Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170031A
00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 We're so glad you've joined us for our program today.
00:32 We're going to be talking about sleep and sleep deprivation
00:36 and insomnia and things like that.
00:38 But I want to ask you a question.
00:40 What do president Donald Trump, Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey,
00:44 Pepsico chairwoman Indra Nooyi, Entrepreneur Martha Stewart,
00:48 German Chancellor Angela Merkel,
00:51 and the late Thomas Edison
00:53 and Leonardo da Vinci have in common?
00:56 They all slept four hours or less per night.
01:00 Today our guest is one of those people that doesn't sleep...
01:04 Maybe not even four hours per night,
01:05 he's going to tell us about his miserable life of insomnia,
01:09 Shawn Boonstra.
01:10 You've tried so many things and so far no success.
01:13 Am I right? Yeah, that's probably true.
01:15 I think from about the age of eight on,
01:17 I don't remember ever sleeping through the whole night.
01:20 I don't have any recollection of ever going to bed
01:23 and waking up at morning time, at breakfast time and saying,
01:26 "Oh, I slept all night."
01:27 That's never happened for me.
01:29 And probably four or five hours on average.
01:30 Okay, all right.
01:31 You poor thing, I really feel for you, I do.
01:33 But I want to put some across to you, so normally,
01:36 sleep deprivation has been correlated
01:38 with a number of health problems,
01:40 memory issues, difficulty focusing, low mood,
01:43 reduced immune system function, accidents, no wonder there,
01:47 high blood pressure, weight gain, lower sex drive,
01:50 heart disease, diabetes risk, poor balance,
01:53 there's a condition called fatal familial insomnia,
01:55 only about 100 people in the world have it,
01:57 it's caused by a mutation of a gene,
01:59 and ultimately makes people unable to sleep.
02:02 They develop paranoia,
02:03 they ultimately develop dementia,
02:05 and they die.
02:07 So much to look forward to.
02:10 I regret coming on the show.
02:11 How is it for a prognosis, okay?
02:15 Okay, but there are basically two categories of individuals
02:18 who do not sleep much,
02:20 sleep deprivation survivors and short sleepers,
02:23 and I want to identify the difference.
02:25 Some people who seem to need little sleep,
02:28 actually just power through the effects
02:30 of sleep deprivation better than the rest of us.
02:33 But short sleepers are in a different category altogether,
02:36 so I'm going to quote Dr. Christopher Jones
02:38 professor of clinical neurology at the University of Utah,
02:41 and he says that he has only identified about
02:43 20 true short sleepers,
02:45 and he says that they share some
02:47 fascinating characteristics.
02:48 Number one,
02:49 their circadian rhythms are just different,
02:51 their body clock, so to speak, their moods tend to be upbeat,
02:55 they're thinner than average,
02:57 even though people that are sleep deprived
02:59 tend to gain weight,
03:00 they tend to have
03:01 a high tolerance for physical pain,
03:03 and they tend to be very optimistic
03:06 and not take psychological setbacks very hard.
03:10 So they are very buoyant people.
03:13 Short sleepers are part of the sleep elite,
03:15 comprising about one to three percent of the population.
03:18 Hope that makes you feel special.
03:20 And I'm quoting now,
03:22 "1 out of every 100 people who believe
03:24 they only need 5 or 6 hours of sleep,
03:27 only about 5 of them really do,"
03:29 and that's psychiatrist is Daniel Buysse,
03:31 and he says, "The rest end up chronically sleep deprived,
03:34 part of the one-third of the US adults
03:36 who get less than the recommended
03:38 seven hours of sleep per night."
03:40 So which one are you?
03:43 I don't know.
03:45 A short sleeper
03:46 or a sleep deprivation survivor, do you know?
03:50 I don't know because I think, sometimes,
03:53 I absolutely feel it.
03:55 I get little sleep, but I wish I got more.
03:57 So it's not like I sleep four hours and go,
04:00 "Oh, wow, that was great,"
04:01 and get on with the day and I'm happy about it.
04:04 Often, you know, what's strange is that
04:05 when 5 o'clock rolls around,
04:07 it's time to get up, now I could sleep.
04:09 Now I would love to sleep.
04:11 And so I don't know that I would say
04:12 that I'm one of those one percent
04:14 that can get by on 4 or 5 hours and loves it.
04:17 Do I power through?
04:19 Yeah, I power through it all the time.
04:21 I tend to be happy, I tend to be easygoing,
04:24 but I absolutely feel the effects
04:26 of sleep deprivation, particularly in the mornings.
04:29 You can't be a short sleeper then 'cause short sleepers
04:31 don't feel the effects of sleep deprivation,
04:33 they get four or less per night.
04:34 No, I often wish I could get more.
04:36 So what are the effects?
04:37 What effects that you feel, Shawn?
04:39 I think...
04:41 How do I describe this? I'll describe it this way.
04:43 In the morning, everything is too bright and loud,
04:45 everything is too bright and loud.
04:46 It's like, "Oh, turn down the lights,
04:48 turn down your voice,
04:49 I am not ready for this world yet."
04:51 Yeah, and so...
04:52 So you're the classic not a morning person.
04:55 No, and I've got a houseful of morning people.
04:58 I had a father, who is a...
05:00 Or still is, he's still around, a morning person,
05:03 he used to get up and do dishes at 5:00 in the morning
05:04 before he went to work, and I'd be, "Oh, no, no."
05:07 And he would sing as he was washing the dishes.
05:09 To this day, there's a certain
05:11 little Bible course I hate seeing it.
05:16 Do you think you might have some sensory processing stuff
05:18 because it sounds like you really react to sights
05:20 and sounds, you know, pretty intensely.
05:22 No, no, it's just... I can't...
05:26 You guys are the experts, that's why I'm here.
05:28 You're here to fix me.
05:30 We hope to.
05:32 We're going to try our absolute best.
05:33 I find sounds...
05:36 I find sounds annoying, loud sounds and sharp sounds
05:40 annoying all day long anyway.
05:41 I mean, that's an issue, and I hear everything.
05:44 I used to as a kid, and this maybe
05:46 led to not sleeping well at night.
05:48 I hear absolutely everything.
05:50 It's like what is the...
05:52 There's a gland that serves as an organ that...
05:55 Or as a filter that tells you what to hear
05:57 and what not to hear.
05:58 And I tend to hear more than most people in a room.
06:00 Maybe it doesn't work.
06:01 It could be that it doesn't work.
06:03 I used to look for my watch.
06:04 Back then when watches ticked, you know,
06:05 you wound them up and they ticked.
06:07 As a little boy, I used to look for my watch
06:09 by standing in my bedroom and closing my eyes
06:11 and listening for the ticking.
06:12 You have very good hearing.
06:13 I did, maybe it's ruined now, but yeah.
06:16 So that is always sensitive. So you're sensitive.
06:18 So we were talking before about how you
06:21 function best cognitively at night, late at night.
06:24 Oh, yeah, absolutely.
06:25 'Cause I'm the sharpest in the morning
06:27 when I first wake up.
06:28 Yeah, you and my wife.
06:30 She outwits me, you know, five to one in the morning
06:32 'cause I can't formulate decent responses,
06:34 I actually trip up on words in the morning.
06:37 Really? Yeah.
06:38 And I can't concentrate on...
06:40 If I have to prep for something,
06:41 first thing in the morning is not a good idea.
06:43 So for example, if I've got a presentation tomorrow,
06:45 I'll go over it at 11:00 PM at night out loud,
06:49 and then I've got it forever, you know?
06:50 But first thing in the morning...
06:52 You won't retain it if you do in the morning.
06:53 No, not at all. How about that?
06:54 That's so odd. Not at all.
06:56 So Shawn, what does powering through look like?
07:02 Well, you get up and you go to work anyway,
07:04 you're exhausted.
07:06 Well, there are plenty of people
07:07 that end up addicted to power drinks,
07:11 caffeine, all that jazz,
07:13 I'm not a not expecting you to be in that category,
07:16 but I wanted to know what your powering through looks like?
07:20 How do you do it?
07:21 You just do it.
07:23 I don't know how you explain it.
07:24 You know, I tend to go for a walk in the mornings,
07:26 I try to do between five and six miles
07:28 before I go to work, and that gets you kind of...
07:31 And that'll raise your epinephrine levels.
07:33 And get you outside,
07:35 you get a little sunlight on your skin,
07:36 and your body says, "Wake up time."
07:37 Helps you get circulation,
07:39 you're lymphic system is moving.
07:41 Yeah, yeah, I'll do anywhere between 5 and 10.
07:44 So would you say that there are some baseline anxieties
07:46 that are driving the insomnia or is it not that deep?
07:49 Do we have to talk about that? Yeah, it's why you're here.
07:52 You want us to fix you, right?
07:54 This will cost you about $400 in a normal setting, so...
07:58 Oh, no, no, no, we're way more expensive.
07:59 Yeah, exactly, maybe five, six...
08:01 Four of you working on me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
08:04 I cannot.
08:05 I think one of the key issues is
08:08 I can't turn my mind off at night.
08:10 Now, I look at Jean.
08:11 Jean and I've been married 25 years.
08:13 And she can fall asleep hanging in her seatbelt
08:16 on the drive home.
08:17 I don't know how she does it.
08:19 She goes to bed, and two seconds later,
08:21 she's gone, head hits the pillow.
08:24 It doesn't matter what time I go to bed,
08:26 I need two or three hours in bed
08:28 for my mind to quiet down.
08:29 There's no question about it.
08:31 Two or three hours before you...
08:32 Oh, yeah, I lay in bed for two or three hours before I...
08:34 You read while you're doing that or you're just staring?
08:36 Yeah, I read, I take notes or I listen to something.
08:39 I don't want to waste the time. I want education.
08:41 I'm up... But you're in bed.
08:43 Yeah, absolutely.
08:45 Okay, so you're kind of trying to shut down,
08:46 but it takes you two to three hours
08:48 to shut down.
08:49 Oh, yeah, usually.
08:51 There's no going to bed and falling asleep for me,
08:52 it's two to three hours.
08:54 So have you heard of the concept of sleep hygiene?
08:56 I'm sure you have. Yeah, yeah.
08:58 So one of those thoughts is whatever you do
09:01 for your evening routine, if it takes two hours,
09:06 do all of that outside of your bedroom.
09:09 Yeah, and I've gone that route,
09:10 and so what happens is I do that two to three hours
09:12 of that outside the bedroom, and I go to bed,
09:14 and then spend two or three hours.
09:16 With the next phase. Okay. Yeah.
09:17 So you said, you can't turn your mind off,
09:19 do you have a wild guess about whether
09:21 there are some unresolved anxieties,
09:23 maybe trauma that occurred in your...
09:25 Is there anything that's... No, I don't think so.
09:28 No, unless I'm hiding or repressing something,
09:30 I don't think so. I can't just turn the day off.
09:34 I need resolution on everything that happens.
09:35 What kinds of things do you think about
09:37 when you're lying there trying to shut down?
09:39 Well, things start occurring to you.
09:41 Oh, my goodness, tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM,
09:43 you're giving this.
09:45 Are you sure that it's ready yet?
09:46 You know what, you should touch this up a little bit.
09:48 Okay, pop up, fix that. And you touch it up.
09:50 And touch it up.
09:52 Oh, my goodness, where are the receipts,
09:53 it's going to be tax time in 90 days.
09:56 And you really have this or that receipt.
09:58 I better go find it.
09:59 And then I go find it, and then...
10:01 You get out of bed and go find it?
10:02 Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
10:03 And you do that for two or three hours,
10:05 and keep going back to bed and try to shut down.
10:06 Yeah, that drives my wife nuts.
10:09 I can only imagine.
10:10 At one point, I actually moved a desk in beside my bed
10:13 instead of a nightstand so that I didn't have to leave
10:17 to get things done.
10:18 But Jean shut that down really quick,
10:20 it didn't last very long.
10:21 A little desk with a lamp, and I turn the light on,
10:23 and sit there, and take care of it.
10:25 Does she stay awake because you're awake
10:26 or is she able to sleep through your not being able to sleep?
10:28 Before we had kids,
10:30 she never noticed that we were...
10:32 And then once we had kids, of course,
10:33 her sleep pattern changed.
10:34 Because she's trying to listen for babies.
10:36 She's trying to listen for the kids.
10:37 And she got a big old baby there in a room
10:40 making a mess out of things.
10:42 Yeah, so she notices more now.
10:47 And I don't know how much I can betray on that,
10:50 to the point now where we were...
10:52 Jean, forgive me, I'm about to do this,
10:54 I'm about to do this.
10:57 We're now Ricky and Lucy, we got rid of the king bed,
11:00 and we put two twin beds with a gap about
11:02 six inches between it
11:03 so that she doesn't feel me kicking my legs.
11:05 I totally get that.
11:06 Yeah, and getting up, and...
11:08 I doesn't mean anything about your love for each other,
11:10 it's just you can't sleep in the same bed, it's okay.
11:13 We are giving you permission,
11:14 and we will not think you're on the edge of divorce.
11:16 That's not such a bad idea.
11:18 When we first got married, my husband was...
11:20 He's the morning person, I'm not,
11:22 so I would want to be able to stay away at night,
11:24 but he crashed.
11:26 The man turns into a pumpkin at 9:00.
11:28 But he would bound out of bed, like literally,
11:30 the whole bed leaped when he got out of bed,
11:32 he'd wake up, zip-zam and he'd jump,
11:34 and the whole bed would go...
11:36 And I would go...
11:37 You weren't ready to get up yet.
11:38 Let's not do that again.
11:40 So we...
11:42 And when she was getting up and stuff,
11:44 I'd finally fall asleep, and then a kid cries,
11:46 I'm up and she tensed it 'cause she's got a...
11:48 She sleeps through it? What's that?
11:50 When you had little children,
11:52 she would sleep through the children crying?
11:53 No, never.
11:54 No, never, but if I happen to fall asleep
11:56 and she got up to address a need.
11:57 Then you'd be... Yeah.
11:59 Yeah. Yeah.
12:01 Where are you in terms of your sleep pattern presently?
12:04 Are you at a place where you've accepted this as your norm
12:07 and you are content or are you still...
12:09 Resignation is probably a better word than accept.
12:12 Here I am, I'm here on the show
12:13 because would I love to sleep more?
12:16 Would I love to sleep normally?
12:18 Yeah, I really would.
12:20 So resignation is a good word.
12:22 So maybe it'll never be different.
12:23 You know, I've done a little asking around, my grandmother,
12:25 she's been gone for a long time,
12:27 grandma on the dad's side, she never slept,
12:29 and so I don't know if there's a genetic determination
12:32 or if we're just...
12:33 Worrying is a hard word for it, but I can't turn it off.
12:37 I don't know if I'm anxious.
12:39 Maybe I'm anxious enough to keep me awake,
12:41 but I can't just stop.
12:43 Okay, so put in a sentence what is the baseline fear
12:47 going on there when you're thinking about the taxes,
12:49 you said you're thinking about the presentation,
12:50 what are you thinking I will not be what?
12:52 What's it saying about? Ready, I won't be ready.
12:54 I won't be ready.
12:55 What's so scary about that?
12:57 I like being ready.
12:58 You like being ready, but what happens if you're not ready,
13:00 it's a lost what?
13:02 Fear of lost opportunity. Yeah.
13:04 Okay, that's real common with anxiety is people are afraid.
13:08 I remember my family going off to...
13:10 They're going to go out to eat, I didn't want to come,
13:12 I was a teenager, and I was like,
13:13 "Leave me alone, I don't want to be with the family."
13:15 As they were pulling out of the driveway,
13:17 that little family station wagon,
13:18 I freaked out and start chasing the car screaming,
13:21 "Come back, come back"
13:22 'cause of fear of being left behind
13:24 or lost opportunity.
13:26 And I am finding counseling people
13:27 that that's a common baseline fear that people have.
13:30 I'm not going to make it.
13:31 Somehow something is going to be left undone,
13:35 and I'm going to miss out on something.
13:36 Undone bothers me.
13:38 Yeah, so talk to me about how you as an evangelist
13:41 who are helping people get ready for the ultimate
13:45 potential lost opportunity, Jesus coming...
13:48 calming those people down and still worried about
13:50 missing out yourself?
13:54 I have...
13:56 I guess I've compartmentalize that.
13:57 I think that would be the fair way to describe it
14:00 because I have zero anxiety about my ultimate destiny,
14:05 I have none, zero.
14:07 I don't worry.
14:08 If I die tonight, I'm safe with the Lord.
14:10 If Jesus comes today, I'm good.
14:12 And so I suppose I've compartmentalized
14:13 those in my brain is that's a different issue.
14:16 But couldn't they believe...
14:17 I mean, shouldn't there be some bleed over
14:18 because isn't the ultimate loss salvation?
14:21 Well, absolutely.
14:23 And what keeps you from being afraid of losing that?
14:29 Being afraid, what keeps me from
14:30 being afraid of losing self...
14:31 Of losing that, how do you get that security?
14:33 Is it in something you've done or not done
14:35 or is it in the character of God.
14:36 Because if he can find that. Yeah, that...
14:39 I have never had a moment of insecurity about salvation.
14:43 I've never had. But on what basis, you know?
14:45 Basis is God's word. God says, "This is it."
14:48 And so it doesn't matter how I feel about it, right?
14:51 One of the biggest breakthrough moments for me
14:53 was when somebody showed me.
14:55 I grew up around Christians,
14:57 and I grew up around Christians that had all...
14:59 They love to give these testimonies
15:00 where they had these really profound
15:02 conversion experiences.
15:04 "Oh, you know,
15:05 I felt an electricity going through my body."
15:07 And I think, "Well, wait a minute,
15:08 I said the prayer too, and I felt nothing,
15:09 and what in the world..."
15:12 And then somebody showed me 1 John 5,
15:13 "These things I have written unto you that you may know."
15:16 Not that you may feel.
15:18 So how I feel is irrelevant to how God views me.
15:21 It's completely irrelevant.
15:23 Am I cognizant of the fact
15:24 that if I had to stand before God's throne,
15:26 it would be a wilting experience
15:28 because I know who I am?
15:29 Sure, I know who I am.
15:31 Yeah, and I look in the mirror, and I know that I'm not...
15:33 I know who I am.
15:34 I've seen the real me peek through.
15:36 But you've also seen the love and character of God.
15:37 Yeah, but the real Jesus
15:39 peeking through has handled that,
15:40 that's done, right?
15:41 That's done.
15:43 I don't know that it's so much a fear
15:44 of not being ready for things, I am driven.
15:49 Maybe, maybe it's the Dutch immigrant mentality.
15:54 If you're going to work, you do it a 1000%,
15:57 you do your very best.
15:58 And my question is... Type A, super driven...
16:00 Have you ever... "Is it my best?"
16:01 Is the question that bothers me more than am I going to lose.
16:03 Okay, have you ever tried under-functioning
16:05 just to sort of help yourself face your biggest fear.
16:08 I would never.
16:09 It's just an experiment.
16:11 Just as an experiment. Really?
16:12 I tell people like you...
16:15 leave some typos in your emails,
16:16 do something.
16:18 No, oh, are you kidding me?
16:19 We're going to... You need to get past this.
16:20 Yeah, yeah.
16:22 You've got to be kidding.
16:23 How are you going to get past this?
16:24 Oh, you've touched something there.
16:26 There is no way.
16:27 You have a desire for improvement, right?
16:28 You don't want to be in this perpetual sleep state,
16:32 and so we're suggesting an alternative,
16:34 that you can possibly...
16:36 You know that if I keep something...
16:37 Maybe you are under-functioning
16:39 in the area of anxiety handling,
16:40 and maybe the way to help yourself function better
16:44 is to under-function in other areas.
16:46 If I find a tweet from last year
16:48 that I sent out with a typo in it,
16:49 I will delete it and retweet it from a year ago.
16:53 I purposely leave typos in my tweets
16:56 to rebuke my inner Pharisee, and my inner perfectionist.
17:01 Inner Pharisee?
17:02 Perfectionism is a better way. Perfectionism, yeah.
17:04 Yeah, better word, I do it on purpose.
17:06 I see the typo often after I've tweeted, I'm like,
17:09 "Oh, I didn't see it before."
17:11 But I'll leave it there for the purpose of helping me
17:14 not be a perfectionist.
17:16 I'm going to reveal something
17:17 that I've never wanted to reveal.
17:19 And counselors love that, oh.
17:20 So watch you guys light up, looking at you light up.
17:21 Oh, it's not that dark.
17:23 No, no, I studied music formally for nine years
17:27 at the Toronto Conservatory.
17:29 And in that environment what you do
17:32 is you take something on,
17:33 I'm not going to say what I did,
17:35 but you take something on.
17:36 You take on a Beethoven or a...
17:37 Because I don't want to start performing.
17:41 I haven't touched it in 30 years.
17:42 I haven't touched it in 30 years.
17:44 But you take something, a Beethoven,
17:47 and you work on it for 6 months for one performance,
17:51 and that one performance...
17:52 Has to be perfect. Has to be perfect.
17:54 And there was something thrilling about that,
17:57 I've got to tell you, the psychological payoff
18:01 for getting up from the instrument,
18:03 and you nailed it, and it's one time.
18:06 You go six months for three minutes.
18:10 But, Shawn, why did you not touch it for 30 years?
18:12 What happened there? I got busy doing...
18:14 I became a Christian, I became an evangelist.
18:16 But if someone is a musician, they go back, and they play,
18:19 and they have...
18:20 They do it to relax, but you can't do it to relax.
18:22 Play a different song.
18:23 Oh, I listen to people, but I can hear their mistakes.
18:27 You got to play a different song.
18:30 I have got to go back to your desire for change.
18:34 And if that is true, which I perceive,
18:37 we perceive that you truly want to have more sleep in your life
18:41 to have more productivity,
18:43 what one thing are you willing to do differently?
18:47 'Cause we can put you on a plane right now
18:49 after the show to the best facility we know.
18:52 I'm kidding.
18:54 I've been in a sleep lab, I've been in a sleep lab,
18:56 and they just kind of shook their heads.
18:58 One of the things we're talking about is you not being perfect,
19:03 you're doing something in your life
19:05 to minimize your desire for perfection.
19:08 Is there one area that you could challenge yourself?
19:14 When I derive joy from something
19:18 I know could have been better,
19:19 I have to admit, I enjoy when we do something well.
19:23 But can't you change the game to doing anxiety defeat
19:27 better than you're doing by avoiding...
19:29 In order to get more sleep.
19:32 I suppose.
19:33 For example, my husband has the same thing that you have,
19:37 this insatiable drive for excellence,
19:40 it must be done well.
19:42 And especially when it's something
19:43 that's done in public, he has to get it done well.
19:46 And so I can predict, I know if he's preaching the next day,
19:49 and he doesn't feel that the sermon is quite right,
19:51 he's going to be wide awake at 2:00 in the morning,
19:54 because he can't sleep.
19:55 Oh, sermons wake me up.
19:57 Because he has to get it right before hand.
20:00 So we have two different options.
20:03 Sometimes, it's a matter of not putting it off
20:06 until the last minute, getting everything ready,
20:09 but I find that still is never fully enough
20:11 because he still has that tension
20:14 that jangling of nerves that makes him pop out of bed.
20:18 But what is helpful is being able to rest and going,
20:22 "It's going to be fine if it's not perfect.
20:26 It doesn't have to be excellent
20:27 in every way possible for me to be a success."
20:30 In fact, sometimes, knowing that he isn't really prepared
20:34 is the thing that helps him to depend more on the Lord.
20:37 I was just going to say that.
20:38 The same kind of security you have in your salvation.
20:41 You talked about that.
20:43 There's no question in your mind, you know that.
20:45 Can you have that same level of security
20:48 in that desire for perfection?
20:51 Can you minimize that with the security in Christ?
20:54 That is good... Because what often happens...
20:57 I don't know if that would drive me more nuts.
20:59 No, I'm being honest, I'm just being right upfront,
21:01 is that the suggestion bothers me.
21:04 Why? What bothers you?
21:05 We can see that. You're sweating.
21:06 One of my favorite stories...
21:08 I sweat all the time, it's over 60 degrees in here,
21:09 I'm Canadian.
21:11 Why does that suggestion bother you?
21:13 One of my favorite stories,
21:14 I don't know if it's a Michelangelo story,
21:16 it's probably apocryphal.
21:17 It's just a sky building a planter box,
21:19 and he's doing the inside perfectly.
21:22 And some guy goes by saying, "What's the point?
21:23 It's gonna be filled with dirt anyway?"
21:26 And he says, "No one's ever going to see it."
21:28 And he says, "Yeah, but..."
21:30 I will. I will.
21:34 You're your own worst tyrant.
21:35 Oh, probably yeah.
21:37 Sermons, there you go.
21:38 People struggle with this.
21:40 They say, "No, no, you get up front all the time.
21:42 You speak all the time."
21:43 What they don't understand is
21:45 I will spend for an hour long sermon,
21:46 I will on average spend
21:48 between 40 to 100 hours in prep,
21:50 40 to 100 hours because...
21:53 Which I'm thankful for,
21:55 and it makes it much easier to listen to you preach.
21:57 When a pastor gets up and like,
21:58 "I don't know what I'm going to talk about today."
21:59 It's always like, "Okay, here we go."
22:01 No, and see that's not a God like attitude anyway.
22:03 It's interesting that you bring that up
22:05 because I've actually been trying to coach
22:06 myself in those lines.
22:08 It's like, "Don't you trust God?
22:09 And don't you trust Him?
22:11 And don't you remember the moments
22:12 where you got up you threw it all away anyway
22:14 and went off the cuff because God..."
22:15 But it's not a don't you
22:17 because it's very clear that you do.
22:18 Yeah. So because I trust God, I will.
22:22 Well, that's for sure.
22:23 She is saying take the things that you have done so well
22:25 in one area and apply them
22:27 to this area that you were saying,
22:28 which is brilliant I think.
22:29 Couldn't you do that?
22:31 Couldn't you say, "Look, I have no fear"?
22:32 And couldn't you say, "I will survive this experience
22:34 of even my own tyranny not undoing me"?
22:37 I will let it go
22:38 and trust that the God I trust will take care of it.
22:42 I will do my best.
22:43 And trust God to do the rest for me.
22:45 Because fear is a liar.
22:47 No, I concur.
22:49 I concur that fear is a liar.
22:50 Well, here's another way you could take that is,
22:52 what about people who can't power through perfectionism
22:56 as well as you are,
22:57 and it really does become their own doing,
22:59 people with OCD who end up like wanting to suicide.
23:02 It happens.
23:03 So you would be setting an example for them.
23:05 I went ahead and published a tweet
23:07 and left it a typo in it.
23:09 And I know this will help you too
23:10 because it helped me get,
23:12 you know, you're living in a way you're saying...
23:13 Honestly. Challenging myself.
23:16 I'm fighting against my desire but yet I am...
23:19 No, that OCD is interesting.
23:23 What would you define as OCD?
23:24 OCD is two characteristics.
23:26 It's you have... Obsession.
23:28 Obsessions where you have invasive thoughts
23:31 that come into your mind about a variety of things, germs,
23:33 turn the iron off, sometimes religious things...
23:36 Oh, is the house locked?
23:37 Is the house locked? Yeah.
23:38 About three times a week I drive back to double check.
23:40 And the compulsions are designed
23:43 to lower the anxiety that you're experiencing
23:46 because of the invasive thoughts.
23:47 So the obsession comes, you're scared.
23:49 You do the compulsion to try to...
23:51 but it only temporarily lowers the anxiety
23:53 and then it comes back with a vengeance.
23:54 So you end up doing it over and over and over.
23:56 And the treatment for OCD
23:58 is called exposure and response prevention.
24:00 So if a person is afraid of germs,
24:02 they have to leave the germs on the doorknob.
24:04 And they sit there and self-observe and they go,
24:06 "You know, it bothers me."
24:08 They're being honest.
24:09 "But it's not killing me.
24:10 And I'm doing my deep breathing and I'm getting through this.
24:12 And I don't have to wash off that doorknob."
24:15 And it's called the systematic desensitization,
24:17 it's another word for it.
24:18 But you could do that for yourself maybe.
24:21 I think the critical issue...
24:23 You guys are laughing but, you know...
24:25 We don't know how hard it is. It suits for you.
24:26 Everything in this picture is about motivation.
24:29 It's about the heart.
24:30 And I think looking at what's motivating you to be so driven
24:35 could be useful.
24:36 It's a mix of things.
24:38 I think part of what's motivating you
24:39 to desire excellence is your desire
24:42 to glorify God with your whole heart your whole life.
24:44 And that's beautiful and that's powerful
24:46 and God wants that.
24:47 But maybe part of your motivation is also fear.
24:50 Could be fear of what other people think of you,
24:52 fear of what you'll feel like about yourself
24:54 if you don't have everything perfect.
24:56 And God wants to continually purify our motivations
24:59 so that He moves us toward being motivated
25:02 only by love and not by the other things.
25:04 There might be something to that.
25:06 'Cause you might be able to help so many more people
25:11 that have the exact same fear
25:13 that you have about their salvation.
25:18 By you working through this issue...
25:21 You will maybe able to communicate
25:23 a different level of breakthrough
25:25 for so many people
25:26 because we work with the people
25:28 that are scared out of their minds...
25:30 That they're not going to make it.
25:31 They're not gonna be ready
25:33 because they've got all these other issues in their life.
25:36 So, Shawn, we want to help you so you can help the rest.
25:39 You have a big reach.
25:42 You know, when it comes to the salvation question
25:45 and helping those,
25:47 I guess I do compartmentalize it
25:48 because a long time ago,
25:50 I gave up on the idea that you can earn heaven
25:53 or I'm not perfect that's the whole point of the story.
25:58 Nicole, you said something a moment ago that...
26:01 We don't want you to become perfectionistic
26:02 about having to overcome your perfectionism.
26:05 Seriously. No, seriously because you...
26:06 May just be it's almost like a facial tick.
26:08 You just have this,
26:09 you know, it's a thing that you do, you know?
26:10 I enjoy doing well at things.
26:13 Yeah. But that's...
26:14 Nothing is as mortifying.
26:16 That I wonder if that payback also has a price.
26:18 I don't know.
26:20 I don't tend to lay away.
26:21 Like not sleeping and things like that.
26:23 Yeah, not sleeping. Yeah.
26:24 Things aren't done is really the thing that,
26:27 "Is that ready? Is it ready?"
26:28 Would you be willing to experiment?
26:31 In other words, you'd have to commit yourself
26:32 to a new way of doing things
26:33 but try doing it a different way,
26:35 like try underfunctioning sometimes
26:38 or try imperfection sometimes.
26:39 Yeah, I'd try that. For a few days maybe.
26:42 That might be a blubbering mess at the end of the day,
26:44 but yeah.
26:45 Initially. You know, I just...
26:47 We can provide that plane ride to the support center though.
26:52 You said something, Nicole,
26:54 I want to circle back to because...
26:55 and it was something to do with...
26:58 it triggered a thought
26:59 because I do suffer from that naked in class dream.
27:04 You get that one? Yeah I had that dream.
27:06 I didn't know anybody else did.
27:09 Only us perfectionists can.
27:10 It's your final exam and you can't find the room.
27:13 Yes. Yeah.
27:15 I don't show up to class all semester
27:16 and find out I'm halfway through the semester
27:18 and I still haven't made it to a class.
27:20 Yeah, yeah.
27:21 You're not gonna graduate
27:22 because you didn't show up to calculus class
27:24 you didn't even know you were enrolled in.
27:25 Because you weren't ready.
27:26 Because I wasn't ready. That's all true.
27:28 It's a similar thing.
27:30 This is so grippingly interesting,
27:31 and we're gonna have to carry it on
27:33 in the second half of the program.
27:34 So, folks, please join us
27:36 because we're just getting warmed up here.
27:38 We're digging down into the depths
27:40 of the psyche of Shawn Buster
27:42 which is a privilege that...
27:43 It's a dark place.
27:45 Few people have in life.
27:47 And not only one or two or three
27:50 but four of us are working on this project
27:52 that we hope to resolve.
27:53 Please join us for the second half of the man
27:55 who almost never slept.