Participants: Ron Woolsey (Host), Michael Carducci, Wayne Blakely, Danielle Harrison.
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000124A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:43 I'm Ron Woolsey, of Coming Out Ministries. 00:45 And with me today, are my three colleagues, 00:48 Wayne Blakely, Michael Carducci and Danielle Harrison. 00:52 And we're glad to all be together 00:54 on this set today, right? 00:56 Yes, we are. Amen. 00:57 You know, we've all come out of the gay life 01:00 and I'm sure that we all have burdens 01:03 for people we left behind. 01:05 I know, I had quite a burden for friends that I had 01:09 when I left the gay life. 01:11 In fact, I communicated for quite sometime 01:14 with some of them, 01:16 and even with the person that I left behind. 01:19 I tried to witness to him and then I begin to realize 01:22 I'm not the right person 01:24 to be witnessing to the person that I left behind, 01:27 because that kept me emotionally entangled, 01:30 and kept drawing, drawing me back 01:34 into that mindset with him. 01:37 And so I had to turn him over to the Lord. 01:38 But as we minister today 01:44 in this field of ministry, I want to ask you, Danielle, 01:48 what do you believe is the most effective way 01:51 to reach out to friends of ours who are gay 01:54 or people that we meet along the way, 01:56 who are in this LGBT, the culture? 02:01 Oh, I think there are many ways that we can reach out to them 02:04 but since you said, the most effective way, 02:06 then I would say prayer. 02:09 And I say that simply 02:10 because as I look at to Coming Out Ministries, 02:14 the four of us and many of the other volunteers 02:17 who have shared testimonies with our ministry, 02:20 and you know, 02:21 across the board people we've met. 02:23 Prayer has really been a pivotal factor 02:27 for each and everyone of us 02:29 and for each and everyone of them. 02:31 And so I would encourage people to pray 02:34 intentionally and consistently. 02:37 By intentionally, I mean specifically. 02:40 And prayers like my mom prayed, she prayed, 02:42 "Lord, interrupt their plans, interrupt her life, 02:46 convict her of her sins 02:47 and help her to see her need of newness." 02:49 We pray those kind of prayers consistently, 02:52 we can also pray for the Holy Sprit. 02:55 And in Luke 11:13, God promise us 02:57 that if we ask for the Holy Sprit 02:59 then he will be sent. 03:01 And so I would say prayer is the most effective. 03:03 Amen. I agree. 03:05 I think all of us are the recipients 03:07 like you say of prayer. 03:09 I know in my case, 03:11 I found out my father was reading my own testimony 03:14 that he found it amusing that his prayer was right there 03:18 word for word, 03:20 that the Lord would give me no rest day nor night, 03:23 and he said, 03:25 "There's my prayer and there's my answer." 03:27 So yes, I agree that prayer is very effective. 03:32 Michael, in your journey back to the Lord, 03:36 was there anything that you found 03:38 that friends or people in the church did for you 03:42 that helped you along that journey, 03:45 to help bring you back in? 03:47 You know it's amazing as each one of us 03:49 had such a diverse background, 03:50 even though we all struggle the same-sex attraction. 03:53 One of the things that would so incredibly affirming for me, 03:57 God was so intimate that He knew the issue 04:01 that I needed to be address 04:02 and that was really an affirmation 04:03 by other men in the church. 04:05 At a foot washing at this church, 04:07 this man insisted that he wash my feet and I sat down. 04:11 And as he bathe my feet, he merely just said, 04:14 you know, things that were just a affirming. 04:18 Said he appreciated my enthusiasm 04:19 that I was a blessing to the church. 04:22 And those simple things by this man 04:24 that wasn't afraid to touch me, wasn't afraid to affirm me, 04:28 and as he started to pray over me, 04:29 every man in that room 04:31 they was moved by the Holy Sprit. 04:32 They didn't know how to heal someone 04:34 with homosexual past 04:35 or how to deal with my lost manhood, 04:38 but as they were lead by the Holy Sprit, 04:40 each one of them got up and as this man prayed for me, 04:43 each one of them put their hands on my shoulder. 04:45 And that to me, was an affirmation 04:47 that God was saying 04:49 "No, Mike, you're not part of the lady's lunch club, 04:50 you're one of the men." 04:55 I have a follow-up question that comes to mind, 04:57 for you, Michael, when you were going through that process. 05:02 Do you think that compromising on principles or standards 05:08 would have-- 05:09 excuse me, 05:11 would have helped you come to the Lord 05:14 or would have hindered you in that process? 05:16 It would have given me mixed messages, 05:18 it would have made the road 05:19 that was so difficult and long for me anyway, 05:23 it would have made it even more complicated 05:24 because I was trying to compromise myself. 05:28 I was trying to keep my boyfriend, 05:30 I was trying to keep my identity, 05:31 but everywhere I turned I found consistency in God's word, 05:35 I found consistency in God's people 05:37 and as they held up the standard 05:39 then instead of me trying to bring it down to my level 05:42 it helped bring me up to its level. 05:46 I can't help but think that if you had seen compromise 05:50 it would have been a disappointment to you 05:52 because it would not presented something rock solid 05:55 that you could hang on to you. 05:56 I think what it would have done for me, 05:58 would have caused confusion 06:00 and could have possibly been a chasm for me to fall in to. 06:06 Yeah. 06:07 You know, the church has been criticized 06:12 for making many mistakes along the way, 06:14 and I know each one of us, in sharing our own experiences, 06:18 we talk about how the church was not there for us. 06:21 We, no one was talking about the issues, 06:25 there were no resources, we didn't know 06:27 that there was anyone that we could safely go to 06:30 and talk about the issues we were struggling with. 06:32 And so, Wayne, I want to ask you, 06:35 what do you think is the biggest mistake 06:39 that we as Christians make 06:41 in reaching out to the gay people? 06:43 Do we make mistakes? 06:46 Yes, I think there have been mistakes. 06:50 In the past, it was from unintended ignorance. 06:54 Today, I wonder 06:56 if it's from willful ignorance at times. 07:00 Some of the mistakes I think we're making today 07:03 are in not really confirming 07:06 that God has a plan for every life 07:08 and that there is a way out of something 07:10 that doesn't please God. 07:12 I needed someone to come 07:14 and talk to me about my fallen nature 07:17 and my natural inclinations, 07:20 verses what is possible through self denial 07:23 and walking with Jesus Christ. 07:25 So I think that if we can get educated, 07:29 if we would reach out for education about this 07:32 and wanting to move forward 07:34 and educating in the way that God has provided to us 07:37 instead of looking to gloss things over 07:41 or adapt our speech to common terminology. 07:45 And may be from the gay community 07:47 instead of the terminology that God gives us 07:50 in His word about, you know, becoming a new creature 07:53 and who we can be in Jesus Christ, 07:56 you know, that's where I think where our deficit is. 07:59 But I think headways been made, 08:01 I see it happening in this ministry 08:03 as we go from church to church. 08:06 Yes, and I think also in this effort, 08:09 there's like a ditch on either side of the road. 08:13 We're all too familiar with, I know, Mike, 08:16 I've heard you talking about going to gay pride prayers 08:19 and you see the signs that say, 'God hates fagots,' 08:23 and you know, things like that. 08:25 So we have that element within the Christian church 08:30 where people are not caring, they're not loving, 08:33 they're not sympathetic, and understanding. 08:36 And then, on the other side 08:38 we have those that are, 08:44 should I say, too caring, 08:46 they are too timid about sharing the message, 08:51 they try to just except this blind love and acceptance. 08:55 And that, I think could be very, 08:57 either one of those can be very damaging. 08:59 God has a plan in a way 09:02 to present that is very winning, 09:04 it's very solid, that it's very compassionate 09:07 without compromising His principles. 09:10 When we are interacting with gay people, Mike, 09:15 and with the LGBT community, what should be the goal, 09:21 of course, the goal is to win them 09:23 all the way to Christ. 09:24 Can you elaborate on the goal 09:27 when we're talking and interacting 09:29 with gay people? 09:30 Right. 09:31 The goal in my opinion should be 09:33 to meet them where they are, 09:35 as you draw them to Jesus Christ. 09:38 The beautiful thing is, 09:39 nobody got in my way or got in my face 09:42 and told me that my same-sex attraction 09:44 was wrong or against God's will, 09:47 even though it was there in God's word 09:49 that He had more for me than I could possibly imagine. 09:52 But my defenses were so high, there was no way 09:54 that somebody was going to reach me with that approach. 09:57 I needed to see the love of Christ, 09:58 I needed to see it manifested in people, 10:01 I needed to see an investment in me. 10:04 Because again, we've all discussed, 10:05 you know, throughout these programs 10:07 about how we felt rejection 10:09 and that rejection caused this wall to go up, 10:12 especially in Christianity, because most of the offence 10:15 that we experienced came from the church. 10:17 So coming back into the church, it was going to take somebody 10:21 that was willing to look beyond what my need was and to show me 10:24 that my true need was really Jesus Christ. 10:27 And then as I started walking 10:29 in that relationship with Jesus Christ, 10:32 He started to show me 10:33 that my relationship was not in accordance with His word. 10:36 He started to show me 10:38 that I could have new taste, new tendencies, 10:40 you know, as long as I surrendered 10:43 my old tendencies to Him. 10:45 It wasn't an easy process, it wasn't an overnight thing 10:48 but as I walked with Him and as He showed me that, 10:52 that's where the change came. 10:53 So again, the goal should not be 10:56 to convert a homosexual to heterosexuality. 10:59 The goal should be to lift up Jesus. 11:01 Right. 11:03 And I think we've all had people come to us, 11:05 concerned about their children or their brothers 11:08 or a husband or a wife or whatever. 11:12 They want to know, 11:13 how do I turn them away from the gay life? 11:17 And that seems to be 11:18 their total focus first and foremost, 11:22 how do I get them to turn away from the gay life? 11:25 But isn't that first things here? 11:27 Yes, it is. 11:28 Because that's the biggest thing 11:30 in front of them is like, 11:31 my son is gay, my daughter is gay. 11:34 Sure, I understand that. 11:35 And they're very concerned about that. 11:39 But the first thing I ask 11:41 is whether that person is Christian? 11:44 And usually they say, "Well, no, 11:46 they won't have anything to do with the Lord." 11:48 So, then what's the point of working about 11:51 with the gay issue is there? 11:52 What should come first, what should be the goal? 11:55 Prayer, absolutely, we talk about-- 11:57 You want me to go for that person. 11:59 Which person, the parent or the child? 12:00 The gay person. 12:02 The gay person needs to know Jesus. 12:03 Exactly, and you mentioned that, 12:05 I just wanted to capitalize on that seek ye first. 12:08 Right. 12:10 But you know, Ron, most of the time, 12:11 I can't even say the lot, but most of the time 12:14 people wanna know what the answer is, 12:15 when really they had the answer all along. 12:18 Prayer should be the first line of defense 12:20 not the last resort. 12:22 And as we focus on that, 12:24 its amazing to see the confusion on people's faces 12:27 and almost, an indifference like, "Oh, prayer?" 12:30 But really, number one, 12:32 that's why we're all sitting here 12:34 because of that very part, of the prayers of other people 12:37 that were helping to lift us up. 12:38 And I know in my experience as I was studying 12:42 and I was learning about Jesus, 12:45 and I was falling in love with Him as my savior. 12:48 Then I could see that there were things 12:51 that needed to be change in my life, 12:53 I wanted to be more like him. 12:56 As I focused on Jesus, I begin to really despise the things 13:01 that I was involved with. 13:03 And so it really is I think the most important thing 13:07 is to get help them to come to know Jesus 13:11 and develop an intimate relationship. 13:13 And things then just start changing out there 13:16 little by little. 13:18 And the gay issue may be down the list always, 13:21 it may not be the number one. 13:23 Danielle, when interacting with people 13:25 who are in the LGBT community, 13:30 are there parameters that we should draw, are there, 13:33 is there a line that we should not cross? 13:37 How far do we go 13:39 to show this love and compassion 13:44 without condemning 13:46 but then also without condoning? 13:49 Well, you know, Ron, I think that it's important for us 13:52 to remember that with LGBT community 13:56 or any person that we're working with really, 14:00 there is an importance for us to choose their society 14:04 only when there's opportunity to do good for them. 14:08 And when I say that, I mean, you know, 14:10 if we go into certain environment situations, 14:14 experiences with people, 14:17 and the influence of the enemy is there 14:20 then there's obviously, 14:22 there is going be a bridge or wall for us, 14:27 not a bridge but a wall 14:28 for us to be able to share Christ with them, you know. 14:31 If we are striving to help someone 14:34 or minister to someone who struggles with alcoholism, 14:38 we are definitely not gonna go to a bar with them, right? 14:41 So we want to be sure 14:44 that we are reaching out to them in a way 14:46 that doesn't place ourselves in an environment 14:50 where the enemy has a strong hold there. 14:53 So you know, we want to keep ourselves free 14:57 from the demoralizing influences of the world 15:00 and not encourage them in activities 15:03 that are harmful to them. 15:05 So you know, I specially encourage us 15:08 to just invite them into activities that we have, 15:13 that we know that are helpful for them 15:14 and beneficial for them. 15:16 So I think that there are parameters 15:20 in that aspect, 15:21 you know, not doing something that we wouldn't usually do 15:24 in order to able to minister to them. 15:26 But I also think that 15:28 when we're ministering with anyone, 15:30 you know, we place borders not to be alone with people, 15:32 and so we shouldn't, you know, place that border here as well. 15:35 So, you don't think that setting up a ministry 15:38 to go into nightclubs on a regular basis, 15:40 gay bars would be a healthy way to minister? 15:44 I don't think so. Right. 15:45 There are those limitations. 15:47 You know, we think about Jesus, He was accused, 15:50 you know, of being a winebibber and a glutton 15:53 because he mingled with the people that He loved, 15:57 and He wanted to save. 15:59 That I think there is a really fine balance there, 16:02 He was able to do that in a way 16:04 that did not cross those boundaries 16:07 that we're talking about. 16:08 He loved being with the sinners, 16:10 but he did not participate in sin. 16:13 And so, yeah, thank you very much for that. 16:16 Wayne, parents have great challenges 16:22 in this day and age 16:24 with everything that's going on all around us, 16:27 in the media, in society, 16:30 in the education field, and so forth. 16:35 So the parents are confronted, 16:39 I can only imagine when a parent goes through, 16:43 I saw what my parents went through, 16:45 when I came out, when I announced. 16:50 I didn't really announced but when I talked to my wife 16:52 and told her that I was gay and then my parents found out. 16:58 What would you say is the best thing 17:00 that a parent can do for a child 17:02 who as come out of the closet, come out gay and proud? 17:08 Well, first, I know that the information, 17:11 if it's unsuspected can land, you know, 17:15 like a bomb and set of all kinds of emotions 17:19 including anger, and pain, and hurt, 17:23 and you know, 17:26 how could this have happen, you know. 17:28 And then self-blame comes in for many parents. 17:32 You know, "What did I do?" 17:33 You know, "I've certainly messed up 17:35 somewhere along the away." 17:36 But you know, something that you've should, Ron, 17:39 that I share with the other parents today 17:43 is to not to show this hurt and this remorse 17:50 and morbidity in front of their child 17:54 because you know, that's a sign of weakness. 17:58 And the child needs to know 17:59 that there is still strength there 18:01 in there parent. 18:03 A book I was reading recently, you know, called Messy Grace. 18:08 You know, talks about the tension 18:09 between grace and truth. 18:12 And what, it's like what Jesus does for us 18:16 is that while they may not be up to the optimum place 18:21 that the parent might want their child 18:23 right this very moment, 18:24 that through the power of prayer, 18:26 you know, many things can happen. 18:28 But to thank their child 18:30 for sharing this very delicate matter with them, 18:35 for having the guts, you know, to say, 18:39 "You know, I need you to be aware of something 18:41 I didn't plan on, 18:43 and I know that is important for you to know, 18:46 but it is a change in my life." 18:49 And it could be that that child is going to immerse themselves, 18:53 you know, into the gay culture. 18:54 Acceptance doesn't always imply, 18:58 have to imply approval. 19:00 And so excepting the child, 19:02 remembering that that is your of child, 19:04 loving that child, making sure that they are confident 19:08 about your great love for them, is solidly most important. 19:13 And let them know that God loves them too, 19:15 and God isn't leaving them or forsaking them over this. 19:19 And then in the future there may come a time 19:22 where the child is invitational for conversation, 19:26 don't impose, don't put upon a child 19:28 something they are not ready for. 19:30 Look for an opportunity to share biblical truth 19:33 and have discussion that would be redemptive, 19:36 but never forceful. 19:38 And it really is true that a joyful parent 19:42 will give that child of whatever age an image 19:48 that they can always hold on to, 19:50 that nothing seems to be 19:51 able to break the joy of my parent, 19:53 even my fallen state. 19:56 What is it that they have that I don't understand? 20:00 And what is it that they have that I really need my life-- 20:04 To have a strong hold. Yeah, absolutely. 20:08 I know when we are working with our gay friends 20:12 and someone, Danielle, 20:13 that we're trying to witness to, 20:17 there is a hypersensitivity within the gay culture, 20:21 I can say that as a testimony. 20:24 We all, I think agree 20:26 that there's just this hypersensitivity 20:28 to feelings, emotions, to rejection. 20:31 So how do you go about not hurting someone 20:37 while still standing firm in your convictions 20:39 and not compromising on your principals? 20:43 Well, you know, I think 20:45 that every situation really is different, 20:47 every person is different 20:49 in the way that they have walked into the place 20:52 where they stand at that time, and it's, you know, 20:57 you gonna have to navigate with them differently 21:00 and they're going to come away from it differently. 21:02 And so, it really takes a lot of tact, 21:05 and it really takes a lot of prayer 21:08 and being saturated, I believe, in the Holy Spirit. 21:11 So because every situation is different, 21:17 I strive not only to spend time 21:20 in the word of God every single day. 21:24 I try to do that not just from my own personal, 21:26 spiritual growth and benefit. 21:28 But as I've been in ministry, 21:30 as I've gone through this experience 21:33 of God bringing people across my path 21:37 along the journey, 21:39 I've seen over and over and over again 21:42 that the Lord drives me 21:45 to certain passages of scripture and certain books, 21:49 in preparing me to have 21:52 just the right information fresh in my mind 21:55 from what I've read recently to able to reach that person, 21:58 what they need right there, you know. 22:00 And as I'm talking with that person, 22:04 the words starts bringing things into mind 22:06 from what I've read recently. 22:08 And so, I just, I encourage people 22:13 to be constantly praying 22:14 as you're talking with the person 22:16 and allow the Lord to lead you into what to read 22:20 and how to apply those things 22:23 for yourself and for other people. 22:25 And use what the lord has been teaching you, 22:28 and use it as a testimony, 22:30 use it as a witness for that person, 22:33 and let the Lord drive you into those conversation. 22:36 And If you're gay friend has found you someone 22:38 that is approachable, someone that they can trust, 22:43 may be that person will just ask a question, 22:48 and if you have discernment 22:51 you can tell where enough is enough, right? 22:53 That's right. 22:54 Because you may need to just plant a seed 22:56 and then let it go, right? 22:58 And not all, and not just give them shotgun, 23:01 everything you know. 23:03 Yes 23:04 I have seen that at times that a person may, 23:07 they can only handle just a little bit, 23:09 you give him that little bit and then just changes subject. 23:12 All right, if they ask another question, 23:15 go with that. 23:16 Yeah, and it's, it can be a very delicate walk. 23:20 But the lord will give us discernment 23:22 in that if we truly have burden for that soul. 23:26 I-- 23:28 want to ask you, Mike, here, 23:32 we-- 23:34 I think we believe 23:35 that we understand the LGBT mindset, right? 23:40 We've been there, so. 23:43 Now we may not understand it as well as we think we do, 23:46 but we have pretty good understanding. 23:48 But to our viewing audience, 23:51 many of these people, I'm sure, 23:53 do not know how to relate to people 23:57 in the LGBT community. 24:02 So, how can-- 24:04 can you give us an idea how to better relate to them 24:08 when we really don't understand them? 24:10 How do you witness to them 24:12 if you really don't understand there issue? 24:13 Right. 24:15 Well, part of I think our obligation as a Christian 24:18 is to get to understand them. 24:20 I can't understand Wayne unless I spent time with Wayne. 24:22 There you go. 24:24 And one of the things 24:25 that we've learned in this ministry 24:27 is because of our diverse backgrounds, 24:28 I've learned much more as I've listen to Danielle 24:31 and to you, Ron, and to Wayne, and other people. 24:34 You know, I understand more as I listen 24:37 the circumstances that you've come from, 24:39 they don't related to me 24:40 or that I don't even understand. 24:42 And as I spent time and pray 24:44 and ask for the guidance of the Holy Sprit, 24:46 when I take a phone call of somebody 24:48 from around the world that struggling with the either 24:50 pornography addiction or homosexual attraction, 24:53 I pray and I ask the Holy Spirit 24:55 for that discerning guidance. 24:57 And what I really focus on is really listening, 25:00 because I was so desperate for somebody to listen to me. 25:02 And just the fact 25:04 that even if we didn't know how to help me, 25:05 where in the fact 25:07 that if you're willing to listen to me, 25:08 that in itself automatically bounce me to you, 25:11 and help me to thing that, wow, he may not understand me 25:15 but at least he allowed me to say 25:17 and get it off my chest. 25:18 And I think that that's where you just began. 25:21 I think that's such an important point, 25:23 if we don't understand then listen. 25:27 That's really great, Mike, 25:28 because as we listen we will began to understand 25:31 better and better what is going on. 25:34 And we can learn a lot 25:36 from the person who is seeking answers. 25:39 We can learn a lot from them 25:40 by just listing to their stories. 25:44 Danielle, what can we share with someone, 25:49 who is showing an interest in learning more about God? 25:54 You know, I think the important thing to do 25:57 is to cultivate a belief or a confidence in them 26:04 that a confidence in the word of God for them, 26:07 you know, point them back to the word 26:10 and help them to establish a trust and a belief 26:14 in the word of God. 26:15 Because if you can establish that connection for them, 26:19 then anything else 26:20 that you have to share with them 26:22 can flow through that conduit that you've established there. 26:26 So I would say, you know, 26:29 raise the standard of the word God 26:31 and help them to believe that they can trust in that, 26:33 and then ask them thought provoking questions. 26:37 I've realized very quickly 26:39 that one of my spiritual counselors, 26:41 when I would come to him 26:43 and I start talking about spiritual things, 26:45 he'd asked me lot of questions. 26:47 And I realized after little while 26:49 that it wasn't because, 26:51 he didn't have the answers, because he did it. 26:54 It was because he wanted to get me 26:57 thinking about the answers to those kind of questions. 27:00 And I think, when we really start encouraging people 27:03 to consider spiritual things and contemplate on their own, 27:09 it starts to cultivate a confidence within them 27:13 then that may be they can discern spiritual things. 27:16 And to cultivate a hunger within them to know more, 27:20 and to learn more, and to grow more 27:22 in spiritual understanding. 27:24 Okay, beautiful. 27:25 Thank you very much, we-- 27:28 you know, we're so often as Christians accused 27:31 of not understanding and not caring, 27:34 not really even wanting to relate. 27:36 But I just want to tell the viewing audience today, 27:40 Pure Choices really cares, 27:42 that's why they have us here today. 27:45 Coming Out Ministry really cares, 27:48 we care about your salvation 27:49 and we care about your hurts and your sorrows, 27:53 and Jesus cares more than all of us. 27:55 Amen. 27:56 We want to thank you 27:58 for being with us today on Pure Choices. 28:00 Tune in again. |
Revised 2016-06-16