Participants: Brittany Hill-Morales (Host), Dajanae Anderson, Keith Hackle Jr, Sabine Vatel
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000133A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Hello, welcome to Pure Choices. 00:42 My name is Brittany Hill-Morales, 00:44 and I'm your host for today's program. 00:46 We have a very great topic for you today. 00:49 We're talking about abortion, after the abortion. 00:53 But before we talk into this very sensitive 00:54 and important topic, let's pray. 00:57 Dear kind and most heavenly Father, 01:00 please help us as we're about to discuss 01:02 this very important topic, 01:04 and also to the viewers at home. 01:06 We love You and we praise Your name, 01:07 in Jesus' name, amen. 01:09 Amen. Amen. 01:11 So we have a very great panel with us today. 01:15 Over right beside me is Keith Hackle from Iowa. 01:19 We have over there on the couch, 01:21 two wonderful ladies, 01:23 Dajanae Anderson of Texas and Sabine Vatel of Michigan. 01:27 We are talking about abortion. 01:31 And we're not talking about 01:32 contemplating the before factor, 01:34 we're talking about after. 01:38 We're talking about that young lady who, 01:40 she already had the abortion, 01:43 may be she had it when she wasn't a Christian, 01:44 maybe she had it when she was a Christian. 01:46 And now, she is hearing about what it actually means 01:51 and she might have guilt, all these different things. 01:55 There's a lot that might be going on, 01:57 before we open up and discuss more, 02:02 one young lady who I'm close with, 02:04 she found out she was pregnant, 02:06 and it was very nerve wrecking for her. 02:09 She didn't tell anyone but the young man. 02:12 And they sat down and they discussed, 02:15 you know, I love you, you love me 02:17 but we're not ready to have children right now. 02:19 So she went to, 02:22 whoever she went to and she got the pill, 02:25 an abortion pill. 02:27 And she explained to me during that evening, 02:30 she literally felt like she was going to die, 02:34 based on whatever the pill was doing to her. 02:36 So she assumed that it was effective, 02:38 and a few months later 02:39 she was going through the same pregnancy symptoms, 02:43 and it was confirmed, she was still pregnant. 02:47 Even despite the fact that she went through all of that pain. 02:50 And her gentleman at that time said, 02:55 "Okay, well, guess we have to do another method 02:57 for the abortion." 02:58 And she was like, "No, 02:59 we're not going through this again. 03:01 I felt like I was about to die, we're not doing this." 03:04 And now, she has a beautiful boy 03:07 that's three-four years old. 03:09 And this is one of the factors 03:12 that happened after the abortion, 03:14 most people think when you do an abortion, 03:15 it's always successful. 03:17 There is no more, no child but sometimes you do it 03:20 and there is still a child. 03:22 So let's talk about that for may be just a few moments? 03:27 I believe that, I think there's been a lot of stories, 03:30 not a lot but many stories like that, 03:33 that we've heard about on, 03:36 there's different like documentaries 03:39 and shows and things like that, 03:41 that show I was a child that my mother tried to abort. 03:47 Or that my parents wanted to be aborted and now I'm here. 03:54 Sometime, many time, most times 03:57 that's really traumatic for the child, 03:59 either growing up knowing that as a truth 04:03 or later on finding out that, that was the reality. 04:07 And so there is a lot of healing 04:09 that has to take place with that individual 04:12 to understand that even if their biological parents 04:16 did not necessarily want them to live, 04:20 that God had a bigger plan, and God had a bigger purpose, 04:23 and your life is that much richer 04:27 because God actually transcended 04:31 the will of a human being which God doesn't always do. 04:36 But God transcended the will of a human being and allowed 04:40 because your life had more purpose 04:42 than your parents could understand at the time. 04:46 Wow, and you know, I'm struck with the relief of the... 04:50 I don't know if you said relief, 04:51 if you used that word but the relief of the mother 04:53 and I know I've heard stories, 04:55 at least one story of a young lady, 04:57 her testimony is actually that. 04:58 The testimony said I was, 05:00 and she was left actually with some scars, 05:01 and some disability as a result, 05:04 her mother tried abort her. 05:05 But I've never heard somebody 05:06 who was sorry that it didn't work, 05:09 which leads me to believe that most people would... 05:12 I hope that anyway that abortion is not desirable. 05:15 It's never the first choice 05:16 and it's something to be avoided. 05:18 I think life makes a way, God makes a way, 05:21 we believe but life is meant to be lived. 05:26 I just, I rejoice in hearing that story 05:29 and the fact that they could have tried a different method. 05:32 And she said, you know what, 05:34 we tried something and it didn't work out, 05:36 we just going to keep moving with this, 05:38 and so I think what we see in this story is God's hand, 05:43 His hand of protection, and to that as a young man, 05:47 that child grows into a young man and later a man, 05:51 it would be great for him to use 05:53 that as a source of direction and strength, 05:56 so I hope mom shares that story, 05:59 though it may be tough to tell, 06:01 "Hey, I tried to abort you at one time." 06:05 Because that could be used to say, 06:06 "Hey, God has a mission, a purpose for you, 06:10 where it could have been meant for evil, 06:13 God has turned this thing out for good." 06:15 And so that could be a motivator 06:17 to lead that young man would be great. 06:19 I think that's an excellent point. 06:21 Most of the time when we hear about a person 06:24 who has already had an abortion, 06:25 we think about the women, that's the main factor. 06:28 But sometimes there are these children 06:29 who have survived, 06:31 and I'm glad that we took that moment just to say that, 06:33 "If you are, in that case 06:36 where you are unsuccessful abortion, 06:40 successful-unsuccessful abortion, 06:43 God had a bigger purpose for you, 06:44 God had a plan for your life. 06:47 And rejoice in that." 06:49 And hopefully, you know, the parents realize 06:53 is that God probably did have a better plan, 06:55 and this was a beautiful thing to happen. 06:57 But we don't want to neglect the fact that they are women, 07:00 who made the conscious decision to abort. 07:05 They went, they completed it, it was done, 07:09 and now that they're Christians, 07:12 may be they were Christians before 07:14 but now it's at different level, 07:15 it's that deep connection with God. 07:18 They are feeling this guilt, this remorse. 07:20 How do you heal 07:22 as a female after an abortion? 07:28 How do you heal? 07:30 I mean that's a very difficult... 07:34 I believe that's a very difficult question 07:37 in terms of how do you heal. 07:41 There you have to understand, 07:45 in part you have to understand and accept the gospel of truth 07:50 that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." 07:53 But that God still gave up His life 07:57 in place of the wrong decisions that you have made, 08:02 that covers the decisions that you make consciously 08:05 and unconsciously or not fully conscious 08:09 of what you were doing at the time, 08:12 and to understand that you don't have to live 08:15 in that guilt, it's more than, 08:18 sometimes I think we know that as factual truth, 08:23 but it's hard for us to receive that, 08:26 that God truly loves me. 08:28 That may be true for the person who just lied or the person 08:32 who just stole something. 08:34 But that may not be true for me, 08:36 once I realize that I've ended a life that God may have, 08:41 you know, wanted me to actually go through with, 08:46 or be there for the process of, and so that it's difficult, 08:53 I would say I can understand, I can relay, 08:57 I can empathize with the difficult reality 09:00 of that process. 09:02 As you were talking, I think it would be difficult, 09:06 and we don't have that experience 09:09 but you know, I know I've two friends 09:10 who've walked that journey, and who in their 20s, 09:14 who made that decision. 09:16 And it haunted them actually 09:18 and it manifested itself in such self-hate. 09:22 They may not know that was at the time 09:25 but in terms of their choices, and how they self punished, 09:28 and until one of them had turn 09:30 during a counseling session 09:33 with a Christian counselor that came out, 09:35 and it just kind of, the flood of tears came 09:38 and it was actually like grief of losing a baby. 09:42 Whether or not it was through abortion 09:43 but for her it was the realization 09:45 that I lost my son 09:47 and I don't know how she knew it was a boy. 09:51 I think she either was told, I'm not sure 09:53 but she had lost her son, 09:55 and you go through a real cycle of grief. 09:57 She allowed herself to go through grief actually. 10:00 Yeah, and by the way this is a grief that 10:02 it's hard to talk to somebody else about. 10:04 It's like you bought it upon yourself that's what she felt. 10:06 I mean, you bought it upon yourself, 10:07 now you're going to grieve, 10:08 so who do you turn to when you carry that guilt 10:11 and the grief at the same time, 10:13 so like you said, difficult is the word. 10:15 Yes, and I've friends too, I've one friend in particular 10:19 who shared with me. 10:21 When I would hang out, we would hang out, 10:22 we would go out, and we would go to the grocery store, 10:25 and there would be a baby crying, 10:27 and she would get so upset 10:29 and just be talking bad about the mom, 10:31 and how the mom needs to get the baby under control. 10:34 And one day we were talking and she shared with me 10:39 that she had an abortion years before 10:42 and that, that is why 10:45 it bothers her to hear a child cry 10:49 because the crying and the dissatisfaction 10:53 of a child she realizes, 10:57 she feels like she is hearing her child cry 11:00 in pain of the abortion, and so that was, 11:05 that's something that I think she is still processing. 11:10 She never went, and necessarily got help for it, 11:13 and there were many bad decisions 11:17 that came, relationship decisions 11:20 that she would have never... 11:21 That she, before the abortion 11:23 when she was in the relationship 11:25 with the young man, 11:27 they were, you know, they weren't married and, 11:30 of course, you should be married 11:32 but they were at least monogamous. 11:35 And that, you know, 11:37 but it was still pre-marital sex 11:41 and but when that relationship ended, 11:44 she was just promiscuous. 11:45 Oh, wow. 11:47 After the ending of that relationship, 11:49 and the abortion of the child, 11:52 I believe heavier the abortion of the child 11:54 caused her to feel like you said, 11:57 a little bit devalued. 11:59 She felt devalued as a woman. 12:03 And that I'm supposed to bring life, 12:06 and I've ended that function, 12:09 and so the other natural functions 12:12 are no longer relevant to me. 12:16 It really is a form of punishing, 12:17 that's punishment. 12:18 I mean, some young ladies listening to us right now, 12:20 who're punishing themselves 12:22 and were haunted by that decision. 12:25 Just from a pastor's point of view if I could, 12:29 I can't give the female perspective 12:31 but there's a word that's important 12:35 and that's repent. 12:37 And I think a lot of these issues 12:39 when we go through that self abuse, 12:42 self defeating behavior is 12:44 because we don't feel like 12:46 we've received the forgiveness that we need. 12:49 And so the first step to that is saying, 12:51 "Hey, God, I messed up. 12:53 I made a mistake." Right? 12:55 And the Bible says that He is faithful 12:58 and just to forgive us, right? 12:59 And so once we believe that He's forgiven us, 13:02 then we're able to walk 13:04 in the newness of that forgiveness. 13:06 And so I want to encourage any young lady 13:11 who's gone through this process, 13:12 and is feeling like they don't have that connection, 13:16 really check and see if you've really repented of this thing. 13:19 If you say at least, I've made a mistake, I'm sorry. 13:23 I won't go down that path again 13:25 and start that process of healing through believing 13:29 that God has forgiven you. 13:31 In my life there's been times where, 13:33 if I didn't feel like He's forgiven me, right, 13:36 then I would still beat myself up about it, 13:38 but if God has forgiven you, 13:41 then you're in a place where you can start rebuilding 13:44 and get to a better relationship. 13:45 True, true. 13:48 As we are talking about women and what they go through, 13:51 I want to also take a moment for men, 13:54 the potential who could have been a father to be. 13:58 And who possibly wanted that baby 14:02 or may be they didn't want the baby 14:03 and now they're thinking about it, 14:05 "Wait, I could have had like a five year old right now, 14:08 I could have had who know may be 14:10 the future President of the United States." 14:13 Depending how far back the abortion was. 14:18 They are going through their own set of realities 14:20 and most of the times it's just like, 14:22 okay, you are a man, suck it up, 14:23 it wasn't your body. 14:25 But technically part of him did die with that abortion. 14:30 So you could talk a little bit about the guy, 14:32 how do we encourage our men who have these feelings? 14:36 I think, the position of healing 14:43 and accepting the love of God still applies, 14:47 definitely still applies and so in which way. 14:52 There is something that the young men 14:57 have something to relate to God about. 15:00 In that you lost your child, 15:03 that you've experienced the death of your child, 15:06 and so that for me just highlights the gospel 15:11 in what happened. 15:12 Now, it's not in fullness, it's definitely not in fullness 15:17 but there is an understanding that God understands grief. 15:21 And to know as a man that God understands grief, 15:25 that the Father God understands grief 15:28 and that even Jesus Christ 15:30 understood the reality 15:35 that everyone will not fully accept Him, 15:38 that His children will die or something outside of God... 15:45 God has the potential, right? 15:47 So I'm just going to say it clear. 15:48 God has the potential 15:50 to control each and every one of us. 15:52 God has the ability is a better, 15:55 you know, better term. 15:57 But God chooses to allow us to make our own decisions, 16:02 God restrains Himself. 16:04 And so for the young man 16:06 that could not force the young woman or the man, 16:12 the grown man who could not force the woman 16:16 to make the decision that he wanted her to make. 16:20 There's something that you have relatability with God on 16:26 because God also does not force us 16:30 but still suffers the consequences 16:33 of the decisions that we make. 16:35 And so being able to know that you do not grieve alone, 16:40 and that it's okay to cry, and it is okay to hurt as a man 16:44 because of that loss, 16:46 is something that is definitely present 16:49 in the gospel message. 16:50 You know, and I've met men who have come to my office, 16:54 who had that grief but especially 16:57 because they were the ones who said, "Do it, 17:00 I don't want to deal with this baby right now. 17:02 I want you to get rid of it." 17:03 And as they've grown, they get to know the Lord, 17:06 that too is in their mind like I caused this, 17:08 you know, this woman to make this decision 17:11 because I wasn't willing to take that responsibility. 17:13 And I think, this idea that you present, Dajanae, 17:18 about forgiveness, and grief, and forgiving yourself, 17:23 forgiving the young person that you were, 17:24 what you knew at the time, 17:26 and just coming to speak to somebody and say, 17:29 "I just need relief from this guilt as well too." 17:32 So there're men who probably saying to us, 17:34 we're going through that as well, 17:36 and God's forgiveness is real, 17:38 and can be experienced, even for them, even for you. 17:40 Yeah. 17:42 I believe it. Yeah. 17:43 It's, it's... 17:45 I can't imagine it in talking, talking that's all I can say 17:50 because you mentioned something and guys hear this a lot, 17:54 this is my body, right, 17:56 especially as it relates to abortion, 17:57 "This is my body, 17:59 I've got to carry this child for this period of time." 18:02 And so at the end of the day, the man's hands are truly tied. 18:08 In this instance, there is really nothing, 18:10 that they could do, so recovering after that, 18:13 dealing with it after that, I think being transparent, 18:16 finding some individuals that you can confine in 18:19 and say, "Hey, I am feeling this way." 18:21 And not allowing that loss in that particular situation 18:25 to cause you to go and do something, 18:27 to kind of make up for that loss, right, so... 18:30 Right, they can have another baby. 18:31 Right, you can take somebody else, right? 18:33 Right. 18:35 And you make a mistake in the midst of a mistake 18:38 having already been made. 18:39 Yeah. 18:41 And so it takes really, really trying to be patient 18:46 through that thing and understand that thing, 18:48 asking God to give you clarity, and really talking to people. 18:50 And his perspective. Yes, his perspective. 18:52 Yeah, and really talking to people 18:54 because I can imagine that, 18:56 that's a difficult thing to deal with. 18:58 And it's not only difficult for the woman and the father, 19:03 it's also difficult for anyone else 19:04 who probably would have known about it. 19:05 Yes. 19:07 If the young man ran and told his mom, 19:09 "She lost a grandchild." 19:10 Yes. Right. 19:12 Sisters lost that potentially is their nephew. 19:14 Right. 19:15 And that's one thing that you have in the back of your head. 19:19 Right. 19:20 It may not have been the child that was in your womb 19:23 but it is part of your heart. 19:25 Right. 19:26 And one thing that... 19:28 I remember one of my professors was talking about 19:29 when he deals with women who have had abortions, 19:32 I would break this up to even a widest spectrum 19:35 for the grandmother, the potential aunty, 19:39 the uncle, the father, another child's memory. 19:45 Abortion is something that, it's truly broken, 19:52 it creates this level of brokenness in humanity 19:55 that we can't even fully begin 19:59 to fully comprehend and understand. 20:01 The brokenness, everybody gets torn open 20:04 when it comes to children. 20:06 We hear all types of different levels of hurt, 20:08 abuse, crimes, misfortunes, but when it comes to children, 20:13 it's always something that touches the heart 20:15 and breaks you. 20:17 And when you come to this point as a Christian and it hits you 20:21 that someone who could have been here was taken away, 20:23 especially if you didn't fully understand 20:25 what you were doing, 20:26 especially if you didn't fully grasp the fact 20:28 that this was a person 20:30 that God wanted into this world. 20:35 The world may not hold you accountable for it 20:37 but you feel like you need to hold yourself 20:38 accountable for it. 20:40 And coming to God and saying, 20:43 "Lord, I know that this was wrong, 20:47 I know that this should not have happened, 20:51 and I'm feeling broken inside." 20:55 You have to say, "Lord, I need you to heal me, 20:57 I need you to start doing something. 20:59 Show me who to talk to, show me who to relate to, 21:02 show me is there specific group I need to find support in" 21:06 'cause there are abortion support groups. 21:09 Sure. 21:10 And one thing, again, my professor was saying is 21:12 to have a memorial service. 21:14 Yeah. 21:15 That's one firm way of having, I don't want to say closure 21:18 'cause you don't really get 21:20 over the fact of losing a child, 21:21 but it brings some sort of healing to the table, 21:25 where you actually say, let's have a little box, 21:28 put a little something in that could have been for the baby. 21:31 Dig a hole and bury and then say a few words. 21:34 To say, express or get whatever it is off your chest, 21:36 write a letter, do these different things. 21:39 And we don't want to say that we have all the answers 21:42 to heal you from whatever it is you're going through. 21:45 God is the first one who has the healing plan, 21:47 has the healing elements and you need to talk to God 21:50 and say God, "Who else do I need to speak to. 21:52 You led me to this program, what else do I need to go to 21:55 because I'm realizing the mess that I put myself in 21:59 and the mess I put others in." 22:00 Yes. 22:01 And I want to find redemption, but there are people 22:04 who're looking at this and they are like, 22:05 "I don't feel anything." 22:07 That's true. 22:08 They're like I did it... 22:09 And that's true. 22:11 And there is, I think that 'cause it's true 22:14 and I think that sometimes with a lot of things, 22:20 since, you know, that one may partake in, 22:25 you may not feel the effects of it right away. 22:27 You may not even feel the effects of it 22:29 two, three, five years from now but you are affected. 22:34 And so I think, some people misunderstand 22:38 being affected and feeling affected. 22:43 Those two things are different. 22:45 You may not feel affected but you are, 22:50 you made a decision, a huge decision, 22:55 no matter how old you were, 22:56 no matter where you were in your development, 22:58 you made a huge decision and you are affected. 23:01 You make decisions either consciously or subconsciously 23:06 based on that decision that you made, 23:08 that's just the reality of life. 23:10 As we mature, as we grow, as we become adults, 23:16 and even mature through adulthood, 23:18 each decision makes us a part of who we are, 23:22 each decision, because we have to take responsibility for us, 23:26 even if we don't take responsibility 23:28 for our decision, right? 23:29 It is something for the first time, 23:32 I was able to make this decision. 23:34 Does that make sense? 23:36 Like, I was able for the first time 23:38 to make such decision and that can be empowering 23:42 or that can place a certain amount of fear 23:45 inside of us 23:46 because I now realize 23:47 that I'm capable of making a harsh decision. 23:53 There is another friend that I have, 23:55 who, you know, shared with me the effects 23:58 that she's begun to feel, 24:00 have been based on, she feels like a mother. 24:05 She said, "I feel like a mother when I see...' 24:08 Cause before I got pregnant I didn't care about kids, 24:11 little kids, I didn't want little kids around me, 24:13 you know, anything like that." 24:15 She was like, " I wasn't an affectionate person 24:18 but after having my abortion, 24:23 I understand my mother's love in a way 24:27 that I never understood my mother's love before. 24:30 I care for little children as I see, 24:34 you know, they may be making, 24:36 you know, small decisions 24:37 that may cause them to fall down or, 24:40 you know, get hit by a car because you run in the street," 24:43 like these parental instincts, 24:46 she said, "Kicked in, after my abortion." 24:50 And so there are so many side effects, 24:54 lifelong side effects to having an abortion, 24:59 whether you realize it or not. 25:01 When she said, "I feel like a mother." 25:03 I'm telling myself, uh, she is a mother of a child 25:06 who is gone and that's why the grief is so deep. 25:09 That's true. That's true. 25:10 And I just want to speak to the idea 25:12 of an individual not feeling any type of weight after this 25:16 and I think, if you find yourself ever in a situation 25:19 where you've committed a sin 25:21 and you don't feel bad about it. 25:23 If you are a Christian, 25:24 then you definitely need to have a gut check. 25:27 There really needs to be a discussion 25:29 between you and God, I mean because Romans, 25:32 Romans is one of my favorite chapter, 25:34 goes through this list of things 25:37 that humanity has begun to do from homosexuality 25:40 to just all type of craziness and not feeling bad about it. 25:46 And God says, okay, well, here is the thing, 25:48 I'm going to let you do this, 25:49 I'm going to turn you over to your wicked ways 25:52 but understand this, there is a response, 25:55 there are some repercussions to this. 25:57 And so, if I'm a Christian 26:00 and I've gone through something, 26:02 made a bad decision, and I'm sitting back 26:03 and I'm like," 26:05 Hey, I don't feel any type of weight about that." 26:07 I should be concerned, 26:08 we should be because that means, 26:10 I'm now in a position 26:13 where I'm doing things that directly oppose God. 26:15 Right. 26:16 And I'm saying as a Christian, I don't have a problem with it. 26:19 Right. 26:20 'Cause there is a reality 26:22 that the Spirit of God is with us all, 26:25 the Spirit of God convicts us, 26:27 the Spirit of God encourages us. 26:29 And so if you're saying 26:31 that you do not feel the effects of sin, 26:36 then that means you are rejecting 26:40 what the Spirit of God is trying to communicate to you, 26:44 and so that's nothing to boast about. 26:46 Oh, you might feel some type of weight, 26:47 you know, people will say. 26:49 You may feel some type of weight. 26:50 You may bring your feelings about it 26:51 but I've made my feelings about it, 26:53 it's bigger than feelings and emotions. 26:55 It's much bigger than that. 26:57 And that's completely the case the way it is. 27:01 And I love the fact 27:02 how long we have been discussing right now, 27:05 it brings to the fact that for our church communities, 27:07 local communities for women, men 27:10 that are dealing with the fact that an abortion has happened. 27:13 We need to support them 27:15 realizing that there are deep emotional hurts 27:18 that are going on, 27:20 so of course we want you 27:21 to keep on having that discussion, 27:22 not only have a discussion, get into action mode. 27:25 What can you do to support women, men 27:29 who are considering abortion 27:30 and who have actually had the abortion? 27:32 How can you help them come about and have healing? 27:34 It's not about judging them, and condemning them, 27:37 and reminding them what they did wrong. 27:40 Yes, we should tell them that they did something wrong 27:42 but you also need to bring about that healing process, 27:45 so that they can be where they need to be. 27:48 For the wages of sin is dead but God, who He is, 27:51 He redeems us. 27:53 So go forth in that redemption 27:55 and let that be your pure choice. |
Revised 2017-12-18