Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170034A
00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 We're so thankful that you joined us today
00:30 for our program.
00:32 This is the second half of our program
00:34 with Mike Tucker.
00:36 It's called "My Grief Observed."
00:38 And what we're covering in this program
00:40 is obviously grief.
00:42 But also there's a second chapter
00:44 to Michael's story of losing his wife of 40 years.
00:48 And he knows more about the exact amount of time.
00:52 Just not too long ago because Mike has remarried,
00:54 and we're going to be covering that
00:55 in this second half.
00:57 But I want to introduce my illustrious panel here.
00:59 We've got Rob Davidson from Maryland.
01:02 He's a professional counselor.
01:03 We've got Nicole Parker,
01:05 a biblical counselor from Tennessee.
01:08 Paul Coneff, your name escaped me for a moment,
01:10 marriage and family therapist from Texas,
01:13 and author and speaker as well, as is Nicole Parker.
01:17 And Mike Tucker, who is the director
01:20 and principal speaker of Faith for Today,
01:23 and the flagship program of Faith for Today
01:26 is Christian Lifestyle Magazine.
01:28 Actually Lifestyle Magazine.
01:29 It started off about 35 years ago
01:30 as Christian Lifestyle Magazine,
01:32 and then they shorten the name
01:33 just Lifestyle Magazine,
01:35 'cause it's targeting non Christians.
01:36 You're also an author,
01:37 and I just want to kind of draw attention
01:39 to this lovely book that you've just written
01:41 called "Tears to Joy, One Man's Journey through Grief"
01:44 by Mike Tucker, Pacific Press.
01:47 And so tell us, unfold to us a little bit more
01:51 what was going on
01:52 as you went through this grieving process.
01:54 And the beautiful thing about your story is that
01:56 there was such a strong relationship there
01:57 to begin with so.
01:59 As I said in the first half, the deeper the love,
02:02 the more intense the grief, how did you get through it?
02:04 We grieve greatly because we have loved greatly.
02:07 It is the price we pay for having experienced love.
02:10 And it was the most terrifying
02:13 and horrific moments of my life,
02:16 and experience of my life is moving through that
02:19 because she had been my intimate partner.
02:22 And by intimacy, we're talking about shared emotions,
02:25 it's shared life, shared ministry,
02:27 shared experience over 40 years with this woman,
02:31 and we had a delightful marriage.
02:33 And so, to suddenly be alone
02:36 when you're used to going to churches as a couple
02:39 and you find yourself either go, traveling alone
02:42 and speaking alone or doing a seminar alone
02:46 or you find yourself attending church alone,
02:50 it is something wrong with it, family gatherings alone.
02:54 You know, I'd never done that. I'd never done that.
02:57 Did you ever have an experience
02:58 where you just wanted to share something and then...
03:01 Yeah, oh, yeah.
03:02 You think I'm going to call her.
03:04 Well, no, you can't call her,
03:06 I'm going to tell her when I get home,
03:08 and she won't be there.
03:09 Yeah. So yeah, all of that.
03:11 And you go through the typical stuff,
03:12 you know, with the sadness, the feelings of depression,
03:17 the listlessness, the loss of interest
03:19 in things you used to do, you don't want to do anymore,
03:22 the loss of energy,
03:24 the weeping at unexpected times,
03:25 and at expected times, and things of that nature.
03:28 All of those symptoms,
03:30 all of those things are part of it,
03:31 and I agree with your assessment
03:33 of Kubler-Ross,
03:34 even though I think some of her material is great.
03:36 The truth is, you can't just say
03:38 this is what you're going first and then second,
03:40 I never experienced anger, I never had denial.
03:44 And if there was any denial, it was certainly momentary
03:47 because I lived with the reality of her loss,
03:50 so I never denied it.
03:51 Didn't you have a thanks a lot God moment
03:54 that you're telling us about?
03:55 Can you tell us that story?
03:57 This is the moment when I realized
03:58 that I didn't want to live the rest of my life this way.
04:00 I was about six and a half, seven months into this
04:02 when I was doing evangelism for Frank Gonzalez,
04:05 who is a pastor in Florida,
04:06 used to be speaker for La Voz De Esperanza,
04:09 and I had agreed to do this several years beforehand.
04:11 And I thought I can use one of the series
04:13 that I've done on Hope channel
04:15 because I've done some evangelism there.
04:17 And, but, two months away,
04:18 he called me said, "Oh, good news,
04:19 Hope channel's going to broadcast us."
04:21 I said, "That's good news for you, but not me.
04:23 I don't have anything, I haven't done on Hope channel,
04:25 I did no material.
04:26 And the problem was that after Gayle's death,
04:28 for quite a while, I couldn't write.
04:30 I sit in front of a blank computer screen,
04:32 I could not write about anything but the loss.
04:35 I could write plenty about that but nothing else.
04:37 So I needed new material, and I couldn't write,
04:40 so I just studied and prayed.
04:42 And then when it came time for the shows,
04:43 I was supposed to shoot
04:45 two sermons a night for six nights,
04:47 so you have 12 new sermons,
04:49 and sometimes as close to shoot time is 20 minutes,
04:53 I would finally get an outline
04:55 formulated in my mind and I preached 12 new sermons
04:58 in six nights, and you have to do them to time
05:01 which is a very, very, very difficult thing to do,
05:04 especially preaching without notes.
05:07 And I missed my times
05:08 by no worse than two seconds per sermon.
05:10 Most of them were either right on
05:12 or one second off, one sermon was two seconds off.
05:16 No one does that. No one does that.
05:17 No one does that. So it was a major triumph.
05:19 This is a major triumph and is purely God moment
05:22 because God has done something for me
05:23 I'm not capable of doing on my own.
05:25 And I'm just so high after this experience,
05:28 I want to call and I realized
05:30 I had absolutely no one to call to share this with
05:34 who would truly appreciate that moment.
05:36 And then you went back to your hotel room?
05:38 Yeah. And?
05:40 And I turn on the TV just to kind of detox,
05:43 get over my sadness of having no one to call.
05:45 And it opened up the Hope channel,
05:47 and Lifestyle Magazine was being played, a rerun,
05:50 and Gayle was interviewing a cancer survivor.
05:53 Seriously, God, this is what you give me now?
05:55 I just sat down in my bed and cried.
05:57 But it was at that moment as I was processing all that
06:00 I realized, this,
06:02 if God is going to bless me like this.
06:04 I can't live this way.
06:06 I've got to have someone to share this experience with,
06:08 to share my joy as well as the sorrows of life,
06:11 it's not just about being lonely.
06:13 You can live with loneliness, but I couldn't.
06:15 I did not want to live without a shared experience,
06:19 a shared ministry, and shared joy.
06:20 Mike, you came to that experience.
06:22 Did you say this was seven months
06:23 after your wife had died?
06:26 So in the meantime,
06:27 what were you doing for these seven months?
06:29 Were you just staying so busy
06:30 that you didn't have time to grieve?
06:31 I became very intentional about my grief.
06:34 I made sure that I wrote about it,
06:35 I cried about it when I felt that was necessary.
06:37 I talked about it as often as I had opportunity.
06:40 Were there people you could talk to?
06:42 Yes, yes, there were.
06:43 And then I would talk about it publicly,
06:46 in my sermons at times.
06:47 People wanted to know, and I told the story.
06:49 Could you hold or did you fall apart emotionally?
06:52 My voice would crack, but God gave me strength,
06:54 and I got through it
06:55 because I've been so intentional.
06:57 The other thing that I did is
06:58 I tried to anticipate the moments
07:00 that would be hardest for me,
07:02 and I did what I call leaning into the pain.
07:06 I would do those things earlier than I needed to
07:08 such as preaching.
07:10 I started preaching two months after her death,
07:12 in fact within two months.
07:14 And that was tough.
07:15 I did a Mad About Marriage seminar
07:17 before I needed to
07:18 because my staff had canceled my schedule,
07:20 so I reengaged one, they were ready for me.
07:23 And I did a seminar about four months after her death.
07:26 Your first one alone. First one alone.
07:28 I did that intentionally
07:30 because I wanted to reclaim things.
07:31 I took two vacations to spots we used to go to together,
07:35 and I cried through the whole experience,
07:36 but when I did it, I knew those remind again.
07:39 If I wanted to go back, now I could do that.
07:41 So I was intentional about it. Good.
07:43 There are two things that are crucial
07:46 when I'm sitting with somebody who is grieving.
07:48 One is, don't ignore the pain.
07:50 And it sounds like you did not ignore.
07:53 The other is don't stay in the pain all of the time.
07:56 But have the support around you and do life
08:00 as you need to do life, so that that's a distraction.
08:03 But come back to the pain when the pain comes back.
08:06 And this is just a process that we have to go through
08:08 for who knows how long
08:10 because grieving is not as you know,
08:12 it's not a set time.
08:13 No, you grieve, in some ways, the rest of your life.
08:16 You never quit grieving in some sense.
08:18 I do believe that I came to a point of enough recovery
08:21 that I was able to make decisions
08:23 and move on with my life.
08:24 But that's a tricky thing to know how to do that
08:27 and to know when that time is right.
08:29 How did you know?
08:31 I felt that I was able to make clear decisions
08:33 without asking advice.
08:35 I knew that my emotions were such that
08:37 I could talk about the loss
08:39 without tremendously breaking up at that point.
08:43 My memories were all pleasant,
08:45 and I had a desire to move forward.
08:48 I have a gift of life.
08:50 I don't want to live in just a memory.
08:51 I never want to forget.
08:53 But I wanted to be more than that.
08:54 And when I realized that,
08:56 that it was not about filling a void,
08:57 but sharing my life with someone,
08:59 and sharing my life in a positive way,
09:03 then, all right, I felt like now's a good time.
09:05 This is a positive thing.
09:07 You know, I was just curious, Mike, with...
09:10 Jesus was a man of grief and sorrows.
09:12 He knows a lot about loss, a lot about pain,
09:14 a lot about suffering.
09:16 And He went through that so He could identify with us,
09:18 so He could minister to us.
09:19 And I'm just wondering, how did Jesus minister to you
09:21 in a special, personal way?
09:23 Everybody's story is different, but I'm just curious
09:25 for those who are watching, and for your own story,
09:28 how did He ministered to you
09:29 in a personal way during this time?
09:31 You know, I think that the fact
09:32 that I had been living with Jesus
09:35 for a vast majority of my life,
09:38 meant that there was indeed
09:40 a relationship of intimacy there.
09:42 And it was just going back
09:43 and remembering those intimate times with Him,
09:45 and times that I shared with my wife with Him
09:47 that were precious to me.
09:49 And the realization of His benefits,
09:52 so as I celebrated what He has done to my life,
09:55 what He has given me,
09:56 it gave me comfort and hope for that moment.
09:59 And then every sorrow,
10:00 every tear, it was taken to Him.
10:02 I just didn't hold anything back.
10:04 Every cry, every,
10:06 and, of course, remembering scripture,
10:08 I wasn't able to read a whole lot at that point.
10:10 You know, if you read,
10:11 read positive light stuff is what I say.
10:14 So I avoided a lot of doctrinal study,
10:17 it was just Jesus at that point,
10:19 the gospels and psalms basically.
10:21 And even then in short bits.
10:23 And that helped me more than anything else,
10:25 just dwelling in the fact that He's always been here,
10:29 remembering that, remembering those times
10:31 that's special to us together,
10:32 sharing with Him my current sorrow,
10:34 and realizing that even when I couldn't feel it,
10:36 He was lifting me up.
10:38 And so it was a positive experience for me overall.
10:41 I think the brain like can't even engage
10:44 in real high order reasoning
10:46 when you're in an emotional state like that.
10:49 Loss of judgment, the ability to think logically,
10:51 one of the first symptoms of grief.
10:53 Really? Yeah.
10:54 And Jesus Himself went through that
10:56 'cause I think that's why when He was on the cross,
10:58 He said, "Why have You forsaken Me?"
11:00 He could have given a Bible study
11:02 on how God was with Him,
11:03 and it was the plan of salvation,
11:04 but He was just talking
11:06 out of His experience in that moment.
11:07 And I think it really literally derailed His cerebral cortex,
11:10 where He couldn't reach through.
11:12 Well, the loss experience for me did that.
11:15 I mean, you know, you realize...
11:17 I didn't make any major decisions
11:18 unless I asked someone.
11:20 So here's what I'm thinking,
11:21 here's what I'm thinking about doing.
11:23 What do you think?
11:24 Does this make sense, or should I just wait?
11:26 I need to do this with this money.
11:28 I've got... Should I pay this off?
11:29 What should I do?
11:31 Because, you know, you get insurance money,
11:32 and everything else.
11:34 And so you think, all right,
11:35 what's the best plan for this money?
11:36 So I talked to people about it.
11:38 People who were not grieving, whose opinion I trusted.
11:39 I've told people to do that for years.
11:41 So I took my own advice.
11:42 So you become kind of a puddle of emotion?
11:44 Oh, yeah.
11:46 And I just wondered just God go through that
11:47 on some level obviously,
11:49 He can never stop being the manager of the universe
11:51 and making all kinds of executive decisions.
11:53 But I wonder if He...
11:55 Yes, He's hurt with us. Yeah.
11:56 This is, you know, He's says, He weeps,
11:59 and I believe He does.
12:01 I wrote a book,
12:02 my first book was entitled "Journal of a Lonely God."
12:04 And I looked at the story of Genesis from the standpoint
12:07 of God longing for intimacy with man
12:09 as He worked with these dysfunctional people.
12:13 And I think it's kind of...
12:14 It can be viewed that way
12:15 as His journal, He was lonely, He longed for us.
12:17 There's a beautiful song that...
12:19 It's entitled
12:20 Tears Are Language That God Understand.
12:23 When my mother died, I would listen to that
12:24 over and over again to let the tears flow.
12:27 And there's something about the tears
12:30 that God has given us
12:31 because the chemicals in tears are actually toxic.
12:35 And when the tears flow,
12:37 where actually the body's going through a healing process,
12:40 the chemicals in joyful tears
12:42 are actually a different composition.
12:43 That's something.
12:45 And so if you hold in the sad tears,
12:46 it's going to toxify your body, is that what you're saying?
12:49 Yes. Wow.
12:50 Move towards the pain.
12:52 Which is one of the reasons why your body's immune system
12:53 functions less than optimum during grief.
12:56 You're more susceptible to flus, cold,
12:58 that sort of thing.
12:59 There's a lot of studies that show that.
13:00 And you need to be extra careful
13:02 and engage in extra self care during that period.
13:03 Exactly, exactly. You might get some rest.
13:06 I remember my husband and I dealt with
13:07 a very tragic situation early in our marriage,
13:10 where two of our friends got married
13:12 six months after we did, and a week after the wedding,
13:16 she was killed in a car accident.
13:18 It was very, very painful all the way around.
13:22 And we were some of the first people
13:24 to get to the hotel room
13:25 to meet with him after she had died.
13:28 And I remember him telling me a week later,
13:30 two weeks after their wedding,
13:31 we were having her funeral in the same church.
13:34 And I remember him telling me around then, he said,
13:36 "Nicole, I can't sing the hymns right now.
13:39 But listening to them,
13:41 the words mean so much to me."
13:42 And I think there's a special experience
13:44 of closeness with the heart of God
13:46 that comes through grieving
13:48 and allowing God to be there with us.
13:51 Some people are frightened because they feel like
13:53 there's a temporary loss of faith.
13:55 And that is one of the symptoms of grief.
13:57 That's a normal experience for a lot of people,
13:59 mainly because you've taken such a blow to the brain.
14:01 This is a brain injury as much as anything else.
14:05 But also one of the chief sources
14:07 of information about God,
14:08 about His love and concern for you
14:10 just died with this person.
14:11 So that voice has been silenced.
14:13 And all of a sudden, it feels like God is silenced.
14:16 And it takes a while for you to find a new voice
14:20 just to give you the same messages.
14:22 Because our close relationships are one of His books
14:25 really is the place we learn about Him.
14:26 Yes, exactly.
14:28 He ministered to me through ways
14:30 that I'll never fully be able to understand
14:32 through my marriage to Gayle.
14:34 And that was a blessing for me.
14:35 And I knew I didn't want to live without that.
14:37 So what happened? So what happened?
14:40 About seven, eight months in
14:42 when I realized that I didn't work?
14:43 I knew... Did you get any offers?
14:45 Oh, yes, I had marriage...
14:46 You know I did, I should have told you that.
14:50 I had marriage proposals from Twitter
14:52 from women I didn't know, and it goes on and on.
14:56 It was frightening to me, quite frankly.
14:58 But that's another story in itself.
15:00 Will have to have you back and explore that.
15:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want to do that.
15:05 But I knew I at least needed a friend,
15:09 someone to talk to
15:10 because I really didn't have that.
15:12 I've been on the road so much that any friendships that I had
15:15 were really kind of distance at this point.
15:17 And so I just needed someone to talk to.
15:19 Well, men are notoriously bad at that.
15:21 I'm sorry, but you guys are, I too.
15:24 Women are good at it,
15:25 but if she's married, that's awkward.
15:26 That's not right. Yeah, you can't do that.
15:28 So it needed to be a single woman,
15:29 but that still has its own dangers.
15:31 Yeah, exactly.
15:32 So I chose someone
15:33 who lived a long way away from me
15:35 in another country,
15:36 because I knew that would be safe.
15:37 Well, she was a Canadian, and it still is a Canadian.
15:40 And so I asked her if she would at least be willing
15:42 to be kind of an online presence for me.
15:44 She said she would
15:45 because she was traveling a lot as well,
15:47 and she felt alone. So we just started talking.
15:49 I didn't process my grief,
15:51 it was a renewing of a friendship
15:53 that I had made, Gayle and I had made
15:55 one year on a camp meeting tour.
15:58 And we had met her there,
15:59 she at the time was the director
16:01 for Quiet Our Canada,
16:03 and was indeed a preaching material
16:05 because she found she had to preach
16:06 and wasn't trained to be a preacher.
16:08 She liked my theology, I shared sermons with her.
16:10 So we had some discussions back and forth
16:11 about preaching and theology and that sort of thing.
16:14 And so we just started sharing our lives with each other,
16:16 just to talk about, you know,
16:18 and when something exciting happened for me,
16:20 I at least had someone to tell.
16:21 Someone to tell. Someone to tell.
16:22 Well, as the months passed, I realized that
16:25 this was more than just a friendship to me.
16:26 And it's all writing at this point.
16:29 All writing that we hadn't seen each other in years.
16:31 Really? Yeah.
16:33 Did you check Facebook for pictures?
16:34 Of course, of course, we both,
16:37 we've friended each other on Facebook.
16:39 And so in fact, most of our conversation
16:43 came through Facebook, the Messenger portion
16:46 because calling Canada is expensive,
16:48 you know, so that was a quick, easy way to do this,
16:52 and to have basically a chat with each other.
16:54 So we would go back and forth.
16:55 And one night, I realized that I talked to her
16:57 for more than two hours.
17:00 Wow. You know, what's going on here.
17:03 I was at a convention and was eating at a restaurant
17:08 about a mile away from my motel.
17:12 And I started walking back, I'd walk there again,
17:14 that's what I do, and I got a message from her
17:17 and I realized I wanted to answer,
17:20 and I had 2% left on my battery.
17:22 I ran all the way back crossing eight lanes of busy traffic
17:26 to get to my room to type,
17:28 and I realized what did I just do?
17:30 What happened to me?
17:32 And I realized that something was going on inside of me.
17:34 Oh, wow, almost got run over.
17:36 And so I had to take a break to figure out,
17:38 is this just a relief from grief,
17:39 or is this something of its own?
17:40 And I realized it was something of its own.
17:43 And so eventually, her name was Pam Lister.
17:48 Eventually when it was appropriate,
17:49 I said, "Would you ever be interested
17:51 in taking our friendship to the next level?"
17:53 She didn't answer me for 24 hours.
17:54 Okay, would you call that courting or dating?
18:00 I don't know what it is. I don't have a term for it.
18:02 Just next level relationship.
18:03 Yeah, so she wrote back after 24 hours
18:07 because she had to think on this.
18:08 Went dark on you for 24...
18:09 What was that 24 hours like for you?
18:11 It was scared me to death.
18:12 I said, "Well, I've blown this,"
18:14 you know, obviously I went out of this business way too long.
18:16 So she wrote back and said,
18:18 "Yeah, I'd be interested in that."
18:19 And then I realized that I didn't know what that meant.
18:21 So I wrote back is that,
18:22 "I don't know what that means today.
18:24 It's been over 40 years since I dated anyone
18:25 other than my wife.
18:27 So I want you to know that I'm not talking about
18:29 sending you my class jacket,
18:30 my class ring and going steady."
18:32 And she wrote back, "Lol, I understand it, all right,
18:35 we're talking about dating with an eye to marriage."
18:37 I said, "Great, All right so we have..."
18:38 Dating with an eye to marriage?
18:40 An eye to marriage.
18:41 She puts this in an interesting way.
18:43 Pam has a great sense of humor.
18:44 She says, when you're in your 20s,
18:45 you can date for 5, 6, 7 years
18:47 without declaring your intentions.
18:49 When you're in your 30s, two years,
18:50 you need to declare intention, 40, 6 months.
18:54 She says, I'm 50s, and 50s, it's a cup of coffee.
18:59 You know, I'd be that quick.
19:00 If you can't sit across the table
19:02 and realize you can't stand the sound of his breathing,
19:04 it's time to end this,
19:05 and to move on to something else.
19:08 And so, and again, that's sort of
19:09 humorous way of putting it.`
19:11 At our age, we both knew what we wanted.
19:14 This wasn't about tasting and saying,
19:16 "Well, you know, what's over here?
19:17 Who's this person like?" I know what I wanted.
19:19 You wanted a companion. Exactly.
19:21 Yeah. And she wanted the same thing.
19:23 And so when we began to talk about values,
19:25 and dreams, and hopes, and theology,
19:28 and faith, and aspirations, and family, and ministry,
19:31 we realized that there was a good intersection there.
19:33 That's great.
19:35 And so... Then you...
19:36 Okay, so you were just kind of chatting,
19:37 and then you started after you popped the question,
19:39 so to speak, then you started getting more intentional,
19:42 would this really work?
19:43 Yeah, about our conversations, online still.
19:45 Even at your age,
19:46 you were still hashing through the issues before.
19:48 You better, you better. Yeah, I'm glad.
19:51 There's no fool like an old fool.
19:53 I know that.
19:55 And I didn't want to be that guy.
19:56 Yeah, I hear you.
19:58 I've dealt with marriages and taught healthy marriages
20:01 for I don't know, decades.
20:03 How stupid would it be for me to marry poorly
20:05 at this point of my life, you know.
20:07 So at what point after your wife's death
20:09 were you starting to realize
20:11 that you were interested in another lady?
20:13 The most intense period of pain for me
20:15 lasted 9 to 10 months, which is typical.
20:18 And so it was sometime between the 10 month and the year mark
20:21 that I began to realize something was going on.
20:24 And I thought, this is frightening.
20:26 And so I wanted to make sure what it was.
20:29 And so I took a break.
20:31 And, but when we were engaged,
20:33 I realized for sure what this was,
20:35 and I didn't look back.
20:37 You took a break from your relationship with Pam?
20:39 I took a brief break, I said,
20:40 "We both need to filter through this
20:42 to make sure that this is the right thing."
20:44 I said, "Me in particular, you don't want to marry someone
20:47 if this moves that direction,
20:49 who is looking at you as a relief from grief."
20:53 Said, "That's not, you deserve better than that."
20:55 What was it like for your one year anniversary
20:57 of your wife's death?
20:58 Were you with Pam or were you not with Pam?
20:59 I was not with Pam, I was with family.
21:02 And that was by design.
21:04 I feel like that was important for them, for me,
21:07 for the whole thing.
21:09 And I asked that because
21:10 anniversaries are very important
21:11 when it comes to grieving, the loss of somebody.
21:14 And how we spend that anniversary is also...
21:15 Birthdays, anniversaries, anniversary of her death,
21:20 wedding anniversary, all of those things were key.
21:23 And all of those were spent with Pam.
21:24 And it's good to be able to spend it in a way
21:26 that is honoring the person that you're missing.
21:29 And I was very intentional about doing that.
21:31 I wanted to make sure that this...
21:33 Again, I was sharing with you
21:35 the research is that, men, in particular,
21:37 who have had a long term successful marriage,
21:39 when they lose their spouse, they tend to remarry
21:42 within 10 to 15 months, simply because you realize
21:45 that that is your only shot at intimacy.
21:48 When you've had intimacy, when you genuinely had that,
21:51 you realize you don't want to live without it.
21:52 And you realize it's not going to come in any other direction.
21:54 Well, and also that you realize it's doable,
21:56 I did it for all that time, you know.
21:58 And that intimacy like we talked about earlier
22:00 is sharing that life, having someone to turn to
22:02 and say, "Hey, here's this God moment."
22:04 You don't get married in order to take care of your pain.
22:07 That's a mistake.
22:09 You get married, not to fill something you don't have,
22:12 but to share something you have,
22:14 and to share of someone else's.
22:16 So if my life is good and full,
22:19 then I want to share that life with someone.
22:21 You know, that's interesting 'cause Paul says,
22:22 "If I have not love, you expresses love
22:24 as something you can actually possess."
22:26 Obviously, we can't generate that God gives it to us,
22:29 but we can have it, you know.
22:30 And that's a good thing to do is to have it
22:33 in order to share it instead of thinking
22:34 of someone else meeting your needs.
22:35 Of course, that's a great principle for any marriage
22:37 is to be able to be ready to give
22:39 and not just to what I can get out of it.
22:41 Get love...
22:42 In our culture, people often use the word intimacy
22:45 almost as a synonym for sexual expression.
22:48 But in a godly marriage, it's so much richer.
22:52 That's just one aspect,
22:54 kind of the fruit of the kind of intimacy
22:56 that people share in every aspect.
22:58 And by and large it's something that men have to learn.
23:00 Yeah. Right.
23:01 We don't come to that as naturally as women do.
23:03 Women get that, I think.
23:04 Yeah, I often think, "Man, I'm so glad I'm a woman
23:07 because I have this rich network of friendships
23:10 whereas I told my husband,
23:11 if I die, you better remarry,"
23:13 because he needs that.
23:14 Yeah, I know, I have that network of people.
23:17 We call each other all the time when we're having a rough time.
23:20 We just know, and we know why the other person called.
23:22 It's not like, do you have some item of business
23:24 that you need to address.
23:25 It's like, yeah, I know you're having a bad day.
23:26 And frankly, it would be awkward for most men
23:28 to call a buddy.
23:29 I'm really having a bad day.
23:31 Butch up, dude, come on.
23:35 You know, it would just be awkward for most of the men.
23:36 But don't you think it would be good for men
23:38 to learn how to do that?
23:39 It would be good, but I don't know
23:40 that we're going to get past that frankly.
23:42 Or you'll be on the end of the growth curve
23:44 where we're way ahead, you bet.
23:46 I think it's a good thing to stretch in that direction.
23:47 It would be good, I just wasn't able to stretch that far.
23:50 Obviously, we need women to help us.
23:53 And what do the women need that we can help them with?
23:55 You can keep us alive during war time,
23:58 you know, make some money for food and stuff.
24:00 We have some...
24:02 The Bible does say it is not good
24:03 for the man to be alone,
24:04 it didn't say that about woman.
24:06 That's true because we're never alone.
24:07 And the research backs it up because men die younger.
24:09 We die younger.
24:10 It's more critical for men to be partnered than it is
24:13 or at least in relationship of some kind than women.
24:15 Bachelor's die sooner than married man
24:17 even though you may think she's killing you,
24:18 actually, she's toughening you, apparently.
24:20 Yeah, we're keeping you alive. Yeah, keeping you alive.
24:22 So I have a question like, can you discus
24:26 memories from your marriage with Pam?
24:28 Yes. How does that go?
24:30 And she wanted me to be able to do that.
24:33 Then she will bring that up, she'll ask,
24:35 "Where the two of you ever here?
24:38 What was that like?"
24:40 And so, you know, there's certain aspects of that
24:43 that she's curious about,
24:45 and wants me to be able to share?
24:46 Is it difficult? Does it feel weird?
24:48 It does, it does.
24:49 And, you know, therefore, I think that we both decided
24:52 to limit how much of that we do
24:54 simply because I want to make sure
24:56 that she knows that what I have with her...
24:59 You're in the present. Is his own thing.
25:01 You're creating memories with her.
25:03 Exactly. Yeah.
25:04 We're making a life together.
25:05 That's what made the other good.
25:08 It's what is going to make us good.
25:10 We share ministry, we share spirituality,
25:12 we share a life together.
25:14 And it's not about trying to replicate anything.
25:17 This is a new thing.
25:18 Pam's a very different personality than Gayle,
25:20 very different.
25:21 Isn't it wonderful that she actually is inviting you
25:24 to give her a part of who you were
25:27 because that's a part of who you still are today?
25:28 She's a godly woman. She recognizes this.
25:31 She's a wise woman.
25:32 And I'm honored that she would share her life with me
25:34 and be willing to do that.
25:36 That means she's got to have
25:38 a lot of self confidence too to be able to do.
25:41 This is not an easy thing. Gayle was a...
25:44 I figured that in many people's eyes
25:46 was bigger than I.
25:48 When we drive up to the church,
25:49 I used to pastor with Gayle for 17 years.
25:52 They'd build a new youth complex,
25:54 huge two story's structure,
25:55 Gayle's name is on the side of it.
25:56 They've named it after her.
25:58 Because she was just
25:59 so impacting in that congregation?
26:00 Exactly, exactly. Wow.
26:02 It was so impactful on the lives of children
26:05 and families and everyone else in the congregation.
26:08 That's how they honored her, by building this thing
26:10 and naming it after her.
26:12 Well, you know, to drive up and to visit a church
26:15 where my children still attend
26:17 to watch something my grandchildren are doing.
26:19 And she gets out of that car with me
26:21 and walks past that name.
26:23 That takes some self confidence to do that.
26:26 If she was sinful and selfish,
26:28 she'd feel she was standing in someone's shadow.
26:30 Yeah, but she doesn't believe that,
26:32 and I make sure that that I try not to do anything
26:35 that would make her think that.
26:37 Contribute to that. Yeah.
26:38 She's got her own things.
26:39 She is a unique, wonderful, talented...
26:42 She's a songwriter, isn't she?
26:43 She's a singer, not a writer.
26:45 But she's got two CDs out, and she's a gospel musician.
26:50 And she's got a unique story of her own,
26:53 quite capable woman,
26:54 and I'd tell she's been successful in business,
26:57 successful in ministry.
26:59 So I'm honored that she would share her life.
27:01 How do you deal with the Canadian thing?
27:03 You know that...
27:04 We have hired an attorney to make sure
27:06 that we do all the immigration process correctly.
27:09 She's living with you in the States?
27:10 Yeah, in Texas, yeah.
27:12 She went from Canada to Texas.
27:14 You pray for every summer, would you please?
27:17 Yes, my wife will identify with this.
27:19 Yes, yeah, you're right, yeah.
27:21 So, you know, that also speaks well of her,
27:23 the fact that she was able to leave her life there
27:27 to come and join me.
27:28 That's amazing.
27:30 That says a lot of love written all over that.
27:31 That's cool. It does, it does.
27:33 And I will never forget that sacrifice.
27:34 Didn't we read that about in that,
27:36 in the Bible with the roof?
27:37 Yeah. It's right.
27:39 "Your people will be my people, your God, my God."
27:40 Well, unfortunately, we have to wind up here.
27:42 But this has been very, very rich.
27:44 I know that it's ministered to many of you
27:46 that are maybe struggling with your own grief.
27:48 This has been a very happy ending here.
27:50 And God has a happy ending for you in the future.
27:53 Hang on. It gets better.
27:55 God is good. See you next time.