Participants: Michael Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely, Walt Heyer
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000116A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material may be too candid 00:06 for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:41 I'm Michael Carducci with Coming Out Ministries. 00:44 And I've the opportunity to interview Wayne Blakely 00:47 my colleague, and also Walt Heyer. 00:49 Welcome guys. 00:50 Thank you. All right. 00:52 So what we're going to talk about today is 00:54 transgenderism in the church. 00:56 And what we want to kind of discuss 00:57 is not only to establish our histories, 01:01 some of what we've experienced in the area of transgenderism 01:04 but also in the relationship to how that applies to church. 01:08 Because what we have now is we have multiple situations, 01:10 Wayne you and I have experienced, 01:12 Walt, even exponentially higher. 01:15 A situation of how to transition transgender 01:18 into church culture. 01:20 And so, Wayne, I just want to kind of establish, 01:24 what is your history with transgenderism personally? 01:27 Well my birth mother wasn't comfortable 01:29 with the fact that she had a baby boy. 01:32 She campaigned against it while she was pregnant with me, 01:35 and so that, when she was, 01:37 when she did gave birth to a boy, 01:39 I'm sure she was angry and upset. 01:41 I was adopted but the damage it's already been done. 01:44 I realize that I wasn't going to gain the love 01:47 that I so desperately wanted, and thus I become that girl, 01:51 and I found a sympathetic neighbor lady 01:55 who I ended up calling my aunty Ross. 01:57 And she would assist in dressing me up as a girl 02:02 from probably the ages of four 02:05 up until I was thirteen years old. 02:07 Wow. I never knew that, Wayne. 02:09 So again, you know, here you're, 02:10 you're born to a mother that rejected you. 02:13 As a matter of fact by the time you were three years old, 02:15 she'd broken your arm twice in two separate occasions. 02:18 So now here you're, you're adopted by your aunt 02:20 and uncle and now your neighbor is dressing you up 02:23 in girl clothes till you're thirteen years old? 02:25 Yeah. I didn't know that. 02:27 Yeah, at twelve years old, 02:30 I was into the Trick-or-treating 02:32 when that would come around, 02:33 I wanted to be Cinderella and she dyed as she'd pink 02:36 and I got a acrylic horrible, set on fire, 02:40 blonde wig and wore crown probably and I think my parents 02:46 wanted to dissolve into the earth. 02:48 Wow, it's interesting the things you find out 02:51 in an interview, right? 02:53 And so for me, you know, my gender dysphoria happened 02:56 before I was even conscious, 02:57 and we talk about a defensive detachment. 03:00 Because when I was transitioning 03:02 from my mother to my father realizing that 03:04 I was male and not female. 03:05 And my father was either unavailable for me 03:08 or abusive physically and verbally and emotionally, 03:12 and so I totally, before I was even conscious rejected 03:15 his masculinity. 03:16 The only example left for me was my mom, 03:18 so she was soft, she spoke softly. 03:21 I wanted to imitate her and mimic her. 03:24 And so for me, 03:25 I started wanting to be a girl thinking that I was a girl 03:28 and that's where my transgender confusion 03:30 happened for me. 03:31 Walt, briefly what was your history? 03:33 Well, I started at the age of four 03:35 cross-dressing with the help of my grandmother, 03:37 so I had the same kind of experience, 03:39 even though my grandmother stop dressing me, 03:41 you know, when I was about seven. 03:43 I still continue to secretly cross dress. 03:46 I hid clothes in the garage and another places, 03:48 so that I could continue cross-dressing 03:50 and frankly didn't stop until I was redeemed 03:55 and restored by Christ. 03:56 Right, so many parallels 03:59 and yet some real interesting differences. 04:02 You know, for, Wayne, how old were you 04:04 when the transgenderism dissipated for you? 04:08 Well, it was interesting, you know, 04:10 I'd been standing in the bathroom 04:11 and punching myself on the face and begging God. 04:15 I was demanding that he had made a mistake 04:18 and yet when I entered into gay culture at the age of 18. 04:24 I found that men in gay culture 04:28 were more appreciative of masculinity than femininity. 04:31 And so I realized that, well, may be it is that I'm okay 04:34 as a guy, and so then I started wearing the jeans 04:37 and the cowboy boots and the plaid shirts 04:40 and the idea of wanting to become a girl 04:44 really went away because I began to feel 04:46 more comfortable in my masculinity. 04:48 And my situation was very similar. 04:51 The difference though was 04:52 you received a rejection form your mother. 04:55 I rejected my father and yet we both had 04:58 the same kind of history. 04:59 And then when I was 20 years old 05:01 and came out into a gay culture, 05:02 I also realized that, if I butched it up 05:04 a little bit more and worked out in a gym 05:06 that I could get the attention from men that I desired. 05:08 Even though that was in an area of brokenness on its own. 05:12 The gender dysphoria really dissipated from me 05:14 and I was very comfortable with my male parts, 05:17 because now I realize how to get the attention of men. 05:20 So, Walt, you took a very different direction 05:22 and even though, you were never homosexual, 05:26 when did the gender dysphoria for you dissipate? 05:29 Well, it didn't dissipate until many, many years 05:33 after I'd undergone surgery and gone to therapy. 05:36 So I was, you know, started at the age of four, 05:39 so it didn't really dissipate until I was 50 years old. 05:43 And so it took many years. 05:46 So now we have an issue where not only 05:49 do have transgenderism, you know, 05:51 in our phases on the media with television 05:53 and Bruce Jenner as Caitlyn Jenner, 05:56 but now we have situations where we find in ministry 05:59 and especially you, Walt, with your ministry 06:02 that now we have the church trying to find compassion 06:06 for these people, people like us. 06:08 And also how is it that you could bring them 06:10 into church culture without sacrificing 06:13 the protection of the church members as well. 06:17 It's a very real problem so. 06:19 What I wanted to talk about little bit is, 06:21 some of the issues that we have. 06:22 One of the questions that was brought up 06:24 at our panel that we had was, 06:26 you have a 13 year boy who is transgenderd 06:29 and he wants to go to summer camp, you know, 06:31 to a Christian summer camp. 06:32 And so, what side of the camp do you put him on. 06:35 And one of the questions that we talked about 06:37 was the fact that this is a little boy, 06:39 that's 13 years old, that his parents 06:41 are obviously supporting that, 06:43 if he is coming as a transgender, 06:45 so he has a brightly painted pink room 06:47 and he's got a closet full of dresses. 06:49 You can't insist that he dress as a boy 06:51 and put him on the boy side. 06:53 And then I think, well, you can't put him 06:55 on the girl side either because that wouldn't be fair 06:57 to the girls to expose this young boy, you know, 07:00 to male genitalia before they're ready for it. 07:04 And then, if you put him on the boy side 07:05 as a boy then, you need to protect the transgender 07:09 also from being taunted and teased by the other kids. 07:12 So we have this dilemma that, quite frankly 07:15 we just couldn't even answer that question. 07:17 Walt or Wayne, if you have any thoughts on that? 07:21 Yeah, I think one of the things is interesting 07:23 when we're talking about this, we're talking about 07:25 what happens to the other people, 07:27 but we're not talking about what happens 07:29 to the transgender. 07:31 So here we go, we're taking a transgender 07:33 and we're putting him in environments 07:35 we all would agree are going to be difficult. 07:37 If you put the guy with the girls, 07:38 it's going to be difficult. 07:39 If you put him with the boys, it's going to be difficult, 07:41 so it seems to me like, if we look at transgender 07:46 as a behavior and not as an identity 07:49 because that's how I see it and we understand 07:51 that they're damaged. 07:53 You know, we're sitting here, we all had damage in our life. 07:56 We got there through damage. 07:58 And if we understand the cross-dressing 08:00 is actually an abuse in of itself. 08:04 So we have... 08:05 Talk about that for just a moment for our viewers. 08:07 Right. 08:09 Cross-dressing causes emotional, psychological 08:13 and psychiatric damage, because you're telling 08:16 that person that they're not who they are, that's damaging, 08:19 and it causes depression, it causes hurt, it causes pain. 08:24 So if we look at this individual 08:26 that's we're discussing about 08:28 what part of the camp to put him in. 08:30 It would seem to me like, psychologically the best thing 08:33 is not to place him in camp at all. 08:36 The kid should stay home. 08:37 Now, you know, caring about them is also being honest 08:42 with them and loving on them... 08:44 Wait, say that again 'cause that's beautiful. 08:47 Caring for them is being honest with them and honesty means 08:51 that you have to confront people with issues 08:54 that are not appropriate. 08:55 For a boy to act out being a girl 08:58 and that's just acting out. 08:59 And if we understand, the compassion comes 09:02 from understanding, they're not doing it deliberately. 09:05 They're doing it because something happened, 09:07 because there is some unfortunate event whether 09:11 it's a trauma or loss or whatever it is, 09:14 whether it's sexual abuse. 09:16 I found many of the transgenders 09:18 have been sexually abused like I was. 09:20 So if we look at this and understand that 09:23 they've had some trauma or event in their life 09:27 then withholding them from camp is not really abusing them 09:31 or denying them, it's actually helping them not get 09:34 into a situation, that's going to make their gender dysphoria 09:38 and their life more difficult. 09:40 So holding them back is better for them 09:41 than putting him in an environment 09:43 that's not going to be good for them. 09:44 All right, so I think it's important to show that 09:48 in helping the person with transgender ideation. 09:51 That it's not beneficial to encourage them 09:54 to identify as the opposite sex. 09:57 Absolutely, because all you're doing 10:00 is enabling them to use this behavior 10:05 to continue dealing with the depression 10:08 and other issues, 10:10 and not dealing with the core issue of-- 10:12 I always like to sit down with transgenders and say, 10:15 tell me about what happened, when did this start? 10:18 Because we can sit here 10:19 and we can all identify with when it started. 10:21 Would we take the time? 10:23 Would the pastor of the church sit down long enough, 10:25 to sit down and evaluate, when did this happen? 10:28 When did you first see this occur? 10:30 Was it, you know, did somebody die in the family? 10:33 Where you sexually abused? Was there a loss? 10:36 I have found 100 percent of the time, 10:39 if we take the time 10:40 and loving, care and compassion for that child. 10:44 We can get the massage 10:46 of why they're acting out as a transgender 10:48 when in fact, they were badly abused. 10:51 Yeah, Wayne? 10:54 So, yeah, that opens up two things 10:57 and that it is now a multiple level. 10:59 Now it's the transgender and it's the parents, 11:03 and so you might in some situations 11:06 get permission to speak to the transgender. 11:08 But how do you get to the parents 11:10 that are now endorsing the behavior, 11:14 they just want them to be happy at what level, 11:16 and the pastor doesn't seem to be educated, 11:19 and so they're not exactly sure about what to do. 11:22 So we understand it, 11:23 how can we go about implementing the knowledge 11:28 and the information that would be so helpful to them. 11:31 Well, a lot of parents are going to recheck the idea, 11:33 you know, if you're trying to tell them 11:35 that their kid has something going wrong with him, 11:38 that they're depressed or whatever. 11:40 Parents are not necessarily going to embrace that idea 11:42 because it may have a reflection on them. 11:44 In fact, sometimes it doesn't come in the home. 11:47 Maybe it was a neighborhood child, 11:49 maybe it was some other event so. 11:51 You know, we don't have to point to the parents 11:53 and say it was the parents fault. 11:54 We don't really know at this point. 11:57 So I think it's important 11:59 when we're dealing with transgenders in the church 12:01 to understand that we may not have success. 12:03 We may not be able to convince the parents 12:06 that this is appropriate and there may be conflict. 12:09 This is a very troubling and difficult issue. 12:12 If we're looking to try to just appease everybody, 12:16 we're going to end up actually damaging the child 12:19 and not coming to a good solution. 12:21 So I think if we can drive home the point, 12:24 that we have somebody who really needs some care, 12:27 some psychological care 12:28 and not place them in environments 12:31 that are going to harm them, 12:33 we're going to be better off, 12:34 but don't expect the parents to go along with it. 12:36 Right. Okay. 12:38 So, it brings up a question in my mind 12:40 and so there was a situation 12:43 where there was a transgendered male to female at this church. 12:47 And I thought that because I come from gay culture, 12:49 I'd seen men in dresses, 12:50 I'd seen all kinds of different gender confusion. 12:53 I thought, oh, this is a no-brainer. 12:54 But when I was actually confronted with this person, 12:57 I'm telling you, I felt like I was at a total loss, 12:59 and here I am in ministry, 13:01 so one of the things that I find so confusing is, 13:06 do I approach this person as a gender they prefer to be, 13:09 do I approach him as a gender that they are 13:12 without being disrespectful. 13:13 How can I uphold the Christian standard 13:17 and God's plea for them 13:18 to claim who He created them to be, 13:21 and at the same time not disrespect them 13:23 or build a wall of defense against them. 13:26 So can we talk about that for a moment? 13:28 Sure. 13:30 Yeah, I think in my particular position, 13:32 what I do is I use the word neutral. 13:35 And so you don't push either side, 13:37 because you know if you few push them, 13:39 if they're man 13:40 and you're trying to overemphasize their manhood, 13:43 you're going to offend them. 13:44 And if you're too much going toward the feminism side of it, 13:49 you're actually enabling them 13:51 to enhance this vision of who they're-- 13:54 And affirming. Okay. And affirming them. 13:56 And so, if you stay neutral and not get in that zone 13:58 and just stay with the issues 14:00 that you're talking to them about 14:02 and stay focused on that. 14:03 I don't use gender names. 14:07 I just use their last name or I avoid them all together. 14:10 Okay, so how would that look, Mr. Smith? 14:13 Well, I can talk to you all day long 14:15 and never use a male identity or I never use your first name, 14:19 and still have good conversation 14:21 and still get information from you 14:23 without using the pronouns. 14:25 Okay. Wayne? 14:29 Yeah, I'm looking at that from a church-- 14:33 In a church environment 14:35 because we're having that so much more today 14:38 with the whole idea of love and acceptance. 14:41 We're doing this with the LGBT 14:44 which of course the transgender is involved 14:47 and so leadership 14:49 and pastors are beginning to affirm people. 14:53 Well, how do we hold that? 14:54 I think you have some of the information 14:56 about some Bible references and helpfulness on this topic. 15:02 We recently have somebody 15:04 who has been ordained as a transgenderd 15:07 elder in the church today. 15:09 Well, you know, I look at this, 15:12 I look at things very simply to begin with 15:14 because I'm a simple person, 15:16 and it's easier to understand in a simple way. 15:19 And if someone who claims to be transgender 15:22 or who identifies he's transgender 15:24 or who's behaving as a transgender 15:28 wants to have the leadership 15:30 or being in a leadership role in the church. 15:32 I think it's totally appropriate 15:34 to not allow them to be in leadership in the church. 15:36 Okay. 15:37 Because, again we go back to the fact 15:39 that God made them who they were born as. 15:43 And so, if we're not doing what my grandmother didn't do 15:47 and supporting that birth gender. 15:49 We're actually going against the God's will, 15:50 aren't we? 15:52 And so, if a person is acting out 15:55 this transgender behavior, 15:57 they're actually being defiant toward God. 16:01 So if we look at this from a defiant standpoint 16:04 and we can understand that, 16:07 you know, not being uncompassionate about it, 16:10 they're defiant because they're injured. 16:12 They're hurting, they have deep hurts. 16:15 We need to get to the deep hurt 16:17 for them to be able to come out and be who they really are. 16:20 Right now they're dealing, 16:22 they're showing a different identity 16:24 as a way to cope with their hurt. 16:27 All right, so the analogy that I see is that, 16:30 here we have a wound, a deep wound. 16:32 Right. 16:33 And so what's happen is that wound is healed over, 16:35 may be that's the transgender issue 16:37 that, you know, I feel like I'm a female 16:39 trapped in a male body. 16:40 So the compassionate a part of the church is like, 16:44 that's been promoted now, 16:45 it's just you just leave that wound, 16:47 infected underneath that's healed over 16:49 and it affects the blood, 16:51 the heart, the mind and all that. 16:53 And so, you can refer to them 16:55 as the sex that they desire to be. 16:57 But you haven't addressed the real issue 16:59 and a real compassionate pastor or church, 17:03 what they're going to do 17:04 is they're going to engage with this person. 17:06 They're going to connect with them, 17:08 and then they're going to go through the process 17:09 of opening up that scar and dealing with the infection 17:13 because the infection isn't going to go away 17:15 by just giving you the name or the gender that you desire, 17:19 instead it's a process, a committed process 17:22 of opening that up and cleaning up that infection, 17:24 and then allowing it to heal from the inside out. 17:27 Isn't that right? That is beautiful. 17:29 I couldn't have said it better, but that's exactly right. 17:32 You know, I think if we can capture that in the church 17:35 and understand that they are deeply hurt. 17:37 They're wounded and they need our love, 17:41 but they also need the love of truth. 17:44 And I don't think enabling people to act out in a behavior 17:48 that's come out of some deep hurt is appropriate 17:52 or helping them in any way shape or form, 17:55 because what we see today 17:58 is we know the transgender population, 18:00 because they're not getting help 18:02 for that deep wound. 18:03 They're not seeing those things heal 18:05 that are deep down inside. 18:07 We see this population attempting suicide 18:10 at a rate of 40% or more. 18:12 So if you look at attempted suicides 18:16 and realize that people who are happy with themselves 18:19 and are enjoying life and are living 18:22 a psychologically well established healthy life. 18:26 They don't attempt suicide, do they? 18:27 No. 18:29 So we must have a population then 18:32 of people who are deeply hurt 18:34 and are not getting the psychological 18:37 and psychiatric help they need to avoid committing suicide. 18:40 And I think it's fair to know that, 18:43 you come from not a position of judgment 18:45 or looking at someone. 18:47 You come from that example yourself, 18:48 you've come from that experience 18:50 and so it isn't like, 18:52 we're sitting loathing over transgenders 18:54 and telling them what their problem is. 18:56 We're finding compassion to say, 18:58 listen, I was with you 19:00 and this is what I struggled with too. 19:01 I identify with you but this is not the answer. 19:05 Isn't that right? Wayne, you wanted to share. 19:07 Yeah, because of the acceptance of the damaged behavior 19:10 and thinking that we're showing love, 19:13 now we're damaging the entire church body. 19:16 And by, in my church 19:18 we accommodated a repentant transgender who-- 19:23 it's interesting that we don't look at 19:25 what that repentance looks like. 19:27 What would be the behavior modification 19:29 of a transgendered, 19:30 I mean, of a repentant transgender? 19:33 Because in this large church, 19:35 we've opened the door to the women's restroom, 19:38 and now we pose 19:40 a very contrasting acceptance 19:45 or, you know, consideration about the fact 19:50 that now I'm standing in the women's restroom 19:52 with multiple styles in front of young children 19:55 and usually it's younger children 19:58 and older ladies that are shocked, 20:01 because the middle-aged people are like, 20:03 they're just out in society, 20:05 they're being thrown all kinds of things, 20:08 it's not a shocking to them. 20:09 In church environments, the pastor is like, 20:13 well, I don't know, we just need to show love here, 20:16 and then the church board takes the lead from the pastor, 20:20 it gets very confusing. 20:22 What do you do in situations 20:24 about bringing some sense of redemptive look 20:28 to this situation? 20:29 Well, again, I always go back 20:31 and look at the other side, you know. 20:32 What about the women in a bathroom, 20:34 the church's job is to protect them and-- 20:37 Well, that's to establish the fact 20:39 that if the law stands the way it is, 20:41 that a man who hasn't had any surgery 20:44 that's just wearing a dress, 20:45 he could even have a mustache and a beard, 20:47 he's allowed to use a women's rest room. 20:50 You can be called a transgender and in the State of Florida, 20:53 you can have your birth certificate changed 20:55 even though you never have had any of the surgery done. 20:57 So now you have people men, physical men 21:01 that are coming into a bathroom, 21:02 into a women's bathroom at church, 21:04 and when you've got small children 21:06 and that kind of thing so, 21:08 who protects the small child 21:09 from being exposed to male genitalia, 21:11 a small female child 21:13 before she is ready to see that. 21:15 Well, unfortunately that's a big issue, isn't it? 21:18 And so, this is why in my mind, 21:21 I know this is sort of a overall simple solution 21:24 but, you know, I look to bathrooms in the future 21:26 to be, just for the individuals in that community bathrooms 21:30 where you've been invaded by people 21:32 who are doing this kind of behavior, 21:34 so you'd have a door, you can come in and lock 21:36 and you're in there with your family 21:38 and it's just a small bathroom that no one else can access. 21:41 And that may be the bathroom of the future 21:44 to protect young people, protect women, 21:47 we've already seen one person go into a bathroom 21:50 in another state in this country 21:52 that did molest somebody in and hurt them badly. 21:55 So we know that there are predators out there, 21:58 who have a mindset to do something, 22:01 but generally speaking 22:03 those who are not all the transgenders, 22:04 but they do cause people great deal of trauma 22:09 and difficulty when they enter a bathroom 22:11 and they look like a man. 22:12 And I don't think 22:14 they should be allowed to go in there in my view. 22:16 Well, I think it bears repeating. 22:17 We've done an earlier broadcast 22:20 so, Walt, would you tell us what your experience was like, 22:23 when you came into church culture 22:25 as a female, as Laura, 22:27 what the response from the church was 22:28 because I think that was powerful. 22:30 Yeah, the very first time I went in as Laura 22:32 and my counselor at the time had called the church pastor 22:37 and asked if it was okay that I went to that church 22:40 because he knew the pastor, 22:42 he is a friend of his and he said, 22:43 I have Laura, a transgender, would it be okay, 22:45 he struggled to get in a church and he said, sure bring him on. 22:48 So I came, I signed in as Laura in the guestbook, 22:53 and all these ladies came around me 22:55 because I was a new comer, we all sat together, 22:57 and one of them was the pastor's wife, 22:59 we had a great exchange 23:01 and his wife begin to talk to me a lot. 23:04 She liked talking to me, and she said, 23:06 well, we have a teas and coffees and, you know, 23:09 she was sort of encouraging me to get involved. 23:12 And so, I went outside after church 23:14 and had little coffee and went home, 23:16 and I though it was like outstanding 23:18 because the pastor's wife now 23:20 is really embracing me into the church community. 23:23 Well, that afternoon later on I saw a car pull up 23:27 and the door open and I went, there is a pastor, 23:30 the guy who gave the massage on Sunday is coming to see me, 23:33 this is got to be great. 23:34 He knocked down the door, I opened up the door 23:36 and I said, hello, and he walked inside and says, 23:39 we don't want your kind in our church, 23:41 and I looked at him and I said, oh that's good, 23:44 what kind do you want? 23:47 What did he said? What did he said? 23:48 He said nothing and left and turned around walked away, 23:51 but to me that really proved to me 23:54 about the difficulty that transgenders have 23:57 and being able to get, you know, 24:00 inside the church and be accepted. 24:02 Even though he knew I was showing up. 24:04 I think his wife's acceptance of me 24:07 and wanting to expand that acceptance out 24:09 within the church begin to trouble him so much. 24:12 He wasn't going to allow it to happen. 24:13 So, Walt, now we have this situation 24:16 where we have people that are actually saying, 24:18 oh it's no problem, come on in as you are, 24:20 we'll call you whatever sex you desired to be, 24:23 and then the other extreme, that's not beneficial, 24:26 and then you have the other extreme 24:27 of total rejection. 24:29 This I think is much more prevalent in Christianity 24:32 because of a misunderstanding 24:33 or the fact that this is so distasteful, 24:36 just give them what they want, 24:38 so that I don't have to be involved. 24:39 Isn't that kind of 24:41 what you were referring to at one point? 24:42 Yeah, and I think it's important 24:43 to understand it the distinction. 24:45 I had gone through surgery, I had a new birth certificate, 24:48 all my identity was female. 24:50 I was a female in every way shape or form. 24:53 So I was not, you know, standing there as a man 24:56 claming to be a female 24:57 and being accepted by the church. 24:59 I was accepted because 25:01 I'd already gone through the surgery 25:02 and had everything put together, you say. 25:06 And so, I was there actually, isn't it interesting 25:09 that a transgenders even going to church 25:11 and seeking out the Lord, some one should get a clue, 25:15 you know, that they're for a reason. 25:16 Yeah. 25:18 And so you response, well, what kind do you want 25:19 in your church, I think was a perfect response 25:22 to challenge the pastor's, you know, dismissal of you, 25:25 and the fact that you are still a soul for the kingdom. 25:28 All right and so another question that I have is, 25:30 you know, what should the position be 25:34 to accept transgenders into church culture 25:36 because we're going to see that more as time goes on. 25:39 Well, it's going to be different for every church, 25:41 there's no question about that. 25:43 Every leadership is going to see this issue differently 25:45 depending on their leadership position, 25:48 but I think it's important for people 25:51 and I've always suggested 25:52 that people sit down with that transgender, 25:54 don't just allow them in. 25:56 Somebody has in the church has to become a mentor. 25:59 And actually be with that person 26:02 and learn about their life, 26:03 take them to coffee, spend time with them 26:07 to begin to understand how they got that way, 26:09 where they're coming from. 26:11 The importance as we know in building a relationship 26:15 with Jesus Christ, we get healed overtime, 26:18 it doesn't happen in a lightning bolt, 26:20 you know, so if we're going to learn 26:22 about who the transgender is and what he's struggling with, 26:25 we're going to have to spend in relationship 26:28 with that transgender. 26:29 I would be very concerned 26:32 about allowing them a great access 26:34 if they haven't had surgery 26:36 and they haven't had all the trappings 26:38 where they can identify legally as a female, 26:42 which is going to be more and more of those 26:43 who just come in and say, 26:45 I'm a female and they're gonna look like a man, 26:46 and I think it's important 26:48 for the church to really get a grip 26:50 on spending time with these people, 26:52 and they may need to set aside a small group of mentors 26:56 who deal with it and just spend time with them 26:59 who have a good grasp of how to deal with it 27:02 and the leadership then can get together 27:04 and decide as a church, 27:06 how do we want to deal with this, 27:07 do we want, you know, 27:09 whatever it is to deal with that 27:11 and put him in a small group, I think it's good for them 27:13 to be in a small groups in church 27:15 to be loved on and cared for and prayed about 27:18 and the church I went into, they started a prayer letter 27:22 and allowed me to write out a prayer letter 27:24 and talk about the struggles that was having in the church. 27:26 So then it helped 27:27 and eventually that built to like 27:29 35 people in the church 27:30 they was reading that prayer letter 27:32 and so they knew what was going on 27:34 and then they could get together with the elders 27:37 and talk about how to heal that. 27:38 Right so this is a process, 27:41 we're going to need education 27:42 in our pastors in the leadership 27:44 and they're going to have to really go much deeper 27:46 than what we have time for. 27:48 We want to thank you again, Walt and Wayne, 27:50 for participating today on our program. 27:53 Hope you'll come back and join us 27:54 on Pure Choices again. 27:56 Thank you, guys. |
Revised 2016-06-09