Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170032A
00:26 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:28 This is part two of the man who almost never slept.
00:31 Our guest is Shawn Boonstra, and he is the director
00:36 and principal speaker
00:37 and communicator of the Voice...
00:39 Voice of Prophecy. Prophecy.
00:40 I'm sorry, I didn't say that in the last segment.
00:43 And I forgot to introduce
00:44 my illustrious panel of counselors as well,
00:47 who pretty much, you know...
00:49 They are the squirm makers. Bright, shine openers.
00:52 They make me squirm.
00:54 We're going to continue the squirming process.
00:55 But let me introduce my friends here.
00:56 This is Nicole Parker.
00:58 She's a biblical counselor from Tennessee
01:00 and Dr. Nivischi Edwards from Tennessee,
01:03 soon to move to Georgia.
01:04 This is Shelley Wiggins,
01:06 our professional counselor from Michigan.
01:07 And we have the wonderful challenge today
01:09 of helping Shawn Boonstra with his sleep issues.
01:12 But as we, sort of,
01:14 probed what was going on with the sleeplessness,
01:17 we realized that there was an element
01:18 of perfectionist anxiety
01:20 and perfectionism in Shawn.
01:22 And we are still, kind of,
01:24 wondering if that's leading to the sleeplessness
01:27 or if maybe there's just a baseline anxiety
01:30 and a baseline dim, he says no.
01:32 It certainly was there in the beginning.
01:34 The anxiety seems like such a...
01:39 Word other than...
01:41 You know, anxiety makes it sound like...
01:43 I'm nail-biting and sweating.
01:46 Maybe it qualifies as anxiety anyway.
01:49 I'm just... My brain is active.
01:51 Yeah, very active brain.
01:53 But also fearful, I would say,
01:55 of things not being as good as you want them to be.
01:58 And that's where we broke down
02:00 is that you have compartmentalized
02:01 and have full confidence
02:02 that you're going to be in heaven with Jesus.
02:04 Oh, yeah.
02:05 No spiritual fear.
02:07 But you've God fear that you won't do your best.
02:09 And so you have this perfectionism
02:12 at work in that arena...
02:14 In some areas, you know, for example,
02:16 I hold large city evangelistic campaigns.
02:19 And those are massive undertakings.
02:21 There are 20-hour days, there...
02:25 And I noticed some years ago, I stopped worrying about them,
02:28 "Don't worry, we've had 100 of them,
02:30 they all went well, and then it's going to be fine.
02:32 God's running this show."
02:33 Okay, that's good.
02:35 So, you know, have I learned that?
02:36 Yeah, to some extent.
02:38 And, you know, between shows, we were talking little bit,
02:41 "Am I better than I used to be?"
02:42 Yeah, I don't worry like I used to.
02:45 And you also when you are awake at night,
02:48 which you still are a lot,
02:49 you don't ruminate on the things
02:51 that you would use
02:52 to ruminate on and worry about?
02:54 True? True.
02:55 I think it's definitely better than it was say 10...
02:58 And my wife will tell you,
03:00 she thinks maybe it's just middle age coming around
03:01 and I'm getting mellower.
03:03 Mellowing out a little bit.
03:04 That's what she says, "I like you,
03:05 I like you like this.
03:07 You're mellower than you used to be."
03:08 Yeah, it could be related to testosterone levels.
03:09 I don't want to get too personal here, but...
03:11 No, that's probably true.
03:12 Lower testosterone will mellow a guy out.
03:14 But I have a question for you.
03:15 We've been talking about
03:17 your willingness level to experiment...
03:19 Yeah, I know, and it's driving me nuts.
03:21 With not being a perfectionist.
03:22 So, for instance, we suggested leaving a typo in a tweet.
03:25 And you just about had a meltdown
03:26 right in the chair when I suggested that.
03:28 Yes. So I want to ask...
03:30 I crawled under the table and wept a little.
03:33 So I want to ask you something.
03:35 If you knew that by setting the example
03:39 of being imperfect and being okay with it,
03:41 you could help another person
03:44 who was really struggling
03:45 and whose perfectionism was really hurting them,
03:47 would you do it for that reason?
03:50 That's a good question.
03:51 I don't know that I know the answer.
03:53 I talk a pretty good game
03:54 with other people who are wrestling with it,
03:56 telling them, "Just let it go.
03:57 Don't you trust God?" I talk a really good game.
03:59 But what if they aren't going to accept your words,
04:01 they want to see your example?
04:04 Would you be willing to experiment?
04:05 Would you be willing to take one for the team
04:08 an experiment...
04:09 Yeah. Maybe showing other people?
04:11 Doing it for altruistic reasons,
04:12 I want this person because for them,
04:15 like for me it's going to make me
04:16 a great writer, evangelist,
04:17 but for them, it's going to make some...
04:19 You know, I find curious as I've done some thinking.
04:22 In some areas, I do do that.
04:24 I don't mind making mistakes in a public evangelism.
04:28 I don't care if I misstate something,
04:29 I don't care if I make a mistake,
04:31 and in a recording, I don't.
04:33 If I make a mistake in a TV show,
04:35 I don't let them stop.
04:36 "Don't stop it. Don't go back.
04:37 I made a mistake." Okay, all right.
04:39 So in some areas, I'm perfectly fine with that.
04:41 I am very comfortable in my skin,
04:43 I like being who I am,
04:44 and I don't care that I mess up.
04:46 As a matter of fact, I admit it to the audience up front.
04:50 You know, I mess up five times a day.
04:52 I'll tell them a story from my day
04:53 so the audience understands
04:55 that even though I'm up front, I'm not perfect.
04:56 Okay, humanizes you. That's exactly right.
04:58 So you're familiar with the process of humanize.
04:59 Yeah. So I do that.
05:00 And so in some areas, I'm perfectly fine with that.
05:04 I don't mind being imperfect. I really don't.
05:07 But in other areas, is it done? Is it done bothers me.
05:11 I think that's probably the,
05:13 is it done bothers me more than, am I perfect.
05:17 Okay, all right.
05:19 So, Shawn, you mentioned
05:20 that you have racing thoughts at night.
05:22 Oh, yeah. You can't shut your brain down.
05:23 Oh, that's right.
05:25 Okay, so how do you shut your computer down?
05:27 I close the lid.
05:28 So that it's really easy to open again to and...
05:29 Like a force.
05:32 So you don't... There is no shutdown.
05:34 You don't shut it down, you just close it.
05:35 I've never turned my laptop off ever.
05:38 So your laptop works like your brain.
05:39 Oh, yeah, it's on all the time.
05:41 Would you be willing to hear a few suggestions?
05:42 Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Okay.
05:44 So you have a screen? Yep.
05:45 It's your brain. Yep.
05:46 And all these little icons are popped up, okay?
05:49 And there's these little boxes, you know what they look like?
05:52 You click on them, and it shuts them down,
05:54 and they go into their appropriate files, okay?
05:58 If you wanted to do that on paper, first,
06:01 we can show you how to do that,
06:03 and then you actually shut it down.
06:04 Paper makes sense
06:06 because I've told myself, "Okay,
06:07 that's done till tomorrow, that's done till tomorrow.
06:09 Put it away, put it away, put it away."
06:11 Two minutes later... It pops back.
06:13 It pops back up.
06:15 There's something about the hand will write...
06:19 What the mouse can't say or what not.
06:20 So if you get physically up out of bed
06:23 and go to a different room, and that's important,
06:26 and do this exercise, and then go back to your room.
06:29 Wait, you get up and what do you do?
06:30 You go...
06:32 You have to leave your space of sleep.
06:35 And go do the exercise,
06:37 do this exercise outside of your sacred space
06:41 because the bed is for two things,
06:43 and I'm not going to say what all those two things are,
06:46 but if you take care of...
06:49 Sleep and... Shawn...
06:53 We have a plane waiting for you.
06:54 Yes. Okay.
06:56 Jean's already packed your bags.
06:58 If you want change... She ought to pack a lot.
06:59 If you want change, we can help you.
07:01 Yeah. No. Okay.
07:02 No, seriously, if this works,
07:03 if you leave where you're sleeping
07:05 and go to a different room
07:06 and take care of what's on your mind,
07:08 if it's writing lists,
07:10 if it's bullet points, whatever you've got...
07:12 That I've learned...
07:13 I've learned to do it, I write it down
07:14 so that it's okay to leave it behind
07:16 because tomorrow the list is there.
07:18 It'll be there on the kitchen table.
07:19 But then you go back to your bed
07:21 where it supposed to be for your brain to sleep.
07:22 Now that makes sense. Now I do not...
07:23 That does make sense. I do not leave the bed.
07:26 I just deal with it there. I have a notepad on the...
07:29 All sleep hygiene protocols will tell you
07:30 to leave your space you're sleeping
07:32 because you'll develop an association
07:34 with your place of sleep
07:35 between anxiety and trouble and problems
07:37 and your place of sleep.
07:39 And that does make some good sense.
07:40 That makes a lot of sense. The brains makes a lot...
07:42 I'm not good at leaving... So because it makes sense...
07:43 Yes. Is it possible...
07:45 Now here it comes, here it comes.
07:47 She's going to preach now.
07:48 Is it possible that we could have buy-in?
07:52 It makes sense so I'm then willing...
07:53 Oh, yeah, I'm willing to do that.
07:55 So do you... Oh, I'm willing to do that.
07:56 Okay. Here you go. Will you sign the contract?
07:58 Yeah, yeah, I'll sign it right there really.
08:00 It's a treatment plan, Shawn. Yeah.
08:02 No, I'm willing to do that. Okay.
08:03 So... I'm willing to...
08:05 And that's an easy change to make.
08:06 So can you verbalize
08:08 what it is that you're willing to do differently?
08:09 I'm willing to leave the bed if I'm not sleeping
08:12 and go somewhere else to deal with things,
08:15 and then come back just for sleep.
08:16 Jean, did you hear that?
08:18 Do you know that like you said you tried everything
08:19 and that's the basic?
08:21 Well, I have done it.
08:22 Okay, let me explain what's happened in the past
08:23 when I've done that.
08:25 I didn't promise to be an easy nut to crack,
08:26 but what happens is
08:27 I get interested in the world around me
08:29 when I leave the bedroom
08:32 and then I'm up all night.
08:33 "Oh, my goodness, look at this.
08:34 There's a book a philosophy that I haven't read yet."
08:37 I bought it six months ago,
08:38 and I'll just thumb through it for a minute
08:40 over here in the living room.
08:41 And next thing, you know, it's 4 o'clock.
08:43 Okay, then we have a very specific place
08:45 that you're allowed to go to
08:46 where it doesn't have a bunch of books.
08:48 Corner, I spent my whole youth there.
08:49 Okay, not the corner. We have to...
08:52 We'll call it something else,
08:54 but you can only go to a very specific place
08:56 that doesn't have all the distractions around it,
09:00 So sign the contract. Yeah. Okay, I'll sign it.
09:01 There's nothing on there.
09:04 We're going to write your treatment plan...
09:06 After I sign it? All right.
09:09 No, that does make sense.
09:11 Where do you go that's not interesting?
09:13 One of the afflictions I have, I think,
09:15 I don't know, if it's an affliction...
09:16 Curiosity. Everything is interesting.
09:18 Everything is interesting.
09:20 Go out... Thank God for a wonderful mind.
09:21 I'll just go out and scan in the backyard.
09:23 Yeah, I'll go out in the backyard,
09:24 I'll clear my thoughts there.
09:25 And my goodness, there's a moth I've never seen before.
09:27 And it's like, "Where does that come from?"
09:29 And I wonder if I google it.
09:31 If we can figure out where that... Everything...
09:33 I think Google and you are like a bad combination.
09:36 It is a bad combination. Yeah, it would be.
09:37 You can't look just one thing up.
09:39 Exactly. But everything's interesting.
09:41 So where do you go that isn't interesting.
09:45 Yeah. Everything is interesting.
09:47 What have you tried in the past to "shut your brain down"?
09:50 Some people rely on anti-anxiety meds...
09:54 Sleep meds, melatonin what have you tried?
09:56 This is probably a bad idea.
09:57 You're going to recoil in horror.
09:59 But one thing...
10:00 I did two things, white noise, number one.
10:02 There's something about white noise
10:03 that helps your brain drift.
10:04 And if I can get my brain to drift.
10:06 For who don't know what that it is.
10:07 What is white noise?
10:08 White noise is like the static on your television.
10:10 Or you can even get white noise apps on your iPhone.
10:12 Yeah, I've got an electric fan on my iPad
10:14 that I just turn on a fan.
10:16 A fan is white noise. Yeah.
10:17 And that somehow gets your brain to drift.
10:19 The other thing I do is
10:20 I stick my iPhone under my pillow
10:22 and I...
10:23 Nowadays with, you know, tune in radio and other apps,
10:25 I can listen to any radio station in the world,
10:27 3ABN, you can list to 3ABN.
10:29 I need somebody to talk.
10:30 In the old days, I used to go down
10:32 and watch the preachers at 2 in the morning on TV
10:35 and turn it really low.
10:36 You know, there's actual sleep aids
10:39 that are recordings of women speaking,
10:41 and they're usually like in a librarian,
10:43 kind of, context.
10:44 And they're speaking in a way
10:46 that you can't really hear what they're saying.
10:47 But only like...
10:48 And just the... That's what I'm looking for.
10:50 And I find that suddenly I'm paying, I'm trying...
10:52 And if I turn it down low enough now
10:53 I have to listen
10:55 and everything else fades into the background
10:57 but that interaction.
10:58 And I don't want to use the word hypnosis
11:01 because I'm not a fan of that whole...
11:03 but there's something about.
11:04 Very objectionable thing about hypnosis is mind control,
11:06 one, mind control, this is not...
11:07 Right. But this is focused. It's calming.
11:09 This is calming. Yeah.
11:10 This is calming. And that helps you?
11:12 Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
11:13 And then you wake up at 2 in the morning
11:14 and change the channel and...
11:17 So I want to go back to your fear though,
11:19 I think, that was really fertile ground.
11:20 And the perfectionism.
11:22 I'm not going to like how that is.
11:23 But I really think that that you would be able to bless,
11:27 I mean, you're blessing thousands
11:29 and maybe millions of people with your ministry,
11:31 and it's awesome.
11:32 But I really think you could bless more people
11:34 if you had a testimony about overcoming perfectionism
11:36 because perfectionism does...
11:38 I mean, you're such a jolly soul,
11:40 you laugh your way through it, and then you admit,
11:42 you know...
11:43 but some people it is their undoing.
11:45 So if we probe a little deeper into the perfectionism...
11:48 Yeah, perfectionism is a word
11:49 that I, probably, squirm with that
11:51 because in a religious context that means something.
11:52 I know. And I don't live in that world.
11:54 I don't live in the world of religious perfectionism.
11:57 But so many people do.
11:59 But the principles and the habits
12:00 carry over for many people
12:01 not maybe you've successfully compartmentalized.
12:03 Oh, I totally have. Yeah. Yeah.
12:05 But, I mean, Shawn the sinless.
12:08 Okay, all right, tell me in a sentence
12:10 what your home of origin, upbringing, training,
12:14 said to you about doing well at things,
12:17 and also what it said about not doing well.
12:21 Immigrant parents.
12:24 I've thought about this, you know, in the wee hours
12:25 when you're laying awake,
12:26 you wonder what's doing this to you.
12:28 And so immigrant parents,
12:30 father who comes at 18 with $45,
12:33 and you got to make it.
12:34 And so there's probably an atmosphere
12:36 of you've got to make it.
12:39 And I feel responsibility for my family.
12:41 So I think I got to make it.
12:45 How am I going to support my wife
12:46 if we retire one day?
12:47 How am I going to...
12:50 I've got to make it was probably a huge part
12:52 of my upbringing and working hard...
12:54 But wait a minute, wait a minute.
12:56 There's a weird association
12:57 because you being perfect in all your tweets
13:00 is not going to have any impact at all.
13:01 No, I know.
13:02 As to whether you can support your family or not.
13:04 A typo wouldn't. Yeah, like...
13:06 The English language is well, I make my living.
13:07 It's an experiment, Shawn.
13:09 I know but you being perfect, it's not going to hurt you,
13:11 you're still going to be able to support your family.
13:12 So I don't accept that. Okay.
13:14 Yeah. Try again.
13:19 Oh, I definitely grew up
13:21 in an atmosphere of, "You got to make it.
13:22 And do you?"
13:24 And probably, you know,
13:25 I grew up Dutch Calvinists background,
13:26 which is a huge work ethic.
13:29 Work is an act of worship,
13:31 you do your very best not because not for ego sake
13:35 or for pride sake
13:36 but because that's how you want to your God,
13:40 that is an element there as well.
13:41 Okay. That's really powerful.
13:43 So there's a link. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
13:44 Oh, yeah.
13:46 This is how you get one lifetime
13:48 and your life is a testimony to God's goodness.
13:52 That would have to be subconscious if I'm doing that
13:54 because I don't start out my day thinking...
13:58 Well, obviously, something that's driving this
13:59 is subconscious.
14:01 You're not choosing to not be able to sleep.
14:04 I do think there's something significant going on
14:05 and, like, Jen mentioned anxiety
14:08 and I know you don't really like that word.
14:10 But if you think of it as when a person's under pressure
14:14 or has fear,
14:16 they tend to go to one or the other end of a spectrum.
14:20 So if their tendency is when they're overwhelmed
14:22 or under pressure to become depressed,
14:25 then it's, kind of, like if you were in a car
14:28 and you're experiencing pressure
14:30 or intensity of some kind,
14:32 the depressed person calls in the backseat
14:34 and covers themselves with a gray blanket
14:36 and huddles there
14:37 because they're overwhelmed, they can't fix it.
14:41 I tend to be, "Give me the wheel."
14:42 The opposite...
14:43 Exactly, the opposite reaction is, "I think I've got this."
14:47 And you tighten your grip on the wheel...
14:48 Yep. And you take over.
14:50 And that's exactly what I think
14:52 is driving what's going on here.
14:53 There is no question about that.
14:55 But there are things
14:56 that you're able to put yourself
14:57 in the passenger seat and relax on.
15:00 So the question is why is it
15:02 that what happens before you go to sleep
15:04 is in the driver's seat,
15:06 clutching the steering wheel category?
15:08 And how could you move it
15:09 to being able to be in the passenger seat?
15:11 Good question. Is there some avoidance?
15:13 What would happen if you didn't do your best?
15:16 Put it in a sentence right from your gut
15:18 through your upbringing.
15:19 Really simple. I would know I didn't do my best.
15:21 What would happen if you knew?
15:25 That... Only that mean about you.
15:28 I actually derive joy from knowing I did my best
15:30 and not doing my best would be...
15:32 You are tough. I know.
15:34 I know, but I'm being honest. I'm trying to be transparent.
15:37 And the reason I've objected to the word anxiety
15:39 is I don't want people to think there's a cold sweat
15:41 or that there's a, there's not, it's just an active...
15:43 You don't have the symptomatology
15:44 of the normal anxiety features.
15:46 No, I don't have panic attacks, I don't have cold sweats,
15:48 I don't get the knot in my stomach.
15:52 Maybe once in a blue moon,
15:53 who doesn't once in a blue moon?
15:55 It's I can't turn it off. It's active.
15:57 It's racing thought. It's racing thought.
16:00 I think there's some DNA here.
16:01 I don't think it's all you being, you know,
16:04 damaged from childhood or anything like that.
16:05 I think... Yeah, it seems like you...
16:06 No, I had a really good childhood.
16:08 Let me just say.
16:09 Mom and Dad watched 3ABN, and it was really great.
16:10 3ABN? Seriously?
16:12 No, no, I had a good childhood.
16:13 Did you? Yeah, sure. I did.
16:15 Yeah. You were happy? Oh, yeah.
16:16 Well adjusted.
16:17 I don't know, you know me, well adjusted am I?
16:20 You have children? Yeah, I do.
16:22 How does this impact your parenting
16:24 and your relationship with them?
16:26 That's a really good question.
16:27 Well, I tend to demand quite a bit.
16:33 Our motto in our house is work first, play later.
16:35 I'm thinking, I could have actually verbalize that,
16:38 but I wanted to ask
16:39 because I want to make sure you are aware
16:42 that they're making some transference
16:44 between how you expect from you.
16:46 I actually think about that a lot.
16:47 And what do you think when you think about that?
16:49 I try to back off a bit. I try to say, "It's okay."
16:51 Now the other component there is, of course,
16:54 my kids have grown up in a fishbowl.
16:56 So I've deliberately try to not...
16:59 You know, on something's I demand things,
17:00 "You know what?
17:02 You didn't need to get that grade."
17:03 Yeah. You know?
17:05 "You didn't need to get that grade,
17:06 you can do better."
17:07 So you give them permission for a few typos.
17:09 Oh, yeah. Good.
17:10 My kids mess up far less than I do.
17:14 I do give permission for that and...
17:15 You have two daughters, right? Two daughters. Yeah.
17:16 And that's it.
17:18 That's right. Okay.
17:19 And so I'm aware
17:21 of every young man in the country.
17:22 Have they ever said to you, "You know, Dad..."
17:25 I'm aware of every young man
17:26 in the continental United States.
17:27 I know where they are.
17:29 Modified your views on gun control.
17:31 So they ever told you, "You know, Dad,
17:34 can't you just let go or we just feel like
17:36 we're going to make a mistake, and we're so worried"
17:38 or have they conveyed any of that to you?
17:40 Once in a while.
17:41 Once in a while,
17:43 not very often, and I'm quite willing...
17:46 I'm quite willing to take it if it's sincere
17:50 and I'm not willing to take it as an excuse.
17:52 So if a child says,
17:53 "Well, maybe that's all I'm capable of."
17:55 Yeah, you're like... No, not a chance.
17:57 You know, do I demand a road scholar?
18:01 No, no, I don't.
18:03 But I am cognizant of the fact that if I'm highly driven
18:07 that I might expect that if people who aren't
18:10 and put too much pressure on them,
18:12 I do think about that.
18:13 Has the drivenness ever challenged bonding
18:17 because there's kind of a tension
18:20 between relationship and task orientation.
18:23 People tend to be on a spectrum somewhere
18:25 so they may be very task achievement oriented
18:27 or some people may be more relationally oriented
18:30 but sometimes those things come to sorts points,
18:31 so have you ever noticed in your relationship,
18:33 for instance, with your kids
18:35 that the drivenness factor of your whole family
18:37 because you're all like high achievers.
18:38 Yeah, we're all four. Yeah.
18:39 So has that ever got in the way of bonding?
18:41 No, we're really close. Are you?
18:43 I have to say, and I thank God for that every day, and I am...
18:48 You know, do we ever have moments of tension?
18:50 I got teenage kids. Sure we do.
18:52 It's like, "Don't give me that."
18:53 It's normal. "Don't give me that."
18:55 You know, that's fine. Don't give who what?
18:56 Don't give me that excuse or like give me...
18:58 You say that to your daughters. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
19:02 But I... we're close. We're close.
19:05 You know, and I grew up...
19:07 Well, I had a good family growing up, but we weren't...
19:10 I wouldn't describe us as close as my family is now.
19:14 And so I'm still daddy and that I enjoyed that moment,
19:18 by the way, Jean got demoted to mom,
19:21 and I'm still daddy, but...
19:23 What do you mean she got demoted?
19:25 Mommy versus mom. Dad versus daddy.
19:26 Oh, sort of mommy, mommy, mommy, and she became mom,
19:27 and I'm still daddy.
19:29 How do you find time for family and relationship?
19:32 It's not easy. It's true.
19:34 Our life has been a typical.
19:36 And that in our children's youngest years
19:40 we were on the road 220, 230 days a year.
19:43 With the whole family. Sometimes.
19:45 And then we decided
19:47 that takes too much of a toll on our children
19:49 at different time zone every other day
19:51 and they're little,
19:52 and so then it was me on the road quite a bit,
19:55 you know, because we had to balance,
19:57 you know, how much time do we take together
19:59 and how much is this actually damaging,
20:00 you know, they don't have a life,
20:02 they don't have friends, they don't have...
20:03 And that wasn't easy. Yeah, yeah.
20:05 But are we close? Yeah.
20:06 My daughter called me last night,
20:08 "Hey, Dad, I'm thinking about this at college,
20:09 what do you think?"
20:11 This happens all the time. We've been very open.
20:13 We talk about everything. We talk about...
20:15 We talk about everything. Everything.
20:17 We talk about everything.
20:18 And my kids are far more open
20:20 than I would have been as a child,
20:21 you know, the Dutch and the German
20:23 don't talk about certain things.
20:24 They're not talkers.
20:26 Yeah, they don't share emotions and things.
20:27 No, I don't share emotions.
20:28 You don't? I have to now.
20:30 You've been sharing emotions for the last hour, Shawn.
20:31 Yeah, I know, I know but... Yeah.
20:32 That gratitude of attitude.
20:34 Yes. Yeah. Very good.
20:35 I get a gold star for being emotional.
20:37 You do get a gold star.
20:38 You took courage to stand before this tribunal.
20:43 But we're not done with you yet.
20:44 We have a few more minutes so...
20:45 I want to take Jen's question
20:47 that she's asked you like three times.
20:48 And I've avoided.
20:49 Yeah. Okay.
20:51 So we're just going to try and say it one more time.
20:53 If you weren't ready or you didn't quite make it
20:57 'cause you said your internal drivenness is,
21:00 "I got to make it."
21:04 If you didn't, what would happen?
21:08 I would know and that's the bottom line.
21:09 That's it. I would know.
21:11 You over and over again appear as your own taskmaster,
21:16 I'm not going to say tyrant, but taskmaster.
21:17 I don't need somebody to drive me.
21:19 I never have. Yeah. Yeah.
21:20 I never have.
21:22 You would know that you didn't make it, but...
21:24 And then what? And what would happen?
21:27 What would be so bad? I would know.
21:29 I think that's it. That's the bottom line.
21:30 Could you accept yourself if you didn't do your best?
21:34 I don't know.
21:36 It would be worth experimenting with.
21:37 Would your wife and your girls still love you?
21:39 Oh, yeah. Oh, I hope so.
21:41 Would Jesus still love you? Oh, of course.
21:43 Isn't that the gospel? It is.
21:46 Would Shawn still loves Shawn?
21:48 Oh, yeah. Okay.
21:50 Oh, yeah. That's not...
21:51 I don't know how much I love myself.
21:54 I don't know how much I love myself.
21:55 But you would still respect yourself even if you...
21:57 Oh, yeah. I don't think that's...
21:58 'Cause I've messed up colossally on occasion,
22:00 and it's...
22:02 I can roll with that.
22:03 Can you tell us about a time you messed up?
22:07 There's not that many come to think.
22:10 Oh, yeah. I have gone in think...
22:13 I have gone in say for a presentation
22:16 where I thought, "I can wing that."
22:18 And at the end, I knew, A, I didn't wing it,
22:22 B, it didn't obtain the desired effect from that room.
22:25 What do you mean you didn't wing it?
22:27 I didn't wing it like I didn't successfully wing it.
22:29 I really didn't wing it. We got a C versus an A.
22:32 You bet. You bet.
22:33 Where I walked in and I thought,
22:34 "I'm going to convince that board no problem,
22:36 I've done this a 100 times before."
22:37 And bam, it fell apart on me and then I wished,
22:42 "Oh, I should have spent a little time on that."
22:46 Yeah, one of the...
22:48 You know, there is a level of if I get a phone call,
22:50 "Hey, can you come and speak?"
22:52 My first thought is,
22:53 "Boy, do I have time to get ready for that?"
22:55 Really? Always.
22:56 You're really, really into being prepared?
23:00 Very important to note. Yes.
23:01 Because it looks natural if you're prepared.
23:03 Yeah. That's right.
23:04 It's a blessing and a curse thing.
23:06 It's just finding that balance point.
23:08 I mean, perfectionism can be a curse,
23:12 but with balance,
23:13 and I think what Jen is just trying to propose
23:15 and we're all trying to propose is
23:17 would you take the suggestion of doing the experiment
23:22 of just practicing with some intentional downtime
23:27 or intentional typos, however, they look for you,
23:30 they don't have to be on Twitter.
23:32 I'll be watching Twitter. Okay.
23:33 Oh, we're not gonna be doing typos.
23:35 I mean, like, whatever that looks like
23:37 even if it's just with when you guys have family night
23:41 just permission for being human.
23:45 I mean, because that's I think
23:46 our message we're wanting to get out there
23:47 is we're really all just human
23:50 trying to get ready for Jesus to return, right?
23:53 Yeah, absolutely. I don't mind being human.
23:56 Yeah, it's not that he's not human.
23:57 He's very human.
23:59 It's the doing the best he can do in usually tasks
24:03 that have to do with communication.
24:05 Here's another little piece of it.
24:06 And maybe we're out of time, but I don't know.
24:07 But I'm an off the charts introvert by nature,
24:10 and I live in an extroverted world,
24:12 and I live in an extroverted career.
24:15 And so for me to walk out in front of 2,000 people
24:18 and speak takes everything I've got to...
24:21 So there's an element there in the type of preparation
24:24 is that for me to do that's completely unnatural.
24:27 I'm terrified of public speaking.
24:28 So you overcompensate with your preparation.
24:30 Oh, yeah. This is it.
24:32 This is why the pop ups are so big at night.
24:36 'Cause it's your subconscious is sorting things out
24:40 and putting things in files.
24:42 It's what you do as an introvert.
24:44 Yeah. Well, I'm off the charts.
24:46 I'm shy, I don't like social gatherings,
24:49 I can't stand potluck
24:50 because it's, you know, it's like...
24:52 But let me quickly insert this
24:54 and that is as Shawn told me off the camera
24:57 that at the end of all of his lectures,
25:00 he stays until the last person has been ministered
25:04 to which I want to give you not 10 but 20 stars for that
25:07 because so many public speakers,
25:09 they finish their job, they walk off,
25:11 and they won't associate.
25:13 It's almost like they think they're on another level.
25:14 But you come and you minister to people,
25:16 and you will not leave, you said, until...
25:18 I mean, there are some exceptions.
25:20 Sometimes I do because the introverted in me
25:21 gets exhausted.
25:23 Some nights I go, "I've had enough,
25:24 I'm going to go."
25:25 But barring exhaustion. Yeah. Yeah, I do it.
25:27 But I don't get up front because I enjoy it,
25:28 I don't enjoy it.
25:30 I get up front because those people
25:31 are in the same boat I was once in
25:33 and they need some help.
25:34 And I remember when you first came on the scene
25:36 you were Henry Feyer Robbins understudy?
25:39 Yeah. Is that the right word?
25:41 Henry? I suppose so.
25:42 And you were, kind of, working with him from Canada.
25:45 And then you took over, it is written initially,
25:47 and I remember that
25:48 and I remember when you first started speaking
25:50 at campaign meetings so friend of mine called me
25:51 and said, "This new guy Shawn Boonstra
25:53 is a really good speaker, and he's really friendly.
25:55 He talks to people afterward,
25:57 and he's just really like cordial and affable and..."
26:00 because that meant a lot to us
26:02 because we want to know that the people...
26:03 You know, we're all women,
26:05 and we tend not to get the spots up there
26:06 tends to be men,
26:08 and we want to know those men are the caring,
26:10 people that are willing to come down to our level
26:12 so to speak.
26:14 So that I just want to say that means a lot to me
26:15 that you do that way.
26:16 I'm glad it's blessing people always.
26:18 And you've always been very friendly to me personally,
26:19 I've never felt like he thinks he's just all that
26:21 and just untouchable.
26:22 I know I'm not all that.
26:25 Shawn, you mentioned a couple things
26:26 that work for you.
26:29 For the chronic struggler of insomnia out there
26:31 that maybe travels...
26:33 I mean, you travel times up.
26:34 Oh, yeah. So you don't just travel.
26:36 What works the best for you in those situations?
26:38 In about one minute or less?
26:39 White noise, something to distract me.
26:42 I need something to distract me.
26:43 And if it's visual, if it's reading, forget it,
26:45 I'm going to get engaged, it's got to be audible,
26:47 lights out, radio, talk radio,
26:50 and the more boring...
26:51 The better. The better.
26:53 And how do you feel about when people write you
26:54 with remedies and different treatments
26:56 for insomnia when you admit your health problems?
26:58 Sometimes I laugh about it. Yeah.
26:59 Please don't write. Yes, I tried that.
27:02 Because you tried everything.
27:04 You've tried melatonin, you've tried valerian,
27:05 you've tried...
27:07 You've really gone...
27:08 I've done a sleep clinic, they just told me,
27:09 "Boy, you really don't sleep."
27:11 Thanks. Oh, thanks. Hopeless.
27:15 No, I tried it all the valerian, the melatonin.
27:17 Melatonin gives you nightmares.
27:18 Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah.
27:20 Not me. Oh, really?
27:21 Yeah. That's unique to you.
27:23 But you've tried, you think, just about everything,
27:27 and you appreciate the thought
27:28 but don't bother is that what you want to say to people.
27:30 Yeah, please don't. Please don't.
27:32 All right, we are so grateful
27:35 that you've joined us for this amazing program
27:37 on about the man who almost never slept.
27:40 He's getting a whopping three to four hours every night
27:42 these days.
27:44 And we're so thankful for that because it used to be worse.
27:46 But we've really plumbed the depths
27:48 of Shawn Boonstra psyche, and it's been a wild ride.
27:52 Thank you for joining us and may you be blessed
27:54 and may you sleep well tonight
27:55 because He gives His beloved sleep.