Pure Choices

Maddie and Paddie: Caught in Pornogaphy

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Brittany Hill-Morales (Host), Dajanae Anderson, Sabine Vatel

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Series Code: PC

Program Code: PC000135A


00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices.
00:42 My name is Brittany Hill-Morales
00:43 and I'm the host for today's program.
00:45 We have a really great topic today.
00:48 We're talking about church leaders
00:50 in pornography, sexual sins.
00:52 But before we jump into this conversation,
00:54 let's pray.
00:56 Dear kind and most heavenly Father,
00:57 dear Lord, we pray that
00:59 as we're about to have this discussion
01:00 that You will be with us here
01:01 and also be with the viewers at home.
01:03 We love You so much, in Jesus' name, amen.
01:06 Amen. Amen.
01:08 As we're about to begin
01:10 I had two wonderful ladies over here on the couch.
01:12 We have Sabine Vatel and also Dajanae Anderson.
01:16 Thank you guys so much for being here
01:18 and being willing to talk about this important topic,
01:21 church leadership and pornography.
01:26 A while ago there was a situation
01:27 where a website where couples,
01:30 married couples were engaging each other,
01:33 trying to do things that were not right,
01:36 sexual sins.
01:39 And as the list came out
01:42 with the different names of people,
01:45 it came to the light that some of these couples,
01:48 these married couples were church leaders.
01:51 And before there was an outrage by this website
01:54 but it was at different level
01:56 because they're church leaders.
01:59 And it seems like church leaders
02:00 have a different sort of responsibility,
02:02 different sort of a burden when it comes to sexual sins.
02:07 Well, how do you feel about that?
02:10 I think that it makes sense to me.
02:13 I understand why people feel that way
02:17 and it's not all the way wrong.
02:21 But I also believe that most people who feel like
02:26 church leaders should not have sexual temptation
02:31 or even may possibly even fall into that sexual temptation,
02:36 I don't believe that's realistic.
02:39 I don't believe that that is even biblical.
02:42 In terms of the history of salvation,
02:45 there is evidence that church leaders,
02:47 God's people sometimes falls into sin
02:52 but the reaction, the thing that still labels a person
02:56 as a child of God
02:57 and as a vessel to consistently be used by God
03:01 is the ability to be rebuked by God
03:04 and to receive that rebuke in repentance.
03:07 And so there's a...
03:09 But I believe that there's a, there's a false expectation.
03:13 There's a false expectation that is given on to leaders
03:17 that, yes, we should pray for our leaders,
03:19 we want them to make, they are examples
03:22 but when they fall, do we...
03:24 Are we as loving to them as maybe they were loving to us
03:29 or people in our congregations,
03:32 the people that we sit next to
03:35 during church time, during counseling?
03:39 Are we just as merciful to our church leaders
03:42 as we may be to our children
03:44 or even to maybe our parents
03:46 and when we find out that they may have done something
03:50 that was in upscale within Christian morality?
03:55 Yeah, well, you know, I've...
03:57 I think the reaction in terms of, I being a Christian,
04:01 people put down the leaders as much,
04:04 may be there were some that we're very disappointed
04:06 but what struck me was there was a sense of,
04:08 maybe mocking or gotcha,
04:11 you know, you thought you were so good
04:12 and you're not exactly who you portray to be."
04:15 So there was a sense of there we go again,
04:17 of course, they're going to do that,
04:18 you know, people who don't...
04:19 obviously who are Christian,
04:21 who don't expect much from Christianity
04:22 or Christian leaders,
04:23 I think they got more of a mocking.
04:26 The expectations are not high for Christian leaders
04:29 in secular circles in my experience.
04:32 One thing that someone told me was pastors are humans too,
04:37 church leaders are humans too...
04:39 That's a question or...
04:41 No, we are.
04:42 No, they are humans too. Yeah, yeah.
04:43 We as church leaders are humans, too.
04:45 Yes, yes.
04:46 Because we all serve as church leaders on different...
04:49 Since I was maybe 11, 12 different things
04:52 with pathfinders,
04:53 all these different organizations in the church
04:55 serving, people expect different from you.
05:00 They expect this level of perfection,
05:03 but church leaders are humans too.
05:07 And I mean, look at the origin of sin,
05:09 you look at the theology of sin.
05:12 Human, humanity fell in the garden,
05:16 we all are marred
05:17 and there are different things
05:19 that we're going to struggle with,
05:21 and sexuality is one of those things
05:23 and one of the things that is more hidden is pornography.
05:28 Viewing images, videos
05:31 and even maybe taking it a step further
05:33 and actually relieving yourselves to masturbation,
05:36 watching pornography,
05:38 and church leaders may want healing from this,
05:42 but they have a different level of struggle
05:44 because they're church leaders
05:47 and everyone expects them to be perfect.
05:50 Yeah, I think that that's very real.
05:53 There are examples like I said in the Bible that show
05:58 that, yes, there are that God...
06:01 There is a standard,
06:02 you know, we're not saying that there isn't a standard
06:06 that shouldn't be in place.
06:07 When you are in leadership,
06:08 you do have a larger responsibility
06:12 to be that example just as when you're a parent,
06:15 you have a larger responsibility to your child
06:18 than the person down the street has to your child.
06:21 And so in that same reality,
06:25 yes, there is a responsibility
06:27 but within that responsibility
06:29 when I mess up,
06:31 whether it be sexual or otherwise
06:35 What is, is your response redemptive
06:38 or is your response to make me feel ashamed of myself,
06:44 ashamed of the sin is different from making,
06:47 trying to make me feel,
06:48 like, I should be ashamed of myself.
06:51 And so in that same respect
06:52 what are we doing to our male leaders in the church,
06:57 what are we doing to our female leaders in the church
07:00 when we find out, yes, they have counseled us
07:03 and they have given us the counsel of the Lord
07:06 but they are still human beings that struggle with receiving
07:09 the counsel that God has given them directly.
07:13 I think, for me personally I can be minister to some,
07:18 by someone who is honest about their struggle,
07:23 and I think there's a difference between struggle
07:26 and... Indulgement.
07:27 Indulgence, yeah, indulgement.
07:29 And so if I'm indulging myself into the sin
07:35 and I'm hiding it and acting like it doesn't exist
07:38 and I'm condemning you,
07:41 but I'm keeping mine a secret,
07:43 then I'm much more frustrated
07:46 with that sort of church leader
07:49 where as if you...
07:51 The Bible says, you know, judge not
07:54 lest you to be judged,
07:56 for in what manner you judge you shall also be judged.
07:59 And so with that I believe that many of us
08:02 we take that passage
08:04 and we interpret it incorrectly
08:07 because there are also passages in 1 Corinthians
08:10 that talk about Christians judging each other
08:14 with the righteous judgment
08:16 and for the purpose of redemption.
08:18 And so those two things coming together,
08:20 if I am judging you,
08:23 if I am saying that this is wrong
08:26 as a church leader,
08:27 then I am to still be humble and meek
08:30 understanding that even if I'm not indulge
08:34 and indulging myself in sexual sin
08:37 that I am not above the possibility of falling
08:41 that we are all...
08:42 That sin is crouching at our doors,
08:45 whether we are church leaders or otherwise.
08:47 And I think if we have that mentality,
08:50 then we will be able to be much more merciful
08:54 to those who fall.
08:55 And be a resource
08:57 for those who are struggling as well too, you know.
08:59 It's not a small thing to come out of the darkness
09:02 and say, this is what I'm struggling with,
09:05 even if you're, I won't say regular person
09:07 but if you're not a leader,
09:09 but if you're a leader and you're visible,
09:10 it is a huge energy and courage to go, to come out and say,
09:14 "This is what I'm struggling with."
09:16 And you mention the hoc
09:19 and there was a very publicized case
09:22 in which this religion teacher was caught.
09:25 He was part of those people who were named in that website
09:29 and his shame was so strong that he committed suicide.
09:33 He didn't, you know, and his wife,
09:35 and speaking with her, she said in the article
09:37 that she would have forgiven him,
09:38 his children would have forgiven him
09:40 and he did not, he was not able to receive the grace
09:42 that he himself had lived to other people.
09:45 So, you know, suicide is not the way,
09:49 hiding and denying it is not the way
09:50 but to come out into the light
09:52 and allow God to give you that healing that you need.
09:59 Yeah. I'm sorry, were you...
10:00 No, no, I'm good sister.
10:02 Because I didn't want to interrupt you
10:06 but there's a, like you were talking about the isolation
10:09 that takes place amongst leadership
10:12 and we're not saying,
10:13 right, that every church leader needs to expose themselves
10:17 to their congregation.
10:20 That's not what we're saying.
10:23 I don't think that's wise.
10:25 Be real, be authentic. Yes, yes.
10:26 Right. Yeah, definitely be... Right.
10:29 Yeah, you are not to give like
10:31 through the details of all your struggle
10:32 and be all graphic about it
10:34 but to let people know that your fellow journeyer
10:37 that you're on that road together
10:40 Yeah, and I also think
10:42 before you even try to do the whole,
10:44 I'm going to go and tell my whole church...
10:47 Yes.
10:48 You need to repent to be forgiven.
10:50 And even before we repent to be forgiven,
10:52 you need to not minimize the sin.
10:54 Oh, yeah.
10:55 And that's the number one thing that most people do is like,
10:58 "Okay, it's not that bad..."
10:59 It's not, I'm not, especially when it comes to pornography,
11:01 church leaders might say,
11:03 you now, I'm not really hurting anyone,
11:05 I'm just in the back room on my computer,
11:08 on my phone,
11:09 no one's really seeing anything.
11:11 You know, they're doing those things to minimize it.
11:13 "Oh, yes, I'm doing, you know, masturbation,
11:15 it's to myself, it's not like I'm with somebody else."
11:18 They continue to minimize and minimize, minimize
11:21 and as they're minimizing
11:22 the sin is becoming more prevalent in their lives
11:25 and it's taking over until one day
11:27 they might wake up and it's like,
11:29 "Wait, my name is on a list."
11:30 And it's out of fear or someone might catch them,
11:33 they might have forgotten to clear their browsing history
11:36 because they've gotten so comfortable
11:37 with their ability to be able to hide it.
11:40 So you're minimizing the sin not repenting,
11:44 not asking God for forgiveness,
11:45 no, you need to say this is the problem...
11:48 I have an issue, a concern. Right.
11:51 And it's better to do it before you get caught.
11:56 I'm going to talk about it in a minute
11:57 when you get caught
11:59 but if you are still able to
12:00 "Be successful in your hiding...
12:04 Stop..." Yeah.
12:06 "You need to come to this point
12:07 where you realize something's going on..."
12:09 And if you can't stop, get some help to help you...
12:10 Get some help.
12:12 To help you stop, right,
12:13 because if you think it's not going to affect
12:15 other aspect of your life.
12:16 It is, you're going to leak
12:18 basically an aspect of your lives.
12:20 I think there's a...
12:21 In with most things
12:23 we are made to live in community.
12:27 God has created us to live in community.
12:30 And so if you cannot...
12:31 I can understand being a church leader,
12:35 I can understand not letting...
12:39 If I'm not telling my mentee
12:41 everything that I'm telling my best friend.
12:45 That's just, it's not wise
12:47 because there's an expectation here
12:49 where you should still be transparent,
12:53 you should still be authentic in both relationships.
12:58 There's a community I believe that everyone,
13:01 the people who suffer the most,
13:03 church leaders who suffer the most
13:05 don't feel like they have anywhere to go
13:09 to be their authentic selves
13:12 And there is a danger with only being pastor,
13:15 with only being a church leader if that's your only identity.
13:21 If that's where you identify yourself the most
13:24 and you feel like I can't be human,
13:27 then situations like what you just named suicide
13:31 when people realize that I'm not perfect
13:33 because I'm trying to live as if I am perfect in public
13:38 where only I knew about my sin,
13:41 now other people know about my sin.
13:42 That can be extremely traumatizing
13:46 and extremely overwhelming for the church leader.
13:49 And I just wanted to add really quickly
13:51 one thing that church leaders need to do is
13:55 look yourself in the mirror and say,
13:57 "I am not perfect.
13:59 Church leadership doesn't mean I am perfect."
14:03 God may have blessed to have you,
14:05 maybe be the pastor,
14:06 be the pastor's spouse,
14:08 be the person in charge of the youth,
14:10 all these different church related positions
14:12 but it's not because you're perfect.
14:14 That's not really why you're called to serve.
14:17 So that's one thing to be honest and say,
14:19 "I'm not perfect, I have problems,
14:20 I have faults
14:22 and this is the problem that I'm having,
14:23 I'm facing right now."
14:25 And like we were saying earlier,
14:26 it's not just males, it's also females.
14:30 And I feel females have a different level of concern
14:35 because we're supposed to be non-sexual beings.
14:38 We're not supposed to be visual sexual beings,
14:42 that's what most people assume,
14:44 so when you're caught in pornography
14:45 as a female most people like, "What?
14:48 That's not right, something's wrong with you."
14:50 And most women who might be viewing this program right now
14:52 is saying, "I'm most likely the only female
14:54 who ever struggled with pornography
14:57 and I'm a church leader,
14:58 something is awful with me,"
14:59 and that's not the case.
15:01 Right.
15:02 You know, that's where accountability comes into.
15:04 I mean, even trying some help,
15:06 praying for who to go to obviously
15:08 and telling the truth about who you are,
15:10 telling the truth to God about who you are...
15:12 He knows but so much you need to tell it to yourself
15:16 and then just say, "God, here I am.
15:18 I'm laying myself in front of you."
15:20 And I think what's important to have is accountability,
15:25 this idea that you, leadership does not happen,
15:27 you said it in isolation
15:29 and to see that accountability from other leaders, you know.
15:32 Yes, and so into the topic of women
15:35 and engaging in pornography as well,
15:39 there is, like you said a stigma
15:41 that that's something that men do.
15:43 That something that only strictly men do
15:45 because men are predominately visual,
15:49 that does not mean that women are not visual at all.
15:52 And so if you take just natural...
15:56 If you take a surface observation of women,
16:00 if you are a woman or if you listen to women talk,
16:03 you can look at a man and say that he's attracted.
16:07 You care about, you know, maybe the way he holds himself
16:11 in his stature
16:13 and how the way he grooms himself.
16:16 There are women are also visual and so you're not by yourself.
16:23 You're not alone in the reality that women are also visual,
16:29 maybe not as visual as men.
16:32 And so that doesn't have to be...
16:35 That's not a true...
16:37 That's not a true fact.
16:39 Yes. Right.
16:40 Like I said, that's not a true fact.
16:43 It's believed and people say it as fact
16:47 but it's not scientifically or spiritually accurate.
16:51 And you know, and pornography,
16:52 and as you're speaking I'm thinking of us,
16:54 yeah, it is visual.
16:56 When speaking to a mentor
16:57 somebody who exemplified being open
17:01 had struggle with pornography in terms of the written word
17:04 because I remember learning
17:05 that women words do something to you
17:08 and so if they're going to images,
17:10 especially went to words which conjure up ideas
17:13 that were pornographic, yeah, that they were...
17:16 Yeah, that she was escaping
17:17 and she got to get help for that
17:19 before she could actually be helpful to other people
17:21 who are struggling with that type of issue.
17:23 Right, right. Yeah.
17:25 That's still, I mean, to me in my mind
17:27 and maybe, maybe this is technically,
17:30 you know, not with...
17:32 It's not popular belief,
17:34 but the books that are extremely graphic
17:38 about sexuality and affairs,
17:42 these books actually,
17:43 you know, people read and that's pornography.
17:46 I mean, it is pornography...
17:47 It may not be the magazines...
17:49 Right. Yeah, it's a female version.
17:50 It changes your mind.
17:52 Because it allows you,
17:53 it's even in a sense more dangerous
17:56 because you can put anyone
17:58 into that role of what you're reading.
18:01 You can take people that you see
18:06 on a day to day basis and put their face on that...
18:10 Right, it's very, very dangerous.
18:13 And so that's something that I know more women,
18:17 in my limited perspective,
18:20 I've seen more women read those sorts of books
18:24 than I have men read those sorts of books,
18:26 but it's still pornography.
18:28 And I've seen it be minimized actually...
18:30 That this is not so bad,
18:32 and I think you made the very important point
18:33 that it's just as harmful.
18:35 It is, it is. It's just as harmful.
18:38 So we talked about a little bit about pornography,
18:40 church leadership
18:42 and struggling with the sin,
18:44 but what happens when you're caught
18:46 and everyone knows?
18:49 What happens to you when you're caught
18:51 and everybody knows as the church leader?
18:54 What happens to the spouse,
18:56 the children, even the parents?
18:58 Let's talk a little bit about that?
19:01 Well, you know, I think
19:02 hopefully the person is humbled.
19:04 And early in my experience, I had a...
19:07 A church leader that I really looked up to
19:09 and respected and was caught
19:11 and in addition to that he was caught having an affair
19:13 which is oftentimes a result
19:15 of filling your mind with strangers,
19:18 people who you put faces to,
19:19 suddenly you're like, you know what, I want to...
19:21 I'm going to act it out.
19:22 And that's what he did.
19:23 And I can tell you sitting there
19:25 in that group of other leaders
19:27 and hearing his confession, his tears,
19:31 his sobbing,
19:33 there was a lot of shame there
19:35 because he had been caught
19:37 but with the humility,
19:39 I mean, surely he was a broken person
19:40 and I have so many mixed feelings
19:44 but what I saw and grateful for
19:47 is that this person was wanting to be
19:48 on a journey of redemption.
19:50 He's like, "I will do anything to get back into,
19:53 to gain back your respect.
19:54 I will do anything.
19:55 I'm repenting and I want a different life.
19:58 And as leaders, in fact, I'm not perfect
20:03 and I'm tired of playing that role,"
20:05 he said something to that effect.
20:06 And you know what?
20:08 He did that, he went through,
20:09 he put himself under the leadership of another leader
20:11 and went to that journey...
20:12 Yeah, in humility, and accountability
20:14 with his wife
20:16 and doing everything necessary to show his transformation.
20:19 And so I think humility is important.
20:21 Yes, definitely, humility is definitely important.
20:24 You know, we have the story of David,
20:27 right and even though David wasn't caught in pornography,
20:30 it was still sexual sin.
20:32 And so as we group pornography and sexual sin
20:35 as the same things.
20:37 We can say that... It's not minimized.
20:39 Right, it's not minimized.
20:41 It's not appropriate to minimize it,
20:43 it is not minimized in the eyes of God.
20:45 It is still sexual sin.
20:47 And so when we look at the story of David
20:50 and Nathan came to him in rebuke.
20:54 It was for the purpose once again of restoration,
20:58 it wasn't for the purpose of,
21:00 you know, now I'm going to tell all of Israel
21:02 and you know, now you should feel ashamed of yourself,
21:06 where he did,
21:07 you know, there is a process of feeling ashamed,
21:10 but in David's household after,
21:12 you know, he impregnated Bathsheba and all of that,
21:15 his household they were mourning for him,
21:19 they were praying for him.
21:21 Nathan was still interceding on his behalf.
21:27 And so as Christians,
21:31 that as Christians and this is what,
21:33 yes, there is another standard in leadership,
21:36 but as Christians we understand
21:38 that we are supposed to be shepherding the world.
21:42 We are supposed to be shepherding the nation.
21:44 The pastor is the shepherd of the shepherds, right?
21:49 Ultimately God is all is our shepherd
21:52 but there's this myth,
21:55 the Lord allows us to participate in His ministry.
21:58 And so just as, you know, as an example
22:01 God is the creator,
22:03 He allows humans to participate in procreation.
22:06 And so in that same principle, God is the shepherd,
22:10 but He allows us to shepherd others
22:12 and so as we have this standard for our leaders
22:17 in sexual, you know, sexual immorality
22:19 you know, we should,
22:20 we should also have the same expectation of ourselves.
22:24 And so how do we...
22:26 How are we demonstrating Christ's love
22:29 to these leaders
22:30 that are falling into sexual sin?
22:33 Do we allow them privacy?
22:35 Do we allow them to have their accountability groups
22:39 or do we say that we need to know all of their business.
22:42 No, I don't believe that that's appropriate,
22:44 that we need to allow our church leaders
22:47 to have accountability groups
22:50 and to have some sort of privacy
22:52 so they can be encouraged
22:54 and they can be vulnerable in a way
22:56 that I don't want to hear all of my pastor's business,
23:00 you know, necessary, I don't unless I'm counseling him.
23:05 If I'm counseling him, that's one thing.
23:07 But if I'm just sitting in the congregation,
23:09 there are some people who don't want to hear
23:11 because everyone is at
23:13 different levels of faith, right?
23:15 The Bible talks about
23:16 how different things can be stumbling blocks.
23:19 And so it can be a stumbling block
23:22 for me to hear that my pastor has done this.
23:25 And so I don't think it's appropriate for us
23:28 to force our leaders to expose themselves
23:31 to the whole congregation
23:33 because you may be okay with hearing that,
23:35 but the person who just got baptized
23:38 or the person who just rededicated
23:40 their lives to Christ
23:42 may not be able to take that
23:43 and then possibly look at God as an unjust God
23:48 because they see that people can fall
23:52 and they're not ready to receive that information yet.
23:55 Turning back again on the whole,
23:56 you're caught in the pornography,
23:58 what does the community doing?
23:59 I want to just highlight what you said,
24:01 pray for the person.
24:04 Don't shame them,
24:05 don't be like, "Oh, look at what you did,"
24:07 Pray for them, support them,
24:09 help them to be able to get the resources
24:11 that they need to heal.
24:13 I also want to add that the spouses need support.
24:18 Because some of the things that they might be wondering is
24:21 why is it my spouse go to pornography,
24:24 the husband might be, am I not good enough,
24:25 am I not satisfying her,
24:27 that's a big thing for me.
24:28 Am I not doing what I'm supposed to do.
24:30 And women will be questioning themselves also
24:33 why is my husband looking at other women?
24:35 Am I not beautiful enough?
24:37 Am I not attractive enough?
24:38 And when a leader is caught in pornography, sexual sin,
24:44 we shouldn't just toss everyone to the side,
24:47 they need support also
24:49 to build up their self, their self-esteem,
24:51 their self image in God
24:53 to realize that they are what they need to be
24:55 and this is something completely different
24:57 out of them.
24:58 There's nothing...
25:00 There's no reason why the husband,
25:02 the wife did it related to them.
25:05 It wasn't because they were inefficient
25:07 that they weren't enough...
25:08 Right. Is a struggle that's within.
25:11 Right, right and I think that's very true.
25:13 I think the statistics actually show
25:15 that people who are engaged in pornography
25:18 in their adult life,
25:20 they get engaged in pornography
25:22 in like their junior high school age,
25:26 around when puberty first starts
25:28 and some even younger than that.
25:30 And so as you take on that, that understanding,
25:34 you know, wives, if your husband
25:36 is engaged in pornography
25:38 or, husbands, if your wives are engaged in pornography,
25:41 it's not personal,
25:43 it's something that more than likely
25:46 started way before they even met their spouse.
25:50 And so understanding that this is...
25:53 It's not a personal thing
25:55 but it is a spirit, it is spiritual.
25:57 And it is addicting.
26:00 It is something that they may, like you said before
26:05 hate themselves for
26:07 or feel disgusted with themselves for
26:09 and so to...
26:11 For you to also add on to that disgust is,
26:15 can really be even further demoralizing
26:20 because maybe you loved me and your love for me
26:24 is a part of what kept me to fight this thing,
26:27 but now that I feel like your love has grown less
26:33 then now, you know, I might want to commit suicide
26:37 or I might feel like I can no longer be used by God.
26:40 And so I will no longer pastor,
26:43 I will no longer be the elder or the deacon
26:46 and things like that.
26:47 And that's not the redemptive Gospel of Jesus Christ.
26:52 And so I believe that that's the...
26:54 Like what you just said, that's what, that's our,
26:56 that should be our response.
26:58 How can we bring this person closer to Christ?
27:00 How can we?
27:02 And let's not wait to pray for our leaders,
27:05 you know, you don't know what they're going through.
27:08 So you need to start praying for them
27:09 now would be, would be super important as well.
27:13 And hopefully we don't wait till they discovered
27:15 to be able to say this is what I'm going through,
27:18 they reach out for help.
27:20 And as we are wrapping up,
27:21 I want to be able to speak
27:23 just pertaining to the church leaders.
27:25 If you know you're in the sexual sin, repent.
27:29 And if you have repent, accept God's forgiveness.
27:33 And members who may know about this sexual sin
27:35 accept that God has forgiven them
27:37 and press forward.
27:39 2 Corinthians 5:17 says,
27:41 "This means that anyone who belongs to Christ
27:43 has become a new person.
27:44 The old life is gone and a new life has begun."
27:49 If you have done what is needed,
27:50 God has forgiven you.
27:52 So go, press forward and make pure choices.
27:55 Thank you.


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Revised 2017-08-20