Participants: Danny Shelton (Host), Jim Gilley (Host), Doug Batchelor, Jay Gallimore, Stephen Bohr
Series Code: NLL
Program Code: NLL14703B
00:12 Well, welcome back
00:13 and we're happy that you could join us.
00:15 You know, I just want... one more time...
00:17 wanted to say how much I appreciate
00:19 the preparatory work that C.A. Murray did
00:22 on this Program tonight.
00:24 He helped put the finishing touches
00:27 and in cooperation with our guests
00:30 for the Survey that went out...
00:32 has been so valuable in our discussion
00:35 and we still want you to have an opportunity to respond
00:38 and if you'll give us a call... you can call that number
00:42 it should be on your screen right now
00:48 and just follow the prompts there...
00:51 it will tell you how to respond, or, go to the website,
00:55 and the website is:
00:58 ordinationsurvey. com
01:01 that also is on the bottom third of your screen.
01:05 Danny, I'm... I'm learning a lot tonight.
01:08 Oh, me too, absolutely, and we want you to be a part of it
01:12 and it hit me a little earlier,
01:14 while these Surveys are great and it shows 75% say "No"
01:21 or 25% say "Yes"
01:22 all of that is good information
01:24 but still yet, the bottom line is,
01:27 "What does the Bible say?"
01:29 So, this is not about politics but it is interesting to hear
01:33 what members around the world church have to say
01:37 on this topic... there has been a lot said
01:40 and I don't like to use the word "sides" but...
01:44 in our humanness, sometimes we... there is sides
01:47 and so, we get together... we meet...
01:49 we try to talk together... communicate together...
01:52 to... to... where there's division...
01:54 to put that aside and come together for truth
01:57 but the fact is, what we're looking at tonight
02:00 and what we've been praying for is that with God...
02:03 would give us discernment... would give us truth...
02:06 as a church... as a people...
02:07 not just a lay member or leadership...
02:09 all of us...
02:10 and that's why we've asked these gentlemen tonight,
02:12 because it seems like,
02:14 sometimes, there's more information coming
02:16 from other sides than there are from... from...
02:19 from this side of it and so, I think,
02:21 we want to just make sure that...
02:23 that we're doing... according to the Bible
02:26 and really understanding this topic of women's ordination
02:30 but one thing I do want to say for the future here,
02:34 you guys sound like... and we may have to talk this up
02:37 and I'm going to be here...
02:38 because I've done a lot of interviews
02:40 and I listened to folks at home...
02:42 I've heard two or three hints of...
02:43 that women's ordination has something to do...
02:47 either now or down the road with things even... such as
02:50 homosexual marriages...
02:53 so, I've heard a few hints of that...
02:55 so you may be... somebody's listening at home...
02:57 they're saying, "I think, Doug, you're taking that too far"
03:00 I've already heard a couple of things
03:01 so, in this conversation, we want to understand
03:04 when we go to Step 1, what happens?
03:07 Step 2 and Step 3... we have to look down the road a ways
03:11 so, tonight, call your friends,
03:12 call your enemies, call everybody you know,
03:14 tell them to tune in to 3ABN right now
03:16 and you too can be a part of this
03:18 by calling the number that's on the screen
03:21 to be a part of this Survey.
03:23 All right, that's very good.
03:26 Now, one of the things that we talked about
03:28 is... looking at unity...
03:29 the spirit of unity... is not what the Bible teaches...
03:35 you see, there were unified at the Tower of Babel...
03:38 they were unified when they crucified Christ...
03:41 you can have unity in the wrong direction
03:44 but we're talking about the unity of the spirit
03:47 not the "spirit of unity"
03:50 and this is a very important difference
03:54 and we must be led by the spirit of God
03:57 and not by...
03:59 led... by just unifying on a question or a point.
04:03 Well, let's get back and Doug, you've got some figures,
04:06 I think, from the Survey that's going on right now...
04:09 that people are responding in.
04:11 Yeah, and I need to thank the...
04:12 the Technicians that are behind the curtain,
04:14 they showed me how to just pull this up on my iPad
04:17 but for those that are calling that number that you just gave,
04:20 they're doing the Survey, right now,
04:21 about 200 have called in...
04:24 and the results look even stronger than the first one.
04:28 Regarding the question, "Should only men be ordained?"
04:31 Here it says, 91% say, "Yes. "
04:35 Should women be ordained as Elders?
04:38 91% here are saying, "No. "
04:41 And I got a witness here...
04:42 Pastor Bohr is looking at the pie chart with me,
04:45 "We need more ministry opportunities for women. "
04:48 And 65% are saying, "Yes. "
04:50 "If women's ordination is approved,
04:53 will it help contribute to same-sex marriage?"
04:56 87% are saying, "Yes"
04:59 and that was your... you're correct...
05:00 people are concerned... there's a connection.
05:01 And... don't know that I'll read through them all...
05:05 but this is actually a live report
05:07 that's changing as I sit here.
05:08 Pastor Jay, what do you think about that?
05:10 Well, I think, it demonstrates
05:13 that people that are listening are saying,
05:14 "What does the Bible say?"
05:16 You know, at the end of that,
05:17 you just mentioned a very good thing, Brother Jim,
05:19 about unity...
05:20 the church can never afford to go to political decisions
05:25 on something like this...
05:27 what we must do is... make decisions based on Scripture
05:29 and that's going to run against culture,
05:32 we keep the Sabbath not because it's culturally easy
05:36 but we do that because it's Scriptural
05:38 and... we've never believed
05:40 that the Bible did not contain truth
05:44 or that truth is culturally conditioned...
05:46 no, truth is always truth...
05:48 and it's always going to be truth
05:50 so, yeah, we've got to make decisions based on Scripture
05:54 not political decisions.
05:56 Jim: That's right.
05:57 Stephen: You know I... I would like to hear from Doug,
05:59 I know Doug has done a lot of research
06:02 into one step leading to another...
06:06 and so, Doug, could you share some of those things with us
06:09 about one step leading to the next?
06:12 Well, I'll do this just from memory,
06:15 but anyone can actually find the results of this,
06:18 you can see a pattern in history...
06:21 we're not the first church that's grappling with this issue
06:25 and, all you have to do is read the headlines
06:28 and I think we saw the Anglican Church
06:30 just voted to approve the ordination of homosexuals
06:35 and there's a battle within the Methodist Church.
06:38 Now, the American Methodist Church... years ago...
06:41 began ordaining Gay Clergy
06:46 and solemnizing same-sex marriages,
06:50 but, the Baptist Church, on the other hand,
06:54 they started doing that...
06:55 and then they had a very important Convention
06:57 and they really went into a deep Bible Study...
06:59 they overturned it...
07:01 and the thing that we see is...
07:04 with the Presbyterian Church,
07:07 the American Presbyterian Church,
07:08 the Lutheran Church, the Episcopalian Church,
07:11 and many others I could mention,
07:13 it seemed like, in every case,
07:14 a few important things happened,
07:16 when they got to the point where they said,
07:19 "For the sake of political correctness or culture...
07:21 whatever the reasons might be,
07:23 we need to now treat ordination
07:25 as though there's no difference between men and women,
07:27 that... and all those cases, I just mentions,
07:31 ultimately led to recognizing same-sex marriage
07:34 but also, almost as interesting...
07:37 they advocated this... saying, "This is going to be the panacea
07:41 for great evangelism,
07:42 if we could just start empowering women as pastors,
07:45 the gospel will go to the world. "
07:47 But, in all those churches I just mentioned,
07:49 their membership and evangelism dropped off a cliff,
07:53 in the case of the Presbyterian Church,
07:55 in 40 years... 50% loss...
07:58 from over 4 million to just under 2 million...
08:00 and so, the idea that this is just going to help great growth,
08:04 and many churches, even in the Methodist Church,
08:07 whole congregations are leaving the Denomination...
08:10 as the Denomination is making moves away from the Bible,
08:14 they're saying,
08:16 "We're going to find another church that follows the Bible. "
08:17 So, I think the best key for evangelism,
08:20 just based on some of these patterns is...
08:22 stick with the Scriptures... and do it Jesus' way.
08:25 And, you know, Doug, that shows what happens
08:28 when Leadership... Church Leadership...
08:31 doesn't follow Scripture...
08:33 the result... they may get their way
08:36 but there are... there's consequences.
08:37 I want to come back to this thing just for a moment,
08:42 many people who are proponents of ordaining women...
08:46 very fine people... many of them...
08:47 and we'll tell you
08:49 that they're certainly against homosexual marriage,
08:51 so, what is the connection here?
08:56 It's a word we often call, "Hermeneutics... "
08:58 it's another long word... really...
09:01 simply means, "Methods of Bible Study. "
09:04 How is it that the methods of Bible Study,
09:07 end up... that allow...
09:11 that will allow people to ordain women to the office
09:15 of the ministry or elder,
09:20 how does that Hermeneutic or that method of Bible Study
09:23 open the door to homosexual marriage?
09:26 That's the real issue here.
09:28 Pastor Steve, you got your Black Belt on that subject,
09:31 go ahead.
09:33 Well, you know,
09:34 I firmly believe that those who favor women's ordination
09:39 in the Adventist Church...
09:41 they do not see the implications.
09:44 You know, they don't see that their "Hermeneutical Methods"
09:48 or methods of interpretation will lead to the next step.
09:51 I believe, they're sincere, they love the Lord,
09:53 but they don't see, you know,
09:56 what has already been shown in other churches.
09:58 Let me just give you a couple of examples
10:02 of arguments that I use
10:04 by those who favor women's ordination,
10:06 who also favor Gay pastors and Gay marriage.
10:10 Galatians 3:28 is used by both groups...
10:14 "There is neither male nor female"
10:16 well, the argument is,
10:18 if there's neither male nor female,
10:19 we can ordain men and women,
10:21 Homosexual Lobby says, "If there's no male nor female,
10:25 you know, we can have Gay marriage and Gay pastors. "
10:29 So, that's one.
10:31 Another argument which appears very frequently
10:34 is the matter of justice and mercy...
10:37 for both groups, justice and mercy...
10:40 and in both groups, there's tremendous pressure
10:44 against those who oppose
10:47 the desire for women's ordination or for Gay marriage,
10:51 in fact, those who are opposed...
10:52 that are called, "Fundamentalists"
10:54 or "Extremists"
10:55 and that's used as a means of pressuring individuals
11:00 into accepting a view
11:02 that I don't believe is found in the Bible.
11:03 Well, and with the kids, we call it "Peer Pressure. "
11:06 Right... and there's a lot of peers in the work too.
11:09 If we use the approach,
11:12 "Hermeneutic principle of Bible Study"
11:15 that we are to wear special glasses when we read the Bible
11:19 and the "glasses" are...
11:20 you interpret the Bible through culture.
11:22 If we approach the Bible that way,
11:24 I think we're soon going to find that
11:27 I mean, let's admit it,
11:29 our church practice is foot washing...
11:30 we have a command of Jesus in John 13 about that
11:33 but, if it wasn't for the Bible, how many people in North America
11:37 traditionally wash the feet of their company?
11:39 And we're doing that purely because Jesus commanded it
11:43 when we celebrate the Lord's Supper,
11:44 so... and... if we're keeping the seventh-day Sabbath,
11:49 but if our culture really recognizes Sunday
11:51 as the most convenient day with work schedules and so forth
11:55 and... wouldn't it be more culturally relevant
11:59 to say, "Let's keep the popular day... "
12:02 the whole Bible turns into...
12:05 the teachings kind of turn into a house of cards and implode.
12:09 I was in a meeting and a person was making a presentation...
12:12 a very find person...
12:14 and the person said, "Well, you know what?
12:17 We have one hermeneutic for the Sabbath
12:20 and the state of the dead,
12:21 and we have another hermeneutic for the ordination issue... "
12:26 and that really turned on my caution lights and red lights
12:32 and I said to myself,
12:33 "What are we going to say to our Sunday-keeping friends?"
12:35 We say, "You know what?
12:36 We have this hermeneutic for... for the Sabbath
12:39 but we've got a different method of Bible Study
12:41 to arrive at the ordination of women,
12:43 my... my understanding is...
12:45 you'd better keep that hermeneutic the same,
12:48 we can't just pick and choose or make up new ones,
12:50 we all believe in principles in Scripture
12:53 and understand how that works
12:54 but principles do not undo or overthrow
12:57 the plain teachings of Scripture
12:59 and really, I don't think that Paul...
13:02 the Apostle Paul is very fuzzy here about this whole thing,
13:08 he says, "I do not allow a woman to exercise authority over man
13:13 and in an ecclesiastical family setting,
13:17 and then he goes right into the ordination of... of the Elder
13:23 and he says, "It has to be a husband of one wife... "
13:25 well, some people try to separate that out
13:28 and they say, "Well, you know,
13:30 the woman there could still be the Elder. "
13:33 If Paul allows no woman to exercise authority over the man,
13:38 and then you ordain her as an Elder
13:41 and her husband is part of the congregation,
13:43 then, you know, it makes a real interesting dynamic.
13:46 You know, and sometimes what happens is,
13:50 those who favor "mudified" hermeneutic
13:54 for the Adventist Church
13:56 when it comes to the ordination of women,
13:57 will take cases in Scripture... like, for example, the veil...
14:01 they say, "Well, you know,
14:03 that passage doesn't apply to us today... "
14:06 where Paul says that the woman should wear the veil
14:08 in the worship service because women don't wear veils,
14:11 but what they fail to say is that
14:16 the veil is the way in which
14:19 you manifest the principle in the culture
14:22 let me give you an example,
14:24 if you have a pile of books
14:26 and by-the-way, this is a real example
14:28 from my own experience,
14:29 I went to somebody's house and... it was an Adventist...
14:33 and he had a pile of books
14:35 and the Bible was at the bottom of all of the books
14:38 so I looked at him and I said,
14:40 "Listen, don't you know that the Bible is supposed to be
14:43 on top of all of the books... not in the bottom?"
14:45 He says, "It depends how you look at it"
14:47 he says, "You believe that it's on top
14:50 because the Bible is above everything,
14:52 but I put it on the bottom
14:54 because it's the foundation of everything. "
14:56 And so, the question is, "Who is right?"
14:58 Both are right... the principle is reverence for Scripture,
15:03 the way in which it is expressed is different
15:06 and the same thing with meat offered to idols
15:10 if you want... for Biblical example...
15:11 you know, 1 Corinthians chapter 8
15:14 you know, that there were the weak in the church
15:16 who were aggravated because church members were going
15:19 and they were buying meat offered to idols
15:21 and they were eating it.
15:23 Well, the Apostle Paul says, "That doesn't contaminate you,
15:26 but if you see that your weaker brother
15:28 is offended by it, don't do it. "
15:30 Now, today we don't buy meat that was offered to idols
15:34 in supermarkets... but does that principle apply?
15:37 The principle of love for your brother still applies
15:40 even though the way in which the principle is expressed,
15:43 is different.
15:45 Jay: Very nice... please...
15:47 Yeah, right along with that, I think we all know,
15:49 you can go to some churches where if you walk in barefoot,
15:51 they're going to think it's disrespectful
15:53 and then there are parts of the world
15:54 where, if you walk in with your shoes on,
15:56 they're going to think it's disrespectful
15:58 and those are just cultural things... the principle is,
16:00 respect in your attire... in worship.
16:03 And another thing that is used is the "holy kiss... "
16:06 we say, "We don't give holy kisses... "
16:08 Well, just go to Cuba
16:09 and you'll see all the holy kisses you get from the women.
16:11 Doug: Or Argentina...
16:13 Stephen: Or Argentina too... that's right.
16:15 Jay: And in this case, the principle is,
16:17 that God, by His own divine orders,
16:19 set the man to be the leader of his family and the church
16:23 we thought we raised this issue a while ago
16:25 and I think we got to go back to it
16:27 and that's the "priesthood of all believers"
16:28 so we're talking about Galatians 3:28,
16:29 but some people say,
16:31 "Well, with the priesthood of all believers...
16:32 so we can ordain anybody that we want. "
16:35 Well, where did that whole
16:36 concept in the New Testament come from
16:39 of the priesthood of all believers?
16:43 Well, Paul touched on it, I'm sure that
16:45 you folks could elaborate better but...
16:48 in the Bible there's a... in the New Testament time,
16:51 when the veil was rent from top to bottom,
16:54 with Christ's crucifixion, we know that...
16:58 that showed the sacrificial system was done away with,
17:00 it's also interesting... not only was the veil rent,
17:03 but, the High Priest rent his garments that day too...
17:07 and Jesus now said,
17:10 "Destroy this temple and in three days I'll raise it up"
17:12 speaking of His body or the Church...
17:14 Paul said, "Christ is the cornerstone...
17:16 we are built up... "
17:18 "We are living stones... " Peter said,
17:19 "built up to our spiritual house"
17:21 and so, there is, in a sense, this spiritual body of Christ...
17:25 spiritual temple and we are all to make atonement
17:30 in bringing others to Christ...
17:32 in this, you know, spiritual sense,
17:34 but when Paul said...
17:37 I'm sorry... but when Peter says,
17:38 that you are a holy nation... a royal priesthood...
17:41 he's quoting Moses...
17:43 that they were to be a nation of kings and priests...
17:46 so Peter is quoting Moses and back in Moses' day,
17:48 they were... the whole nation was to be a nation of priests
17:51 but there was still a distinction of roles
17:53 between the men and women in the priesthood.
17:55 And it's interesting...
17:56 not only were the priests male but the kings too
18:00 so, God says to Israel,
18:02 "You know, you are a royal priesthood"
18:04 but even though all of them were a royal priesthood,
18:08 males were the kings and males were the priests
18:12 and by-the-way,
18:13 Peter quotes this passage from the Old Testament,
18:17 in 1st Peter chapter 2 and verses 9 and 10,
18:20 he says, "But you are a chosen generation,
18:23 a royal priesthood, a holy nation... "
18:26 His own special people,
18:28 and then it explains that you may proclaim
18:31 the praises of Him who called you out of darkness
18:33 into His marvelous light.
18:34 All Christians are called upon to proclaim
18:37 the marvelous light of the gospel...
18:39 in the Old Testament, even though Israel were
18:42 priests and kings, all of them...
18:44 there were only... there was a group that was male...
18:48 that were the priests and the kings
18:50 and so, in the New Testament,
18:52 even though all are supposed to be kings and priests,
18:55 God has reserved a specific role of pastor or elder
18:59 to the male gender.
19:01 So what you're saying is
19:02 that God didn't change His principles,
19:04 the church is now the new Israel...
19:06 we... I don't think anybody
19:08 really disagrees with that around here...
19:09 it's the New Israel...
19:11 and so His principles of leadership
19:13 follow right into the New Testament...
19:15 just as it did in the Old.
19:16 What we'd like to do is get our Viewers...
19:18 you can weigh in on this... the number...
19:20 we'll put it up on the screen that you can call
19:23 and Doug Batchelor is actually receiving
19:24 some of the results of a Survey
19:26 and if you would like to take it...
19:28 and I can't see the number from here
19:30 but you can, I'm sure, at home...
19:32 you got it Jim...
19:41 I'm sitting here listening to... to all of you guys...
19:44 For those who are overseas, there's a website...
19:46 it is simply, ordinationsurvey. com
19:50 so everyone in the world watching can...
19:52 Okay, this I'm listening to you all speak
19:54 and it kind of reminds me...
19:56 and I'm going to come from the Layman's standpoint
19:58 but... kind of reminds me of... of conversations that I've had
20:03 and most of us as Seventh-day Adventists have had
20:06 with our friends who are Christians
20:08 of other Denominations
20:09 who go to church on Sunday, for instance,
20:11 there is always a Scripture or two
20:13 that they bring up about the first day
20:15 but when we really look at the overwhelming evidence...
20:18 and someone told me this years ago,
20:20 Richard Bland from United Prison Ministries said,
20:23 "When I go into prisons...
20:25 maybe a lot of you folk don't realize it
20:27 but there are people right here in the United States of America
20:29 that never heard of the name of Jesus...
20:32 except in a cursing form...
20:34 but when we give them a Bible, we come back...
20:37 they always say, 'Why do people go to church on Sunday?'"
20:40 Because no one has ever been there to say,
20:43 you know...
20:45 they're just reading the Bible for what it says,
20:48 Seventh-day Sabbath... but because of culture...
20:52 because of generation after generation...
20:55 people keep Sunday...
20:57 and so, I... even... one time on the air...
21:00 people were calling... and we were taking live calls
21:03 and someone said,
21:04 "Well, I know that the Sabbath has been changed"
21:07 so I said, "Okay, for any of you who can show from the Bible
21:10 that the Sabbath has been changed...
21:12 we'll give you a million dollars. "
21:13 Now, I said, "You don't... from Saturday to Sunday...
21:16 so, you don't have to hurry, just call your pastor
21:19 and have him give you those Scriptures and call back. "
21:22 Well, as you can imagine... no one really did
21:24 but this kind of reminds me of that kind of conversation...
21:27 only now... sometimes we as Adventists
21:30 consider ourselves "Thinkers"
21:31 and Jim said, "To be an Adventist,
21:32 you have to be a little different
21:34 because you have to be willing to stand up
21:36 against those around you...
21:38 a lot of times you're in the minority group... "
21:41 but this sounds to me like, I've just...
21:43 this conversation of us having it within the church...
21:47 my question, I guess, is... "Why?"
21:49 Because it seems like, the Bible...
21:52 the overwhelming truth is there,
21:54 but there's some reason that we're still...
21:58 so many people wanting to do this
22:00 and I think, you're talking about culture
22:02 and the times in which we're living...
22:04 rather... we've taken our eyes, maybe, off the Word of God...
22:08 and trying to please those around us.
22:12 You know, Danny,
22:13 let me just add to what you're saying here...
22:15 this is one of the things that our Survey has shown...
22:19 we said, "Well, you don't vote something"
22:21 no you don't...
22:23 but this Survey shows that our people in the pew
22:26 understand truth...
22:28 they understand what the Bible says...
22:30 there may be some people that are swayed somehow
22:34 by culture and so forth...
22:36 or by the political environment but for the most part,
22:40 our people have said,
22:42 "This is a 'Thus saith the Lord... '
22:44 I know what God says in His Word... "
22:46 and they are just as sure about what God says in His Word
22:50 on this subject as they are on the Sabbath...
22:53 or the state of the dead...
22:55 and we need to listen
22:58 to "Brother and Sister Common Adventist Christian"
23:01 because they are Bible Students,
23:03 they study their Sabbath School Lesson every week,
23:05 and I will tell you, after five years,
23:07 if you study your Sabbath School Lesson
23:10 every single week,
23:12 after five years,
23:13 it's like a college education as far as Theology is concerned,
23:17 you've learned so much...
23:18 but, you know, if you read the "Spirit of Prophecy Helps"
23:21 and you really get into that Sabbath School Lesson,
23:25 I've seen it change the intellectual ability... even...
23:29 of people who... I thought were very ordinary...
23:32 and they've become profound in their study of God's Word,
23:37 so, our people do understand
23:39 and Leadership needs to be listening to the people
23:41 in this case... instead of vice versa.
23:44 I think, this problem could be resolved very easily
23:47 with the technology that we have...
23:49 just do this Survey with every person... in every church
23:56 of the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination...
23:58 that's the most democratic way of doing it
24:00 and I'll bet you anything...
24:02 that I can tell you what the results are going to be.
24:05 One of the problems, I think, we have though...
24:08 as I've travelled... you know I travel a lot to Latin America,
24:12 is... people are not well informed on all of these issues
24:17 because they haven't studied them out...
24:19 basically, it runs something like this,
24:22 "Do you believe that men and women are equal?"
24:25 And, I say, "Yes. "
24:27 "So, why can't men and women be pastors?"
24:31 That's the extent of the knowledge of many...
24:34 and that's the reason why they need to be informed
24:37 but, unfortunately...
24:38 That's like saying,
24:39 "What difference does it make what day you keep...
24:41 just one in seven will do... " right?
24:44 But unfortunately, Danny,
24:45 the publicity has been one-sided on this...
24:49 and I appreciate 3ABN being willing to present
24:53 the other side of the issue
24:54 because most of the Denominational media
24:58 that is... the Union Papers and the other outlets
25:03 have presented only one side, in fact, they openly said,
25:07 "We're only presenting one side... "
25:08 And so, it's necessary to get this information out
25:12 to everyone... so that they can look at the other side.
25:15 Let's get back to something now...
25:17 that was great... I appreciate the exchange...
25:19 it was excellent...
25:20 let's get back to something on this office of Spiritual Gifts
25:23 for just a moment,
25:24 people have said, I think,
25:27 Doug, you may have mentioned it earlier...
25:28 some people say, "Well, you know,
25:29 Ellen White had the prophetic gift so why wasn't she ordained,
25:33 isn't it okay, then, to ordain women?
25:35 We have a woman prophet in this church
25:37 who had the prophetic gift. "
25:40 But, there is a difference,
25:42 everybody could have spiritual gifts...
25:45 men, women, children... whoever God wanted to give it to
25:49 because He's giving those gifts,
25:51 but, the "office" is not a gift,
25:53 that's something that's set aside
25:55 to lead the church... to give leadership to the church
25:58 just like you have for the home,
26:00 any of you guys want to weigh in on that?
26:02 Well, one thing you brought up, I think is very important
26:05 is... we do, of course, as Seventh-day Adventists believe
26:09 in the inspiration that God called Ellen White...
26:11 that He inspired her... that He led her...
26:14 that's not the first time in Biblical history
26:16 from Old and New Testament... there were men and women
26:19 that God spoke to in a supernatural way.
26:21 One of the urban myths
26:25 that was going through our Denomination
26:26 is that... there was at one time,
26:28 some secret ordination service for Ellen White,
26:30 and one thing that we were happy... came out very clearly
26:34 when we were at the Ordination Meeting,
26:36 is, they went through all of the history
26:38 and there was no record
26:39 that there was ever any ordination service...
26:41 Ellen White never claimed to be, no one else ever claimed...
26:44 never... contemporaries...
26:46 that she had been ordained as a pastor.
26:49 Which is amazing when you think about it,
26:52 she had a huge amount of influence,
26:53 of course, in the Church
26:55 but she was never elected to any office,
26:58 never had any Overseer roles...
27:00 even subjected herself to the brethren
27:02 who wanted her to go to Australia
27:04 and she didn't...
27:05 wasn't sure that it was totally the right thing to do
27:07 but she went and... why?
27:09 Because she respected the people that were...
27:11 that God had set aside to give the Leadership of the Church.
27:14 And Prophets... many times... gave counsel to Leaders
27:19 but the Leaders could decide to follow the counsel or not.
27:23 Actually, the Prophets were Counselors to the Leaders...
27:26 the Prophets were not the Leaders...
27:28 they counseled the Leaders on what to do
27:30 but then the Leader decided
27:31 whether they were going to do it or not.
27:33 So, they were God's... directly... God's spokesmen...
27:36 between God and the Leader...
27:38 There's another thing that we hear sometimes,
27:40 we hear that the Bible has a trajectory
27:43 and the trajectory over time does away with slavery...
27:47 it throws out polygamy... so, what do you think about that?
27:54 Well, when I think "trajectory" I'm a pilot...
27:57 and, you know, rockets have a trajectory...
28:01 it's usually some kind of an arc...
28:02 when you're coming in for a landing,
28:04 you want to set up for your approach...
28:06 and it's usually a gradual descent
28:09 or a climb out...
28:11 but what we see historically is that,
28:14 from the time of Adam,
28:16 up until... about a 100 years ago,
28:18 now, for our church, it was more in the '60s...
28:20 but for some churches, it was a little further back,
28:23 that there was almost a universal understanding
28:26 that there's these Biblical distinctions
28:28 and I like to read a lot of the Commentators...
28:30 and I read Spurgeon and Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke
28:33 and John Gill and none of them ever questioned
28:37 how to interpret these Bible verses... until lately...
28:40 and yet, people are saying,
28:42 "But there's been this growth...
28:43 there's been this trajectory of understanding
28:45 that has gradually brought us to this point... "
28:48 but I just don't see historically or Biblically
28:51 anything gradual has happened, it's been rather sudden.
28:54 But actually the early Adventists were
28:56 abolitionists... they hated slavery...
28:59 and they never mixed the two up...
29:01 they didn't see a problem... they only ordained the men...
29:04 I think the truth is
29:05 that there is a trajectory in Scripture
29:08 that overthrows polygamy and slavery
29:10 but polygamy and slavery came in after the fall...
29:13 not before the fall...
29:15 there's no trajectory to overthrow what God created
29:18 and He called, "Good... "
29:19 and as He created male and female
29:22 and gave them their roles... and that's good...
29:24 and Paul roots the ordination of Elders
29:27 in that divine order before the fall.
29:30 As I read the evangelical literature on Galatians 3:28,
29:36 for example,
29:37 those who were in favor of women's ordination...
29:40 they say, "Well, there's even a trajectory in the New Testament"
29:43 because you have, 1st Timothy chapter 3
29:48 and Titus chapter 1 where it says
29:50 that the Elder should be the husband of one wife,
29:52 but they say... when Paul wrote Galatians...
29:55 "there's neither male nor female... "
29:57 he had grown in the trajectory...
29:58 the only problem with that argument
30:00 is that Galatians was written long before 1st and 2nd Timothy
30:05 and so, if anything, the Apostle Paul
30:07 changed from being egalitarian
30:10 to the man occupying the positon of leadership in the church.
30:14 You know, doesn't it always worry you
30:17 when people make Paul at war with himself
30:19 or the Holy Spirit at war with himself...
30:21 you know, he's not going to say in one place
30:23 that I do not allow woman to exercise authority over man
30:26 in these ecclesiastical things that we talked about,
30:30 or in the home,
30:31 but... and then turn around and say,
30:34 "No, he didn't really mean what he said in Galatians 3:28"
30:37 Paul is not at war with himself and neither is the Holy Spirit
30:40 and... so... just to throw these out
30:43 as some kind of a cultural thing...
30:45 I think, misses the whole point.
30:47 I just wanted to mention something about
30:49 what you were talking about...
30:51 the difference between a Spiritual Gift
30:53 and a Church Office...
30:54 a Church Office... is not given to new believers.
31:00 The Apostle Paul clearly says
31:03 that a neophyte... which is a new believer
31:08 cannot be an Elder of the Church...
31:10 they have to have a track record,
31:13 however, Spiritual Gift is given at the moment of baptism,
31:17 it has nothing to do with... with maturity in the faith...
31:21 and so, that shows clearly
31:24 that there is a distinction between a Spiritual Gift
31:26 that is given at the moment of baptism
31:28 and a church office that is given after a period...
31:33 when the person has a proven track record
31:35 that they are able to fill that position.
31:38 That's very good,
31:40 I had not seen that before, it's excellent.
31:41 You know, that raised something
31:42 that you brought up just a moment ago,
31:44 there is a statement where Ellen White talks about...
31:48 that women should be pastors of the flock...
31:50 and that's often been used...
31:52 I've had some friends that said, "Wow! I never saw that before"
31:57 and, of course, this is one statement out of 100s of 1,000s
32:01 but she's using the word, "Pastor" there
32:03 in sort of the classical sense
32:06 of someone who helps shepherds' sheep...
32:08 I mean, Jacob... when he found Rachel...
32:10 she was pastoring her father's sheep
32:12 as was Moses... when he found the daughters of Jethro...
32:16 they were pastoring their father's sheep
32:17 and so, women are also involved in helping pastor the flock...
32:21 feed the sheep...
32:22 that's a completely different use
32:25 than when she talks about women being ordained...
32:27 as ordained ministers or pastors.
32:29 The office of the Elder...
32:32 we mix those terms up now-a-days quite a bit...
32:34 we mix up the term Pastor and Elder back and forth...
32:38 but the Elder was the presiding officer...
32:41 he was the overseer of the Church...
32:43 he was the designated Leader of the Church
32:47 but... and she said that by-the-way in the context of...
32:51 canvassing... and...
32:53 and there are nurturing...
32:56 beautiful nurturing skills and gifts that God gives to women
33:00 and we need those skills,
33:01 we need women in the church,
33:03 we need them involved in the church
33:05 and, in fact,
33:06 I don't think we've opened up enough things for women to do,
33:08 there are many offices that... that are able to hold...
33:13 and... I mean, I have people in my office,
33:16 our Superintendent of Education is a lady...
33:19 has wonderful gifts of administration
33:22 but God reserves that one office for men
33:26 because He's consistent in His divine order
33:29 through the Old Testament, Creation and His Church.
33:32 We don't want to be seen as the "Party of No. "
33:36 Well, I think the issue is, we want to be pro-Scripture,
33:40 that's the real issue here and...
33:43 and God loves His daughters...
33:45 as I said earlier, as much as He loves His sons
33:47 and He's got a lot for them to do.
33:49 Well, let me ask you... let me ask...
33:51 I think I'm probably safe, most of us would say
33:54 that our mothers had more influence on us than anyone
33:58 and there is a quote by, I think it was John Maxwell
34:03 who said,
34:04 "Leadership is influence... nothing less... nothing more"
34:09 so God gave women a fantastic leadership opportunity
34:15 because they're the closest to their kids,
34:17 I mean, I love my kids and they'll call me
34:19 but, you know who they'll call first,
34:21 even though that they're brawn...
34:23 they call "Mama"
34:24 and that's because God put her in that position
34:27 to be closest to them
34:29 and to have the most influence on them.
34:30 Especially if they want permission, they call Mom first,
34:33 that is what I've found.
34:36 Maybe I can just read three statements
34:38 that are frequently misinterpreted
34:41 from Ellen White...
34:42 the first one is the one that was referred to...
34:45 "It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God
34:47 that prepares workers, both men and women,
34:50 to become pastors to the flock of God. "
34:52 The fact is that, technically speaking,
34:55 according to the New Testament, "Pastor" is a Spiritual Gift...
34:59 but we use it differently today in the sense of "Minister"
35:03 we've changed the meaning of the word
35:04 as we use it today...
35:05 so, she's saying that men and women should be shepherds
35:09 because the word "Pastor" means shepherd.
35:12 In Spanish, there's only one word... "Pastor"
35:14 you should know that, you have Hispanic pastors
35:16 in your Conference,
35:17 the second one is,
35:19 "The primary object of our college
35:22 was to afford young men an opportunity
35:24 to study for the ministry and to prepare
35:27 young persons of both sexes
35:30 to become workers in the various branches of the cause"
35:33 but you notice that she speaks, first of all,
35:37 about young men...
35:38 an opportunity to study for the ministry...
35:40 and then she says,
35:42 "And to prepare young persons of both sexes
35:45 to become workers in the various branches of the cause. "
35:48 So, she's... she's saying... there's a role for Ministers...
35:51 and then there's a role for both men and women.
35:54 Third one, "Those who enter the missionary field
35:57 should be men and women who walk and talk with God"
36:02 And then she says, "Those who stand as Ministers
36:06 in the sacred desk,
36:07 should be men of blameless reputation. "
36:10 So, she's making a distinction between men and women
36:13 in this statement, "who walk and talk with God"
36:17 and Ministers who are men who stand at the sacred desk.
36:20 She makes a difference between that
36:22 Elder... Office of the Elder...
36:24 and the fact that everybody needs to be involved in Ministry
36:26 including our sisters
36:28 and our wives and our daughters in Christ.
36:32 You know, in the book along the lines with that...
36:35 I recommend anybody that reads the book,
36:38 Acts of the Apostles...
36:39 if they read the chapter where she talks about
36:42 the ordaining... the ordination...
36:46 oh, well, that's actually "Desire of Ages"
36:48 I'm talking about... about Paul and Barnabas...
36:50 and that would be page 95... one sentence in there...
36:53 it says, "In the work of setting things in order
36:57 in all the churches and ordaining suitable men
37:00 to act as officers and apostles
37:03 held to the highest standards of leadership
37:06 outlined in the Old Testament Scriptures. "
37:08 Well, what we find in the Old Testament Scriptures
37:10 it said, "Appoint the sons of Aaron. "
37:12 And so, she's saying that this was the order
37:15 that they were to follow for the New Testament.
37:18 It wasn't a new trajectory,
37:19 for a new theology of ordination.
37:24 Let's come back and talk about this...
37:26 I know it was one of the questions on the Survey...
37:28 for instance, it was about whether the World Church
37:30 should just let everybody do its own thing,
37:33 in other words, let this Division do its thing
37:35 and another Division...
37:36 as far as this issue is concerned...
37:38 and wow! they turned that down pretty heavy duty...
37:40 they did not go there.
37:43 What is the wisdom in that?
37:45 What are they seeing that some folk are not seeing,
37:49 what do you think?
37:52 I don't think that they're seeing...
37:54 you know, actually in the Theology Ordination Committee
37:59 there were three groups,
38:00 Group number one
38:02 was composed of those who oppose
38:04 the ordination of women as Pastors and Elders.
38:07 Group number two
38:10 believes that men and women are absolutely equal
38:14 and have interchangeable roles.
38:16 Group number three
38:17 believes that men do have spiritual leadership
38:21 but, you know, to not cause division in the Church...
38:25 we need to allow Division and each Union
38:28 to make their own decision.
38:29 However, Group number three has made it clear
38:31 that they will only do that
38:34 if the General Conference...
38:37 the World Church and General Conference Session
38:39 votes in favor of it.
38:40 So, I can't see the rationale of...
38:44 of doing something that is contrary to the Bible
38:46 which is going to eventually lead to Congregationalism.
38:51 Well, yeah, that's a... that's a very good point...
38:55 it's your Ministries... your ordained Ministers...
38:59 those that have the responsibility
39:00 of overseeing the Church...
39:02 that's kind of... in one sense, in one way...
39:04 the glue that glues the world Church together
39:07 because we have a unity of ordination
39:10 all around the world... and so... the ordination that...
39:14 when you ordain someone in America,
39:17 that ordination is good in Africa...
39:19 it's good in Asia... or wherever...
39:21 and if we start dividing this up,
39:23 then we're really asking for the Church to be divided...
39:26 and I think your... it's a very good point...
39:28 if we want to break up the Church,
39:30 then, let's break up the ordination issue
39:33 and... so... I think that folk in that Survey
39:36 are seeing the reality of that
39:38 and the importance of staying together
39:40 and staying together Biblically on this...
39:43 and while we may respect the...
39:45 certainly respect people that have a difference of opinion,
39:48 I tell you... the last thing I want to see
39:50 is this Church broken up...
39:52 I want to see Jesus come
39:53 and God's got a lot of work for this Church to do
39:56 so, that third option is really no option at all.
39:59 It's a bad option...
40:01 It's a... yeah...
40:02 Yeah, the idea that... while it's an imperfect world,
40:07 that we would deliberately ever come together as a world church
40:10 and say, "We know, this isn't what the Bible teaches,
40:12 but in order for us to stay together
40:15 let's go ahead and compromise and vote it... "
40:16 that makes me shudder to think that we would knowingly choose
40:21 to believe something that is unbiblical...
40:24 would the Adventist church have ever formed
40:27 with that kind of mindset?
40:28 And especially, Doug, when you take the example
40:31 that they use to try and prove their point,
40:34 that the King of... the King of Israel...
40:37 I mean, the argument is that God wanted to be Israel's King
40:42 but because the people wanted a human king...
40:46 God said, "Okay, I'll allow Plan B...
40:49 I'll allow less than the ideal"
40:51 supposedly, to keep unity
40:54 and to further the mission of Israel,
40:56 well, what happened?
40:58 Israel was divided as a result of that
41:00 into ten tribes and two tribes...
41:03 and, instead of them preserving the message
41:09 and proclaiming the message,
41:10 their kings got married with women from other nations
41:14 and they lost their identity,
41:16 so, to use that example, to say that
41:19 in Organizational matters now,
41:21 the church can deviate from God's ideal plan
41:25 and adopt a Plan B...
41:27 at this stage in human history,
41:29 when we are at the doors of the second coming of Christ,
41:32 it just doesn't make any sense.
41:34 One other point on that is,
41:36 when they did end up picking a king,
41:38 it says, "All of the Elders came to Samuel... "
41:43 it is hardly all that are asking for this...
41:45 it's like, there... there is a... in my opinion...
41:48 I think there is a minority
41:50 of very bright and influential people that...
41:53 for whatever reason... are pushing this.
41:55 And it seems pretty evident and...
41:57 but the rank and file... grassroots
41:59 are actually showing their influence.
42:01 People would lose the respect of those around...
42:04 many people say, "Well, I respect the Adventists
42:07 even though I don't agree with the seventh-day Sabbath
42:09 or whatever... but they're very consistent,
42:11 they're Bible-believing people...
42:13 if we accept this
42:15 and we go into the accepting of homosexual marriages,
42:18 then, the Sabbath has no validity
42:22 neither, I guess, any of our other foundational beliefs,
42:27 doesn't it Jay?
42:28 It seems like... there is an erosion about to take place
42:31 and that's why we're having this Program,
42:34 and I think, this truth has to be safeguarded
42:37 and again, because what you're giving us
42:39 is a picture of what can happen down the road
42:42 and we always need to look at consequences
42:44 but... it's really tonight... and listening to you all
42:48 that it's really clicking with me more than ever before,
42:52 the importance... of... of... we really need to look at this
42:56 as a church and a people and say,
42:57 "Do we want to do this?"
42:59 Because as soon as we do this,
43:00 we're throwing away a lot of the other pillars
43:03 that we have stood on all these years.
43:06 I don't know that I could have said it better myself,
43:08 change your hermeneutics... change your religion...
43:11 and that's...
43:14 to me the issue isn't really "women's ordination"
43:18 the real issue is the authority of Scripture
43:23 within the Church...
43:24 are we going to continue to be a Bible-believing...
43:28 Bible-practicing Church?
43:30 That's... that's the real issue...
43:31 I know that I understand the power of culture...
43:34 I understand dreams and aspirations
43:38 but all of us have got to submit to Scripture,
43:41 we got to surrender my dreams and aspirations
43:44 to the authority of Scripture
43:46 and heaven is going to be a place made up of unselfish love,
43:50 what a great place that's going to be
43:52 and this is a wonderful Church.
43:54 If you were the devil,
43:55 you'd go after a couple of things,
43:57 you'd go after the authority of Scripture within the Churches,
44:01 if you can change that, you can fix...
44:03 you can just about bring anything in
44:05 and you'd also go after the unity of the Church,
44:07 you want to break this Church up,
44:09 our... our... our Pope is the Heavenly Father...
44:13 the real Papa and... and... Christ Jesus is our High Priest
44:19 and the rest of us are submissive
44:23 to their orders and to their directions,
44:25 if Jesus, who thought it not wrong to be equal with God,
44:31 if He can take on the role of a servant
44:34 and be submissive to His Heavenly Father
44:37 in order to save us,
44:39 then, when He asks Jay Gallimore or any of us...
44:42 whether we're male or female,
44:43 whether we're children or whoever we are...
44:46 to be submissive to God's divine order,
44:48 why should we argue?
44:49 We're headed to our heavenly culture...
44:52 of course, there is unselfish love
44:54 and there's submissiveness in that culture
44:57 and... because God said it that way,
44:59 before the fall, when everything was perfect,
45:02 so, those are the concerns that I see
45:04 that... if you change the hermeneutics,
45:07 you can open the door to anything,
45:09 no matter how well-meaning people are...
45:12 and I have friends that I love and admire...
45:14 on both sides of this issue but I cannot stand by and say,
45:20 "We can just change the hermeneutics here
45:22 and go down the road in it
45:24 because it's going to open the door to stuff
45:26 that we'll say, "Oh! what did we do?"
45:28 But then it's going to be too late to change that whole issue.
45:32 To be a "Peculiar People... "
45:33 I have friends of some other Christian persuasions
45:37 some Baptists... some Methodists and some in particular...
45:41 because of their political beliefs,
45:43 I've noticed they've been writing lately on media...
45:46 social media...
45:48 and they're Christians saying, "You know what?
45:51 We're in the 21st Century, we have to put aside...
45:55 anybody can marry anybody...
45:57 you know, and we as Christians...
45:59 it's wrong for us to judge others,
46:01 the Bible says, 'Love one another... '
46:03 it doesn't specifically say who... "
46:05 now, these are people that ten years ago,
46:07 would have never... as much as...
46:10 we wouldn't have as a church...
46:13 would have never gone that route,
46:15 to openly say, "This... "
46:17 he didn't say, "Thus saith the... "
46:19 you know, they're not saying,
46:20 "Thus saith the Word of God"
46:22 they are looking at the climate around us
46:25 and now it's more popular in many areas
46:28 and we even have...
46:29 and I don't want to get in political things
46:31 but... when the President of the United States
46:33 will call people publicly...
46:35 and they'll be in all the news to congratulate
46:37 athletes or whomever because they're homosexual...
46:41 I mean, something is wrong and we all need to say,
46:43 "We'd better get back and look at the Bible and see
46:46 what the Bible has to say...
46:47 because... so goes the Leadership...
46:49 so goes the people... "
46:51 and thus... in our Church...
46:53 so, goes the Leadership...
46:54 and many times... thus goes the people...
46:56 so, I appreciate you all
46:58 standing up for what we believe is truth.
47:01 Well, you know what, Danny,
47:02 just to add to what you're saying,
47:05 five years ago, 60% of the Americans
47:08 were against same-sex marriage,
47:10 in just five years, that has swapped
47:13 to where now, 60% support same-sex marriage,
47:18 you can see how public opinion can be changed,
47:22 right, wrong, truth,
47:25 that doesn't come into the equation at all...
47:29 it's simply... public opinion...
47:32 what they will vote... what they are for...
47:35 and it has changed... in just five years' time...
47:39 from one extreme to another.
47:42 You know, we used the word "culture" a few times tonight
47:45 that's sort of a nebulous term
47:46 but I think everybody knows that media is extremely powerful
47:52 which is why we're here tonight and there's...
47:55 there's someone else who has a number of stations
47:58 and he does not believe in Scripture
48:01 and the devil is using the media to program the young people
48:05 into accepting values... not just the homosexual issue
48:09 but on a whole spectrum of things,
48:11 values of violence...
48:13 and, you know, values of immorality...
48:15 so that, if you stand up for Biblical truth,
48:20 you're going to be looked upon as an oddball... in these days.
48:23 And little by little,
48:25 we need to worry about our young people
48:26 and all the media because you can see,
48:28 those from the great generation
48:30 they're pretty straight on some of these things
48:32 but as time goes by,
48:33 the younger ones are being bombarded with programming
48:36 that... there's an attack really... on men...
48:39 you know, Ellen White says,
48:42 "The greatest want in the world is the want of men... "
48:44 and some people will say, "Well, that just means people"
48:46 but you read the context of what she said...
48:48 she's talking about men...
48:49 she talks about other men in Bible history,
48:51 and the typical sitcom and the programs on television today
48:55 and the commercials...
48:57 all make the father out to be... the stooge of the family...
49:00 and where God designed that men should be... manly
49:05 and brave and ready to lay down their lives for their families,
49:08 the days of the Titanic...
49:10 where you said, "Women and children first... "
49:12 you wonder what would happen today.
49:13 You know, we should not allow
49:16 political pressure to determine a decision...
49:20 you know, what Jim was saying just a few moments ago,
49:24 it rings so true,
49:25 let me give you an example,
49:26 in 1996, then President... Bill Clinton,
49:31 fought tooth and nail in favor or DOMA...
49:35 "The Defense of Marriage Act"
49:37 to get that through Congress
49:39 I mean, he was, gung-ho...
49:41 now, he has totally shifted... because the times have shifted
49:46 and he says that this was one of the biggest mistakes
49:49 of his presidency,
49:50 because of the pressure of culture...
49:54 times have changed...
49:56 so, the politicians say, "I have to change too. "
49:59 The Seventh-day Adventist Church
50:00 cannot make decisions based on that.
50:02 The decisions that we make
50:05 have to be based on this Book right here...
50:07 we cannot allow political pressures or peer pressure
50:10 or any other kind of pressure to determine what we do,
50:13 it must come from Sola Scriptura.
50:15 Yeah, let me... let me just zero in on that one moment
50:19 because I was in one setting where...
50:22 to support this change of ordaining...
50:25 opposite of Scripture,
50:26 they said, "Well, you know, we've had dreams and... "
50:30 and they tell... but listen, dreams...
50:33 we can go back in history
50:34 and find people who had dreams about Sunday keeping...
50:36 dreams and visions still have to be measured
50:39 by the Word of God...
50:41 and they also tell these heart-reaching stories...
50:44 if you look at this whole homosexual thing,
50:46 it's done by telling all these stories, you know,
50:48 and tear-jerking stories
50:50 well, I... I like good stories too
50:52 but every story has got to be measured
50:55 by the Word of God...
50:56 and... and on this kind of thing...
50:58 it's not emotion that's got to drive us,
51:00 we've got to say, "What says the Lord?"
51:02 I love what she says about... in Great Controversy...
51:04 and that's why I'm optimistic about God's church,
51:06 she says... and I'm not quoting verbatim
51:09 but she says, in so many words
51:10 that God will have a people in the end of time
51:13 that will demand a plain, "Thus says the Lord... "
51:17 no matter what the counsels or whatever...
51:19 or learned men... and she goes on with that,
51:22 why does she say that?
51:23 Because, when Jesus comes again
51:25 and He asks the question, "Will I find faith on earth?"
51:27 Well, faith is going to be
51:30 faith in Christ and in the Scripture,
51:32 and... so...
51:34 the issue that,
51:35 I think our Listeners have to ask themselves
51:38 is not whether... I'm for it or against it...
51:41 but we would beg people, "Go to your Bible...
51:45 look at your Bible... read your Bible on this...
51:48 look at it yourself and see what it says...
51:51 because at the end of the day,
51:53 we got to be faithful to the Word of God... "
51:56 We only have about five minutes left
51:59 so we'd like each of you to take a couple of minutes,
52:02 you're talking to Viewers around the world
52:04 and maybe give us some... some insight...
52:07 some of your thoughts.
52:09 Well, shall I start?
52:12 Well, like Martin Luther said,
52:16 "Here I stand, so help me God!"
52:19 And he stood on Scripture...
52:23 Now, we know that he didn't stand on Scripture on everything
52:26 because he didn't keep the Sabbath...
52:27 he didn't understand the state of the dead...
52:28 but what made Luther's work so effective
52:34 was Sola Scriptura,
52:36 everything had to be based on Scripture
52:38 and so, whatever decision that we make as a church,
52:43 has to be based... not on a change of hermeneutics,
52:48 not on the basis of culture,
52:50 purely and simply... upon the simple reading of God's Word
52:56 as the ultimate authority.
52:59 You know, I'm very passionate about this also
53:03 because as an Evangelist... for years...
53:05 you know, this Church... I love...
53:06 and my... my passion and all that Amazing Facts does
53:10 is to bring people into Christ... into His Church
53:13 and when I see the new...
53:15 we're using the word, "hermeneutic"
53:18 but the new Bible Study principles
53:20 being used to support women's ordination,
53:23 I realize, I could not preach our message
53:27 using those same principles
53:28 and most of the Evangelists I know, feel the same way...
53:31 that this is really going to affect
53:34 the proclamation of the gospel if we...
53:36 if we get this wrong,
53:38 and so, you know, I... I long to see
53:40 not only our Church stay together,
53:42 I want it to stay together on the Word...
53:43 and I want to see a revival...
53:45 even those who might have this issue right
53:47 can still be lost...
53:48 so, we need a real revival of the Spirit
53:50 and maybe this issue will be the catalyst
53:52 to get us back in our Bibles.
53:55 Well, it's... any time that you have
53:58 a difference of opinion with people
54:00 and it may be even strong differences of opinion,
54:03 we still have to maintain the love of God...
54:06 and we must love one another,
54:10 well... the last thing we would want to do
54:11 is to set up people fighting with one another...
54:14 but what we could like to do is say,
54:17 "Go to the Bible together, open it on your knees...
54:19 say, 'Lord Jesus, teach us what this says... '"
54:22 and let's look in the Old Testament... New Testament,
54:25 let's examine these things that have been brought forward
54:28 so, that's what we would like to do...
54:30 that people get together...
54:32 open your Bible with an honest heart...
54:35 and say, "Lord Jesus... "
54:38 and then let your...
54:39 this is a representative form of Church government...
54:41 you should let people know how you feel...
54:43 your elected officials...
54:45 you should let them know how you feel...
54:47 and don't be afraid... don't be silent...
54:48 this is not the time to be silent.
54:50 You know, if you'd like a copy
54:52 of this Program tonight... you can call our Office...
54:55 we are closed now but during work week
54:59 starting Monday morning 8 to 5... call the Office...
55:04 and if you can make a contribution... please do,
55:07 but if you can't, we'll still send you a copy.
55:10 Well, Danny, I'm really happy
55:15 that we had this discussion tonight.
55:16 Oh, I am too... I was sitting here thinking...
55:18 it's been... almost this November...
55:20 it's 30 years since... I'm a carpenter and a lay member
55:23 I had this impression to build a television station
55:26 that will reach the world
55:27 with an undiluted three angels' messages...
55:30 one that would counteract the counterfeit,
55:33 at that time, I didn't even know,
55:35 Brother Jay, what that meant...
55:37 "undiluted three angels' messages"
55:39 confession is good for the soul yet hard on the reputation,
55:42 I grew up as a young person...
55:44 kind of... legalistic Adventist home,
55:46 so I could argue about the Sabbath
55:48 with friends at school
55:49 and the state of the dead and some of these things,
55:51 but when I was impressed with that,
55:54 I said, "I should really get a better understanding
55:56 before I go, trying to raise a Network to reach the world
56:00 with an undiluted three angels' messages,
56:02 I'd better find out what that really is. "
56:04 So, it's interesting tonight... I'm still learning...
56:07 but this is a fulfillment of almost 30 years ago,
56:11 what I see tonight... undiluted truths...
56:13 coming from Leadership
56:16 representing the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
56:18 and, of course, that's us laymen also...
56:20 joining hands together
56:22 to be able to get a truth that's very important
56:25 because we have seen...
56:27 ten years ago, no one...
56:28 and Jim said, maybe five years ago,
56:30 we wouldn't have thought about this conversation tonight
56:34 taking two hours to do this,
56:35 think what the future holds if we keep on this roll...
56:38 heading... and it's not good...
56:41 so, thank you for reminding us...
56:43 we have to come back to the Word of God,
56:45 come back and say, "Lord, we're your servants,
56:47 we only want to do... and only want to disseminate
56:50 the gospel that You have given us...
56:52 help us to keep it pure... undiluted... "
56:55 You know, this Night Light Program
56:58 was designed to talk about subjects
57:01 that sometimes might not be talked about on many Programs...
57:04 we look at controversy...
57:07 we look at things that people are asking...
57:10 and... sometimes we get a little criticism
57:13 for looking at some of these subjects
57:16 that are really kind of touchy in many ways...
57:20 we thank you for understanding...
57:22 we thank you for your prayers and financial support
57:25 at 3ABN...
57:26 keep on... keeping on with Jesus.