude of Counselors
00:31 and filling it with good counsel.
00:33 We have a really interesting topic for you today,
00:37 it's "His Addiction or Mine"
00:39 His Addiction or Mine.
00:40 We're not going to be talking about addiction per se
00:43 but we're going to be talking about what happens...
00:45 well I guess, we are going to be talking about addiction
00:48 but we're going to be talking about what happens to people
00:52 in relationship with people with substance addictions
00:55 or other kinds of addictions
00:56 because we find that that addicts
00:58 are masters at conditioning the people around them
01:02 to accommodate the addiction and so we can end up
01:06 codependent and enabling without even knowing it.
01:09 Let's talk about some prevalence here...
01:11 one study says that the prevalence of all addictions
01:14 in the US is about 15 to 61 percent
01:17 with alcohol- and drug-addiction
01:20 being about 10 and 5 percent respectively.
01:23 Someone did some research and estimated codependency
01:27 as affecting 96 percent of women at some point in their lifetime,
01:32 96 percent... whoa...
01:34 that's kind of incriminating, isn't it Ladies?
01:35 What's the cause of all this unrest?
01:39 Typically we become codependent because we want to hang on
01:43 to the relationship with the addict.
01:46 So, is there hope?
01:47 Well, the codependent...
01:49 if they are willing to lay that relationship down
01:52 at the foot of the cross... the altar before God...
01:55 can experience recovery
01:57 and I think that one very good addition
02:02 to prayer and seeking the Lord and trusting in His presence
02:07 in one's life... in reading His Word...
02:09 and having a good social network
02:11 and maybe seeing a professional counselor...
02:13 one really good addition
02:14 that can help people with codependency,
02:15 is a support group...
02:17 because sometimes in a support group,
02:19 people will see your blind spots
02:20 but it's a safe place generally speaking...
02:23 where they can call you out on things that you might not see
02:26 on your own,
02:27 so we're going to be hearing today
02:29 from the lovely Juliet Van Heerden
02:31 who is an author and a mom and a wife and a speaker
02:36 and she has really made it her focus
02:39 to help people through
02:41 some of the things she's been through herself
02:43 so welcome to our Program, Juliet...
02:45 Juliet: Thank you... thank you. Jennifer: I'm so glad you're here
02:47 sorry about the plane ride yesterday.
02:48 Juliet: Thanks.
02:49 Jennifer: She went on a little, tiny plane
02:51 and we're so thankful also to have our Panel of Counselors.
02:55 We have Shelly Wiggins...
02:56 a Licensed Professional Counselor from Michigan,
02:59 we have Christina Cecotto,
03:00 Professional Counselor from Georgia
03:03 and we have Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia... yeah...!
03:07 and so we're so thankful to have each one of you here
03:11 let's get into our subject at hand...
03:13 what do you mean by... "His Addiction or Mine?"
03:15 There's a story here, I can feel it.
03:17 Juliet: There is definitely a story...
03:20 I was married... almost 13 years...
03:23 to man who was addicted to cocaine.
03:25 We were in church together nearly every week
03:28 and we had a lot of problems but people didn't know that
03:34 because I created a great facade
03:36 of a "perfect Christian family. "
03:37 Jennifer: You're all talking about... it's like,
03:39 "Yeah, I lived in the green house down the road...
03:41 di... di... di...
03:42 Juliet: So, I thought that because he had
03:47 the "real addiction" that I didn't have any problems
03:51 and that got me into a lot of trouble.
03:54 I started attending a Recovery Group to support him
03:58 and I learned that
04:01 there was a name for my rescuing and enabling...
04:07 and that role I played as a victim
04:09 and then I would persecute him, and then I would rescue him...
04:12 I was on just as much of a sick cycle as he was.
04:17 Jennifer: What was the name?
04:18 Juliet: Codependency...
04:20 Jennifer: Okay, this is a thing.
04:22 Juliet: It's a thing... it had a name...
04:24 I was surprised to discover that.
04:25 Jennifer: I thought maybe you had a new name
04:26 because you're so creative and stuff...
04:28 Juliet: No...
04:29 Jennifer: I'm like, waiting for that... but yeah...
04:30 so you figured out it was a "thing. "
04:32 Juliet: Yes... and I had it...
04:34 and my codependency manifested as "Perfectionism and Control"
04:40 a lot of control... because I didn't want the facade
04:43 that I had kind of built to work very hard to maintain...
04:47 I didn't want that to crumble and so I controlled him
04:51 and I controlled our life as much as I possibly could
04:54 and then I also began to be a workaholic
04:59 in order to avoid what was going on at home
05:03 so, eventually,
05:06 his addiction got so out of hand it took him to prison
05:09 and my addiction got so out of hand
05:13 that I was... I was really becoming unhealthy inside myself
05:18 and I started seeking treatment and recovery for myself
05:22 apart from anything that had to do with him...
05:25 and I still... I still am participating... yes.
05:28 Jennifer: You're still in recovery
05:29 and we never mean to give the impression on this Program
05:32 that people are completely fixed and fine and everything is good,
05:35 we're all in the process of recovery...
05:38 but what was the buy-in... what was the...
05:41 what did you enjoy about it?
05:43 Because in order for there to be an addiction,
05:45 there has to be some kind of pay off,
05:47 you know, for us to be in an unhealthy situation,
05:50 there has to be something we like about it,
05:51 what... did you ever analyze that or...?
05:53 Juliet: Well, I mean, I just... I liked my life...
05:56 what I thought was "my life... "
05:59 what I wanted to be my life...
06:01 and I had made a vow as a young person...
06:05 as a child... actually...
06:06 product of divorce... multiple times...
06:10 that I would never divorce...
06:12 so, part of... I don't know if you would call it a "buy-in"
06:16 but it was just a vow that I made to myself
06:18 that I was going to hold on to this
06:20 for as long as I possibly could...
06:22 basically until death do us part...
06:24 if my codependency killed me, I was willing...
06:28 I was that kind of a bull dog person...
06:30 willing to hold on to that...
06:31 because of the promise I made to myself
06:33 that I wouldn't become a statistic of divorce...
06:36 Jennifer: This is going to be really confrontational
06:39 and I'm known for this... but... are you...
06:41 was there some element of self-righteousness in that...
06:45 were you willing to be that transparent...
06:47 or you're like, "Mom and Dad messed me up
06:49 and I'm not going to do the same thing... "
06:50 Juliet: Of course... of course...
06:52 Jennifer: Okay, thank you for your honesty.
06:54 Juliet: Pride and self-righteousness...
06:55 all of that.
06:56 Jennifer: Hmmm... do you guys, as Counselors,
06:58 do you run into this where people have made vows
07:01 and the vows become unsustainable,
07:03 do you ever run into that?
07:04 Yeah, when you try to get them to figure out what they're...
07:06 was it an actual thing you remember doing
07:09 or was it conscious
07:10 or was it just like kind of... unconsciously?
07:13 Juliet: Oh no... I remembered... "I'm not going to do this. "
07:15 Shelly: At what point did you make the decision
07:19 that you wanted out of the relationship
07:21 that when there was an addiction on one end
07:26 and the codependency on your part
07:27 and then you said, your life... your health started to fail...
07:32 what led to you finally saying,
07:35 "I need to... I need to be out... "
07:38 I mean, because in the Christian context,
07:40 this is a taboo topic... so let's go there.
07:43 Juliet: I know, I struggled with it for a long time
07:45 even after I felt in my spirit...
07:50 in my communication with God that He released me
07:53 because of some choices that my first husband made,
07:56 I still hung on for a while longer
08:00 and then I just realized
08:04 it takes two people to have a marriage
08:06 and I don't actually have a marriage
08:09 and I felt... I felt free to move forward
08:14 and have life
08:17 and life abundantly... as Jesus promised
08:20 and I could not... and was not...
08:23 and was actually choosing to sin
08:27 by being or trying to be his savior.
08:29 Jennifer: Hmmm... that's intense...
08:32 Jean: It is.
08:33 Jennifer: So you... you...
08:34 you were trying to be something to him that only God...
08:36 so, in a way, you were blaspheming...
08:39 I mean, if I'm going to put it in the worst construct...
08:40 you know... trying to be "God" to someone.
08:43 Juliet: I prolonged the agony.
08:45 Christina: So explain what you were just saying
08:47 that you were trying to be "God" to him...
08:50 what did that look like.
08:51 Juliet: Well, I tried to be his "Holy Spirit... "
08:54 I tried to control what he was doing,
08:57 I tried to convict him, I tried to judge him,
09:03 I... I was trying to be inside his head all the time
09:09 and figure him out.
09:11 My whole life centered on, "Was he using or not using?"
09:15 "Was he lying to me or not lying to me?"
09:17 "What was he hiding?" "Was he...?"
09:20 It was all about him.
09:22 Jennifer: You were the detective.
09:23 Juliet: Yes, I was the detective,
09:25 I was his mother, I was his...
09:27 Shelly: Sounds exhausting.
09:28 Juliet: It was exhausting, it was exhausting
09:30 and I wasn't taking care of "me" at all
09:33 and I wasn't able to have a real relationship with Christ myself
09:36 because I was... even my prayers were codependent prayers,
09:41 you know, it was sick... really sick.
09:43 Christina: How did he react to that?
09:45 With you trying to be his mother... trying to convict,
09:48 trying to control? Did that fix him?
09:52 Juliet: "Did it fix him?" No...
09:55 Shelly: Or do you think it drove him further into his addiction?
09:57 Not saying the blame thing... I'm just...
10:01 Juliet: Once I backed off and let logical consequences happen
10:04 because when people are allowed to make their own choices
10:08 and suffer the result of them,
10:10 nature takes its course
10:12 and once I backed off
10:14 and stopped trying to do everything that I did,
10:17 he was able to experience some logical consequences
10:20 which actually took him to a place where he could get clean.
10:23 I mean, prison isn't the place you really want to go
10:26 but if it's going to help you to get clean,
10:29 maybe that's where Jesus needs to allow you to go
10:32 and I was busy trying to keep that from happening.
10:34 Jennifer: Yeah, you kept stepping
10:35 between him and his consequences.
10:37 Juliet: Yeah.
10:38 Jennifer: So at some point you made the conscious decision,
10:40 "I'm backing out... even though this is...
10:42 I'm so conditioned to doing this,
10:44 I'm so used to doing this, this is second nature to me
10:46 I'm going to intentionally back out of this role
10:48 and then, he was able to connect the dots.
10:50 Juliet: Yes, hmmm... hmmm... I was afraid
10:54 I was afraid of the facade coming down,
10:57 I was a teacher in our community,
10:59 I didn't want my last name on the front pages of the paper,
11:02 I didn't want the police involved in my life
11:04 but I remember at some point, I just said,
11:07 "I don't care anymore... "
11:08 I... I called the cops myself
11:11 and gave him his license plate number,
11:13 at one point in time, I just said,
11:15 "I'm tired of living this lie. "
11:17 Jean: You know, I find it interesting,
11:19 if you don't mind going back to a statement Jennifer made
11:21 about what you were getting out of it
11:22 and what triggered in my brain was "secondary gain"
11:24 and I've dealt with a lot of addictions
11:27 in terms of people that I've treated
11:29 and they all had a secondary gain,
11:31 there was something that may not have been under the surface
11:33 that they didn't realize they were getting out of it
11:34 you mentioned some of the things
11:36 of being "God" to him and all those
11:38 but at some point, as you stated, Jennifer,
11:41 the addiction had a pleasurable moment at some point
11:43 and I'm wondering...
11:45 at what point did you realize
11:47 that this is going in the opposite direction?
11:49 Was there a point in time where everything was good
11:50 and everything was going well
11:52 or was there an addiction from the very beginning
11:53 of your relationship?
11:55 Juliet: Ah... it's a good question...
11:58 and I think, honestly,
12:00 because I had a chaotic childhood,
12:02 I always had the codependent tendencies
12:05 that come from children of alcoholic families
12:09 or other issues in your family of origin
12:13 so, I always had these control things going on,
12:18 it's just that...
12:19 Jennifer: You feel like a moth to the flame...
12:21 to that dysfunctional relationship.
12:22 Juliet: Yes... it's just that
12:24 when I was married to someone with a chemical dependency,
12:28 it just kind of exposed it all the more.
12:30 Jennifer: Where is the hope, Counselors...
12:33 when people know they've been raised
12:35 in dysfunctional environments,
12:36 we know that if I build my personality
12:38 in an abnormal context, that becomes my normal
12:41 and I'm going to seek out my normal
12:43 so I can function as I am...
12:45 we all know this as Counselors,
12:46 we see it all the time
12:48 and in ourselves, even,
12:50 so what do we tell people,
12:51 how do we help them not repeat history?
12:53 Can people change the course of history
12:56 and intentionally place themselves in healthy situations
13:00 how... how... tell me... what do you think?
13:02 Hard question.
13:03 Well, I think, looking at your family dynamics
13:07 and... from a family system's perspective...
13:10 a lot of times I'll have people do
13:13 what's called the "Family Genogram"
13:15 we look at three or four generations in the patterns
13:19 and to just... just to have them look at a picture
13:23 of what does their life look like on paper... generationally
13:27 and just to kind of own some of the themes and the patterns
13:31 and to say, "Okay, which ones do I want to keep,
13:34 which ones do I want to say,
13:36 'In Jesus' name no more and it stops here?"
13:39 Jennifer: Amen, and I love that and just to clarify
13:42 a "Genogram" or a "Genogram" is like a family tree
13:44 and what you do is that you map out the family
13:46 and then you find out where the depression is
13:48 and where the addiction is and what the relationships
13:50 and there's all these symbols you use
13:51 and you can see at a glance
13:53 the pathologies of that family, so you're saying,
13:55 "A moral review of one's family can be very, very beneficial. "
13:59 Shelly: Right, because if there's...
14:01 if there's... let's say, alcohol or codependency
14:04 or depression or suicide
14:06 coming from three generations down the trail...
14:09 then, you need to be able to say,
14:12 "All right, I'm going to be very poignant,
14:15 or I want to take a concerted effort...
14:17 and I'm going to educate myself in this area
14:19 and I'm going to get some counseling
14:20 and I'm going to have some accountability in this area
14:23 and I'm going to guard myself,
14:25 we have people hold me in check... and say,
14:28 'You know, if I see you going there,
14:29 you've shared with me... this is in your family line'"
14:33 you know...
14:35 Jennifer: Amen, there's a key element here, though,
14:37 because we talked about vows a minute ago... and just saying,
14:40 "I'm not going to repeat history"
14:41 isn't enough, we have to say,
14:43 "Jesus, help me not repeat history"
14:45 and then, take the appropriate steps
14:49 Shelly: You need the awareness first that you need Jesus' help.
14:50 Jennifer: That's right... that's right.
14:52 Juliet: And the Bible has this principle of...
14:54 "To the third and fourth generation... "
14:55 or... you know... to break...
14:57 "I come against this in the name of Jesus
15:00 and I bring the cross of Jesus Christ
15:02 between me and this historical pattern in my family,
15:05 it is broken... "
15:06 And Shelly used a beautiful analogy once about...
15:11 "Here's your timeline of your life,
15:13 here's the cross...
15:14 and everything behind the cross is what happened
15:18 and from here forward... I've erected...
15:20 the cross is erected here...
15:21 from here forward, it's me walking with Jesus,
15:23 away... from those things... " Shelly: From all of that.
15:25 Jennifer: Yeah, yes, amen and I love that.
15:27 Christina: And I think setting boundaries is very crucial
15:29 when it comes to codependency
15:31 and not being that enabler any longer...
15:33 I mean, of course, that's easier said than done,
15:35 right, but what are those little boundaries?
15:37 What are those basic steps that can be...
15:39 that someone can start with to begin to make a change
15:42 in the patterns of the relationship?
15:44 She made a very... what I love about you is that
15:48 you're very honest about your own sin,
15:50 you know, you're not...
15:51 like so many lovely women
15:53 who've been in a relationship with an addict...
15:54 who go walking out that relationship... crying...
15:56 "Oh, my life was so terrible,
15:59 I was married to a cocaine addict... "
16:00 and everybody would be on your side,
16:02 and nobody would question you...
16:03 they'd say, "That bad guy... "
16:04 you could get total social support for that
16:07 but instead, you're saying,
16:08 "Mea culpa, I had an addiction too... "
16:12 and you're being honest and I love that about you.
16:15 And so, it's very important because that...
16:17 taking moral responsibility is what gives power
16:20 to the kind of life,
16:22 major "size-matic" life change that we're talking about here.
16:25 So, I affirm you for that, in case you didn't pick that up.
16:28 Juliet: Thank you very much... I'll take it...
16:31 I didn't come easily to that... to that place...
16:35 it took a lot of...
16:36 Jennifer: Really?
16:37 Juliet: Oh, yes, I mean,
16:39 it took a lot of years of sitting in meetings
16:42 with other people who struggled with addiction
16:47 and saying, "My name is Juliet...
16:48 I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus
16:50 but I struggle with codependency
16:52 and it looks like perfectionism in control. "
16:55 Shelly: Hmmm... hmmm...
16:56 Juliet: It took a long time for me to be able to say that
16:58 in a safe small setting
17:00 and then to be able to go public and say that.
17:04 Jennifer: What gave you the courage?
17:07 Juliet: The Lord laid on my heart to write my story
17:11 to share what I lived through with other people who are afraid
17:16 who live in that place of shame and fear
17:19 as they sit in church week after week
17:22 wondering if they're the only weird family
17:26 who struggles with some unconventional sin
17:31 like, pornography or drugs or alcohol...
17:34 or those kinds of things
17:36 that you don't normally talk about in church,
17:37 I realized that that we weren't the only weird family
17:40 and God just laid on my heart to give a voice
17:44 to those people who struggle that way
17:47 and so, I wrote my story and...
17:49 Shelly: It must have been hard to...
17:52 I mean, how many years after you'd been out of the marriage
17:56 that you decided to write the...
17:58 or God laid it on your heart to write the book?
18:00 I mean, it's not easy to go back and revisit
18:03 something that you've already put behind you.
18:06 Juliet: In order to write well,
18:07 you have to live it in your brain
18:09 and I was...
18:10 I was remarried, very happily, to a Pastor
18:14 and just... really enjoying my new life,
18:17 not wanting to spend time thinking about the past too much
18:20 but as a pastor's wife people started talking to me...
18:23 sharing their stories with me
18:25 and I just began to have so much compassion and realizing,
18:29 "Man! I need to be able to share what I've lived through"
18:33 and God gave me the courage to write it,
18:36 it took about three years because it was hard
18:38 but it came out in 2015...
18:43 my book was published and since then,
18:46 people contact me and they just say, "Thank you,
18:49 thank you, thank you, thank you,
18:51 I feel like you wrote my story,
18:53 and thanks for putting words to where I've been
18:56 and giving hope for what God can do... "
18:58 and so, just through that process,
19:01 I've just been able to... by God's grace,
19:05 put away the pride and say, "This is who I am"
19:08 and I relapsed...
19:09 Jennifer: How? What did your relapse look like?
19:12 Juliet: Well, I was writing my book
19:15 and I was living... in my mind...
19:18 the hard, hard times
19:21 and another way that I'd numb is with food
19:25 and so, I would find myself just
19:27 getting up from my computer writing
19:29 and I'd be standing in front of open refrigerator
19:31 going, "Just give me something, anything to numb with... "
19:35 Jennifer: Little dopamine in the brain.
19:38 Juliet: I realized, "Well, I'm still...
19:40 I'm still turning to something instead of turning to Jesus. "
19:45 Jennifer: You bring up an interesting point
19:47 because putting our story out there
19:49 can be very helpful to other people
19:50 but it can... it can summon up those feelings...
19:54 and put a person in a fragile state
19:56 and did you ever put the book away and say,
19:58 "I just can't handle this right now... "
20:00 Juliet: Yes, that's why it took three years to write the book.
20:04 I just set it aside.
20:05 Shelly: Sounds like it was its own therapy process in itself.
20:08 Juliet: It was very cathartic.
20:10 Shelly: To write your story
20:12 and in that process,
20:14 what did you find was the most important part of
20:18 like, the recovery process
20:21 of putting the nuts and bolts together of codependency...
20:24 because there's...
20:25 there's true needs that are trying to get met
20:28 when you're codependent,
20:30 you really are trying to get your childhood needs met, right,
20:32 okay, so what did you discover that was a need
20:38 that you're trying to get met?
20:39 Was that to feel approved of...
20:42 was it to feel loved? Was it... I mean like...
20:45 Juliet: It was all of that
20:47 because when you're growing up without those things,
20:51 you want it.
20:53 In a marriage with someone who is chemically dependent,
20:56 you don't have it, you're not seen,
20:58 you're not valued,
20:59 you're not heard, you're not loved,
21:00 and so, it's... you're looking for all of these things
21:04 but what I think is the key... one key element
21:08 to putting codependency in the past,
21:13 is to be vulnerable enough to be heard
21:17 because if you set aside the pride
21:21 and are willing to actually share something of yourself
21:24 and that's where I found group therapy
21:27 and... in my 12-Step Recovery Group
21:31 so healing for me was because I could actually say something
21:34 and not be interrupted, not be judged,
21:37 not have someone come back with some snarky little answer
21:40 but to be heard... and that to me, was very healing.
21:45 Could you give some direction
21:47 as to what kind group a person could go to
21:49 if they're in a similar situation,
21:51 can you give them some direction,
21:53 they're living in Timbuktu,
21:55 they realize they have a codependent relationship
21:58 what do they do?
21:59 Okay, well, if you're in Timbuktu,
22:02 you might not have a lot of resources.
22:05 In larger cities, there are, of course,
22:07 many different types of recovery groups...
22:09 you can be very specific
22:10 and just have a codependent recovery group for women
22:14 and that's great
22:15 but if you don't have that,
22:17 you could go to any recovery group
22:21 or even to create your own with people that you feel safe.
22:25 It just... it's a matter of
22:27 knowing that you can trust the people you are confiding in
22:32 and putting Jesus in the center of that
22:34 and knowing that you're not having a gossip session
22:37 or a condemnation fest... or, you know, something like that
22:43 but that you are actually admitting,
22:46 "This is who I am... this is where I'm struggling right now
22:49 and letting God and people hold you accountable.
22:53 Jennifer: That's right, it's not gossip...
22:55 you're not just feeding off the failings of others,
22:57 it's... you're sharing in a group
23:00 and everything that's said there... stays there.
23:02 Juliet: Exactly.
23:03 Christina: What would you say to the woman who have...
23:06 or even the men who have left... maybe a relationship...
23:09 but they haven't made that choice to maybe confront
23:11 how they have been damaged by a relationship such as yours,
23:15 how would they get to that point of even going to receive help,
23:19 I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
23:21 Well, I mean, just asking ourselves the question,
23:25 "What... how am I feeling,
23:28 like, how am I really feeling?"
23:30 Because sometimes, when we're addicted to relationships,
23:34 or codependent... we just... we're in denial...
23:38 and we're so busy... worried about how someone is feeling,
23:42 what are they doing?
23:43 We don't pay attention to ourselves.
23:45 We don't trust ourselves and in the 12 steps...
23:52 the 8th step is like...
23:53 making a list of all the people I've harmed
23:56 and be willing to make amends to them.
23:57 You know who's at the top of our list?
23:59 Myself... because I harm myself
24:03 when I'm busy being a guardian to everybody else.
24:07 Jennifer: And this is something that codependents don't get...
24:08 is that you are a person too... you're God's child
24:10 and you don't have a right to harm yourself
24:13 just because it's you... Juliet: Right.
24:15 Jennifer: Harming yourself is just as off limits
24:18 as harming another person would be.
24:20 That's something that... because a lot of times
24:23 people that are Christian and codependent
24:24 will mask their codependency with,
24:27 "Well, I'm so sacrificial...
24:28 look, I'm just willing to take all this... "
24:31 Juliet: Right, the martyr thing
24:32 but really just ask yourselves,
24:34 like, "Am I okay? Where am I God?
24:36 and Am I being kind to myself?
24:38 Am I treating myself with the respect that... "
24:40 Shelly: "That you want me to. "
24:42 Christina: And I thought it was interesting that you said that
24:44 when you hadn't come to that place yet
24:46 of admitting that you also had some things to work out...
24:49 that you went into workaholism...
24:51 you were trying to kind of,
24:52 "Let's try to avoid this in some way... in some fashion... "
24:56 and it was actually the ways of trying to cope with it
24:58 was actually hurting you even more.
25:00 Juliet: But work is an acceptable addiction,
25:02 especially in church...
25:03 Christina: Especially in the United States too, right.
25:05 Juliet: We could work all day long, I mean, as a teacher,
25:08 I could stay at school till 9 o'clock at night,
25:10 you know, and just avoid what was going on at home.
25:12 Christina: And you would be looked at as...
25:14 Shelly: Wonderful. Christina: Right...
25:16 Jennifer: Okay, I have a question for you,
25:17 you've been amazingly silent so I'm going to just...
25:21 you know me... so, what percentage of the
25:23 substance-addicted individuals that you work with
25:26 have someone enabling them?
25:28 Jean: It's not a scientific response
25:32 but I'd say, a 100 percent.
25:33 Jennifer: Okay, I thought you'd say that.
25:35 Jean: And the interesting thing that I wanted to ask was...
25:36 dealing with people that have addictions,
25:39 once they give those addictions up, they have...
25:41 so that's getting rid of a negative behavior
25:44 and you have to replace it with a positive one,
25:47 you mentioned "Christ... " that's obviously foremost...
25:49 you've mentioned "Group... " that's always a good thing to do
25:53 but I'm also interested, for the audience out there,
25:55 are there any down-to-earth practical things
25:57 that a person can do...
25:59 did you do anything...
26:00 and is it listed in your book, perhaps,
26:02 where you... maybe exercised more
26:04 or you did something...
26:05 not the workaholic thing
26:07 but some practical thing that somebody could do.
26:08 Jennifer: Self-care... Jean: Yeah, thank you...
26:09 self-care things that are really important,
26:11 did you have some fun?
26:13 Did you do anything interesting?
26:14 Juliet: Yeah, I always was just so serious and so driven
26:17 and so...
26:19 but learning how to have fun... how to play...
26:23 and becoming a mom recently has helped me also
26:26 to be able to kind of do that, to kind of have that outlet.
26:29 Give us just a nutshell
26:30 of what's going on with the "mom" thing.
26:32 Okay, well, this year I became a mom of 17-year-old boys...
26:37 teenagers... from Ukraine...
26:39 see, I got on to the parenting highway with no on-ramp...
26:45 90 miles an hour...
26:47 but I'm trying to have balance in my life...
26:51 and playing with them is one way to do that.
26:56 Jean: Good... good...
26:57 Jennifer: You know, there is a prayer in Psalm 139,
27:02 it says, "Search me, O God, and know my heart:
27:05 try me, and know my thoughts:
27:07 And see if there be any wicked way in me,
27:09 and lead me in the way everlasting. "
27:11 And that word, "wicked way" is from a mysterious Hebrew word
27:14 and it really means "way of pain"
27:16 and it also means, "way of idolatry"
27:18 so we all have idolatries in our lives
27:21 and we've been talking about one form...
27:23 very subtle form of idolatry
27:25 and Juliet Van Heerden has been extremely honest,
27:28 she has a wonderful book that goes into more detail
27:31 but pray that prayer and ask God,
27:34 "Show me if there's a way of pain in me
27:38 some way in which I am engaging in some kind of idolatry
27:42 that really looks very good on the outside
27:44 and I feel like a martyr or whatever...
27:45 or self-righteous
27:47 and lead me in the way of everlasting...
27:49 show me what is the next step to take
27:51 in my recovery journey. "
27:53 Thank you so much for joining us
27:55 and may God bless you abundantly.