Participants: Jim Gilley (Host), C.A. Murray (Host), Pr. Stephen Bohr
Series Code: NLL
Program Code: NLL14702A
00:24 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Night Light
00:27 on the road, "on the go" as it were.
00:29 We welcome you to Fresno, California.
00:32 We are in the very beautiful studios of Secrets Unsealed
00:36 so we welcome Pastor Bohr to our program
00:40 but in his studio.
00:43 Welcome to our studio. Thank you so very much.
00:46 My partner Jim Gilley, President of 3ABN, is here
00:49 and tonight we have a very, very important -
00:53 dare I say - timely subject. Jim... Very definitely so.
00:56 And by the way, these studios are beautiful! They really are.
00:59 And we are really happy to be here with you.
01:03 And as you notice we gave him the center seat
01:05 because this is his studio
01:08 and we felt like he certainly needed to be in the center seat.
01:13 But also I am so impressed
01:17 with the staff that you have here and the building.
01:21 And we feel the love... we really do...
01:25 as we are here working with the people
01:27 just a few hours here before we began.
01:30 And just a wonderful place, Steve. We're happy for
01:36 your ministry and for what's taking place here.
01:39 It took what? Four years to get this done, didn't it?
01:42 About 4-1/2 years, yeah.
01:44 And we're very appreciative of 3ABN
01:47 because 3ABN - as we'll mention in our dedication program -
01:51 had a lot to do with our beginnings and our continued
01:54 existence. So thank you, Jim, and thank you, C.A.
01:57 and all of 3ABN. You know, one of the great purposes
02:01 of 3ABN is to help other ministries.
02:05 At the same time, we of course bring forth the sermons
02:10 and the teaching that come from those ministries.
02:12 But many ministries are not necessarily on 3ABN
02:17 but they come to 3ABN. And someone counted over 250
02:22 ministries that have begun as a result of interviewing on 3ABN.
02:27 People seeing what they were doing was worthwhile.
02:31 Now you already had a ministry going.
02:33 I've known you for many years; Danny's known you since academy.
02:37 And so you already did... but we were able to work together
02:42 and the people were able to hear your message.
02:45 I remember the first time that my father-in-law
02:48 had gotten hold of some of your tapes.
02:51 And he put them on the radio in Dyersburg, Tennessee.
02:55 And he said: "You know this fellow? "
02:57 I said: "I certainly do. "
02:59 And from that day we have seen God continue to bless
03:03 your ministry from a local pastor,
03:07 over and over being invited to places
03:09 being on 3ABN, and people beginning to hear the Word.
03:15 And you presented it in a clear, concise
03:20 and without any type of cutting you told the truth
03:26 whenever you have done it.
03:28 By the way, Danny wanted to be here tonight
03:30 and he was going to also be at your opening.
03:34 But one of our board members - Pam Rhodes - passed away
03:39 this week. And Pam is such a wonderful person.
03:43 You see her sing a lot on 3ABN.
03:45 You've seen her sing often with Kenneth Cox.
03:49 Pam and Jimmy Rhodes are two people that we really love.
03:54 She was on our board. Jimmy always came to the board.
03:57 Jimmy has helped us over and over again
04:00 with all kinds of music and helped Kids' Time
04:03 and helped Brenda Walsh.
04:05 He's always so willing to volunteer his time.
04:08 And so our hearts go out to you, Jimmy,
04:11 and to Rondi and to the family
04:14 because we know that you are hurting right now.
04:18 And I will... I'm planning to be there for the memorial
04:22 on Sabbath. Danny is already there with the family
04:27 at this time. So please keep the Rhodes family
04:32 in your prayers because they are hurting.
04:35 They are going through what many of us have gone through.
04:40 They do have the Blessed Hope as we all have
04:44 that Jesus Christ is coming again.
04:48 And we just believe with all of our hearts
04:51 that we're going to see Pam in the resurrection.
04:54 Amen. And she loved the Lord; she was so committed.
04:57 She not only committed of her time,
05:00 she committed financially and every way
05:02 to the spreading of the gospel
05:04 in ways the Rhodes have never told anybody.
05:08 But she has been so supportive of many ministries.
05:12 Of our ministry, of Pastor John Carter's ministry,
05:18 of Kenneth Cox's ministry and others
05:21 and has served on the Cox board for years.
05:24 She's chairperson of the Cox board.
05:26 And so we're going to miss her... we really are.
05:30 She was a powerhouse for the Lord
05:34 and our hearts go out to the family.
05:38 Well, we have a serious subject tonight.
05:42 And before we do, C.A., we have a free offer.
05:46 We do have a free offer. It is a DVD that it would be
05:49 our privilege and pleasure to send to you.
05:53 Pastor, tell us a little bit about the DVD.
05:56 Well we did a series recently here in our studio
05:59 called The Bible or Tradition?
06:01 And this particular one is #4 in the series.
06:05 It's Jesus and Theological Conflict.
06:07 How Jesus dealt with those who came with controversial issues.
06:13 And basically it shows that every time that there was
06:16 a conflict Jesus answered with "It is written. "
06:19 Never with tradition; always with "It is written. "
06:21 So this is #4 in the series The Bible or Tradition?
06:24 All right, there's a number of ways you can get this.
06:27 First we'll give you the Secrets Unsealed contact point.
06:37 or 888-REV-1412
06:41 That's kind of cute... 1412.
06:43 Revelation 14:12. Excellent.
06:44 Now if you are accustomed to calling the 3ABN number
06:47 you can do so. Again you would call 618-627-4651
06:55 or e-mail us at freeoffer@3abn. org
07:00 freeoffer@3abn. org
07:03 And we will bring this back to you from time to time
07:05 during the course of the night so you can write this down
07:07 and it would be our privilege and pleasure to send it to you.
07:09 Now, a preacher and a microphone are a dangerous combination.
07:13 We were talking with Danny Shelton
07:16 and he was talking about your days at the academy
07:19 as an academy student.
07:21 And he had much to say.
07:25 I'm sure.
07:27 Actually, Pastor, you will be glad to know
07:31 and your congregation will be glad to know
07:34 and the world - perhaps - will be glad to know that
07:35 he said you were pretty much the same guy in school
07:41 as you are now. You were not a goof-off.
07:43 You were a straight shooter. You studied hard.
07:45 You lived for the Lord. You were the R.A.
07:47 Yeah, you were the R.A. He said that sometimes
07:50 they would do a little hijinx. Nothing horrible, but you know,
07:53 the high school kids will do some things.
07:55 He said: "But Pastor Bohr didn't participate in those.
07:58 He came into school to study to prepare himself
08:00 to serve the Lord. " So it would be refreshing for you to know
08:05 that the Pastor has no skeletons in his high school closet
08:07 as far as we know. That he was a good student of the Word
08:12 and a good young man in school. So says Danny Shelton.
08:15 Well Danny's right.
08:20 I remember Danny as a phenomenal basketball player.
08:26 Um-hmm. A guard. Fast. I remember him also
08:30 as being a very fast sprinter.
08:32 Whenever we had academic... well not academic but sports
08:36 competitions - yeah - he was always the winner.
08:39 Um-hmm. He always ended the race number one.
08:43 Well he's still running.
08:47 And he's still playing basketball, too.
08:49 And it's amazing. He's not a spring chicken,
08:52 but he plays every Tuesday night.
08:55 Can't walk on Wednesday, but...
08:59 So you don't plan anything on Wednesday.
09:02 I do remember that he was a fierce competitor.
09:05 Yes he is. Um-hmm.
09:07 And he is amazing with his athletic abilities,
09:12 he really is. Danny's a hard-working, very competitive
09:15 individual. He brags... brags... he always
09:19 talks about not having an education.
09:21 Don't ever let anybody fool you.
09:24 Two of the smartest people that I know only have
09:28 high school educations. One of them is Danny Shelton;
09:31 the other one is Garwin McNeilus.
09:33 Hope you're not watching, Garwin, but I don't want to
09:35 pay you a compliment here. But these are two very
09:40 intelligent men. Just having an education
09:43 doesn't necessarily mean you're intelligent.
09:45 And not having an education
09:47 doesn't mean you're not intelligent.
09:49 And so he has used his ability, his gut feel,
09:55 and the Lord just equipped him.
09:59 The Lord gave him exactly the abilities that he needed
10:04 to do what the Lord did through him at 3ABN.
10:08 When the Lord calls you to do something
10:11 He will equip you along the way.
10:13 And He did just that with Danny.
10:15 And I love working with him. I know you do, too.
10:19 He's just really a good fellow.
10:21 But he only has good things to say about you.
10:25 He admires you... he loves you. Very true.
10:29 And again I said he would love to be here.
10:31 He will have a taped message for the meeting here
10:35 on Saturday night. Um-hmm.
10:37 We need to just put a little plug in for that, Pastor.
10:40 It is Sabbath evening we actually dedicate this facility.
10:43 On 3ABN it is 6 o'clock Pacific time
10:48 so that will be 8 o'clock our time in the Central time zone.
10:52 Two hours, and it's going to be a wonderful program.
10:55 You want to tune in for that.
10:56 And it comes in our regular Today Show slot so there's no
11:00 moving around, and we're excited to be with you.
11:02 Again, a very beautiful studio.
11:04 Well, Pastor, we've talked about some other things.
11:05 We need to sort of move into our subject for the evening.
11:09 As you well know if you've been watching television,
11:12 listening to the news, listening to the radio
11:14 the... how should we say? The ecumenical movement,
11:19 the joining, the coming together of Protestantism
11:22 and Catholicism has gone into a new gear dare I say.
11:27 Taken on a new impetus during the last several months.
11:30 And interestingly enough, the overt gestures have come
11:35 from the Protestant side.
11:36 Well this is in harmony with some things that we as a church
11:38 have been studying for years.
11:41 And so tonight we've asked Pastor Bohr
11:44 to walk us through his digest of these "goings-on. "
11:48 What does it mean to us as a church?
11:51 What does it mean to Protestantism as a movement?
11:54 What does it mean to Catholicism as a movement?
11:57 And what does it mean to those of us who are students
12:01 of the eschaton... those things that pertain
12:03 to the end of the world. What's happening prophetically?
12:06 And what should we do about it? What should we think?
12:09 How should we respond? So Pastor, we thank you
12:11 so very, very much. Jim... anything?
12:13 Well, only this... You know, it seems like
12:17 that unity is something that everybody should be for.
12:22 I mean, when you hear that you look at John 17
12:25 and the unity that it speaks of here.
12:28 And so we are often... People will say:
12:31 "What's wrong with you Adventists?
12:32 Everybody else is lining up.
12:35 Everybody else is getting into this unity thing
12:39 but you keep holding out for some different things. "
12:45 And it's very important that we know why that we cannot
12:49 be a part of that unity.
12:52 It's extremely important because I want to tell you folks
12:57 that the argument for pulling together will sound better
13:02 and better and better and we will sound
13:05 worse and worse and worse as time goes on.
13:10 Because there's going to be world conditions and things
13:12 that take place, and we're going to see enemies
13:16 arise that you would think all Christians should ban together
13:21 in order to handle these crises that are going to be
13:25 happening in the world. So it's going to be tempting.
13:28 And the amazing thing is we're not against unity.
13:35 You're going to find out what we ARE against
13:38 and why it's important for us to keep our eyes open.
13:42 You know, Jim, there are three words
13:48 in John 17 that are being emphasized these days.
13:51 Of course, that's the unity chapter.
13:53 The first concept is glory.
13:55 The second concept is love.
13:58 And the third concept is unity.
14:00 You know, Tony Palmer recently at a charismatic convention
14:05 underlined the importance of glory and love.
14:09 But there's another word which comes out in John chapter 17
14:14 several times... and it's the word truth.
14:17 And I never hear any of those who are in favor of the
14:22 ecumenical movement speaking about the importance of truth.
14:25 Jesus said: "Sanctify them through Your truth...
14:28 Your Word is truth. " I don't hear that
14:32 particular text being quoted when people refer to John 17.
14:37 And you know, there's a lot of talk about unity and diversity.
14:42 And there's nothing wrong with unity and diversity
14:45 for example of gender... diversity of nationalities,
14:49 diversity of vocations.
14:52 The problem is when you talk about diversity of theology.
14:56 Nowhere do we find Jesus in the gospels in favor
15:00 of doctrinal diversity.
15:02 That's where it stops because
15:03 you're dealing with truth and you
15:05 can't have several contradictory
15:08 truths and people being united at the same time.
15:11 It's impossible.
15:13 So I seem to hear you saying that if you have truth -
15:15 truth and unity - truth trumps unity.
15:19 Of course. Because really unity that is not based on truth
15:24 will eventually fall apart. Um-hmm.
15:26 Right. And love that's not based on truth is not love.
15:31 Because it has to be based upon what the Bible teaches,
15:36 what Jesus taught and the truth of His Word
15:40 for it to truly be love.
15:42 You know, there's a lot of talk about love - yeah - these days.
15:46 But the love that is being referred to is more of a
15:49 sentimental emotional-type love. "Let's just all get along. "
15:53 You know? Yeah. And I hear very little the definition
15:55 that Jesus gave of love. He said: "If you love Me,
15:59 "you will keep My commandments. "
16:01 You don't hear that at all in the talking about humanism.
16:06 You hear a lot about, you know, just "Let's all get under the
16:10 same umbrella and just love one another
16:13 and get along and everything will be OK. "
16:16 But that is just a wrong definition of love. Right.
16:21 Well it's...
16:22 When we look at this with a critical eye
16:28 what they are talking about is doing away with truth
16:33 so that we can all get along together...
16:36 or be together. Because it's always those things...
16:41 I think the statement has been made: "The protest is over. "
16:45 What was the protest over, Pastor?
16:48 You know, that's a very import- ant question that you asked Jim.
16:51 It goes to the heart of the issue.
16:53 Basically when Tony Palmer went to Kenneth Copeland's convention
16:56 charismatic convention of leaders
16:59 he said that Luther had a battle with the Roman Catholic church
17:05 over righteousness by faith...
17:07 that that was the central battle.
17:09 But that was not the central battle.
17:11 The central battle was Sola Scriptura.
17:14 The central battle was whether scripture alone
17:18 not including tradition
17:21 is the standard of doctrine and practice.
17:24 And righteous by faith is a doctrine that is found
17:28 in the Bible but it is not the doctrine
17:31 that Martin Luther primarily brought forward.
17:34 He's known for that, but the reason why he could say
17:37 that man is justified by grace through faith
17:40 is because he found it in Romans - right.
17:42 In other words it's Sola Scriptura
17:45 it's not righteousness by faith that is at the center.
17:48 So if you use that definition that would mean that Christians
17:52 could never unite because Sola Scriptura
17:55 would show that many Christians are in harmony with scripture
17:58 while many others are not. Um-hmm. Important point:
18:02 the Council of Trent - mid 1500's - took 18 years
18:05 to say basically among other things
18:08 "tradition = scripture. "
18:10 So though righteousness by faith is one facet
18:16 of the issue, the issue is where is the Bible?
18:19 Is the Bible up top? Is the Bible beneath?
18:22 Is the Bible along side?
18:23 And I think Martin Luther's
18:24 overarching premise was that
18:26 the Bible has to be #1. Um-hmm.
18:28 Got to be up top.
18:30 Could I just say one thing? Yes.
18:32 You know, it took Lutherans
18:36 and Roman Catholics 33 years
18:40 to hammer out their joint declaration on righteousness
18:43 by faith. Um-hmm. The scholars had to study the issue
18:45 for 33 years. Now if it takes 33 years
18:49 for two denominations to study an issue
18:52 and reach a consensus,
18:53 you have to wonder. Yeah... Laughter.
18:58 Yeah, if it's really truth you ought to be able to do it
19:00 in a weekend. Laughter.
19:03 You ought to be able to do it in a day, C.A.
19:05 Praise the Lord!
19:07 Protestant leaders - Tony Palmer, Joel Osteen,
19:10 others - are reaching back. They're lining up to
19:13 meet with the pope to spend some time with him.
19:17 What would lead, Pastor, in your mind,
19:20 a Protestant denomination, a Protestant leader,
19:23 to sort of "cozy up" to a church that has
19:26 by its own admission a history of repression?
19:29 A history of torture? We know about the
19:34 history - the long history - of the Catholic church
19:36 for which a former pope has already apologized.
19:39 So they don't deny that when they were in ascendency
19:41 they were rough on those who wanted to believe other things.
19:44 What would lead these leaders to sort of swallow all of the
19:48 history and reach back and try to join hands
19:50 with the Catholics? I think there are three factors.
19:52 Factor number one is post-modern thought.
19:56 Because basically post-modernism says
20:00 that there is no absolute truth.
20:02 So that means that the Bible does not contain absolute truth.
20:06 Truth is relative. In other words, your truth is not
20:09 necessarily my truth. There is no absolute moral truth.
20:12 That's the first factor.
20:14 The second factor is that Protestantism has shifted away
20:20 from a method of prophetic interpretation which is known as
20:24 historicism. Uh-huh. Basically, virtually all of the
20:29 Protestant Reformers believed that the man of sin
20:31 of II Thessalonians 2 represent- ed the Roman Catholic papacy.
20:36 But - and maybe we can get into the details a little bit later
20:40 in our conversation - but the Protestant world today
20:43 has embraced 2 different ways of interpreting these prophecies.
20:47 One is Preterism, that they were fulfilled in the distant past,
20:51 and the other is Futurism, that they will be fulfilled
20:54 in the distant future. Um-hmm. And so the papacy during
20:58 what we call the Dark Ages has nothing to do with the
21:01 fulfillment of prophecy because the prophecies were
21:03 fulfilled in the distant past or will be fulfilled
21:07 in the future. And so they can't see that
21:09 prophecy is being fulfilled right before their eyes
21:12 because they're looking at the wrong time and they're looking
21:15 also at the wrong place. Umm... Uh-hmm.
21:18 So those are two very important factors.
21:21 And maybe a little bit later we can get into a 3rd factor
21:24 which I believe is even more significant
21:28 and that is that Protestantism today is based on experience
21:35 rather than on scripture. That's very true.
21:37 You know you hear Protestant preaching.
21:40 You know it's about feeling good and getting along with people
21:43 and you know social health and make yourself rich.
21:45 And you know all of these different gospels that are being
21:47 preached. And it's a "feel-good religion. "
21:51 If religion makes you feel good, then it is good...
21:55 even if it contradicts scripture.
21:57 So experience-driven theology will lead you down a wrong road.
22:01 Theology based on scripture as the absolute authority
22:05 will lead you down the right road.
22:07 You know really most people - most Protestants - do not know
22:11 what their church teaches.
22:12 When you visit with them you ask them
22:16 "Why do you belong to this church? "
22:19 I had a dentist one time
22:21 he told my father
22:23 He said: "I belong to... "
22:26 And he named the church..
22:27 And my father said: "Why? " He said: "Because
22:29 there are more teeth in that church. "
22:31 And so he was looking at it from an economic standpoint.
22:36 I happen to have been part of a group in Dallas called
22:39 The Dallas 40.
22:41 And these were 40 young men under the age of 40
22:45 that were leaders in the city of Dallas, Texas.
22:47 And some way I got put in there.
22:50 But as I would visit with those individuals about the church
22:54 that they attended they had no idea what their church taught.
22:58 None whatsoever.
23:00 They were there for social or political reasons.
23:03 And many of them belonged to whatever was the largest
23:08 group in town. That's where they wanted their membership
23:10 whether they ever attended a church or not.
23:13 So then when you get to the family factor
23:17 so many people, particularly the part of the world where
23:20 we live in the South and Southwest
23:22 belong to a church because that's just the church
23:25 their family's always been a part of.
23:27 And it's a social-type thing
23:31 where their friends are there, their family is there.
23:34 They have no idea. I mentioned the other day
23:38 that I asked a man one time, I said: "What do you believe? "
23:42 And he said: "I believe what my church believes. "
23:44 And I said: "Well, what does your church believe? "
23:46 And he said: "My church believes what I believe. "
23:48 And I said: "Well, what do you and your church believe? "
23:51 He said: "The same thing. "
23:53 So they have no idea what they believe.
23:57 And when you even get down to the specifics like
24:02 the state of the dead there'll be 14 or 15 different
24:05 theories about what really happens when a person dies.
24:09 When it comes to baptism they don't really know
24:13 what the Bible teaches about baptism.
24:15 Maybe one group is stronger in that area than others,
24:18 but most of them it really doesn't make any difference.
24:22 So when you start to talk about truth...
24:26 Now it's amazing... the Catholic church knows what
24:29 they believe. Now the church does...
24:32 maybe all of the members don't.
24:34 But they have a hard-line teaching
24:38 and they're not giving up on those things.
24:39 They may give up on some peripheral things
24:42 but they're not giving up on the different things that
24:46 have been sort of the key to the Reformation
24:50 where you were talking about if the Bible doesn't teach it
24:54 then you don't believe it.
24:57 But look at... they have the prayer of the saints.
24:58 They have Mary being honored beyond the way that she should
25:03 be honored. They go on and on
25:06 with their different systems of tradition.
25:10 And they do this without any scripture whatsoever
25:13 and their members and their priests accept these.
25:18 But they're not giving any of those really up
25:21 when you come down to this merger thing.
25:23 It's "Why don't you forget your differences
25:25 and come and be a part of our group? "
25:28 Yeah, the bottom line is the Roman Catholic church
25:32 has not changed one single dogma.
25:36 They call doctrine dogma. Yes.
25:38 It's much more dogmatic. Yes.
25:41 And so you know, you examine the Roman Catholic writings
25:46 and every single one of their teachings is still in place.
25:49 So has the Roman Catholic church changed?
25:53 I like to say that the Roman Catholic church has received
25:55 a face lift. Yeah. She looks different...
25:58 especially after Vatican II. Um-hmm.
26:00 You know, the Roman Catholic church went through a major
26:04 face lift there, and it has been happening through the course
26:08 of the years, and that has given Protestants the idea
26:10 that there's no danger you know. The Roman Catholic church is
26:13 changed, it's different. The fact is the Roman Catholic
26:16 church has not changed
26:18 in its essence or its fundamentals at all.
26:21 And Protestants some day will wake up
26:24 but it's going to be too late.
26:26 What has changed is their method of evangelization
26:30 and their method of PR.
26:34 And by the very fact that they have become very much
26:40 involved in the media. There's one particular network
26:44 for instance. If you listen very carefully,
26:47 every major player on that network except one
26:51 is a Roman Catholic.
26:53 And not only that but a Jesuit.
26:56 And they will tell you: "I was Jesuit trained.
26:58 I went to the Jesuit school. " And the amazing thing is
27:01 that when you listen to that particular channel
27:05 they hold the standards higher than the other channels do
27:10 in things like same-sex marriage
27:14 and in other areas. They are holding the standard
27:17 higher. But you see, this is... The whole
27:21 way of selling what they're doing is what has changed.
27:25 In the past it was line up or else
27:28 and now it's not exactly that way...
27:31 at least at this time.
27:33 We're heading toward "line up or else" again...
27:34 it's going to come back.
27:35 Did you want to respond to that?
27:37 Cause I've got a question for you but I caught you...
27:40 I want to say that the best description I've ever found
27:41 of the papacy is not very complimentary.
27:45 It was given by Ellen White
27:47 where she expressed it this way:
27:50 "Under the variable appearance of the chameleon
27:54 is the invariable venom of the serpent. "
27:58 In other words, the chameleon changes according to
28:01 the environment that it's found in.
28:03 But it's still a chameleon. Yeah, um-hmm.
28:05 And so the Roman Catholic papacy externally, visibly
28:09 it changes so that people will think that there is no fear -
28:14 no reason to fear - but the venom is there.
28:17 Yes. And unfortunately
28:19 people will wake up only when it's too late.
28:23 Protestantism, Pastor, grew out of an understanding
28:27 that the church that was - I'll use the term - running the show
28:31 had veered away from the Bible.
28:34 Their practices were not Biblical... were not Biblically
28:36 defensible. Now 500 years later
28:39 we see the same issues in Protestantism.
28:42 They have veered away from the Bible
28:45 and the new altar is the altar of unity and love.
28:49 You know, and a lot is being sacrificed for love and unity.
28:52 Doctrine is being sacrificed.
28:54 Individuality is being sacrificed.
28:55 Bible study is being sacrificed.
28:56 Let's just be together.
28:58 What in your mind then is the Biblical and correct position
29:02 of love? And do you see love as part of and in the
29:08 body of the Ten Commandments?
29:10 Well, you know, it's very easy to find out what the Biblical
29:13 definition of love is.
29:16 In John 14:15 Jesus said
29:20 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "
29:23 And the apostle Paul, after quoting the last 6 commandments
29:27 of the Ten Commandments, said
29:29 "Love is the fulfilling of the law. " Yes.
29:32 So you cannot speak about love
29:36 without referring to God's law.
29:38 Jesus summarized the law in two great principles:
29:41 love for God and love for your neighbor.
29:44 If you look at the Ten Commandments you'll find
29:46 that the first four describe our relationship to God.
29:50 You know, what it means to love God.
29:52 If you love God, you're not going to have other gods.
29:54 If you love God, you're not going to make an image that
29:56 degrades your view of God. Um-hmm.
29:58 If you love God, you're going to respect His name.
30:00 And if you love God, you're going to want to spend all
30:02 24 hours with Him on the Sabbath.
30:04 And then the last table of the law,
30:07 the second table, you know - if you love your neighbor
30:09 you're not going to kill him.
30:10 If you love your parents, you're not going to beat them up
30:11 you're going to honor them.
30:12 And you're not going to commit adultery with your neighbor's
30:14 wife. So it's very superficial simply to use the summary
30:19 that Jesus gave that, you know, there's two great principles
30:21 in the law: love for God and love for your fellow
30:23 human beings and not realize that that's just a summary
30:27 or synthesis of ten principles. And by the way, the entire Bible
30:33 is an amplification of the ten. Precisely.
30:35 That's right. If you will actually look at
30:39 the Roman church, you will see that those first four
30:43 are the ones they have changed.
30:45 The one that says "Don't have any graven image"
30:48 they have graven images.
30:50 The one that says "Remember the Sabbath Day"
30:53 they change that day.
30:56 So they not only don't keep the law
30:59 they have changed God's law.
31:01 And this to me is another evidence
31:05 of the fact that Protestantism has followed them
31:10 at least on the day of worship.
31:12 If not some of the others they've followed them on that.
31:15 So respond to this then, Pastor.
31:16 So if someone says: "Forget about the commandments,
31:20 let's just love" it's an oxymoron at best
31:22 or insanity at worst
31:24 because one goes hand in hand with the other.
31:26 And to make them opposed to each other just is not
31:29 Biblically defensible.
31:30 Well let me ask you this:
31:32 does marriage have laws?
31:34 Yes it does. Is there a law that says that you can't have
31:37 another woman? I believe there is.
31:39 So how would your wife feel if you said
31:41 "Oh dear, you know, I just love you.
31:43 Don't worry if I go out with the neighbor's wife...
31:45 you know I love you. "
31:46 We wouldn't be having this conversation.
31:47 We wouldn't, right...
31:52 So love is based on rules
31:55 but the rules are kept naturally, not because
31:59 they're imposed - um-hmm - but because you know you
32:02 love your wife and therefore you delight to treat her well.
32:05 You delight to have her as your only wife.
32:08 And so, you know, the same is true with Jesus.
32:11 If we love Jesus, it will be a delight for us to obey Him
32:14 and to follow Him. Um-hmm.
32:17 Well, I think you put it very well... I really do.
32:22 What about the sociological impact today?
32:25 Society... how is it bringing
32:28 about this merger of
32:31 Protestantism and Catholicism?
32:33 Well, I'll mention just a few issues.
32:36 One thing that has brought Roman Catholics and Protestants
32:40 closer together are the social issues that both of them have
32:44 joined together to fight against.
32:46 OK. Like for example Rowe vs. Wade.
32:49 You know, both Catholics and Protestants - and by the way
32:52 Adventist should also be respectful of life as well.
32:56 Absolutely. But, you know, because they're fighting for
32:59 common causes like prayer in public schools,
33:02 against Rowe vs. Wade, in favor of traditional marriage -
33:05 you know, Protestants and Catholics both agree on those
33:08 issues, those social issues -
33:09 they've cooperated, and as they've cooperated
33:14 they've been brought close together by the social issues.
33:17 And I'm not saying that we can't fight for common
33:20 social issues. What I'm saying is that those social issues
33:22 bring the two together and then as a result
33:26 they also say that theology doesn't matter.
33:29 And that's where you have to draw the line.
33:30 Where has the church - the Catholic church - lined up
33:34 as far as creation and evolution?
33:37 Well, it all depends on whether you're talking with the clergy
33:42 or whether you're talking with the people out in the pew.
33:44 Uh-huh. I believe that as I've had contacts with Roman
33:47 Catholics - just the rank and file Roman Catholics -
33:50 they still believe that God created the world in 6 days
33:52 and rested the seventh day.
33:54 But the clergy of the Roman Catholic church
33:57 believes in progressive creation or theistic evolution.
34:01 They don't believe that the world was created in 6 days.
34:04 In fact, John Paul II clearly said that evolution
34:09 is more than a hypothesis. Umm.
34:11 So the Roman Catholic church in its theological system
34:14 has embraced evolution. Um-hmm.
34:17 In listening to a lot of the rhetoric that is out today
34:22 we're moving towards "There's room for everybody
34:25 under the tent. " The worst thing you can be
34:28 is someone who believes in ultimate truth
34:30 and stands for ultimate truth to the negation.
34:33 In other words, if 1 + 1 is 2
34:35 then it's always going to be that way
34:37 and no other set of numbers will equal that.
34:42 The idea of diversity is becoming the watchword.
34:48 You know, you can't say "I believe this; I believe
34:50 nothing else... I believe this. "
34:52 I'm going to use the three D's: the dumbing down of doctrine.
34:55 You know, doctrine means nothing.
34:57 Diversity is of God now.
35:03 Respond to that idea because that's what's happening.
35:06 People are saying: "Pretty soon if you don't believe like I
35:10 believe, you are out.
35:12 You're going to be gone. We don't want you there. "
35:14 They haven't said it yet, but they're working their way
35:16 towards saying it. So respond to that mindset if you will.
35:19 Well the Bible says that there is diversity.
35:22 Of course, there's diversity in creation. Um-hmm.
35:25 You know, there's diversity of gifts.
35:28 The apostle Paul says there's diversity of gifts.
35:31 There's diversity of gender.
35:34 There's diversity of nationalities.
35:37 Diversity of languages.
35:39 All those are fine.
35:40 But nowhere in the Bible do you ever find that God
35:45 approves of diversity of doctrine
35:48 where you have one truth - supposedly - that contradicts
35:51 another truth. There simply cannot be theological diversity
35:56 and be faithful to the Bible
35:57 because the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit
36:00 and the Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. Yes.
36:01 So you're not going to have contradictory views
36:04 in scripture. Um-hmm, um-hmm.
36:05 So you know, unity and diversity... I believe in that.
36:09 I believe that all of God's people should be united
36:11 no matter what their nationality, no matter what
36:13 language they speak, you know.
36:15 But that doesn't mean that we should all be united
36:18 even though we have divergent theologies and Biblical ideas.
36:21 Um-hmm; um-hmm. So you certainly believe
36:24 that there is ultimate truth.
36:26 Of course, and the ultimate...
36:29 Jim and I were talking about that the other day... we were
36:30 talking about ultimate truth. And a lot of people don't buy
36:32 that... that there IS an ultimate truth. Yeah.
36:34 You know what's interesting is that people will accept the
36:38 idea that there is... that there are laws
36:44 in the area of mathematics, in the area of physics,
36:48 in the area of chemistry, in the area of biology.
36:50 They say you have absolute laws in those disciplines.
36:54 Um-hmm. But when it comes to absolute moral truth
36:57 there is no such thing.
36:58 And I believe that the reason why
37:01 people don't want to accept absolute truth
37:04 is that they would have to accept a God
37:07 who gave us that absolute truth.
37:10 And if we don't obey that absolute truth - um-hmm -
37:13 someday we will have to render an account - yes -
37:16 before the One who gave absolute truth.
37:19 We will have to stand before His judgment bar.
37:21 And so basically the idea is "Let's get rid of God.
37:24 Let's get rid of absolute truth and that way we get rid of the
37:28 idea that we have to render an account to God
37:31 who created us. " I agree... yes.
37:32 Now I want to move back to a question we talked about
37:35 just a moment ago. We talked about the sociological factors:
37:39 we talked about the uniting on Rowe vs. Wade for instance.
37:44 On the abortion situation.
37:46 And you mentioned that Adventists should be supporting
37:52 you know, that type of thing. Right.
37:54 We should be not for abortion... open abortion. Right.
37:59 And I think that we have to be careful
38:03 that just because the Roman church is for something
38:07 that puts us against it.
38:09 And they have been very strong in this area.
38:13 And I think if anything we probably should have been
38:15 stronger in the area than we have been.
38:20 And definitely - maybe - stronger than they are
38:22 if that's possible - in that particular area.
38:28 It is amazing, and when I was speaking last week...
38:31 I was doing a little research... that it is a $15,000 fine
38:36 for disturbing a turtle egg... a sea turtle egg
38:40 or sea turtle nest down the coast.
38:44 And yet you can do a human egg... you can do an abortion
38:48 on even a fetus and not only not be fined
38:53 but they'll pay for it... the government will pay for it.
38:56 We have people coming along that want to have sex change
39:01 operations and the government says: "Well that's fine,
39:04 we'll pay for that. " But we have people that are
39:07 in genuine need. When we were here in California six weeks ago
39:13 in the Oakland and San Francisco area
39:15 ASI was there, set up clinics. Thousands of people came
39:20 that are falling through the health thing for their teeth
39:23 and for their eyes and for other things.
39:26 And yet if one of those persons wanted a sex change operation
39:31 they would see to it that they could get it right away.
39:34 So I think that it does really behoove us
39:38 as a people to stand for that which is right.
39:41 Not just from the Biblical standpoint, although it's all
39:45 Biblical in a sense.
39:46 But that we not be afraid to stand for some of these
39:50 sociological situations as far as... When it's in harmony
39:54 with the Bible - and I believe that abortion is killing -
39:58 I have no question in my mind about that.
40:02 Some people are always saying: "Well what about this? "
40:04 Listen, don't bring me all of those situations
40:07 because in all the years I've been in ministry -
40:11 and I don't want to tell you how many that is -
40:13 I have only seen one or two situations
40:16 out of the hundreds where there was a real challenge
40:21 to somebody's health. By the way,
40:23 in both of those cases the lady went ahead
40:26 and carried the baby and it came through healthy
40:29 and so did she.
40:31 So it is not a situation that happens so often
40:35 that that has to be the whole domination
40:39 of our conversation.
40:42 So I just want to make an emphasis.
40:44 I know you mentioned it, but I just want to over
40:47 state it maybe perhaps that this is a strong area
40:51 that we must, in my opinion, be stronger in standing for.
40:56 Yeah, I'd kind of like to say that you're not only preaching
40:59 but you practice what you preach.
41:01 Let me tell you why. Last Sabbath at 3ABN Camp Meeting
41:06 I wasn't able to make it when you preached...
41:09 you preached earlier in the morning...
41:11 I was getting ready... You don't get up that early,
41:13 do you? No, I was up... I was up.
41:17 But I was watching... But you're on California time, too.
41:20 There you go; thank you for letting me off the hook.
41:23 I was watching your sermon and you were speaking about...
41:32 I'm trying to remember the exact terminology...
41:34 alternative adultery and alternative theft and so on.
41:39 You remember? Alternative sexuality I think they call it.
41:43 Yes. Or something like that. Yeah, you were talking about
41:48 traditional marriage... how the Biblical pattern is traditional
41:52 marriage. That's it!
41:53 And you don't have alternative
41:55 thieves and you don't have
41:56 alternative adulterers you know?
41:59 So why should you have
42:00 alternative marriage?
42:03 I don't know why they're even considering that.
42:05 And so you're not only talking the talk
42:08 but you're also walking the walk.
42:09 You're not afraid to step out and address
42:12 a controversial issue and I appreciated that.
42:14 Well I think we have to. We're going to have to have
42:17 the courage of our convictions.
42:18 And when you come back to the Sola Scriptura
42:22 you know we're going to have to be taking that stand stronger
42:26 and stronger and stronger
42:28 because there are all kinds of sociological things
42:31 that are pressing us towards decisions that are just
42:34 not Biblical. And we're going to be facing this.
42:39 And I hope that we can perhaps address this.
42:42 We're talking about addressing some of these subjects at ASI
42:46 on Thursday night with a Live.
42:48 We want to invite you to be a part of that.
42:49 And we're going to be looking at some of these issues
42:53 that are facing... The world has already
42:56 gone their way. What I'm concerned about now
42:58 is the church... that the church will hold strong,
43:02 stay close to God's Word.
43:04 and that we will not allow the sociological pressures
43:09 to push us away from God's Word.
43:12 Amen! Amen!
43:13 Pastor, you understand as much as anybody that
43:15 sociology has always exerted some amount of pressure
43:19 on the church. And I think it is to the extent
43:22 that the church resists those kinds of cultural
43:25 pressures and stands for the right that it is doing the will
43:29 of God. And the Adventist church is not immune
43:31 to the sociological and cultural pressures that
43:34 are in the world around us.
43:37 There are certain things that we're going to have to wrestle
43:39 with and wrestle with strongly.
43:40 And when you scrape off the frosting
43:43 and get down to the meat of the thing
43:45 the argument is not Biblical it is sociological.
43:48 And we cannot allow sociology to shape theology.
43:52 It cannot be. The ethnic... the ethnic cannot shape the ethic.
43:58 We must stand for the Word of God
44:00 amid the sociological pressures.
44:02 If we just went with sociology, we wouldn't keep Sabbath
44:05 because most of the world is not keeping Sabbath.
44:06 So we've got to stand for the right.
44:08 Now, having said that, you touched on a little bit ago
44:11 those methods of interpretation which are kind of new
44:14 but have gained the ascendency certainly in Protestant circles.
44:17 We've got historicism which is the age-old tried and true way.
44:21 But you're got Preterism now and Futurism...
44:24 revisions of prophetic interpretation.
44:28 How have they impacted this new argument?
44:30 This new Protestant reaching back to the Catholic church?
44:33 Well basically, I wrote a book. the name of the book is
44:37 Futurism's Incredible Journey
44:39 where I trace all of the history of how there has been a shift
44:43 from historicism
44:47 which I call the historical flow method -
44:49 I think it's more precise -
44:51 and how Protestantism has embraced Preterism and Futurism.
44:57 Now maybe I can explain what these mean.
45:01 The Preterists are composed mainly of the Roman Catholic
45:05 church and liberal Protestant churches. Um-hmm.
45:07 Churches that have cast aside the Bible as absolute truth
45:11 and use the historical critical method of interpreting
45:14 scripture. And they believe that the little horn of Daniel -
45:19 Daniel chapter 7- represents a nasty individual called
45:23 Antiochus IV Epiphanes who lived 165 years
45:26 before the birth of Christ.
45:27 So they say Daniel 7 was fulfilled 165 B.C.
45:31 They also say that the beast of Revelation 13
45:35 which receives the deadly wound they say represents Nero
45:38 and Revelation is dealing mostly with the early history of the
45:41 Roman Empire. So that's the Preterists.
45:44 They believe that the antichrist prophecies were fulfilled
45:47 in the past with Antiochus IV Epiphanes
45:50 and the Roman emperors.
45:52 The conservative Protestants which are composed mostly
45:55 of for example Baptists, Pentecostals, charismatic's,
45:58 who believe in the inspiration of the Bible...
46:01 In fact, sometimes they go overboard.
46:03 They talk about verbal inspiration. They call it
46:05 "dictated scripture. " As Adventists we don't believe
46:06 that. But they teach that the antichrist prophecies
46:11 have not been fulfilled yet.
46:13 They will be fulfilled in the Middle East in the future
46:15 after the rapture of the church.
46:17 And you will have this nasty individual who will re-build
46:20 the Jewish temple. And will sit in the temple
46:23 and for the first 3-1/2 years he'll favor the Jews.
46:26 And then after that he's going to build a great big image.
46:29 He's going to command everybody to worship that great big image
46:32 and to receive a tattoo on their foreheads or on the right hand.
46:36 And so these prophecies of Daniel 7 for example
46:40 and Revelation 13- the beast - are all projected
46:42 to the future after the church has supposedly been raptured
46:46 to heaven. So what happens, then, with the interpretation
46:49 of prophecy that the Protestant Reformers gave?
46:52 If you project the fulfillment of the antichrist prophecies
46:55 to the distant past or to the distant future,
46:58 the result is that the system that fulfilled these prophecies
47:02 in the course of Christian history
47:04 is undiscerned.
47:06 Because if people are not looking at the
47:09 historical flow method...
47:10 Like Daniel 7 It's a classical.
47:12 Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, then Rome was divided
47:16 into ten kingdoms. Then you have a little horn that rules
47:18 1,260 years.
47:20 Then the little horn or the beast receives a deadly wound.
47:23 After a while its wound is healed
47:26 and all the world marvels after the beast.
47:28 So you're able to follow the sequence of Bible prophecy
47:31 so easily and so clearly without any gaps.
47:34 No interruptions... no parentheses.
47:37 You know exactly where you are in the course of history.
47:39 And if you look at Daniel 7 you'll find that the dragon
47:43 represents Rome of course.
47:45 The ten horns on the dragon represent the ten kingdoms
47:48 into which the Roman Empire was divided.
47:50 And then when the ten kingdoms appear
47:53 immediately after that you have the little horn that rules
47:55 1,260 years. Yeah. Now what system in the world
47:58 ruled for 1,260 years and came forth from the Roman Empire?
48:02 Came up out of that beast? That's right.
48:04 I mean, you don't have to be Albert Einstein -
48:05 precisely - or King Solomon to understand that.
48:09 It's amazing, though, that some people who will
48:14 say that they believe in verbal inspiration
48:17 and will be so strong on following some teachings
48:22 in the scripture will turn around and not accept
48:26 the seventh-day Sabbath which is part of the 10 Commandments
48:30 written by the very finger of God
48:33 but they'll say: "That's been done away with. "
48:35 It is amazing to me.
48:37 That was verbal inspiration for the Jews -
48:40 yeah - so they say.
48:43 Very good. We talked about
48:45 and you just really gave a great explanation of
48:48 Daniel 2 and 7.
48:53 Does... my question is when you
48:55 look at the historicist method
48:58 of interpretation and you see
49:00 four kingdoms -
49:03 the fourth one strong and mighty and world-wide,
49:08 you see it break and you see the horn come up
49:11 out of the head of that kingdom
49:12 you don't have to look to America or China...
49:15 you look to where that fourth kingdom was.
49:18 Does the Bible have anything to say... We looked at Daniel,
49:21 we move to Revelation 13 now...
49:23 about the career of that little beast,
49:28 little kingdom, rather, little horn is what I'm trying to say?
49:32 Its past, its present, and certainly its future?
49:36 Oh absolutely. In Daniel chapter 7
49:39 the little horn rules for time, times, and the dividing of time
49:42 which is three and a half times. And you have to multiply that,
49:46 of course, by 3-1/2 years times 360 days
49:50 which the Biblical year has. Um-hmm.
49:51 And that's how you get 1,260 days
49:55 but in prophecy days are equal to years. Correct.
49:57 So the little horn rules 1,260 years.
50:00 When you go to Revelation 13 you find that the beast -
50:04 it's not called the little horn, it's called the beast - Um-hmm -
50:07 does the same actions as the little horn.
50:09 It speaks blasphemies against the Most High,
50:11 it persecutes the saints of the Most High,
50:13 and it rules for 42 months. Um-hmm.
50:16 Now 42 months... that's the same as 1,260 days.
50:19 Correct. Why? Because 42 months
50:22 times 30 days each month is 1,260.
50:25 It's the same time period.
50:27 And it's interesting to notice that it says that after
50:30 ruling for 1,260 years this beast receives a deadly wound.
50:36 And that happened in 1798.
50:38 The papacy received a deadly wound at the end of the
50:41 French Revolution when Pope Pius IV was taken prisoner
50:44 and he died in exile. Yes.
50:47 And the prophecy continues saying that this beast's
50:51 deadly wound after a period would be healed.
50:54 And I believe that that's what we're seeing right now.
50:57 In the ecumenical movement we're clearly seeing this
51:00 being fulfilled. Well now in Revelation 13
51:03 you see verses 1 through 10 really points out this power.
51:07 What happens as far as Protestantism being involved?
51:12 Is it mentioned in Revelation 13?
51:15 What power? Protestantism - oh yeah - becoming a part of that
51:18 say in verses 13 to 18?
51:21 Sure. If you continue the historicist sequence -
51:25 um-hmm - you have Babylon, Medo-Persia,
51:29 Greece, Rome, Rome is divided into ten kingdoms,
51:32 then you have the little horn that rules for 1,260 years.
51:35 The little horn receives a deadly wound.
51:38 And when the little horn receives a deadly wound
51:40 or the beast receives a deadly wound - which is the same power,
51:43 in Revelation 13:11 it says
51:47 "Then I saw another beast rise from the earth
51:51 that had two horns like a lamb
51:53 but spoke like a dragon. " Umm.
51:55 And it's interesting... I was sharing this at
51:57 3ABN Camp Meeting last weekend... Yes...
52:01 If you look at the details that are given about that beast
52:05 that rises from the earth, you'll find that everything
52:08 that beast does it does to please the first beast.
52:11 Um-hmm. It's helping its wound to be healed.
52:13 You read for example it does all of its work
52:16 in the presence of the first beast.
52:18 It makes an image of and to the first beast.
52:23 It imposes the mark of the first beast.
52:25 It commands everyone to worship the first beast.
52:29 So everything that this power does
52:32 is to help the first beast recover its power. Yes.
52:36 Now the question is: what global power
52:39 because you're talking about a power that is able to forbid
52:42 buying and selling on a global scale
52:44 and able to give a death decree on a global scale
52:47 according to the description that's given.
52:49 What nation around 1798 when the papacy fell
52:53 was rising at that time? Not in Europe because the nations
52:57 in Europe and Asia arose from the sea.
53:00 This arises from the earth; it has to be in a different place.
53:02 It has to be west of Europe.
53:04 What nation could it be?
53:06 There's no other answer. It has to be the United States
53:09 of America. Yeah. And the only way you get that
53:11 is using the historicist method.
53:13 If you go Preterist, you miss your own country
53:15 and you miss what that country is doing to prop up that first
53:18 beast. And I think that's why that change at 1311 is so very
53:22 very important. And you only get that
53:24 by doing it historicist. You've got to walk
53:27 country to country to country to divided country
53:29 to papacy to west of that country to get that.
53:34 And if you do it any other way you're going to miss
53:35 the United States in prophecy.
53:37 Now one of the things we do see... and I think that
53:39 we clearly can see... that the United States is the power
53:44 that rises up out of the earth.
53:46 However, sometimes people get
53:50 the idea that the United States
53:53 is going to be the only bad government.
53:55 In fact, when I was preaching in Europe - particularly in
53:59 the former Soviet Union -
54:00 they saw that the United States are the bad guys
54:05 and everybody else is... At that time there will be no
54:08 government that's going to be a supportive government
54:12 to those who are believers in truth.
54:15 It may be that our country may be the leader.
54:19 It will be according to Bible prophecy.
54:21 However, I don't think we need to get...
54:24 We have to understand that all government
54:26 will eventually turn against truth.
54:31 All government will eventually turn against God's people.
54:35 There will not be any safe haven in any government
54:39 around the world. You know, many people
54:42 misunderstand what the word papacy means.
54:46 And it's important that we understand the definition
54:48 of the word papacy.
54:50 The word papacy does not refer to the Roman Catholic
54:53 church as a church.
54:55 You know, when we say that the papacy received a deadly wound.
54:58 in 1798 the Roman Catholic church did not disappear.
55:02 It continued with its open churches.
55:04 It continued giving out the sacraments.
55:06 It continued functioning as a church.
55:08 What happened was that the power of the state
55:11 was taken away from the Roman Catholic church.
55:15 The papacy represents the union of church and state
55:19 to get the state to do what the church wants:
55:22 to oppress those who are not in harmony with the church.
55:24 Right. So when it says in Revelation 13
55:27 that the beast from the earth is going to make an image
55:29 of the first beast it means that in the United States
55:33 church and state will be joined together
55:35 to oppress those who are not in harmony
55:37 with what the union of churches want. Right.
55:39 When you look at our country
55:42 it's such a shame that this happens.
55:44 Because I've done a lot of study recently
55:47 about the revolution
55:51 of our country against - you know - Great Britain
55:56 and becoming independent.
55:58 In fact, I was in Israel not long ago and there was a...
56:00 a British man there at the tomb,
56:04 at Cordon's Tomb.
56:06 And we were there on Thanksgiving
56:09 and he said: "You know we have a different day for Thanksgiving
56:14 in Britain. " And I said: "What's that? "
56:16 He said: "July 4. "
56:18 He said: "That's when we got rid of a rebellious
56:20 group of people. "
56:22 Well listen, we're going to go to break here in a few minutes
56:24 but we want you to be calling your friends
56:27 telling them to check in because we have a lot more
56:30 to look at in the second half of this program.
56:34 And also if you happen to have any questions
56:37 for those of you that are in our studio audience...
56:39 Don't think we are set up tonight to handle
56:42 questions by phone, but if those of you in the studio
56:45 audience have any questions please write them on a piece
56:48 of paper if you have a piece of paper
56:50 and pass them up to us
56:52 and we'll do our best to handle some of those
56:54 in the second part of this discussion.
56:58 All rightie. Our call center is open
57:00 at 3ABN and here at Secrets Unsealed.
57:03 The numbers or the contact points at 3ABN are
57:06 618-627-4651 should you want our free offer
57:11 or freeoffer@3abn. org
57:14 and the brethren will put the contact number
57:16 for Secrets Unsealed. I don't have that in my head.
57:19 Up for me? It's 559... I've got it written down...
57:28 That's again our free offer.
57:29 This is an important DVD - a timely DVD -
57:32 a teaching by Pastor Stephen Bohr.
57:34 It would be our privilege and pleasure to send that
57:37 to you. Pastor, when we return
57:38 we know that next year the pope is going to be addressing
57:41 a joint session of Congress.
57:43 I want you to wrestle with that and give us the significance
57:45 of that. Get a drink of water; refresh yourself.
57:47 We will be back in just 2 minutes
57:49 and 2 seconds. We'll see you then.