Participants: Ron Woolsey (Host), Wayne Blakely
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000039
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Welcome to "Pure Choices." 00:42 I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries. 00:45 And today my guest is Ron Woolsley, 00:48 a ministry colleague of mine in Coming Out Ministries. 00:51 Welcome, Ron. Thank you. 00:53 Ron, recently I was sharing a presentation at a church 00:58 and a gentleman came to me with question 01:01 that I thought was interesting 01:04 that someone from the church was beginning to ask. 01:07 And he said, you know, 01:09 "Wayne, how did gays gain so much power?" 01:13 And I said, "Well, I'm not sure 01:17 that you're going to like my response, 01:20 but I'll be happy to share that with you." 01:23 And I said, you know, 01:24 "Over the years in church culture, in society, 01:30 many people have lived secretly with desires 01:34 that they dare not share with the church. 01:36 And you know they, they stuff it. 01:39 They keep stuffing these emotions and these desires 01:42 because they don't feel like 01:44 they can share them openly with anyone. 01:46 And long about the ages of 18 or 19 or 20, 01:50 they finally say, 'you know what, 01:52 I'm out of here.' 01:53 Because the driving forces of nature 01:56 and of deception have finally worn out 01:59 and they exit the church doors and many of them never return." 02:04 So I said to him, you know, these are people today 02:07 that are sitting in positions of power 02:12 who have left the church and have decided 02:14 that God doesn't hold the answers for them anymore 02:17 and they entered into a simple scene 02:19 and often have been arbitrating 02:22 for gay rights and for legislation. 02:26 And we're seeing more and more 02:28 things that are being put into a lot today 02:31 that are specifically put their, 02:35 that might in essence really already be there 02:37 as for protection of hate crimes 02:41 or things that are happening to individuals at large, 02:45 but specifically, the gay community has come in 02:48 to make sure that the wording has to do 02:50 with gays in particular. 02:52 So it's a specific, a special right 02:55 for a special individual people, 02:59 specifically gays. 03:01 So I wanted to ask you a little bit about that today, 03:04 about the special laws that are being passed 03:06 and we're seeing this in the headlines today, 03:09 almost everyday. 03:11 What about the church? 03:13 What is the churches' role in all of this? 03:16 Well, the churches' role in the laws 03:19 or how the church has been affected, or? 03:21 How it's been affected? 03:22 How the church should respond? 03:25 And also, how, this is kind of a multi-parted, 03:28 but we want to cover in today's discussion. 03:31 What could the church be doing to maintain, 03:35 someone to keep them within inside the church family, 03:39 rather than ostracizing them 03:40 and having them end up in civil society 03:43 and seeking to get rights 03:46 that are more of a secular nature 03:48 than what God would have for us? 03:50 Well, of course, the church needs to be reaching out 03:53 to the gay community 03:55 or as we identify that issue within our church 04:00 and we don't shove it aside, we don't hide from it, 04:05 we address it, 04:06 we in a loving way show these people 04:11 that they too are recipients of God's grace, 04:17 His love, and our candidates for conversion. 04:22 Would you say that the church has been a bit inept 04:25 in their, not knowing how to reach out 04:28 that there's been lack of education 04:30 and that there are bigger efforts 04:31 that are moving in to seek to normalize 04:35 the, the gay presence and gay rights 04:39 actually within the church itself? 04:41 Well, I think so. 04:43 It's quite evident to me 04:45 and I think to you having been there, 04:48 that as the church has been unable 04:52 to successfully deal with the issue, 04:54 there's a very orchestrated effort 04:56 as in the world. 04:58 There's a very orchestrated effort 05:01 to bring acceptance into the church. 05:03 And if the church doesn't have answers for the gay issue, 05:08 then they are almost powerless to stop the pro-gay influences 05:14 that are coming into the church. 05:17 We have some pretty hard evidence 05:20 of some of these efforts that have been made 05:22 towards the church in kind of laying the ground work. 05:27 I mean there's even a couple of denominations 05:29 that I've been familiar with that have incorporated, 05:33 you know, well, we have, 05:35 you know, things that have been passed now 05:36 as gays marriage, and there's gays clergy, 05:39 there's a little differentiation 05:43 between someone today who is, who has made a decision 05:48 to be a pastor regardless of what, 05:52 whether they are heterosexual or homosexual. 05:55 There has been some particular petitions 05:58 that I think that you are aware of 06:00 and wanted to share with us today. 06:03 Can you share one of those with us? 06:04 Yes, actually there are three examples 06:07 of this pro-gay effort within, not just our denomination, 06:13 but I mean, the pro-gay effort is, 06:16 it's an effort that prevails every echelon of society. 06:21 But within our own denomination, 06:23 I'm very aware of three particular examples. 06:27 And if I could just share some snippets 06:30 from each one of the-- 06:31 It's a given idea what we're facing 06:33 because we as Christians need to be aware 06:36 of this very aggressive effort 06:40 to promote acceptance of homosexuality 06:44 within the church. 06:47 I was at a convention at one point and was left. 06:49 There was a flier left at my booth 06:52 where I'm of course, trying to network 06:55 with people showing resources for overcoming homosexuality. 07:00 And then I come back from a little break 07:03 and there's a flier on my booth, 07:04 it's called "Come As You Are." 07:07 And I thought well, this is interesting. 07:08 And so I picked it up 07:10 and the inside cover reads like this. 07:13 "You are loved," emphasis in the typing. 07:16 "You are loved. 07:18 Gay Christians are wholly loved and accepted by God." 07:23 And I thought about that and I said, 07:24 well, that's partly true, but not completely true. 07:28 And you can, 07:32 a little truth mixed with error can be very dangerous. 07:34 Yes, it can. 07:36 And the reason I say this is because, for example, 07:37 I used to be a bartender 07:39 and as a bartender I had regular clients 07:42 that would come in and, and I knew their drinks. 07:44 And they would come in and ask for the usual. 07:46 Well, some of my clients would come in 07:48 and they would want their, their liquor straight up. 07:51 I mean, just straight alcohol in a little glass. 07:54 Someone else would want it on the rocks, 07:56 a little ice and that's a little diluted. 07:58 Someone else what's there liquor 08:00 with a little water, that's a little more diluted. 08:02 But very popular drinks are those called mixed drinks 08:06 in which there's a lot of good 08:09 and we always hear that argument. 08:11 There's a lot of good in that. 08:12 Well, there would be, for example, 08:14 a tall glass of orange juice and a short of vodka, right. 08:18 A lot of good in that drink, 08:20 but I'll tell you by the end of the night, 08:21 those drinking the mixed drinks were just as drunk 08:24 as those who are having it straight up. 08:26 They went to the rest room a lot more often, 08:29 but they were just as drunk. 08:32 And so to me it's important to realize 08:34 Satan is a master bartender. 08:36 He knows how much error 08:39 we will take with our lot of good or truth. 08:41 And so in this statement, I see that very subtle working. 08:47 You are loved. 08:48 Gay Christians are wholly loved. 08:50 True. 08:52 And accepted implied wholly accepted by God. 08:56 Not true. 08:58 Now they are accepted if they are coming 09:00 into the school of discipleship 09:02 and are wiling to be transformed, yes. 09:04 But they are not accepted without being wholly, 09:07 entirely submitted to that process. 09:10 So here this flier is being circulated 09:14 to promote the idea that, that homosexuals should be 09:18 allowed completely into the church 09:20 without transformation. 09:23 And later on in this flier, the pamphlet stated 09:26 that the Bible never even mentions homosexuality 09:29 or sexual orientation. 09:31 Well, they were quoting from the NIV 09:36 and I was using the King James Bible. 09:38 So I just went to the NIV which they were quoting from 09:41 in the opening statement about 09:42 "Come unto me, all ye that labor." 09:46 And there the text of scripture 09:47 that we use in Leviticus and Romans and all of that. 09:52 And the King James it doesn't say homosexual, 09:54 it just describes the behavior. 09:56 But in the NIV it uses the words homosexuality 09:59 and homosexual, so it's very specific. 10:01 But here again, 10:02 the effort is to try to put forth the position 10:07 that God doesn't mentioned homosexuality, 10:09 so therefore, it's okay. 10:11 But God also knows 10:13 that we can mess around with labels 10:15 and terms and definitions and so in the Bible 10:19 He just spells out the behavior. 10:21 There is no way to miss what He's talking about. 10:26 And, anyway, this, this flier was being circulated 10:30 quite heavily within this convention, 10:32 which is a worldwide convention for our denomination. 10:35 Right. 10:37 Then there are several petitions 10:39 that have also gone around. 10:43 This one was prior to another worldwide convention 10:48 and the effort is to try to get the church 10:51 to change its position on homosexuality 10:55 rather than assist the homosexual 10:57 in changing his behavior to become like Christ. 11:00 It's an opposite approach and if I could just share 11:04 just a few thoughts from here that show-- 11:07 And what we're trying to show here is the effort, 11:10 this steady, concentrated effort 11:13 to infringe upon the church to baptize perversion. 11:21 One of all the distinctives, their, their petition says 11:24 this, it opens this way. 11:26 Of all the distinctives that might define Christians, 11:29 Jesus identified only one thing 11:32 that will distinguish His followers. 11:34 I had trouble right there. 11:36 Does only God only give one thing? 11:38 No. 11:39 And then they quote John 13. 11:41 A new command I give you, love one another. 11:46 And so they are using the text love one another 11:49 to condone perversion. 11:52 But I don't think Jesus is telling us when He saying 11:55 "Love one another as I have loved you" 11:59 to go sleep with anybody you want to 12:01 as many partners as you want 12:03 and of the same sex as well as the opposite sex. 12:07 I was quite shocked to see 12:09 the word of God used in such a way 12:12 when the love that Jesus is talking about 12:15 is a high, holy, agape love 12:17 and they turn it around, at least the appearances 12:20 to mean a perverted sensual type of love. 12:26 And that was the opening statement. 12:30 You know, I would like to interject here a little bit 12:33 about some of the media that's out there today, 12:37 the gay themed media that's been put 12:40 in front of families, you know, everywhere to take a look at. 12:46 There are different campaigns out there today that say 12:49 "Hey, you know, this is who I am, 12:51 accept me just the way I am" with really very little 12:55 or no reference to the word of God. 12:57 And I recently previewed a film where that had a, 13:01 it's great focus was on this idea of, 13:05 to love one another. 13:06 And while I think that's so important, 13:09 I think that is important 13:10 that we don't forget what kind of love that is. 13:14 You know, Jesus' love, it can be very different 13:16 from that of a fleshly love or worldly love. 13:20 And as I viewed this particular piece of media, 13:24 you know, various homosexual couples 13:27 had come together who said that there was, you know, 13:30 that there's nothing they can do 13:32 about how they are or who they are. 13:34 And that, the only options available to them 13:38 were to be either heterosexual or celibate 13:42 and that, that wasn't something 13:43 that they felt that God was directing them. 13:47 And I begin to think, well, sometimes the things that, 13:50 that, if we doesn't feel like something we want to do, 13:55 we might say that it's not what God intended. 13:57 When God in essence has really directing us 14:00 through His word about whether we're homosexual 14:04 or whether we're same sex attracted 14:06 or, or single heterosexual. 14:10 God does call us to moral behavior 14:14 which is intimacy between a man and a woman 14:17 only after marriage 14:18 and that's all I've actually been able to find in His word. 14:22 So it's interesting to me and these were the things 14:24 that I considered in my walk back with Christ 14:26 because, you know, I would have wanted 14:28 to keep my same sex partner. 14:31 I would have wanted to look for a same sex person 14:36 to marry if I had some kind of iconic ideology in God's word 14:42 that which show me 14:43 that this was according to God's plan, 14:45 but I haven't been able to find 14:47 and I haven't had anyone who's on, 14:50 who has the agenda that you are referring to, 14:52 to be able to tell me 14:54 that there is such a proof in God's word. 14:57 In fact, I asked someone recently 14:59 who was very pro-gay 15:02 and trying to ground herself in the spiritual realm. 15:06 She kept saying to me, you know, 15:08 "Well, Wayne, you know, you needed a redeemer 15:10 because you had a life of promiscuity, 15:13 where I am representing people 15:15 who are of a same sex monogamous relationship." 15:19 And I said, "Okay, fine, yes, I did need a redeemer. 15:23 Can you give me the evidence and the proof in God's word 15:26 that He does approve 15:28 of a same sex monogamous relationship 15:30 because I've been searching the word everywhere 15:33 for such a statement, you know, 15:34 because I could, I could live with my feelings that way." 15:37 And she responded and finally said 15:39 "You won't find it in God's word." 15:41 Well, see that's the whole problem, Wayne, 15:43 in the film that you're talking about. 15:47 My understanding is and I've seen trailers of it, 15:50 I've not seen the whole film. 15:52 But the focus is upon the feelings 15:54 and the emotions of the people, 15:57 not the feelings and emotions of God 15:59 and the Creator. 16:01 And there are not references to scripture 16:03 that backup their feelings and emotions. 16:07 It's all about sympathy and empathy. 16:10 And, but where is our sympathy for our Creator 16:14 and His broken heart 16:15 and His son that was hanging on the cross 16:17 because of our giving into our feelings and emotions? 16:21 And I think that's a big problem. 16:24 You know, another thing that comes out 16:27 of this first petition here is that they referred to-- 16:34 Their understanding that we as a church 16:37 have fallen short of Jesus' vision 16:40 with respect to our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers. 16:45 And they say here we confess that as a church, 16:48 we have failed to demonstrate Jesus love 16:50 in our interactions with the LGBTI members 16:53 of our community. 16:54 Well, thanks, Ron. What is LGBTI? 16:57 Well, that's a good question. 16:59 I had to kind of research that myself. 17:02 It used to be, Wayne, that the homosexual community 17:06 wanted to be tolerated and accepted as homosexuals. 17:10 As this movement has grown, 17:12 it has gone from homosexuals to gays and lesbians. 17:17 L, G, lesbians and Gay. 17:20 Now it has grown to include B, bisexuals. 17:24 It has-- The tent has enlarged 17:26 to include transgenders, that's the T. 17:29 And I, that was a new one for me, 17:31 but that's intersex, 17:33 people who are born with both male 17:37 and females organs and so forth. 17:39 And my immediate question is, 17:43 "What's going to stop this list from growing?" 17:46 You know, once we uproot God's protective hedge, 17:50 His law, His fence, "Where do we put it down?" 17:54 And I can see right here that this effort 17:57 is including more and more sexual perversions. 18:01 So if we normalize all of these things 18:03 and it looks like there is a progression. 18:06 What would be next? 18:08 If everything is put in place civilly 18:11 to protect gays and lesbians and transgendered 18:15 and intrasexual and so, you know, 18:18 for the sake of political efforts 18:19 and for the rights of people 18:21 who feel like they are minority, 18:22 what would be next? 18:24 Well, the next thing is already in the works, 18:26 its polygamy. 18:27 Well, why not? 18:28 We see polygamy in the Bible among God's chosen people. 18:33 Not that God condoned it, 18:35 but He never called it abomination. 18:39 So there are already efforts. 18:41 And now please don't think I'm promoting polygamy. 18:44 But I'm just saying 18:45 if you're going to enlarge the tent, 18:47 polygamy would be next I would think 18:49 and we see these efforts already. 18:51 Then what about this "Man-Boy Love Association?" 18:55 There are efforts to get that legalized now, 18:57 which is pedophilia. 19:00 Then what about bestiality? 19:01 Now where does it stop? 19:03 Once we start embracing these different deviations. 19:07 You know, people don't see this as a real issue 19:10 when they first hear that. 19:11 They see that as, oh, come on, that's an impossibility. 19:14 But you know, if 50 years ago, where it would have stated 19:19 that gay and lesbian love and partners 19:23 and the marriage of same sex people were possible, 19:26 I would have never dream that possible, 19:28 certainly not in my lifetime. 19:29 I would have actually thought that Jesus would come 19:31 before that would actually happen. 19:34 But we're reminded that 19:36 just as there was destruction in the past, 19:38 that there will be destruction again 19:40 due to the condition of the world. 19:43 Fifty years ago the effort was to just being tolerated, 19:46 to stop persecuting us. 19:48 Now it's gone from toleration to celebration, 19:52 to legislation, to promotion 19:55 and privilege, status and all of these things. 19:58 And so we see that there's really never 20:01 going to be an end. 20:03 When a, when an issue is focused upon self, 20:06 self gratification, self glory, 20:09 there's never total satisfaction. 20:12 In the common denominator seems to coming back in this 20:15 is the sympathy factor. 20:18 Because if we can show the pain, 20:21 the hurt, the isolation, the rejection, that somehow 20:25 and I'm finding this in our church culture today 20:28 is that well, we have the need 20:31 and we want to keep in our lives those people 20:34 that we love that somehow were compromising truth 20:39 just to say that we love them or putting an approval 20:42 on the behavior by saying that we love them. 20:46 And I think that God has shown us 20:48 that He loves us while we are still sinners, 20:52 but He doesn't want to leave us in that condition, 20:54 He's looking for us to make decisions 20:56 for His pureness, for His glory 20:58 and for doing things His way instead of our way. 21:01 It was actually someone who said, 21:04 "Uh, I have a better way who God loved dearly, 21:09 who ended up getting himself cast out of heaven." 21:12 Right. 21:13 And in this petition there are certain demands 21:16 that are being imposed upon the church. 21:19 And because in the interest of time I'll just kind of list 21:22 the, the list of demands that are being made here 21:26 because it's really quite surprising. 21:30 They call upon, in our denomination, 21:32 to extend the love in grace of Jesus to the homosexual. 21:36 Of course, grace is not defined, 21:38 but in the Greek dictionary grace is the divine influence 21:41 working upon the heart reflecting in the life. 21:44 So if we are extending love and grace to the homosexual, 21:47 we're extending a message of transformation of character. 21:50 They are calling for grace 21:52 but not in the way that it is really defined. 21:55 But then they call for acknowledging 21:57 that homosexual orientation is determined before birth, 22:02 but that's a scientific controversy right now. 22:05 That has not been determined. 22:08 Then number two, to eject as a form of violence, 22:11 any programs that attempt to change 22:14 or redirect one sexual orientation. 22:16 Now that troubles me because I'm a pastor, 22:19 I'm an evangelist, I'm a counselor. 22:23 My role is to help people change. 22:28 In evangelism, we are helping people come 22:31 from outside the law to inside the law 22:35 and they are calling for our denomination to accept 22:38 my role as an act of violence. 22:41 I think that's very shocking to see 22:44 that to help someone who is in need 22:46 is now called an act of violence. 22:49 Number three, to act deliberately and decisively 22:52 to prevent judgmental and condemning attitudes 22:55 towards homosexuals. 22:57 Number four, providing 22:59 homosexual sisters and brothers, 23:01 not only a place in our pews 23:03 but also a space on our platforms, 23:07 allowing all of the gifts 23:09 God has given them to be used to honor and serve God. 23:13 So yes, they may be very gifted people, 23:15 but are these gifts being used truly to honor and serve God? 23:20 But they are making that demand. 23:21 And then number five, fully integrating lesbian, gay, 23:26 bisexual, transgender, 23:28 and intersex members of the church 23:31 into the life of the church community. 23:34 So they are asking for full integration, 23:37 that means accepting gay marriage, 23:40 accepting homosexuality and membership. 23:44 Membership is sacred. Worship is for anyone. 23:49 Our doors should be open for anyone, 23:50 but membership is sacred 23:52 because membership allows a voice, 23:55 a deciding voice and a vote. 23:57 And they are calling for full integration 23:59 with the right to voice, to vote, and if you can vote, 24:02 you can also be put into office, 24:04 which would mean they could be church leaders, 24:07 church pastors, church bishops and all of these things. 24:10 And all of these demands 24:14 go directly against what we believe biblically. 24:18 And the point that strikes me so in all of these is that, 24:23 it's not based upon any word of God, 24:25 no text of scripture but how we feel. 24:29 We feel that this is what we need. 24:32 Ron, you know, this is just really brought to mind 24:37 a passage in Galatians 24:39 that I think you probably familiar with that. 24:41 Paul wrote as a warning to people 24:45 to not listen to the voice of a different gospel 24:50 and that if you're hearing the voice of a different gospel 24:54 that let them-- He says, let them be condemned 24:57 because this is not the gospel, 24:59 this is not the original gospel of Jesus Christ. 25:02 And, Wayne, we have to go back to asking, "How does God feel?" 25:06 These petitions are talking about how we feel. 25:09 I say we. Right. 25:10 But how does God feel? 25:13 What are His thoughts on this matter? 25:14 If we're talking about integrating a Christian church, 25:18 should we not look at the Christian principles 25:20 in the word of God? 25:21 Can I just share with you very quickly 25:23 what God says about how He feels? 25:26 Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things," 25:31 That's talking about us. We can't trust our feelings. 25:34 "And desperately wicked: who can know it?" 25:37 And then He answers, said, "I the Lord search the heart, 25:41 I try the reins, 25:42 even to give every man according to his ways, 25:44 and according to the fruit of his doings." 25:47 And so God knows our thoughts, our feelings, 25:50 our emotions and He says, 25:51 "you don't even know how wicked your thoughts are 25:54 if they are not in tune with Mine." 25:57 And then in Isaiah 55:9 26:00 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, 26:03 so are my ways higher than your ways, 26:06 and my thoughts than your thoughts." 26:09 So as Christians, should we not submit every thought, 26:13 every petition, every demand 26:16 to the thoughts and feelings of our Creator 26:19 who we're coming to worship in the first place?" 26:21 Right. Absolutely. 26:23 And, you know, I think it's important 26:24 that we not, let the pendulum swing the opposite direction 26:28 and just put everything all in one basket 26:30 because it's so important that we recognize 26:33 that God is calling us to embrace 26:38 and to show love to the sinner, 26:41 but to recognize the sin and helping that person 26:44 find their way to Jesus Christ, 26:47 identifying the sin, 26:50 supporting what the individual 26:54 and what that self denial looks like. 26:55 They are giving up 26:57 and they are giving over of self 26:58 and they are not isolating them, 27:00 but embracing them, giving them things to do 27:03 to stay involved in a church community, 27:06 bringing them to the Savior and helping them 27:10 want to repent, to want to be baptized, 27:14 to become a new creation in Jesus Christ 27:17 and recognize that God is a God of change 27:21 that can bring this change 27:22 and bring this new creation to our lives. 27:26 Amen. Yeah. 27:27 That's, that's what it's all about. 27:29 It's transformation of character. 27:31 All people coming to worship God 27:33 should be coming to become like Him, 27:37 to be changed, not to bring their garbage in, 27:40 let's say leave it at the door. 27:41 Right. 27:43 I'm Wayne Blakely on "Pure Choices." 27:44 Thank you so much 27:45 for joining us for this conversation today. 27:48 And I hope that you will continue to tune in. 27:50 Thank you. God bless you. |
Revised 2016-02-25