Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Christina Ceccoto, Dr. Jean Wright II, Juliet Van Heerden, Shelley Wiggins
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000022A
|
00:26 We are breaking the silence today
00:29 on A Multitude of Counselors 00:31 and filling it with good counsel. 00:33 We have a really interesting topic for you today, 00:37 it's "His Addiction or Mine" 00:39 His Addiction or Mine. 00:40 We're not going to be talking about addiction per se 00:43 but we're going to be talking about what happens... 00:45 well I guess, we are going to be talking about addiction 00:48 but we're going to be talking about what happens to people 00:52 in relationship with people with substance addictions 00:55 or other kinds of addictions 00:56 because we find that that addicts 00:58 are masters at conditioning the people around them 01:02 to accommodate the addiction and so we can end up 01:06 codependent and enabling without even knowing it. 01:09 Let's talk about some prevalence here... 01:11 one study says that the prevalence of all addictions 01:14 in the US is about 15 to 61 percent 01:17 with alcohol- and drug-addiction 01:20 being about 10 and 5 percent respectively. 01:23 Someone did some research and estimated codependency 01:27 as affecting 96 percent of women at some point in their lifetime, 01:32 96 percent... whoa... 01:34 that's kind of incriminating, isn't it Ladies? 01:35 What's the cause of all this unrest? 01:39 Typically we become codependent because we want to hang on 01:43 to the relationship with the addict. 01:46 So, is there hope? 01:47 Well, the codependent... 01:49 if they are willing to lay that relationship down 01:52 at the foot of the cross... the altar before God... 01:55 can experience recovery 01:57 and I think that one very good addition 02:02 to prayer and seeking the Lord and trusting in His presence 02:07 in one's life... in reading His Word... 02:09 and having a good social network 02:11 and maybe seeing a professional counselor... 02:13 one really good addition 02:14 that can help people with codependency, 02:15 is a support group... 02:17 because sometimes in a support group, 02:19 people will see your blind spots 02:20 but it's a safe place generally speaking... 02:23 where they can call you out on things that you might not see 02:26 on your own, 02:27 so we're going to be hearing today 02:29 from the lovely Juliet Van Heerden 02:31 who is an author and a mom and a wife and a speaker 02:36 and she has really made it her focus 02:39 to help people through 02:41 some of the things she's been through herself 02:43 so welcome to our Program, Juliet... 02:45 Juliet: Thank you... thank you. Jennifer: I'm so glad you're here 02:47 sorry about the plane ride yesterday. 02:48 Juliet: Thanks. 02:49 Jennifer: She went on a little, tiny plane 02:51 and we're so thankful also to have our Panel of Counselors. 02:55 We have Shelly Wiggins... 02:56 a Licensed Professional Counselor from Michigan, 02:59 we have Christina Cecotto, 03:00 Professional Counselor from Georgia 03:03 and we have Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia... yeah...! 03:07 and so we're so thankful to have each one of you here 03:11 let's get into our subject at hand... 03:13 what do you mean by... "His Addiction or Mine?" 03:15 There's a story here, I can feel it. 03:17 Juliet: There is definitely a story... 03:20 I was married... almost 13 years... 03:23 to man who was addicted to cocaine. 03:25 We were in church together nearly every week 03:28 and we had a lot of problems but people didn't know that 03:34 because I created a great facade 03:36 of a "perfect Christian family. " 03:37 Jennifer: You're all talking about... it's like, 03:39 "Yeah, I lived in the green house down the road... 03:41 di... di... di... 03:42 Juliet: So, I thought that because he had 03:47 the "real addiction" that I didn't have any problems 03:51 and that got me into a lot of trouble. 03:54 I started attending a Recovery Group to support him 03:58 and I learned that 04:01 there was a name for my rescuing and enabling... 04:07 and that role I played as a victim 04:09 and then I would persecute him, and then I would rescue him... 04:12 I was on just as much of a sick cycle as he was. 04:17 Jennifer: What was the name? 04:18 Juliet: Codependency... 04:20 Jennifer: Okay, this is a thing. 04:22 Juliet: It's a thing... it had a name... 04:24 I was surprised to discover that. 04:25 Jennifer: I thought maybe you had a new name 04:26 because you're so creative and stuff... 04:28 Juliet: No... 04:29 Jennifer: I'm like, waiting for that... but yeah... 04:30 so you figured out it was a "thing. " 04:32 Juliet: Yes... and I had it... 04:34 and my codependency manifested as "Perfectionism and Control" 04:40 a lot of control... because I didn't want the facade 04:43 that I had kind of built to work very hard to maintain... 04:47 I didn't want that to crumble and so I controlled him 04:51 and I controlled our life as much as I possibly could 04:54 and then I also began to be a workaholic 04:59 in order to avoid what was going on at home 05:03 so, eventually, 05:06 his addiction got so out of hand it took him to prison 05:09 and my addiction got so out of hand 05:13 that I was... I was really becoming unhealthy inside myself 05:18 and I started seeking treatment and recovery for myself 05:22 apart from anything that had to do with him... 05:25 and I still... I still am participating... yes. 05:28 Jennifer: You're still in recovery 05:29 and we never mean to give the impression on this Program 05:32 that people are completely fixed and fine and everything is good, 05:35 we're all in the process of recovery... 05:38 but what was the buy-in... what was the... 05:41 what did you enjoy about it? 05:43 Because in order for there to be an addiction, 05:45 there has to be some kind of pay off, 05:47 you know, for us to be in an unhealthy situation, 05:50 there has to be something we like about it, 05:51 what... did you ever analyze that or...? 05:53 Juliet: Well, I mean, I just... I liked my life... 05:56 what I thought was "my life... " 05:59 what I wanted to be my life... 06:01 and I had made a vow as a young person... 06:05 as a child... actually... 06:06 product of divorce... multiple times... 06:10 that I would never divorce... 06:12 so, part of... I don't know if you would call it a "buy-in" 06:16 but it was just a vow that I made to myself 06:18 that I was going to hold on to this 06:20 for as long as I possibly could... 06:22 basically until death do us part... 06:24 if my codependency killed me, I was willing... 06:28 I was that kind of a bull dog person... 06:30 willing to hold on to that... 06:31 because of the promise I made to myself 06:33 that I wouldn't become a statistic of divorce... 06:36 Jennifer: This is going to be really confrontational 06:39 and I'm known for this... but... are you... 06:41 was there some element of self-righteousness in that... 06:45 were you willing to be that transparent... 06:47 or you're like, "Mom and Dad messed me up 06:49 and I'm not going to do the same thing... " 06:50 Juliet: Of course... of course... 06:52 Jennifer: Okay, thank you for your honesty. 06:54 Juliet: Pride and self-righteousness... 06:55 all of that. 06:56 Jennifer: Hmmm... do you guys, as Counselors, 06:58 do you run into this where people have made vows 07:01 and the vows become unsustainable, 07:03 do you ever run into that? 07:04 Yeah, when you try to get them to figure out what they're... 07:06 was it an actual thing you remember doing 07:09 or was it conscious 07:10 or was it just like kind of... unconsciously? 07:13 Juliet: Oh no... I remembered... "I'm not going to do this. " 07:15 Shelly: At what point did you make the decision 07:19 that you wanted out of the relationship 07:21 that when there was an addiction on one end 07:26 and the codependency on your part 07:27 and then you said, your life... your health started to fail... 07:32 what led to you finally saying, 07:35 "I need to... I need to be out... " 07:38 I mean, because in the Christian context, 07:40 this is a taboo topic... so let's go there. 07:43 Juliet: I know, I struggled with it for a long time 07:45 even after I felt in my spirit... 07:50 in my communication with God that He released me 07:53 because of some choices that my first husband made, 07:56 I still hung on for a while longer 08:00 and then I just realized 08:04 it takes two people to have a marriage 08:06 and I don't actually have a marriage 08:09 and I felt... I felt free to move forward 08:14 and have life 08:17 and life abundantly... as Jesus promised 08:20 and I could not... and was not... 08:23 and was actually choosing to sin 08:27 by being or trying to be his savior. 08:29 Jennifer: Hmmm... that's intense... 08:32 Jean: It is. 08:33 Jennifer: So you... you... 08:34 you were trying to be something to him that only God... 08:36 so, in a way, you were blaspheming... 08:39 I mean, if I'm going to put it in the worst construct... 08:40 you know... trying to be "God" to someone. 08:43 Juliet: I prolonged the agony. 08:45 Christina: So explain what you were just saying 08:47 that you were trying to be "God" to him... 08:50 what did that look like. 08:51 Juliet: Well, I tried to be his "Holy Spirit... " 08:54 I tried to control what he was doing, 08:57 I tried to convict him, I tried to judge him, 09:03 I... I was trying to be inside his head all the time 09:09 and figure him out. 09:11 My whole life centered on, "Was he using or not using?" 09:15 "Was he lying to me or not lying to me?" 09:17 "What was he hiding?" "Was he...?" 09:20 It was all about him. 09:22 Jennifer: You were the detective. 09:23 Juliet: Yes, I was the detective, 09:25 I was his mother, I was his... 09:27 Shelly: Sounds exhausting. 09:28 Juliet: It was exhausting, it was exhausting 09:30 and I wasn't taking care of "me" at all 09:33 and I wasn't able to have a real relationship with Christ myself 09:36 because I was... even my prayers were codependent prayers, 09:41 you know, it was sick... really sick. 09:43 Christina: How did he react to that? 09:45 With you trying to be his mother... trying to convict, 09:48 trying to control? Did that fix him? 09:52 Juliet: "Did it fix him?" No... 09:55 Shelly: Or do you think it drove him further into his addiction? 09:57 Not saying the blame thing... I'm just... 10:01 Juliet: Once I backed off and let logical consequences happen 10:04 because when people are allowed to make their own choices 10:08 and suffer the result of them, 10:10 nature takes its course 10:12 and once I backed off 10:14 and stopped trying to do everything that I did, 10:17 he was able to experience some logical consequences 10:20 which actually took him to a place where he could get clean. 10:23 I mean, prison isn't the place you really want to go 10:26 but if it's going to help you to get clean, 10:29 maybe that's where Jesus needs to allow you to go 10:32 and I was busy trying to keep that from happening. 10:34 Jennifer: Yeah, you kept stepping 10:35 between him and his consequences. 10:37 Juliet: Yeah. 10:38 Jennifer: So at some point you made the conscious decision, 10:40 "I'm backing out... even though this is... 10:42 I'm so conditioned to doing this, 10:44 I'm so used to doing this, this is second nature to me 10:46 I'm going to intentionally back out of this role 10:48 and then, he was able to connect the dots. 10:50 Juliet: Yes, hmmm... hmmm... I was afraid 10:54 I was afraid of the facade coming down, 10:57 I was a teacher in our community, 10:59 I didn't want my last name on the front pages of the paper, 11:02 I didn't want the police involved in my life 11:04 but I remember at some point, I just said, 11:07 "I don't care anymore... " 11:08 I... I called the cops myself 11:11 and gave him his license plate number, 11:13 at one point in time, I just said, 11:15 "I'm tired of living this lie. " 11:17 Jean: You know, I find it interesting, 11:19 if you don't mind going back to a statement Jennifer made 11:21 about what you were getting out of it 11:22 and what triggered in my brain was "secondary gain" 11:24 and I've dealt with a lot of addictions 11:27 in terms of people that I've treated 11:29 and they all had a secondary gain, 11:31 there was something that may not have been under the surface 11:33 that they didn't realize they were getting out of it 11:34 you mentioned some of the things 11:36 of being "God" to him and all those 11:38 but at some point, as you stated, Jennifer, 11:41 the addiction had a pleasurable moment at some point 11:43 and I'm wondering... 11:45 at what point did you realize 11:47 that this is going in the opposite direction? 11:49 Was there a point in time where everything was good 11:50 and everything was going well 11:52 or was there an addiction from the very beginning 11:53 of your relationship? 11:55 Juliet: Ah... it's a good question... 11:58 and I think, honestly, 12:00 because I had a chaotic childhood, 12:02 I always had the codependent tendencies 12:05 that come from children of alcoholic families 12:09 or other issues in your family of origin 12:13 so, I always had these control things going on, 12:18 it's just that... 12:19 Jennifer: You feel like a moth to the flame... 12:21 to that dysfunctional relationship. 12:22 Juliet: Yes... it's just that 12:24 when I was married to someone with a chemical dependency, 12:28 it just kind of exposed it all the more. 12:30 Jennifer: Where is the hope, Counselors... 12:33 when people know they've been raised 12:35 in dysfunctional environments, 12:36 we know that if I build my personality 12:38 in an abnormal context, that becomes my normal 12:41 and I'm going to seek out my normal 12:43 so I can function as I am... 12:45 we all know this as Counselors, 12:46 we see it all the time 12:48 and in ourselves, even, 12:50 so what do we tell people, 12:51 how do we help them not repeat history? 12:53 Can people change the course of history 12:56 and intentionally place themselves in healthy situations 13:00 how... how... tell me... what do you think? 13:02 Hard question. 13:03 Well, I think, looking at your family dynamics 13:07 and... from a family system's perspective... 13:10 a lot of times I'll have people do 13:13 what's called the "Family Genogram" 13:15 we look at three or four generations in the patterns 13:19 and to just... just to have them look at a picture 13:23 of what does their life look like on paper... generationally 13:27 and just to kind of own some of the themes and the patterns 13:31 and to say, "Okay, which ones do I want to keep, 13:34 which ones do I want to say, 13:36 'In Jesus' name no more and it stops here?" 13:39 Jennifer: Amen, and I love that and just to clarify 13:42 a "Genogram" or a "Genogram" is like a family tree 13:44 and what you do is that you map out the family 13:46 and then you find out where the depression is 13:48 and where the addiction is and what the relationships 13:50 and there's all these symbols you use 13:51 and you can see at a glance 13:53 the pathologies of that family, so you're saying, 13:55 "A moral review of one's family can be very, very beneficial. " 13:59 Shelly: Right, because if there's... 14:01 if there's... let's say, alcohol or codependency 14:04 or depression or suicide 14:06 coming from three generations down the trail... 14:09 then, you need to be able to say, 14:12 "All right, I'm going to be very poignant, 14:15 or I want to take a concerted effort... 14:17 and I'm going to educate myself in this area 14:19 and I'm going to get some counseling 14:20 and I'm going to have some accountability in this area 14:23 and I'm going to guard myself, 14:25 we have people hold me in check... and say, 14:28 'You know, if I see you going there, 14:29 you've shared with me... this is in your family line'" 14:33 you know... 14:35 Jennifer: Amen, there's a key element here, though, 14:37 because we talked about vows a minute ago... and just saying, 14:40 "I'm not going to repeat history" 14:41 isn't enough, we have to say, 14:43 "Jesus, help me not repeat history" 14:45 and then, take the appropriate steps 14:47 to... 14:49 Shelly: You need the awareness first that you need Jesus' help. 14:50 Jennifer: That's right... that's right. 14:52 Juliet: And the Bible has this principle of... 14:54 "To the third and fourth generation... " 14:55 or... you know... to break... 14:57 "I come against this in the name of Jesus 15:00 and I bring the cross of Jesus Christ 15:02 between me and this historical pattern in my family, 15:05 it is broken... " 15:06 And Shelly used a beautiful analogy once about... 15:11 "Here's your timeline of your life, 15:13 here's the cross... 15:14 and everything behind the cross is what happened 15:18 and from here forward... I've erected... 15:20 the cross is erected here... 15:21 from here forward, it's me walking with Jesus, 15:23 away... from those things... " Shelly: From all of that. 15:25 Jennifer: Yeah, yes, amen and I love that. 15:27 Christina: And I think setting boundaries is very crucial 15:29 when it comes to codependency 15:31 and not being that enabler any longer... 15:33 I mean, of course, that's easier said than done, 15:35 right, but what are those little boundaries? 15:37 What are those basic steps that can be... 15:39 that someone can start with to begin to make a change 15:42 in the patterns of the relationship? 15:44 She made a very... what I love about you is that 15:48 you're very honest about your own sin, 15:50 you know, you're not... 15:51 like so many lovely women 15:53 who've been in a relationship with an addict... 15:54 who go walking out that relationship... crying... 15:56 "Oh, my life was so terrible, 15:59 I was married to a cocaine addict... " 16:00 and everybody would be on your side, 16:02 and nobody would question you... 16:03 they'd say, "That bad guy... " 16:04 you could get total social support for that 16:07 but instead, you're saying, 16:08 "Mea culpa, I had an addiction too... " 16:12 and you're being honest and I love that about you. 16:15 And so, it's very important because that... 16:17 taking moral responsibility is what gives power 16:20 to the kind of life, 16:22 major "size-matic" life change that we're talking about here. 16:25 So, I affirm you for that, in case you didn't pick that up. 16:28 Juliet: Thank you very much... I'll take it... 16:31 I didn't come easily to that... to that place... 16:35 it took a lot of... 16:36 Jennifer: Really? 16:37 Juliet: Oh, yes, I mean, 16:39 it took a lot of years of sitting in meetings 16:42 with other people who struggled with addiction 16:47 and saying, "My name is Juliet... 16:48 I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus 16:50 but I struggle with codependency 16:52 and it looks like perfectionism in control. " 16:55 Shelly: Hmmm... hmmm... 16:56 Juliet: It took a long time for me to be able to say that 16:58 in a safe small setting 17:00 and then to be able to go public and say that. 17:04 Jennifer: What gave you the courage? 17:07 Juliet: The Lord laid on my heart to write my story 17:11 to share what I lived through with other people who are afraid 17:16 who live in that place of shame and fear 17:19 as they sit in church week after week 17:22 wondering if they're the only weird family 17:26 who struggles with some unconventional sin 17:31 like, pornography or drugs or alcohol... 17:34 or those kinds of things 17:36 that you don't normally talk about in church, 17:37 I realized that that we weren't the only weird family 17:40 and God just laid on my heart to give a voice 17:44 to those people who struggle that way 17:47 and so, I wrote my story and... 17:49 Shelly: It must have been hard to... 17:52 I mean, how many years after you'd been out of the marriage 17:56 that you decided to write the... 17:58 or God laid it on your heart to write the book? 18:00 I mean, it's not easy to go back and revisit 18:03 something that you've already put behind you. 18:06 Juliet: In order to write well, 18:07 you have to live it in your brain 18:09 and I was... 18:10 I was remarried, very happily, to a Pastor 18:14 and just... really enjoying my new life, 18:17 not wanting to spend time thinking about the past too much 18:20 but as a pastor's wife people started talking to me... 18:23 sharing their stories with me 18:25 and I just began to have so much compassion and realizing, 18:29 "Man! I need to be able to share what I've lived through" 18:33 and God gave me the courage to write it, 18:36 it took about three years because it was hard 18:38 but it came out in 2015... 18:43 my book was published and since then, 18:46 people contact me and they just say, "Thank you, 18:49 thank you, thank you, thank you, 18:51 I feel like you wrote my story, 18:53 and thanks for putting words to where I've been 18:56 and giving hope for what God can do... " 18:58 and so, just through that process, 19:01 I've just been able to... by God's grace, 19:05 put away the pride and say, "This is who I am" 19:08 and I relapsed... 19:09 Jennifer: How? What did your relapse look like? 19:12 Juliet: Well, I was writing my book 19:15 and I was living... in my mind... 19:18 the hard, hard times 19:21 and another way that I'd numb is with food 19:25 and so, I would find myself just 19:27 getting up from my computer writing 19:29 and I'd be standing in front of open refrigerator 19:31 going, "Just give me something, anything to numb with... " 19:35 Jennifer: Little dopamine in the brain. 19:38 Juliet: I realized, "Well, I'm still... 19:40 I'm still turning to something instead of turning to Jesus. " 19:45 Jennifer: You bring up an interesting point 19:47 because putting our story out there 19:49 can be very helpful to other people 19:50 but it can... it can summon up those feelings... 19:54 and put a person in a fragile state 19:56 and did you ever put the book away and say, 19:58 "I just can't handle this right now... " 20:00 Juliet: Yes, that's why it took three years to write the book. 20:04 I just set it aside. 20:05 Shelly: Sounds like it was its own therapy process in itself. 20:08 Juliet: It was very cathartic. 20:10 Shelly: To write your story 20:12 and in that process, 20:14 what did you find was the most important part of 20:18 like, the recovery process 20:21 of putting the nuts and bolts together of codependency... 20:24 because there's... 20:25 there's true needs that are trying to get met 20:28 when you're codependent, 20:30 you really are trying to get your childhood needs met, right, 20:32 okay, so what did you discover that was a need 20:38 that you're trying to get met? 20:39 Was that to feel approved of... 20:42 was it to feel loved? Was it... I mean like... 20:45 Juliet: It was all of that 20:47 because when you're growing up without those things, 20:51 you want it. 20:53 In a marriage with someone who is chemically dependent, 20:56 you don't have it, you're not seen, 20:58 you're not valued, 20:59 you're not heard, you're not loved, 21:00 and so, it's... you're looking for all of these things 21:04 but what I think is the key... one key element 21:08 to putting codependency in the past, 21:13 is to be vulnerable enough to be heard 21:17 because if you set aside the pride 21:21 and are willing to actually share something of yourself 21:24 and that's where I found group therapy 21:27 and... in my 12-Step Recovery Group 21:31 so healing for me was because I could actually say something 21:34 and not be interrupted, not be judged, 21:37 not have someone come back with some snarky little answer 21:40 but to be heard... and that to me, was very healing. 21:45 Could you give some direction 21:47 as to what kind group a person could go to 21:49 if they're in a similar situation, 21:51 can you give them some direction, 21:53 they're living in Timbuktu, 21:55 they realize they have a codependent relationship 21:58 what do they do? 21:59 Okay, well, if you're in Timbuktu, 22:02 you might not have a lot of resources. 22:05 In larger cities, there are, of course, 22:07 many different types of recovery groups... 22:09 you can be very specific 22:10 and just have a codependent recovery group for women 22:14 and that's great 22:15 but if you don't have that, 22:17 you could go to any recovery group 22:21 or even to create your own with people that you feel safe. 22:25 It just... it's a matter of 22:27 knowing that you can trust the people you are confiding in 22:32 and putting Jesus in the center of that 22:34 and knowing that you're not having a gossip session 22:37 or a condemnation fest... or, you know, something like that 22:43 but that you are actually admitting, 22:46 "This is who I am... this is where I'm struggling right now 22:49 and letting God and people hold you accountable. 22:53 Jennifer: That's right, it's not gossip... 22:55 you're not just feeding off the failings of others, 22:57 it's... you're sharing in a group 23:00 and everything that's said there... stays there. 23:02 Juliet: Exactly. 23:03 Christina: What would you say to the woman who have... 23:06 or even the men who have left... maybe a relationship... 23:09 but they haven't made that choice to maybe confront 23:11 how they have been damaged by a relationship such as yours, 23:15 how would they get to that point of even going to receive help, 23:19 I mean, what are your thoughts on that? 23:21 Well, I mean, just asking ourselves the question, 23:25 "What... how am I feeling, 23:28 like, how am I really feeling?" 23:30 Because sometimes, when we're addicted to relationships, 23:34 or codependent... we just... we're in denial... 23:38 and we're so busy... worried about how someone is feeling, 23:42 what are they doing? 23:43 We don't pay attention to ourselves. 23:45 We don't trust ourselves and in the 12 steps... 23:52 the 8th step is like... 23:53 making a list of all the people I've harmed 23:56 and be willing to make amends to them. 23:57 You know who's at the top of our list? 23:59 Myself... because I harm myself 24:03 when I'm busy being a guardian to everybody else. 24:07 Jennifer: And this is something that codependents don't get... 24:08 is that you are a person too... you're God's child 24:10 and you don't have a right to harm yourself 24:13 just because it's you... Juliet: Right. 24:15 Jennifer: Harming yourself is just as off limits 24:18 as harming another person would be. 24:20 That's something that... because a lot of times 24:23 people that are Christian and codependent 24:24 will mask their codependency with, 24:27 "Well, I'm so sacrificial... 24:28 look, I'm just willing to take all this... " 24:31 Juliet: Right, the martyr thing 24:32 but really just ask yourselves, 24:34 like, "Am I okay? Where am I God? 24:36 and Am I being kind to myself? 24:38 Am I treating myself with the respect that... " 24:40 Shelly: "That you want me to. " 24:42 Christina: And I thought it was interesting that you said that 24:44 when you hadn't come to that place yet 24:46 of admitting that you also had some things to work out... 24:49 that you went into workaholism... 24:51 you were trying to kind of, 24:52 "Let's try to avoid this in some way... in some fashion... " 24:56 and it was actually the ways of trying to cope with it 24:58 was actually hurting you even more. 25:00 Juliet: But work is an acceptable addiction, 25:02 especially in church... 25:03 Christina: Especially in the United States too, right. 25:05 Juliet: We could work all day long, I mean, as a teacher, 25:08 I could stay at school till 9 o'clock at night, 25:10 you know, and just avoid what was going on at home. 25:12 Christina: And you would be looked at as... 25:14 Shelly: Wonderful. Christina: Right... 25:16 Jennifer: Okay, I have a question for you, 25:17 you've been amazingly silent so I'm going to just... 25:21 you know me... so, what percentage of the 25:23 substance-addicted individuals that you work with 25:26 have someone enabling them? 25:28 Jean: It's not a scientific response 25:32 but I'd say, a 100 percent. 25:33 Jennifer: Okay, I thought you'd say that. 25:35 Jean: And the interesting thing that I wanted to ask was... 25:36 dealing with people that have addictions, 25:39 once they give those addictions up, they have... 25:41 so that's getting rid of a negative behavior 25:44 and you have to replace it with a positive one, 25:47 you mentioned "Christ... " that's obviously foremost... 25:49 you've mentioned "Group... " that's always a good thing to do 25:53 but I'm also interested, for the audience out there, 25:55 are there any down-to-earth practical things 25:57 that a person can do... 25:59 did you do anything... 26:00 and is it listed in your book, perhaps, 26:02 where you... maybe exercised more 26:04 or you did something... 26:05 not the workaholic thing 26:07 but some practical thing that somebody could do. 26:08 Jennifer: Self-care... Jean: Yeah, thank you... 26:09 self-care things that are really important, 26:11 did you have some fun? 26:13 Did you do anything interesting? 26:14 Juliet: Yeah, I always was just so serious and so driven 26:17 and so... 26:19 but learning how to have fun... how to play... 26:23 and becoming a mom recently has helped me also 26:26 to be able to kind of do that, to kind of have that outlet. 26:29 Give us just a nutshell 26:30 of what's going on with the "mom" thing. 26:32 Okay, well, this year I became a mom of 17-year-old boys... 26:37 teenagers... from Ukraine... 26:39 see, I got on to the parenting highway with no on-ramp... 26:45 90 miles an hour... 26:47 but I'm trying to have balance in my life... 26:51 and playing with them is one way to do that. 26:56 Jean: Good... good... 26:57 Jennifer: You know, there is a prayer in Psalm 139, 27:02 it says, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: 27:05 try me, and know my thoughts: 27:07 And see if there be any wicked way in me, 27:09 and lead me in the way everlasting. " 27:11 And that word, "wicked way" is from a mysterious Hebrew word 27:14 and it really means "way of pain" 27:16 and it also means, "way of idolatry" 27:18 so we all have idolatries in our lives 27:21 and we've been talking about one form... 27:23 very subtle form of idolatry 27:25 and Juliet Van Heerden has been extremely honest, 27:28 she has a wonderful book that goes into more detail 27:31 but pray that prayer and ask God, 27:34 "Show me if there's a way of pain in me 27:38 some way in which I am engaging in some kind of idolatry 27:42 that really looks very good on the outside 27:44 and I feel like a martyr or whatever... 27:45 or self-righteous 27:47 and lead me in the way of everlasting... 27:49 show me what is the next step to take 27:51 in my recovery journey. " 27:53 Thank you so much for joining us 27:55 and may God bless you abundantly. |
Revised 2017-08-29