Participants: Wayne Blakely (Host), Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000119A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:04 Parents are cautioned 00:05 that some material may be too candid 00:07 for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:41 I'm Wayne Blakely from Coming Out Ministries here 00:44 with my colleague, Ron Woolsey. 00:46 Thanks for joining us today. 00:48 I'm going to talk about a topic here 00:51 a little bit more serious, 00:54 but I think a very necessary point 00:58 in regards to the conversation today, 01:01 with regards to homosexuality identifying as gay, 01:05 Christian, etcetera. 01:09 A lot has been lost today 01:11 with regards to inappropriate identifying. 01:15 I think we're losing something there, 01:17 don't you think Ron? 01:20 You recently wrote an article called The Prefix Christian 01:25 and it sounds a little bit strange 01:27 in the title. 01:28 What was your thinking here and how did you come up 01:31 with the title like that? 01:32 Well, you know, it just dawned on me 01:35 over a long period of time, 01:36 actually is a long dawn but anyway. 01:39 That as you look around Christianity this day, 01:42 Christianity is quite fragmented. 01:45 There are just not only many denominations 01:49 but within denominations 01:51 you have contemporary, you have liberal, 01:54 you have social Christians, you have nondenominational, 01:59 of course that's not a denomination 02:00 but it may actually be a denomination, 02:03 because there are so many nondenominational churches. 02:05 Right. 02:07 And so I just started thinking, 02:09 why is it necessary to have all of these prefixes attached 02:14 to the word "Christian"? 02:16 So perhaps, we should actually talk 02:17 about the meaning of the word "Christian". 02:21 Yes. 02:23 Back in the beginning, we're all... 02:26 First of all, if we just look 02:27 at what the word "Christian" means. 02:30 It means someone who's a disciple of Christ 02:32 and a disciple of Christ is someone who is entering 02:36 into the discipline 02:38 that goes into that discipleship. 02:41 A person who accepts Christ as a mentor, 02:44 someone to pattern his life after 02:47 and to know how to be Christ like, 02:51 we have to listen to Christ. 02:53 We have to listen to His words, His teachings and so today, 02:59 we do that through reading His Word, 03:02 listening to His Word, 03:03 contemplating and listening to the Holy Spirit. 03:07 So that we're following the guidelines of someone 03:11 that we call Lord and Master. 03:14 So the focus is Christ, 03:17 His word, and His guidance to us 03:19 that is for all time. 03:20 Right. 03:22 If we're going to be a Christian, 03:24 then we need to be like Christ. 03:26 Yeah, and so what would be a prefix Christian? 03:31 Well, this idea of prefix 03:34 what we know back in the very beginning, 03:37 if a person was labeled a Christian, 03:40 everyone knew what that meant 03:43 because that was a new movement 03:45 out of the Jewish church, 03:48 and so in the very beginning it was a pure word Christian. 03:53 But very early on in the New Testament, 03:56 we see Paul dealing with prefix Christians 04:00 because he was reproving a number of Christians 04:04 in 1 Corinthians 1, 04:07 he was reproving them for saying 04:09 that I'm of Apollo sin, I'm of Cephas sin, 04:12 well, I'm of the Apostle Paul. 04:14 And he says, wait a minute, 04:16 but Paul didn't die for you, Christ died for you. 04:19 We were to be Christians 04:21 not Apollo's Christians, Cephas' Christians 04:24 and Pauline Christians but Christians. 04:27 So we see that that prefix started 04:31 the concept of prefixes 04:33 being added to Christianity started early on, 04:35 but then also 04:38 as you go through church history 04:40 during the reformation 04:42 as The Protestant Reformation got going, 04:46 there were a number of Protestants, 04:48 reformers that were opening windows of light 04:52 upon the darkness of the dark ages. 04:55 And as these reformers began to die off, 04:57 their followers formed creeds around each of them, 05:01 and that's how we have today Lutherans and... 05:03 Right. 05:04 Baptists and Calvinists 05:05 or Presbyterians and Methodists, 05:08 so those prefixes were coming in during that time as well. 05:13 So now we have just hundreds of prefixes today. 05:20 Actually to add a prefix to the word "Christian", 05:23 that has probably two purposes. 05:27 One is to clarify your understanding of the word 05:31 and so for example, a Methodist Christian 05:35 is one who is a Christian based upon 05:38 what they understand 05:39 and how it spelt out in the Methodist theology, 05:43 Baptist and Seventh-day Adventist 05:45 and so forth. 05:46 But then there is also the prefix 05:48 that doesn't just clarify the meaning of the word, 05:51 but it actually modifies 05:53 or alters the meaning altogether 05:56 and that's what I'm concerned with today. 05:58 So something unthinkable 06:01 when I grew up and with the advance of time 06:04 and with the progression of this earth 06:06 and also the great controversy that's going on. 06:10 We see changes beginning to take place 06:13 even in Christian universities. 06:15 So while I would have never identified 06:18 or had a group on campus that I could have gone to 06:23 as a kid and as a gay or homosexual, 06:29 today the environment on Christian universities 06:33 has drastically changed 06:35 and that we are opening up to the world language, 06:40 the world of affirmation 06:42 which is coming through the LGBT community today. 06:47 Being indoctrinated on campuses today, 06:50 through organizations, 06:52 straight gay alliances, etcetera 06:54 and adopting different terminology today, 06:58 like, gay Christian, bisexual Christian and so on. 07:04 And your estimation is there something wrong 07:06 in identifying like this. 07:09 This to me is a very disturbing trend 07:12 and it all comes, 07:15 coming about by this great effort 07:17 to normalize the gay behavior, 07:22 LGBT behavior. 07:25 For millennia, this has been something 07:28 that has been totally taboo, 07:30 it is been illegal in the past, 07:34 but now there is this great effort to normalize it. 07:38 And so not long ago of course we had the Supreme Court ruling 07:42 just this last year, 07:44 not even a year ago 07:46 that is now trying to normalize, 07:49 the ruling is to normalize gay marriage. 07:52 So with all of this going on, 07:54 we see Christians in the church 07:57 that are dealing with the gay issue, 07:59 they have been brought up in Christian culture 08:03 but they're dealing with homosexual tendencies 08:05 or even indulging in homosexual behavior 08:08 and, but they want to continue their profession as Christian, 08:13 so they're trying to hang on to both worlds. 08:18 So some of these "Gay Christians" 08:23 are living celibate lives and that's a good thing, 08:28 but they want to keep the identity as gay. 08:30 Right, yeah. 08:31 And that here we're getting into this prefix... 08:36 Yeah, it's confusing. 08:37 And so when you call yourself a gay Christian, 08:42 if you're a celibate doesn't that mean 08:44 you know something is wrong with being gay 08:47 because every Christian 08:49 should be celibate outside of marriage. 08:51 So we don't go around saying 08:54 that I'm a heterosexual Christian. 08:57 No. 08:59 A celibate heterosexual Christian, 09:00 we're just Christians, you know. 09:01 Right. 09:03 So to me if you're hanging on to that label, that prefix, 09:09 it indicates something is still going on in the heart. 09:10 Right. 09:12 Now you may be celibate 09:13 but what's really going on in the heart 09:14 because the sins of the heart 09:17 actually precede the sins of overt behavior. 09:22 To someone who loves God and who identifies, 09:26 let's say today as a gay Christian. 09:28 I wanna reach out and say that there's something more 09:32 that's possible through Jesus Christ 09:35 that maybe people don't stop and consider, 09:38 identifying as a gay Christian, 09:41 kind of, it separates you from the church body, 09:44 it puts you off in like a different section 09:47 or that you've got different rights 09:48 or, you know, something different... 09:49 In a category. Yeah. 09:51 And so, I mean you came out of homosexuality 09:54 out of the gay culture 24 years ago, 09:58 how do you identify today? 09:59 Do you have any modifiers? 10:02 Well, you've heard me say this many times 10:06 and it's really absolutely true what I did. 10:10 I found through the Bible there are many helpful tips 10:14 on how to transform or allow the mind 10:18 to be transformed 10:20 bringing every thought into captivity 10:22 on to the obedience of Christ 10:23 and letting his mind be in me which is also in Christ Jesus, 10:28 many texts like that. 10:31 What I did, I went through a mental exercise 10:34 in which I took my homosexuality 10:38 and I hung it on the forbidden tree 10:39 in the Garden of Eden. 10:41 Mm-hmm. 10:42 And I just made a decision 10:45 no matter how delectable that fruit, 10:47 it's on the wrong tree. 10:48 Yeah. 10:50 It's not an option, it's off limits 10:52 and I turned my back on that 10:54 but not just on that, Wayne. 10:56 I turned my back on a number of vices. 10:58 Sure. 11:00 Well, I have turned my back on lusting period 11:02 because that's just as much seen 11:04 as overt behavior. 11:06 Alcohol, tobacco, drugs and many other things 11:11 I turned my back on. 11:13 Now today, I did not identify myself 11:18 as a non-practicing pothead Christian 11:21 or a non-practicing lusting Christian. 11:23 Right. 11:24 Or, you know, 11:25 certainly not a gay Christian and I... 11:27 Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. 11:28 You know, we were talking to a group of pastors 11:30 while back and I just mentioned 11:33 trying to make this point, 11:35 if I were to come into your church and identify 11:38 as a non-practicing pedophile Christian, 11:42 could I have membership 11:43 and could I have a church office 11:45 and I really enjoy working with children by the way. 11:48 You know, the reaction was quite noticeable, 11:51 so I like to think consistently, 11:54 if a prefix doesn't work here, 11:58 then why do we take a prefix here 12:01 and attach it and say, 12:02 that's a new normal within the church. 12:05 Yeah, so if we're altering, 12:08 basically beginning to alter the meaning of the word 12:11 "Christian", does that then have some long-term effect 12:17 with regards to how we're supposed 12:18 to be reaching out in the mission 12:20 that God has given us to the world today. 12:22 Oh, absolutely, it does because for example, 12:27 there are now calls upon Christians 12:30 that are beginning to give into this pressure 12:33 to stop using certain words and phrases 12:37 because they're offensive to the gay community, 12:41 the LGBT community. 12:43 And so to me this call in and of itself for Christians 12:49 to not use these words 12:51 if you want to reach the LGBT community tells me 12:57 that Christian and LGBT are not compatible, right? 13:02 Or why would a Christian have to be so careful about words 13:06 that they use it kind of shows me 13:11 that gay Christian is an oxymoron 13:14 because the gays, 13:15 they don't use these Christian words 13:18 if you're talking to us. 13:20 You know, these attempts to muzzle Christians, 13:23 I've seen recently by suggesting certain things 13:27 as unacceptable speech 13:30 and there's a whole list of things 13:32 that we're as Christians ask not to use any more. 13:36 And first of all, 13:38 I think if we're having to do that, 13:40 that kind of demonstrates the weakness of our position 13:45 if we can't face difference of opinion 13:48 or some other ideas. 13:49 But some of these things are just so embedded 13:53 within Christian thinking and preaching and teaching, 13:56 for example, 13:58 love the sinner but hate the sin, 14:01 revving us not to use that anymore. 14:04 The Bible clearly says, 14:06 Can you imagine a Christian not using the phrase, 14:10 "the Bible clearly says", 14:13 but we're being asked not to say 14:14 that anymore. 14:15 Homosexuality is a sin, 14:18 we're not supposed to say that anymore. 14:19 Right. But the Bible does. 14:21 Yeah. 14:22 And Jesus can change you that's not acceptable. 14:26 Go and sin no more. 14:28 Wayne, these are words, 14:30 some of these are words that Jesus Christ Himself said, 14:35 and so we're being asked to not even use 14:39 the words of Jesus Christ... 14:41 Yeah. 14:42 In order to relate to the gay community, 14:44 that tells me there's a serious problem 14:46 within the gay Christian community 14:50 if you cannot use the words of Christ. 14:52 Right. 14:53 Yet, you're calling yourself Christian. 14:55 Yeah, that's adaptation. Right. 14:57 And that's equating human knowledge 15:00 instead of God's knowledge. 15:02 It seems that more and more Christians 15:04 are kowtowing to demands of the gay agenda, 15:10 when we should be promoting 15:12 the message of hope of healing, 15:14 repentance, 15:16 and yet it doesn't seem to me that from many 15:20 in the Christian community today 15:23 that there is a call to repentance. 15:26 I sometimes hear sermons, 15:28 and I'm embarrassed by some Christians 15:30 who go at homosexuality with a sludge hammer, 15:34 but then on the other hand I'm hearing 15:36 and just as offended by preachers 15:40 who are taking the pulpit and giving the impression 15:44 that it doesn't matter to God who you love. 15:49 Well, that is not Biblical, 15:53 but this point you're making about the church giving 15:58 into these things and kowtowing. 16:01 I was on a plane with a lady not long ago, 16:04 we got into quite a conversation 16:05 because I was sharing my testimony with her 16:08 and she was a Christian and she said, 16:11 "You know, I used to be of a certain denomination." 16:13 Well, she said, "I used to be Baptist." 16:16 And our church split over this gay issue. 16:19 Mm-hmm. 16:20 So now I'm a Presbyterian as you said, 16:23 now our church is splitting over 16:25 this gay issue. 16:26 Why the split? 16:27 Because some in the church are giving in 16:30 and some are standing firm on the Word of God. 16:32 Right. 16:34 And I just praise the Lord, in every denomination 16:36 there are Christians 16:38 that are trying to stand solidly 16:40 on the Word of God while others are giving in. 16:43 Now I recently took notes on a sermon 16:48 that I was watching a television sermon, 16:51 and the preacher was speaking 16:54 from official written statement 16:58 about this where the gay issue is, 17:00 you know, coming front and center and I just... 17:04 Was a precision statement. 17:06 It was a precision statement 17:08 and so he was quoting from this, 17:10 and I had to watch it twice 17:13 to really catch what was going on 17:14 but I could see the real dangers 17:16 they were developing here. 17:18 For example, he was reading, 17:19 there are those among us 17:21 who self identify as gay or lesbian 17:24 who follow Jesus with all their hearts, 17:26 that struck me as odd. 17:29 They're identifying as gay or lesbian 17:31 and yet following Jesus with all their hearts. 17:34 Jesus who says that this is not good behavior. 17:39 But it says they struggle with a celibacy 17:42 he's calling them to embrace. 17:44 Well, I think probably every single Christian 17:47 is expected to be celibate and may even struggle with it, 17:52 but this statement is talking about their struggle 17:55 with gay single people, 17:57 and so it's like elevating the segment of the church 18:02 to a different position. 18:05 It can be a desperate struggle and the statement says, 18:08 "Which is why the church or the community of Jesus, 18:11 the family of God 18:12 must be a place of refuge, safety, 18:15 healing for heterosexual and homosexual 18:18 and that's true..." 18:19 Mm-hmm, sure. 18:21 "A place of compassion and confidentiality." 18:23 But notice the statement says healing 18:26 and as I listen to the whole statement, 18:28 I begin to wonder, what kind of healing? 18:30 Healing of hurts, healing of being offended, 18:33 healing of discrimination, they're feeling rejected, 18:38 or is it a healing of the hearts? 18:41 And I got the impression from the statement 18:43 that it's talking more about the healing of being hurt 18:47 and looked down upon or whatever. 18:50 And the healing that needs to take place 18:52 of course is the healing 18:54 that leads to transformation of mind 18:57 as well as behavior. 18:59 But the sermon went on to say quoting from this statement, 19:02 "Non-practicing gay persons should be welcomed 19:06 into membership and church office." 19:09 And that's where I came up with this thing 19:10 about non-practicing pedophiles, 19:15 non-practicing adulterer who is not practicing. 19:18 You know, why do we have to say we're non-practicing, 19:21 if we are being converted we're turning our back on this. 19:25 So why do we have to keep carrying a label. 19:26 I know we take gay out of 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 10 19:31 that lists this exhaustive list of sinners, 19:35 we take the homosexual and we're giving... 19:36 Just that one. 19:38 Yeah, that's the only one. 19:39 And there is a whole list of them. 19:41 Yeah. 19:42 That's a very good point, Wayne. 19:43 But it goes on to say, 19:45 all should receive spiritual care 19:46 from the church and that's true but at that point, 19:48 the pastor interrupted the reading 19:51 and then he interpreted what he was reading. 19:53 And he said, 19:54 "It does not matter how you identify yourself. 19:58 You are welcome in membership and leadership." 20:02 That's what they're saying. 20:03 Now that really caught my attention. 20:05 Yeah. 20:07 And then he continued with the statement, 20:09 "We stand against any antipathy 20:11 or hostility towards homosexuals..." 20:13 Mm-hmm. 20:14 I agree. That's correct, yeah. 20:15 "As well as any cultural biases that fuel a lack 20:18 of Christ-like love for them..." 20:20 And then it goes on to say, 20:22 "We strongly affirm that homosexual persons 20:25 have a place in the church." 20:28 Now this statement doesn't say non-practicing celibate, 20:32 it just says homosexual. 20:34 So it almost goes from 180 to 180 back and forth. 20:38 And I know we've been told, 20:40 well, it's just a matter of semantics 20:42 but, Wayne, you and I know 20:44 from where we come from that words matter. 20:47 They do. Don't they? 20:48 Yeah. 20:50 So this statement to me allows for the "Prefix Christian" 20:53 to assume not only membership and leadership 20:56 alongside those who are accepting salvation 21:01 from sin and a new identity in Christ. 21:03 But it offers them an equal voice, 21:07 an equal vote, and an equal opportunity. 21:11 To me that is problematic. That's a foot in the door. 21:13 Yeah, that's a foot in the door because... 21:14 To promote a new agenda, a different agenda, 21:17 and a biblical agenda. 21:18 Right. 21:20 Because the sin is being attached 21:22 to the name of Christian. 21:23 Because the good news of the gospel 21:25 is about salvation from sin not in sin, 21:29 so now it's beginning to sound like 21:32 the waters are little bit muddied 21:34 with relationship to what God's Word says versus 21:37 this world adaptation. 21:40 Right, and then this just leads me 21:42 into another line of questioning, 21:43 I try to go through things rather logically 21:46 if accepting Jesus as savior, 21:49 if I'm accepting Him as savior from sin 21:53 then why carry that sin as a label? 21:55 Right. It doesn't make sense. 21:57 And if I'm a celibate gay Christian, 22:00 that means I'm suppressing the behavior, 22:03 but what about the lust of the heart? 22:06 If I am carrying that label, am I really starving the old, 22:11 and am I really feeding the new, 22:13 and how am I going to overcome something 22:16 when I keep wearing it as a label. 22:18 Right, right. 22:19 You don't identify as a non smoking Christian 22:22 when you come in and when you've surrendered 22:25 that to Jesus, 22:27 when you've made changes in your life, 22:29 that the Holy Spirit has made changes 22:31 in your life, 22:32 it seems very strange to me 22:34 to lay hold of a past identity. 22:38 This goes along with the lines of, 22:41 when I give my life over to Jesus Christ, 22:43 and I was like, 22:44 well, I need to know who I am today, 22:46 and then the person that helped in my conversion turned 22:49 around and said to me, "Oh, no, you're still gay." 22:50 And then I was like, 22:52 "Well, then, what was the change? 22:53 That's right. 22:54 And, you know, Matthew 7:21 to me 22:56 is a real warning statement from Jesus Himself 23:00 when He says, 23:02 "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, 23:06 shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." 23:09 In other words, 23:10 you may call yourself a Christian, 23:12 that doesn't mean you're going to be in heaven. 23:14 Right. 23:15 And that's just Lord, Lord 23:16 and that's not even talking about prefixes 23:18 but then in John 8, 23:20 Jesus says, "If the Son therefore set you free, 23:24 you are free indeed." 23:26 If I am free... 23:28 That's a promise, yeah. 23:29 And I hung that on that forbidden tree, 23:32 I'm not going to go pluck that fruit 23:34 and carry it around in a basket everywhere I go 23:38 and just try not to eat it. 23:40 I mean, it's on that tree that's where it stays 23:41 and I'm over somewhere, 23:43 I disassociate myself from that altogether. 23:47 That's a part of being, 23:49 you know, having new life in Christ 23:51 and being free indeed. 23:54 So... 23:56 All right, so let's say that we dropped that prefix 24:01 with regards to the Christian. 24:04 So how do we deal 24:05 with ungodly practices and tendencies, temptations? 24:10 Now, and again, the Bible has so many helpful hints 24:13 and I alluded to that, helpful hints. 24:16 And I alluded to that little bit early 24:18 when I was talking about how we are to bring, 24:20 the Christian is to bring every thought 24:21 into captivity under the obedience of Christ 24:25 presenting His body, 24:26 a living sacrifice letting His mind be in Him 24:30 which is also in Christ Jesus. 24:32 Being transformed by the renewing of the mind 24:35 so it can truly be said of him such were some of you. 24:39 Absolutely. Not that you are. 24:40 Right. 24:42 And what we are now is washed, 24:43 sanctified, justified, cleansed. 24:45 Why? 24:47 Because as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. 24:51 If I identify as a gay Christian, 24:54 I am gay... 24:55 Yeah. 24:57 And I don't want to be gay, I want to be Christian. 25:00 Free from being the gay, yeah. 25:01 I want to be free from that 25:02 because 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 10 tells us 25:05 that gays will not be in heaven. 25:06 Right. 25:08 So why do I want to identify as a Christian 25:09 who will not be in heaven? 25:10 Yeah. 25:12 I mean, that's what the word, the prefix, 25:13 that's what it says to me. 25:15 I don't want to associate with something 25:17 that will not be in heaven, I want to be a Christian. 25:20 It's almost as though there is this fear, 25:23 since we've ignored this topic for so long in Christianity 25:27 that by giving true identity 25:30 of who you can be in Jesus Christ, 25:32 it's been interpreted as hate speech, 25:36 it's being interpreted as being unkind to someone 25:40 who suffers from same sex attraction. 25:42 When we should simply call it same sex attraction, 25:45 but now it doesn't say that 25:47 you can't talk about that 25:49 or show that you need help with that, 25:51 but certainly not the need to identify 25:53 and when you have a greater identity 25:55 that God offers you. 25:56 Exactly, and I know you've written articles about this too 25:59 about identity matters, 26:01 and so we both have done a lot of writing 26:03 and talking on this issue. 26:05 So God's plan of salvation from sin 26:08 really does exceed anything 26:10 that we can imagine for ourselves 26:12 that I don't think 26:14 that we're hearing clearly today. 26:17 Do you have any kind of closing remarks about this? 26:20 Oh, yes, in closing I would just contend 26:23 that the prefix Christian 26:25 who attaches sin to his identity 26:28 is really not living up to his Christian potential... 26:31 Yeah. 26:33 Because that is to be removed, 26:36 Jesus came to set us free but he is rather living 26:39 with what is called a patchwork character. 26:42 And I would just like to share this little quote in closing 26:47 that "Christ gives man no encouragement to think 26:51 that he will accept a patchwork character 26:54 made up mostly of self and a little of Christ. 26:57 Soon it is all of self and none of Christ. 27:00 Christ looks with pitying tenderness on all 27:02 who have combination characters." 27:04 That sounds like a prefix character to me. 27:09 "The patchwork religion is not of the least value with God, 27:12 he requires the whole heart. 27:14 No part of it is to be reserved 27:16 for the development of hereditary 27:19 or cultivated tendencies to evil." 27:23 Wow. 27:24 That's very clear to me, Ron, 27:26 and I think that and I hope for anyone 27:28 who is watching that, 27:30 that you digest this and think about 27:33 who your identity really truly is in Jesus Christ, 27:36 gives that some real thought 27:38 and consideration as it relates to a world terminology today 27:42 and Christian terminology and the Word of God. 27:46 Once again, it's been a pleasure to be here 27:47 on Pure Choices to share with you 27:50 and I hope that you will join us 27:52 again real soon here on Pure Choices. 27:55 God bless you. |
Revised 2017-08-03