Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170038A
00:26 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:28 We are so thankful that you have returned
00:30 for the second installment
00:32 of "escape from the black hole of depression."
00:36 Or I should say part two.
00:37 But we're calling it this point
00:39 escape from the black hole of depression,
00:40 anxiety, insomnia, and a bunch of other problems.
00:43 This is the story of Steve Wolhberg.
00:46 He's shared his descent into this black hole
00:50 during the first part and now he's going to share
00:52 his ascent out of the black hole.
00:54 But he's put it all in this nifty little book,
00:56 just a little pocket book type of thing
00:58 that I assume people can get off of your website
01:01 from White Horse Media.
01:03 So WhiteHorseMedia.com.
01:06 You'll find this book and whatever you forgot
01:07 from this program,
01:09 you can see in the book and get a copy of that.
01:11 It's called help for the hopeless.
01:12 Help for the hopeless.
01:14 And you were indeed hopeless, weren't you?
01:15 You were just at the end of your rope.
01:17 I was.
01:18 I have ever been at the edge of my rope like I was.
01:22 Yeah. As I went through this.
01:24 We kind of went with you
01:26 'cause we're all, you know, counselors.
01:27 So we're very empathic
01:29 and we were feeling the last time you talked.
01:31 Let me introduce my panel here, this is Paul Coneff.
01:34 He's from Texas.
01:35 He's a marriage and family therapist,
01:37 and a speaker, and an author and etcetera, etcetera.
01:39 This is Jean Wright,
01:41 Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia.
01:43 He's a clinical forensic psychologist,
01:45 and an author, and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
01:48 This is Christina Cecotto from Tennessee.
01:52 She's a counselor
01:54 and she's going to be an author someday.
01:55 And she knows a lot about
01:57 the health message and self care.
01:58 And we're so glad, each of you are here.
02:00 And we also have Steve Wolhberg,
02:02 the director of White Horse Media,
02:04 and the man behind the story of help for the hopeless.
02:07 So how did you get out of the black hole, Steve?
02:11 There's a great text to start with.
02:12 Okay, good.
02:14 Psalm 50:15, there were verses that I clung to
02:17 in the midst of the darkest days
02:19 that I've ever been in my life.
02:22 Verse 15, Psalm 50:15 God says,
02:25 "Call upon me in the day of trouble,
02:28 I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me."
02:33 And, you know, as we kind of recap the last program,
02:36 I had a problem with sleeping, insomnia, and in order to sleep
02:41 because I don't do well when I don't sleep,
02:43 I started taking tylenol PM,
02:45 and then worked my way slowly to ambien,
02:47 and then to other medications.
02:50 Finally, the lorazepam,
02:51 which was really messing with my head.
02:55 I was, became addicted to it very quickly.
02:58 Dr. Neil Nedley,
02:59 I had a conversation with them on the phone
03:01 and told him that I was on this medication and he said,
03:04 "You've got to get to Weimar right away,
03:06 you need to be here."
03:08 So I rerouted my life,
03:10 and went to Weimar for three weeks,
03:12 and went through his depression and anxiety recovery program.
03:17 One of those days, they took my blood,
03:20 they did a blood test
03:21 and when the blood results came back from the lab,
03:25 Dr. Nedley looked at my blood and he said,
03:28 "What you're going through right now
03:29 severe anxiety, insomnia, etcetera.
03:31 It's perfectly understandable based on your brain chemistry."
03:35 And he said, "Your norepinephrine
03:37 is 10 times higher than normal.
03:40 Your serotonin and dopamine activities are very low,
03:44 you are an accident waiting to happen.
03:46 And then he looked at me, and he smiled, and he said,
03:48 "Don't worry we can fix this."
03:51 And he said,
03:52 "All your anxiety, your insomnia"
03:54 he said, "all this is going to go away."
03:56 And I just looked at him like,
03:58 is this really true, are you sure?
04:00 And I hoped against hope.
04:02 And he said, "No, we can fix this."
04:04 So I went through his program with that focused
04:06 on natural remedies and the health,
04:10 you know, health practices
04:11 and then he recommended supplements
04:14 to adjust my brain chemistry zinc B6, B12,
04:17 he looked at my genetic makeup,
04:19 said, "You're undermethylate."
04:20 I didn't really understand that.
04:21 But he said, "We need to give you more B12."
04:24 And so anyway to make long story short,
04:26 he took me off of the lorazepam.
04:29 I went through a horrific period of two weeks or so
04:33 of withdrawals, absolute nightmare,
04:35 four nights in a row without sleep.
04:38 Finally, went back home to North Idaho,
04:41 still a basket case.
04:43 And Dr. Nedley worked with me to continue the supplements
04:47 and then to mean me
04:49 off of the remaining sleep medications
04:50 that I was on.
04:52 And finally, after about a month of being home,
04:54 after about two weeks of getting off the trazodone,
04:57 which was the last hurdle as far as medications go.
05:00 One day, I woke up and it was like a new day.
05:05 So wait a minute, I thought you stayed with him
05:07 for the two weeks, and an additional week?
05:09 I went through the 10-day program
05:10 and then stayed an additional week.
05:11 Did you improve it all while you were there?
05:14 Not that I was aware of. Okay.
05:16 So you were still a mess when you left?
05:17 I was still a mess.
05:19 And I was still on the medication.
05:20 And I couldn't sleep without taking trazodone.
05:22 But you were off of the lorazepam?
05:25 And the worst of the withdrawals
05:26 were behind me when I left Weimar.
05:28 You went home and still struggling to sleep?
05:32 That's right. I still having sleep issues.
05:34 But then when I got...
05:36 But then little by little things started happen.
05:39 I went through a period where for almost three months,
05:41 I couldn't take a nap.
05:42 I mean, I was exhausted.
05:43 And I lay on my bed or my couch,
05:45 and I could not go to sleep.
05:46 So when I got home, one day, I was able to take a nap.
05:50 And I thought "God, something is happening to me."
05:52 And another day, I was able to cry
05:54 'cause I went through about two months
05:55 where I could not shed a tear.
05:57 When you're anxious?
05:58 And then I thought something is happening.
05:59 And there were these little microsteps of improvement
06:02 that encouraged me and told me
06:04 that God was at work, and my body was recovering.
06:08 And then when I finally got off the trazodone,
06:10 and there were two weeks after that,
06:13 there were side effects to getting off of that.
06:15 You know, I had various things that were happening,
06:17 that were just bizarre things when I kept thinking,
06:20 we're making progress, progress is being made...
06:23 And you were taking your supplements
06:25 for some time?
06:26 Yes, I was taking the supplements
06:27 that he'd recommended every day,
06:29 religiously getting off the medication.
06:31 And then two weeks after I got off the trazodone,
06:34 after I went through two weeks of side effects.
06:36 One day I woke up and I felt normal.
06:40 And I was just shocked.
06:42 After sleeping how long?
06:44 I probably slept.
06:45 I don't know, I don't remember six or seven hours that night.
06:47 Wasn't terrible? No.
06:49 And so I was beginning to sleep more.
06:51 And one day I had developed an appetite again,
06:53 I started getting hungry for my wife's cooking.
06:55 And so one by one
06:57 this little improvement started.
06:59 And then when the cloud lifted the next day, it came back.
07:04 But I thought, "That's okay.
07:06 We're making progress.
07:07 This is not permanent."
07:09 It's a positive self talk? That's right.
07:10 I was telling myself that God is helping me
07:14 based on the promises of the Bible.
07:17 And so then the next day after that,
07:18 I woke up in the morning and the cloud was gone.
07:22 It was a cloud.
07:23 It was like just a dark,
07:24 a dark sense of bleakness.
07:29 And it lifted and it hasn't come back.
07:33 And so... Praise God.
07:35 I just knew, you know, it's like,
07:36 somebody pushed a reset button.
07:38 God pushed a reset button and reset my brain chemistry,
07:43 my life, and he gave me my life, my life back.
07:48 Now, were you doing any lifestyle changes
07:50 during this time?
07:51 Oh, yeah, I was.
07:53 Yeah, I mean, like I said, the hot and cold therapy
07:54 we have, it was winter in Idaho when I came back after that.
07:58 Let's see, was it?
08:00 No, it wasn't, it wasn't quite winter yet.
08:01 But winter came shortly
08:04 when I came back from Weimar in a little while.
08:07 And I have a hot tub in my backyard.
08:10 And when the snow fell,
08:11 my daughter Abby, my 10-year-old,
08:15 we would go in the hot tub, and then dive in the snow.
08:18 And I texted to Dr. Nedley and I said,
08:20 "Here's our hydrotherapy."
08:21 And he said, "Do you really do that,
08:23 you really dive in the snow."
08:24 And I sent him a picture of Abby in the snow.
08:27 You know, they use water therapy in Germany
08:28 to treat depression?
08:30 So, yes, the hot and cold continued,
08:32 the healthy diet continued, the supplements continued.
08:35 Dr. Nedley recommended
08:36 a quite a bit of flax for your brain...
08:40 And exercise,
08:41 and certain kinds of beans, you know.
08:43 So we hit it from all sides, from all sides.
08:47 And ultimately, God worked through everything,
08:51 through the supplements,
08:52 and through getting off the medication.
08:54 And eventually, the cloud was gone.
08:58 And I was able to go back to work,
09:01 I'm able now to write a book, I'm able to be here at 3ABN,
09:05 I'm able to still travel and speak.
09:07 I've learned that I've got to slow down.
09:09 I can't, I don't want to get myself back into that hole.
09:12 I want to, you know, protect myself.
09:15 Did they tell you to burn the accelerator?
09:17 Yes, that was one of the things they did that there were 20,
09:20 there were 20-20 of us
09:21 that were having all kinds of problems.
09:23 You know, there was,
09:24 people were a mess when they got there.
09:26 And you could see the improvement taking place.
09:30 One gal was just, she was like a zombie.
09:32 And after 10 days,
09:34 she was laughing, she was smiling.
09:36 And we all just looked at her like,
09:37 "Wow, praise God, this works."
09:39 So even though,
09:41 even though I wasn't completely restored yet,
09:43 I had reason for hope.
09:45 And so I've done my best to keep with the program,
09:50 continue to trust the Lord.
09:51 When I was at Weimar,
09:52 I confessed everything I could think of,
09:54 cleared my conscious as much as I could,
09:56 and continue to trust Him, trust His love,
09:59 trust, His grace, trust that He cared about me,
10:02 and that He was going to help me
10:04 and that He was not only going to get me through this,
10:05 but then He was going to use me to help other people
10:08 who are going through similar things.
10:09 So that's what this is all about.
10:12 And, you know, I'm thinking Jesus
10:14 suffered and died, didn't die.
10:16 The gospel said, "He suffered, died, and rose from the dead."
10:18 And He was in Gethsemane overwhelmed
10:20 with sorrow to the point of death.
10:21 So He has been to,
10:23 we're not saying He's depressed,
10:24 we're saying He was overwhelmed with the attacks of the enemy.
10:26 And that trusted in His Father.
10:28 And because He got that victory,
10:29 that's where He gets the power
10:31 to make His promises true in your life.
10:32 That's right.
10:33 You know, at the end of the chapter on Gethsemane,
10:35 in the book, The Desire of Ages.
10:36 After he prayed that prayer three times.
10:38 And finally, He, you know,
10:39 was resolved fully to go forward.
10:42 It says in the book Desire of Ages,
10:44 that His depression and discouragement left Him.
10:48 And I read that and that showed me that
10:50 Jesus experienced depression in the Garden of Gethsemane,
10:55 it was a nightmare for Him that will never understand.
10:57 He felt that blackness...
10:58 That's right.
11:00 The devil's telling Him,
11:01 there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
11:02 You've gone too far, You'll be separated forever.
11:04 And again, on the cross, you know,
11:06 He would foretells us that He can identify with us,
11:08 He sympathize, why?
11:10 Because He's been tempted like us,
11:11 in all points yet without sin.
11:13 And so I'm wondering, you know,
11:15 that because He went through it,
11:17 He can be a compassionate,
11:18 sensitive Savior who understands.
11:21 He walked in your shoes, got the victory,
11:23 and now He has a power
11:24 to bring you out of it, brother.
11:26 So I'm wondering,
11:27 what was it like for you now
11:29 to come on the out on the other side of this
11:31 when people talk to you, yeah, I'm struggling with depression,
11:32 with anger,
11:34 because a lot of times in the church,
11:36 a typical response, I travel and do a lot of training,
11:38 the typical response I hear from people is,
11:40 "Well if you pray more, if you try harder,
11:42 if you do more."
11:43 So the emphasis on my performance,
11:45 then they feel judged, they feel unsafe,
11:47 and they don't share.
11:48 So I'm wondering when you go through a dark time like this,
11:50 and God brings you out of it by His grace,
11:52 by all the different resources you've used.
11:55 How do you hear people differently,
11:57 what's different now when people call you,
11:58 talk to you, when you're out in the front lines of ministry?
12:02 Talking about their brokenness, their struggles?
12:03 Well, I can certainly relate to them.
12:07 And my compassion, if you want to call that,
12:10 or my ability to empathize has definitely grown.
12:15 After I got through this door
12:17 unexpectedly opened in my home church for me
12:19 to take the pulpit and I shared this story.
12:23 And the response was so phenomenal.
12:26 I never expected, we recorded it,
12:28 put it on AudioVerse, people can listen to it online,
12:31 and the responses that we have received
12:33 from so many
12:34 that are struggling with the same thing
12:36 that just told me
12:37 there's a lot of people out there
12:39 that are struggling with this.
12:40 That's why we want to, you know,
12:41 that's why I put the book together,
12:43 want to try to provide the resources,
12:44 and all of this has just increased
12:46 my interest in helping other people
12:49 that are going through what I'm going through
12:51 or was going through.
12:52 One lady I talked to on the phone, she was crying.
12:54 And she just said,
12:56 "I didn't sleep at all last night,
12:57 you know, I've got two kids, what do I do?"
13:00 And so I connected her to Dr. Nedley,
13:02 and I've been praying for her, I still know her name,
13:04 I won't mention her name.
13:05 But so, you know, I just...
13:09 You know like the old story of the Grinch
13:11 who stole Christmas, you know, his heart enlarged three times.
13:15 And my heart has enlarged
13:16 and I feel for people that are going through
13:19 what I went through, and I want to help them.
13:21 I want to throw in something really quick here.
13:23 And then I know, I want you to talk about
13:25 trauma-informed church.
13:26 But you mentioned Dr. Nedley's program, which is excellent.
13:30 I refer clients there all the time.
13:31 Another option is abide counseling.
13:36 has a whole network of counselors
13:39 that come from a biblical standpoint
13:40 that do telephone and Skype work with people,
13:44 either coaching or counseling, depending on the situation.
13:48 That would be, if they don't have a severe enough problem
13:50 to sign up for Dr. Nedley's program,
13:52 that would be another option.
13:53 They don't have the financial resources.
13:55 Oh, they don't have the financial resources
13:56 to do that,
13:58 so counseling or coaching
13:59 can be significantly less expensive.
14:00 So that'd be another thing.
14:02 Because I'm seeing you like,
14:04 you get this thing out on AudioVerse
14:05 and everybody's calling you,
14:07 eventually you're going to get overwhelmed.
14:08 No, that's why we direct people
14:10 in the little booklet to Dr. Nedley's program.
14:14 And then he has a workbook, he has a DVD, he has a clinic,
14:17 there's a phone number there, people can call,
14:19 and get counseling.
14:21 And so we try to hit it in many different ways.
14:23 And I just can't praise the Lord enough
14:26 for what that program did for me.
14:27 But, you know, whether people can go to Weimar or not,
14:30 one of the overriding messages that I've learned is that
14:33 whatever you're going through, God can get you out of it.
14:36 And don't go through it alone. Yeah.
14:38 Don't try and get just willpower through our own.
14:41 So, Jean was talking about trauma-informed church,
14:44 and I love that.
14:46 I love that label.
14:47 Can you tell us a little about that
14:49 because I think it fits this story very well?
14:51 Yes, kind of where Paul was hitting on
14:52 when he was talking about people saying,
14:54 "You just need to pray more,
14:55 or people unintentionally question your faith,
14:58 you know, they mean well,
15:00 but it really talks about training a congregation
15:03 and I usually try to start with the leaders in the church,
15:05 the clergy, deacon, the deaconesses,
15:07 whoever has a leadership position,
15:09 and helping them go through trauma-informed training.
15:11 So they understand what trauma is
15:14 that they understand how it impacts people,
15:16 that they understand how to address people,
15:18 something as simple as not asking the question,
15:21 what's wrong with you?
15:23 That's a terrible question.
15:24 It's judgmental.
15:26 It puts people in a difficult position
15:28 to question who they are, the question...
15:29 So someone's having anxiety, and they tell someone,
15:32 "I'm really having some struggles with anxiety."
15:33 And the person says, "What's wrong with you?"
15:35 Yeah, the question you should ask,
15:37 "Is what happened to you?"
15:39 And what Steve described in the first program
15:42 and this program speaks to what happened to him.
15:44 And the really important piece is,
15:46 if you have a trauma-informed congregation,
15:49 you have much more education.
15:51 And I'm not talking about necessarily book knowledge,
15:53 I'm talking about experiential knowledge
15:55 about how to be a help, how to be a comfort,
15:58 how not to traumatize people by questioning their faith,
16:02 questioning their prayer life, questioning their class.
16:03 So you're asking more about their story?
16:06 And, you know, in Philadelphia,
16:08 we teach people how to tell their story,
16:09 which is an essential piece too
16:11 because sometimes a person can tell the story
16:13 and traumatize folks.
16:14 But if you can tell a person
16:16 how to hit the essential parts of their story,
16:18 so that it's a benefit, then you have what Steve has,
16:21 which is the ability to help other people heal
16:24 because of the healing that he's experienced.
16:26 Well, I think is, we need to be careful
16:27 about not saying we necessarily,
16:29 but anyone who's struggling,
16:31 you want to reach out to someone you can trust.
16:33 I mean, not everybody's going be able to provide
16:36 what that person needs.
16:37 And everyone is not equipped.
16:39 So how do we keep safe people in the church?
16:41 We need to definitely focus on that.
16:43 But what the Bible actually talks about
16:44 leaning on the strong.
16:45 And so there are some people who are too weak
16:48 to actually be able to hear your story.
16:50 And so being able to identify,
16:51 okay, who is that person that I know
16:52 is going to be compassionate and empathize with me,
16:55 as opposed to say,
16:56 "Oh, you know, what's wrong with your faith?
16:58 What's wrong with your relationship with God?
16:59 Let's, talk about that."
17:01 Did you run into that, Steve, where people were like,
17:03 they couldn't handle you being anything but Superman?
17:07 No, no.
17:08 No. Praise God.
17:09 Not at Weimar.
17:11 The people all around me were very, very sympathetic.
17:13 The staff was wonderful.
17:15 What about before Weimar though?
17:16 I'm talking about people that...?
17:18 In the church?
17:19 Yeah, a lot of them didn't know
17:20 because I didn't explain this to them.
17:22 And when I finally told my stories,
17:24 people in the church knew that something was wrong.
17:26 And a lot of them were praying for me.
17:29 But when I finally stood up one morning in church
17:30 during the church service and gave my talk,
17:33 they really didn't know the details.
17:35 Would it have helped you think
17:36 if there had been an environment in church
17:38 where people could hear each other out on that?
17:40 Or would you still not have shared?
17:42 I just, you know, I don't know.
17:43 I mean, I've worked with a couple of physicians
17:45 that were very wonderful people that, you know,
17:48 recommended on a temporary basis,
17:50 these medications, you know, I don't think they, you know...
17:56 It was, it was Dr. Nedley's program.
17:58 It was the blood work,
18:00 and it was him seeing my brain chemistry,
18:03 and recommending the supplements,
18:05 and then getting me off the medication.
18:07 I think that's what I really needed.
18:09 And so for me, just to have a sympathetic ear,
18:13 I think that would have been wonderful.
18:15 But I don't think it would have solved my problem.
18:17 I needed professional help,
18:19 and the professional help that he offered...
18:21 But a friend that actually you said though,
18:22 you reached out to somebody and they said...
18:24 Yes, that was a part of it.
18:26 That was part of it. He said what?
18:27 Because when Nathan picked me up...
18:29 And when Gary Gibbs when you talk to him,
18:31 Gary said, you should talk to Dr. Nedley, right?
18:32 That's right. Yes, that's what Gary said.
18:34 And the friend that I had at Nathan,
18:36 when Nathan pick me up and drove me to the institute.
18:39 When I first got there and told me
18:41 that he had a similar story.
18:42 I mean, him sharing with me and that encouraging ear
18:46 and that he could relate to me.
18:48 Someone who is competent.
18:49 I mean, yes, I mean, that really did help me
18:52 to give me hope that this program can work.
18:56 And that God can get me out of this
18:57 because He brought Nathan out, He can bring me out.
18:59 And then a lot of Dr. Nedley staff
19:02 are people that used to be patients,
19:04 they've been through this, and they've come through,
19:06 so they're there to encourage people.
19:08 So people that have been through, it's like me,
19:10 I can now encourage somebody else
19:13 that I've been there and God brought me through,
19:16 and He can help you.
19:18 So there's definitely a huge place
19:20 for the sympathetic ear and the shoulder to cry on,
19:23 and somebody to tell you that, you know, there's hope for you.
19:26 But I still, I feel like the professionalism...
19:29 You had a brain issue?
19:30 And I had a brain issue.
19:32 Doesn't have to be either, Paul.
19:33 I think part of an expert there.
19:36 But I would say is,
19:37 I think part of our wisdom and being a safe community
19:40 and listening is to know what we can do
19:42 and what we can't do.
19:43 And so when someone says, "Hey, I'm listening,
19:46 I'm hearing and you need professional help.
19:48 That is something that I think
19:49 the church needs to be aware of that we don't turn,
19:52 we don't wave magic wands.
19:53 That's right.
19:55 Just to tell me, I'm going to pray for you.
19:57 I mean, that's very, very valuable.
20:00 But I needed...
20:02 We need to help people get the help they need.
20:04 I did.
20:06 We need prayer and action.
20:07 I can't avoid that fact
20:09 that God led me there to help me with issues
20:13 that other people just really didn't understand.
20:15 Didn't have the ability.
20:17 But one thing that Steve did was he applied
20:19 the eight laws of health, even after Weimar.
20:21 And so he took action.
20:23 And once he had the education as to what to do
20:26 to address his issue, he then took action.
20:29 You're talking about self care?
20:30 Self care, essentially, the eight laws of health.
20:32 And we were talking a little bit
20:35 before this program started,
20:37 and we were talking about what self care is,
20:40 and my definition differs just a little bit.
20:42 Self care, essentially, is just taking care of yourself,
20:44 making sure you're pacing yourself,
20:47 making sure you're getting that down time.
20:50 In fact, one of the secrets to success in a Christian walk
20:53 according to Ellen White is that
20:55 we take time for ourselves, time to pray,
20:58 time to think, slowing down.
21:01 And Jesus did that.
21:02 He said, "Hey, 5,000 people,
21:03 I'm going to go over on the other side of the lake,
21:05 and I'm going to take some time for Myself."
21:06 Even Jesus did it.
21:08 And so many people, especially Christians feel guilty
21:11 to take time for themselves.
21:12 So self care, you know, doing the eight laws of health,
21:17 making sure you take care of yourself,
21:19 and Jesus did not burn Himself out.
21:21 Well, He really did work very, very hard.
21:24 But if we aren't taking care of our bodies,
21:26 our temple where He resides,
21:29 then we can't be an instrument for the Lord.
21:31 There's guilt sometimes
21:33 associated with taking time for ourselves.
21:35 Would you say that before this crisis,
21:37 you had some of that or no?
21:39 Probably. But...
21:40 Or do you have it now?
21:42 You know, I like to exercise
21:43 and I've always known that I need to exercise.
21:45 But now after being through this
21:47 and burning the accelerator, I feel even stronger,
21:51 that taking time in my garden and in my orchard and working,
21:56 you know, outside is exactly what I needed.
21:59 Do you have the guilt associated with that
22:01 that you did at one time,
22:03 or did you not, or you passed that?
22:05 Well, it's a balancing act, because I mean,
22:06 I would like to spend a week in the garden.
22:09 Spend a whole week.
22:10 Once you get out there, it's like...
22:12 And I do have bills to pay and I do have a ministry.
22:15 And so, you know, life is a balancing act
22:17 between, for me it's family,
22:18 yard, garden, ministry, traveling,
22:21 and I have to try to live a balanced life.
22:24 And that's what God wants.
22:26 This is a little technical,
22:27 but you could put filters on your screen
22:30 that make it less offensive to your brain,
22:32 so to speak, there's one called flux,
22:34 have you used that?
22:35 Yes, I have heard about that. And we need to look into that.
22:36 It helps...
22:38 So you can even take on like people even take yellow glasses
22:41 that filter out the ultraviolet...
22:42 I don't know, whatever.
22:44 And you can do that, they put them on a couple hours
22:46 before they go to bed and it helps their brain
22:47 get ready to sleep.
22:49 Yeah, I don't remember if it's the first program
22:50 or this program where I mentioned that
22:52 Dr. Nedley believes that
22:53 spending too much time in front of a computer screen
22:56 was a contributing factor in all of this.
22:58 So that's a good suggestion.
23:00 So you're not thinking that there was any kind of like,
23:03 baseline anxiety, I've got to conquer the world
23:06 kind of, you know, belief system going on,
23:09 there was nothing like that pushing you right there.
23:11 Well, like I said, I'm a type A personality
23:12 and, you know, the high achiever,
23:17 underneath the high achiever in my own life,
23:20 I've recognized the insidiousness
23:22 and the all pervasiveness of pride.
23:26 That is, it just goes back to,
23:29 ultimately to Lucifer, who exalted himself.
23:32 And I have to keep reminding myself, you know, biblically,
23:37 it's not of works, lest any man should boast,
23:40 we're saved by grace and, all of, you know,
23:43 achieving is not going to earn anything,
23:46 that it's the grace of Jesus,
23:48 and the cross and His merits, and His love.
23:52 And so, you know, this,
23:53 this is part of the spiritual battle too
23:55 because what, I mean, why did I push myself so hard?
23:57 Were you more tempted to trust in your own achievements
24:00 before this crisis,
24:02 and less inclined to do that afterward?
24:06 I don't know if that...
24:08 I think that I'm more aware, and it's an ongoing, you know,
24:12 sanctification is an ongoing process,
24:14 and you continue and this has been a burden
24:17 and the conviction of mine for a long time,
24:19 that the battle between pride and humility
24:22 is very, very real.
24:24 And God has taught me, "You know, learn of Me,
24:26 I am meek and lowly in heart,
24:28 and you will find rest for your soul."
24:30 So there's rest in humility.
24:33 There's a rest in trusting in Him and not in me.
24:36 And that's an ongoing lesson.
24:38 And I think that this struggle has deepened the conviction
24:42 that He's in charge, not me,
24:44 take time for yourself, rest, relax.
24:47 Don't get yourself into the hole again.
24:48 You deepened your ability
24:50 to rest in His righteousness and His merits.
24:51 Yes. And depend on Him.
24:54 It's not that you didn't know that before.
24:55 You could preach sermons on it before.
24:57 But you have been made more capable
25:00 of actually putting it
25:01 to practice the deepest parts of your inner being.
25:05 Well, and this is consistent
25:06 with what we learned in the scripture,
25:08 the disciples walking with Jesus,
25:09 different leaders in the Old Testament,
25:11 New Testament, they're telling their stories
25:13 of what were their learning curves.
25:16 It wasn't just everyday is better with Jesus,
25:18 did better the day before, I go from victory to victory.
25:21 What we see in the Bible is...
25:22 But we like that song. Yeah, we like that.
25:24 It's not biblical, but it's a nice song.
25:27 You know, if you get in an airplane,
25:28 they tell you, if an oxygen mask falls,
25:30 you put it on you or your child first?
25:32 Yourself. Yourself first.
25:34 But we say Jesus' joy, you know, Jesus, others first.
25:38 If we don't do self care, we can't be there for people.
25:41 And I look at the scripture
25:42 as the stories of the disciples,
25:44 the stories in the gospels
25:46 are the disciples telling themselves,
25:47 how they missed the main message
25:49 at every step of the way before the cross.
25:51 So there's this honesty,
25:52 there's this authenticity they have
25:54 of not beating themselves up at saying,
25:56 "Here's where I was, here's where I am,
25:58 here's where God's bringing me."
26:00 Bring you sanctification to use that word.
26:03 And if I can be honest with people about
26:04 where I am in my journey, and how I'm,
26:06 God's growing me,
26:07 that to me is more encouraging to people
26:09 than to tell people I have it all together.
26:11 Don't you think sanctification is just getting
26:13 the righteousness of Christ down
26:15 deeper and deeper into hole.
26:16 On daily basis.
26:17 Like 'cause we all know it technically,
26:19 but to actually live it and like over fig leaves
26:22 and our idols and stuff and stop trusting ourselves,
26:24 that's like...
26:25 These things happen to us and people say,
26:26 "Well, things happen to you for a reason."
26:29 But if you don't understand the reason
26:30 and the reason is to help others,
26:32 then the difficulties we go through
26:34 may fall unused.
26:37 We may not learn the lessons
26:38 that God wants us to from scripture...
26:40 And then you have to come back with another one.
26:42 And then Steve's story, our stories
26:43 now can be a blessing to many other people.
26:45 Not that He wants us to go through these.
26:47 No. It's not about shame.
26:48 No it's not like you're such a train wreck before
26:50 and God had to give you.
26:52 It's more like He saw that you were ready
26:54 and He wanted to drive the message of the gospel
26:56 even deeper down into you
26:58 so He gave you this huge mountain
27:00 you have to climb, you couldn't get over it.
27:01 And sometimes He has his faith...
27:02 He's expanding your influence...
27:04 Faith goes, yeah, with a foundation
27:05 and a platform and that may be the person
27:07 that can get the message out.
27:08 This may have not been Steve's experience.
27:11 But I can say for many of the clients
27:13 that I tend to see is that many of the reasons
27:16 why they're unable to overcome the depression
27:18 is because they are judging themselves so hard.
27:20 So hard.
27:21 And they feel like they shouldn't be crying.
27:24 They shouldn't be feeling this way.
27:25 And so they on top of the depression,
27:26 they are also...
27:28 They're shaming themselves. Right.
27:29 Oh, man, with this we could go on and on and on
27:31 with this topic, don't you think, guys?
27:33 I mean, this has been really good.
27:34 It's been a gripping journey with Steve Wolhberg,
27:38 escaping from the black hole of depression,
27:40 anxiety, panic attacks, and insomnia,
27:42 and a bunch of other things.
27:43 He went down into the depths, but by the grace of God,
27:46 he rose up to the triumph of a new life
27:48 in Christ knowing Jesus
27:50 and His righteousness better than ever before.
27:52 This book, read about the story and be blessed.
27:55 We hope you join us for the next episode
27:57 of A Multitude of Counselors.