Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000034A
00:30 Now the Book of Revelation is challenging in and of itself
00:34 but we are in the probably
00:36 most challenging part of the Book of Revelation.
00:39 The symbols and signs in the entire book are...
00:43 most people want to do a U turn
00:46 when they get to the Book of Revelation
00:47 but now we're in the seven trumpets
00:49 and specifically, Ivor,
00:51 we are in these verses in the seven trumpets
00:52 that to me are probably the most difficult
00:56 to decipher and understand and that's why I'm so thankful
00:59 that we have history already,
01:03 that we've established certain principles
01:05 as we've studied the churches and the seals
01:08 that will help us with the trumpets.
01:10 Now we've already looked at
01:11 the idea of these four prophetic cycles,
01:13 so we've seen the churches and we've seen the seals
01:17 beginning in Christ's day... in the Apostolic Age,
01:21 and then moving us through the history, prophetic history
01:24 but world history moving us all the way through
01:26 from Christ's day... all the way through to the very end of time
01:28 and the new heavens and the new earth.
01:30 In the churches we saw this,
01:32 the church of Ephesus began in the Apostolic Age...
01:34 and then, by the time we get to Laodicea
01:37 we've come all the way to our time.
01:39 Each one of the churches has promises that are given to those
01:42 who are going to be in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
01:44 "I'll make you a pillar in my temple... "
01:46 "I'll give you a new name... " "You'll sit on thrones with me"
01:48 all of that is "New Earth" language
01:50 so... then when we get to the seals
01:52 we do the same thing all over again.
01:54 The seals begin with this picture in heaven
01:56 and in the throne room
01:58 you see the Lamb... as it had been slain
02:00 and then the Spirit that's around the throne
02:03 is now sent into all the earth,
02:04 so you have the Holy Spirit being sent out,
02:06 just like... with the churches, "He that has an ear,
02:08 let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"
02:10 so, the implication of the churches is...
02:12 the Spirit is... it's poured out,
02:13 the clear symbolism of the seals
02:16 is that the Spirit has been sent out to all the earth
02:18 and then you have this history,
02:19 you have the white horse and you have the red horse
02:21 and you have the black horse and you have the pale horse,
02:23 taking us all the way down until John sees this great multitude
02:26 around the throne that no man could number
02:28 and they are praising God and they're being led by
02:31 rivers of waters and they don't cry anymore
02:33 and the sun doesn't light on them anymore
02:35 and that's the new heaven and the new earth
02:37 and then we get to the seven trumpets
02:39 and the seven trumpets... we know already,
02:41 we've established this... begins in the Apostolic Age
02:44 how do we know that?
02:45 Because the angel that is pictured in Revelation chapter 8
02:49 verses 3, 4 and 5, is standing by the altar
02:54 and then he's pictured as taking something from the altar
02:57 that symbolizes incense
02:59 and I think it's Christ's righteousness
03:01 and he's taking to the golden altar.
03:02 Well, the golden altar is
03:05 in the Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary
03:08 and the incense...
03:10 if it represents Christ's righteousness
03:11 has to be coming from the cross,
03:13 that's where Christ died for us, that's where His righteousness
03:16 His life was laid out for us
03:17 so He takes what He's done at the cross of Calvary
03:21 and He takes it to the Heavenly Sanctuary...
03:23 to the Holy Place... that happened at His ascension.
03:27 Yvonne: Hmmm...
03:28 James: I mean we know... as believers, we know right now
03:30 that Christ is actually in the very final aspect...
03:33 the final stages of His work in the Heavenly Sanctuary.
03:36 Yvonne: Does the incense not represent prayers?
03:39 I thought it represented prayers.
03:40 James: It does in Revelation chapter 5
03:43 because it says right there
03:45 that it presents the prayers of the saints
03:47 but in Revelation 8 the incense is mingled
03:50 with the prayers of the saints so that wouldn't make sense.
03:53 Ivor: We find... as the incense is rising
03:56 it symbolizes the fact the prayers of the saints
03:58 are ascending with the righteousness of Christ
04:01 without which our prayers would be...
04:04 Jason: So Christ is interceding on our behalf.
04:06 Ivor: Yeah... yes.
04:07 James: Yes, exactly and that's Ephesians 5 verse 2,
04:09 it talks there about how Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice...
04:13 a sweet smelling savor... Ephesians 5:2 says
04:16 so the incense mingles with...
04:17 and so we have the beginning of Christ's work
04:20 in the Sanctuary... now this is really powerful because
04:23 the first prophetic cycle of the churches
04:26 reveals Christ with us, incarnate, He's the Son of man
04:29 He's actually there on the isle of Patmos with John
04:32 so it's the incarnation, if you will...
04:34 it's an enactment of the incarnation.
04:36 The second prophetic cycle of the seals,
04:39 points to Christ crucified,
04:41 the lamb slain in the middle of the throne
04:43 and the third prophetic cycle of the trumpets,
04:46 points to Christ's mediation,
04:48 He's interceding with His righteousness...
04:51 with His incense... mingling it with our prayers
04:54 and then, as a result of that,
04:56 He gives us, again, the gift of His Holy Spirit.
04:59 The fire from the altar that's cast into the earth,
05:02 that's the same thing we see in the Book of Acts,
05:05 they were praying... the prayers were going up
05:09 mingling with Christ's righteousness
05:11 and then... a mighty rushing wind
05:13 and cloven tongues of fire rests on each one of them.
05:15 It's... Revelation 8
05:17 is an exact reenactment in symbolic language
05:21 of the Apostolic outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
05:25 Ivor: I think it's important... well, this chapter is so heavy
05:28 that this is the one that we really need to pray
05:31 on this program... before we get into the seven seals
05:36 and I'm going to share something about how...
05:39 a little recap if you will about how we can know
05:41 what these trumpets are going to be talking about
05:44 so, let's pray, "Heavenly Father,
05:47 bless us as we open your Word and as we get to this
05:51 particularly difficult portion of Scripture...
05:53 we pray that you would give us wisdom and guidance.
05:55 In Jesus' name we ask it. Amen. "
05:57 All: "Amen. "
05:58 Ivor: So, you'll remember that one of the things
06:02 we've been laying out in our previous programs is
06:06 that the Book of Revelation is written on patterns
06:09 and specifically the Sanctuary Pattern
06:13 and we saw that when we understand
06:16 what's happening with the seven churches,
06:18 with the seven seals, with the seven trumpets,
06:20 the opening visions of each of these
06:22 brings us into the Holy Place,
06:25 seven churches... seven-branched candlestick,
06:28 the seven seals... the Table of Shewbread
06:31 and the seven trumpets... the Altar of Incense
06:33 and the reason that that's crucial...
06:36 for us to understand is because remember in the Old Testament
06:39 the High Priest... as He ministered at one...
06:42 he was to minister at the other,
06:44 meaning that there was a simultaneous ministry.
06:47 When we understand that it's a simultaneous ministry,
06:50 we understand that...
06:51 whatever period of time the seven churches covered,
06:55 will be the same period of time covered by the seven seals,
06:59 will be the same period of time covered by the seven trumpets,
07:03 so that again gives us a framework
07:06 because you know there are a lot of people
07:08 that are talking about the seven trumpets
07:11 and... "Oh, the seven trumpets mean this... "
07:13 because again... it's the most difficult portion
07:15 of the Book of Revelation.
07:16 So, there are all kinds of thoughts about that...
07:20 about what the seven trumpets reveal
07:21 but if you're not looking at it
07:24 within the context of the Sanctuary...
07:25 you run the very real risk of interpreting it incorrectly,
07:32 so... so these seven churches, seven seals... seven trumpets...
07:37 the nice thing about... as we go through this...
07:39 through the... when we went through the seven churches
07:42 and saw the history... well, okay, we got that...
07:44 when we started going to the seven seals,
07:46 we could say, "Okay, are we right on this?
07:48 Well, let's double check, let's go back to the churches. "
07:50 Now with the trumpets...
07:52 we can double check... we can triple check...
07:55 James: We can triple check... I like that we can triple check.
07:58 Ivor: So, we know... what are the odds...
08:03 if these all match up generally speaking...
08:07 then we know that... yeah, that can't be coincidence.
08:11 You see what I'm saying.
08:13 Yvonne: Right, right, right.
08:14 Ivor: And so, we talked about...
08:16 I think we talked about the fact that
08:18 the seven churches began to go forth...
08:20 the first church began on the day of Pentecost,
08:22 okay, the rider on the white horse...
08:25 the preaching of the gospel, the day of Pentecost...
08:28 Peter gets up and preaches this powerful sermon
08:30 where 3,000 are converted in a day...
08:32 that's the rider on the white horse,
08:36 so the first trumpet or the trumpets...
08:40 as you've just pointed out with the fire falling
08:43 in answer to the prayers of the saints
08:45 mingled with the righteousness of Christ...
08:47 the day of Pentecost...
08:48 what we're seeing here is that these visions
08:51 occur... open up... begin...
08:54 on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit falls.
08:58 So we can parallel
09:00 these churches, seals, trumpets all the way down...
09:03 knowing... whatever we're looking for
09:05 it's got to be in the general
09:07 vicinity of first church, second church, third church
09:11 all the way down to seventh church.
09:12 Jason: I need a quick refresher on the white horse, red horse,
09:15 pale horse, black horse, what do they symbolize like...?
09:19 What are... what are they?
09:20 Ivor: Well, so we... look... okay,
09:23 first four churches are Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos and Thyatira,
09:29 so, remember the first church
09:31 was the church that started out pure...
09:33 but lost their first love,
09:35 the second church was a church of persecution
09:38 the third church was a church of compromise
09:41 and the fourth church we see
09:43 is where the Papal church becomes dominant
09:47 representing the dark ages so, just knowing that,
09:51 you already have the answer to the first four horses, right?
09:54 Because the white horse...
09:55 the gospel... going forth in great power,
09:58 the red horse... persecution...
10:00 "Oh, hey, that matches the first church...
10:02 matches the second church...
10:04 the rider on the black horse
10:06 with a pair of scales in his hands...
10:10 "Oh, wow, that's exactly what happened
10:12 in the third church period"
10:14 and then the fourth church... the rider on the pale horse...
10:16 we see actually brings us into dark ages
10:19 and even down to the investigative...
10:22 James: The rise of Atheism...
10:24 Ivor: Yeah, the rise of Atheism...
10:25 that's right, the rise of Atheism...
10:27 James: The judgment comes in the fifth...
10:28 and the fifth seal also in parallel.
10:29 Ivor: So, again we're able to check these... our conclusions
10:34 with what we've already laid...
10:36 what we've established in the seven churches.
10:38 So when you're... when you're studying on your own
10:41 and you're like, "Wait a minute...
10:43 what is the second trumpet again?"
10:45 What would you want to do?
10:47 You want to go back to the churches and say,
10:50 "Okay, okay, what's the second church?"
10:52 "What's the second horse?"
10:54 Ivor: Exactly... and that becomes a way
10:57 where you can... anywhere you fall...
10:59 sixth church... okay... let me go to the sixth seal...
11:02 or let me go to the sixth trumpet and you can look
11:04 and actually see... get a better idea of what you're looking for.
11:08 James: And here's an important point
11:10 just to add and build on what Ivor's saying...
11:12 so, while it repeats that history...
11:15 it will also add some details...
11:17 there may be some things in the trumpets
11:19 that we didn't find in the seals,
11:20 there may be some things in the seals
11:21 that we didn't find in the churches
11:23 about that same period of time.
11:24 Yvonne: The whole repeat and enlarge...
11:25 James: Yes and enlarging... and we're not...
11:28 we're not dogmatic about this... there's some flexibility here
11:31 in other words... there's some wiggle room...
11:33 God isn't saying, "Well, this trumpet...
11:34 started on this day and this day
11:36 and ends on this day and this day"
11:37 there's some overlap that takes place there
11:39 so we need to be flexible and then there is...
11:42 there's more meaning to what we're looking at
11:44 than may be that first meets our eyes,
11:47 God is able to put so much meaning
11:48 in this... in the Scripture...
11:50 and I think we've all seen that as we go through this,
11:52 we go back to the Old Testament saying,
11:53 "Whoa, the Old Testament is coming alive... "
11:57 as we use it as a way of magnifying the symbols
11:59 in the Book of Revelation, that really help us
12:02 so we have to understand the stories in the Old Testament.
12:05 Those stories lay a groundwork for interpreting...
12:07 like, for example, in the church of Thyatira,
12:11 we hear about the person of Jezebel...
12:13 well, Jezebel... that's from the Old Testament
12:15 so, we've got to go back to the Old Testament
12:18 and read and understand the story of Jezebel
12:20 to understand what she's doing in the church of Thyatira
12:24 and we find out that Jezebel was someone who compromised
12:27 the truth of God's Word... and led the nation of Israel
12:30 through the influence she had on her husband, Ahab,
12:33 into apostasy and rebellion against God
12:36 and then sought to kill God's prophets
12:38 and they had to hide from her
12:39 whoa... that is bringing us to the Dark Ages
12:43 and the same compromise that took place
12:45 and the same influence...
12:47 the false prophets and the religious leaders have on kings
12:49 and the same persecution that came against God's people...
12:53 they had to hide in caves... so we see that story opening up
12:56 the symbolism of what's taking place here in Thyatira.
12:58 Ivor: James, let me add something here real quick...
13:01 just to emphasize on the point you just made,
13:03 listen to the fourth trumpet,
13:06 we're not going to talk about what it is yet
13:07 but remember the terms he just used...
13:09 and he didn't... he wasn't... we didn't plan this...
13:12 so he just said, "This is a period
13:14 where there is... the Dark Ages
13:16 and he's led Israel into a period of darkness"
13:18 now listen to the fourth trumpet,
13:20 "The fourth angel sounded,
13:22 and the third part of the sun was smitten,
13:24 and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars;
13:27 so as the third part of them was darkened,
13:30 and the day shone not for a third part of it,
13:33 and the night likewise. "
13:35 I don't know what the fourth trumpet is yet,
13:38 right, but man! whatever it is wow, it's dark...
13:41 and it seems to parallel what we just talked about
13:44 in the fourth church which we know has to deal with Dark Ages
13:49 so, again, without even knowing yet what the fourth trumpet is,
13:53 we now have a clue that we're not looking for something
13:56 that's going to happen in the future,
13:59 we're looking for something that must generally match
14:02 the events under the fourth church.
14:06 Does that make sense?
14:07 Yvonne: Yeah... yes, yes, yes, it's good...
14:09 the four prophetic cycles are the churches, the seals,
14:13 the trumpets and what was the fourth one?
14:15 James: We called it the woman, the dragon and the beast
14:19 but I recently... as I've done more study on this,
14:22 I want to call it the seven vials...
14:25 the seven churches, the seven seals,
14:27 the seven trumpets and the seven vials...
14:29 and here's why... it begins in Revelation chapter 12
14:32 with the recap... Revelation 12, 13 and 14 are a recap
14:36 of the gospel, the conflict, the compromise...
14:39 everything that's happened but the main gist...
14:42 of the last cycle... is judgment.
14:44 James: 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, it's all judgment,
14:48 God is wrapping it up and it's so overwhelmingly
14:52 powerful... in the way that God is dealing with the sin problem
14:56 that he has to recap in 12 through 14,
14:59 He has to recap the apostasy... and His last effort
15:02 the everlasting gospel... the three angels' messages
15:04 to take the undiluted truth to all the world,
15:07 it has to recap that... so everyone knows
15:09 why he's allowing this judgment to finally come
15:11 so the seven vials...
15:12 Ivor: Yeah, let me add to that,
15:14 again, we're talking about patterns
15:15 and notice where the seven vials occur...
15:18 the vials and the emphasis of recap...
15:21 begins in Revelation chapter 12
15:23 Revelation chapter 11 verses 17 onward...
15:28 introduces us for the first time to the Most Holy Place
15:32 now, remember, seven churches, seals, trumpets,
15:36 they all unfold where? In the Holy Place... right,
15:40 in the Sanctuary there were two ministrations
15:44 the ministration in the Holy Place
15:46 and then the ministration of the Most Holy Place
15:48 was the Day of Atonement,
15:50 at the end of the Day of Atonement...
15:52 those who had not made themselves right with God
15:54 were cut off...
15:56 Ivor: So, it's significant that we find the seven vials
16:01 unfolding within the context of the Most Holy Place.
16:06 The whole book of Revelation
16:08 is based on the pattern of the Sanctuary.
16:11 Yvonne: Wow!
16:13 Ivor: The first three cycles... Holy Place...
16:16 the last cycle... the events that occur...
16:19 the Most Holy Place and afterward...
16:22 so when we can step back from the Book of Revelation
16:25 and see it... wow! there it is... the two halves...
16:28 we can see this one whole...
16:30 we're stepping back and looking at the forest
16:31 because, like I said, a lot of people jump into the trees
16:34 and don't understand the context of the forest
16:37 when we can steps back and see the forest,
16:39 "Ah, I get this now, now when I go into the trees,
16:42 I know where I am within the context of the forest,
16:45 I'm not lost... " like, okay,
16:47 "This must mean this and this must mean that... "
16:49 Yvonne: Yeah... yeah...
16:50 James: Good, so let's... let's go right now
16:53 into Revelation chapter 8, can we do that?
16:55 You guys feel pretty confident doing that?
16:56 Yvonne: Yeah... yeah...
16:58 James: So, we've already... again, in recap...
17:00 we've already begun this... this third prophetic cycle,
17:03 so we've already started the seven trumpets...
17:05 and what we've done basically...
17:07 is we've seen that the seven trumpets that are given,
17:09 that John sees... given to these seven angels
17:11 are put on hold for just a few verses
17:13 and they're put on hold because you have this picture
17:16 that we've already discussed
17:17 of this angel getting incense from the altar,
17:20 the cross, the righteousness of Christ,
17:22 His sacrifice... Ephesians 5:2 and he takes that sacrifice
17:26 and he mingles it with the prayers of the saints
17:29 in the Holy Place or before the golden throne,
17:32 okay, so you've got this picture of Christ interceding
17:35 and that has to come before the trumpets start to blow.
17:37 Yvonne: Hmmm...
17:39 James: Because indeed Jesus said to His disciples,
17:41 "I'll be leaving... I'm going to heaven...
17:43 and I'm going to come back... " excuse me...
17:44 "I'm going to send my Spirit back
17:46 so when I go... the Spirit's going to come"
17:48 that's what we see taking place in those verses
17:50 "And when He comes, you're going to be filled...
17:51 and I want you to preach the gospel to Jerusalem first
17:54 then to Samaria and then to the uttermost parts of the world"
17:58 because when that gospel is preached...
18:00 it prepares the world to make a decision
18:03 for or against God and then judgment can come.
18:05 The trumpets are by and large judgments that are coming
18:08 and so what happens is first of all... Jesus says in Matthew 24
18:12 the gospel is going to be preached
18:13 and then the first thing that's going to happen
18:15 within this generation...
18:16 and we're talking about Biblically speaking,
18:19 about 40 years is that this temple is going to be destroyed
18:22 not one stone is going to be left upon another
18:25 that will not be thrown down,
18:26 so Revelation 8 is basically a short, symbolic analysis
18:30 of what Jesus says in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21,
18:34 He's basically saying, "First the gospel gets preached
18:38 as this Holy Spirit is poured out upon you,
18:40 to all these nations... first to Jerusalem
18:41 and then... after the gospel is preached...
18:43 boom... the trumpet blows, Jerusalem comes down... "
18:46 so the first angel that sounds is... in our previous program...
18:51 is the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70...
18:54 we have the blood and hail mingled with fire
18:57 and all of those symbolize... they're not literal
19:00 because blood and hail mingled with fire falling out of the sky
19:03 can't... we can't literally see that as happening so
19:06 what it is... it's a symbol.
19:07 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
19:09 Ivor: Let me add here that the reason that we know
19:11 that is because... on the day of Pentecost when fire falls
19:14 Peter gets up to preach
19:15 and when he preaches he quotes from Joel chapter 2.
19:18 James: Yes.
19:19 Ivor: Joel chapter 2 begins... "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion"
19:22 it was a warning... in that same chapter,
19:25 it talks about blood and fire, blood and hail mingled with fire
19:29 it talks about all these things and then Peter says,
19:31 "Hey, what Joel spoke... you're seeing these things...
19:34 these things are about to happen"
19:36 and you're looking up in the sky like,
19:37 "blood and smoke... I don't see any of that"
19:40 but guess what it was...
19:41 it was a description of the destruction
19:43 that was coming upon Jerusalem
19:45 which is exactly what Peter was warning,
19:47 that's why he quoted Joel chapter 2
19:48 because in Joel 2... it says, "A nation is coming... "
19:51 James: Hmmm... hmmm... Yvonne: Hmmm...
19:52 Ivor: "If you don't repent... a nation is coming"
19:55 and guess what? 70 A.D. that nation came.
19:58 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
19:59 Ivor: And it was this... the destruction of Jerusalem.
20:01 James: And we saw trees burned up
20:02 and we saw green grass burned up,
20:04 and in the Bible... trees represent Leaders...
20:07 Nebuchadnezzar was likened under a tree...
20:09 Jesus even likened Himself to a tree...
20:11 and then grass... represents people
20:13 specially people who are wicked,
20:15 "all flesh is grass" "the wicked are like grass"
20:18 and so when it says the trees and the grass...
20:20 it's talking about the Leaders in Jerusalem
20:23 who had misled the people and then all of the people
20:25 over a million people lost their lives
20:28 in the destruction of Jerusalem
20:30 and the blood ran down the steps,
20:32 the Romans even pled with them,
20:34 they didn't want to destroy that temple,
20:35 they didn't want to destroy Jerusalem but it was prophetic
20:37 and God had said it was going to happen...
20:39 "not one stone will be left upon another
20:41 that will not be thrown down. "
20:43 Ivor: Remember that Jesus Himself
20:44 talked about the fig tree and when He cursed the fig tree,
20:50 it was a symbol of the fall of the Jewish nation,
20:54 so it is not insignificant, this is not coincidence here
20:58 that the symbol of the tree is used
21:01 to denote the fall of Israel.
21:03 Yvonne: Hmmm...
21:04 James: Okay and so then... we're looking at the...
21:06 the... that was the first trumpet which we've covered...
21:09 we're just kind of reviewing right now
21:10 and that was verse 7
21:12 and now we're looking at the second angel
21:14 and we did cover this already but I'm going to review
21:16 just a little bit of this verse, verse 8...
21:18 "And the second angel sounds, and as it were a great mountain
21:23 burning with fire was cast into the sea:
21:26 and the third part of the sea became blood... "
21:28 now, again, this is either literal or it's symbolic,
21:31 we are going to stay with symbolism,
21:35 we believe that they started out symbolic in these trumpets
21:38 and it's going to continue to be symbolic.
21:40 So when we're looking at a mountain burning with fire,
21:42 and we've already identified this so I'm just reviewing...
21:45 The mountain burning with fire in the Old Testament...
21:48 the mountain was a symbol of a kingdom or a government
21:52 in... I think it was... Isaiah, no... Jeremiah 51...
21:56 the mountain was a symbol of Babylon
21:58 and in Daniel chapter 2,
22:01 God's kingdom is likened to a mountain
22:03 that fills the whole earth
22:04 but when a mountain is burning with fire,
22:06 that means... judgment is coming upon it
22:08 because fire symbolizes judgment
22:10 in the context of this "burning up"
22:12 and so, here you have this judgment coming upon a kingdom
22:16 and that kingdom is pagan Rome
22:19 and the reason why we know it's pagan Rome is
22:21 because trumpets in the Bible, we've already identified
22:24 as being blown for God's people to go forward,
22:27 in Jericho they went forward and Jericho came down,
22:30 God's people go forward and God brings His enemies down
22:34 and in the early church, there were two specific powers
22:37 that were the enemies of God's people
22:39 and those powers were given an opportunity to hear the gospel
22:42 and accept the gospel or to avert the judgment,
22:45 and those who didn't receive the gospel...
22:48 judgment was coming to them,
22:49 judgment first came to Jerusalem
22:51 and then it was going to come to Pagan Rome
22:52 and that's why Jesus said,
22:54 remember that verse where Jesus says,
22:55 "You see what I've done to this fig tree,
22:57 I say unto you, you say unto this mountain,
22:59 'be moved and cast into the sea' and it shall be done. "
23:03 Incredible... how Jesus... what He understood...
23:08 and the way He presented truth to us,
23:10 in other words... in that single verse,
23:12 Jesus is explaining Jerusalem and Pagan Rome.
23:16 Ivor: Yeah. Yvonne: Wow!
23:17 James: Jerusalem is the fig tree pagan Rome is the mountain.
23:19 Ivor: Hmmm... hmmm...
23:20 James: The fig tree is coming down... it's going to be cursed
23:21 and the mountain is going to be cast into the sea
23:23 and so, Jesus is using the same language here in Revelation
23:26 when He's talking about the trees being burned up
23:29 and then the mountain being cast into the sea.
23:31 Here's what's interesting, Ivor,
23:33 and I know you understand this too,
23:35 the sea represents peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues,
23:39 when Rome fell... it wasn't conquered by another nation,
23:43 like it had conquered Greece
23:45 and Greece had conquered Medo-Persia
23:46 and Medo-Persia had conquered Babylon,
23:48 it was swallowed up
23:49 by the peoples and nations and tongues of Europe.
23:52 Yvonne: Hmmm...
23:53 James: So, it was cast into the sea.
23:54 Ivor: There was in-fighting... James: Yes.
23:56 Ivor: And one of the things we saw about the trumpets...
23:58 remember... three things you saw about the trumpets,
23:59 Number One: In Numbers 10...
24:01 when the trumpets were blown, God's people advanced.
24:03 Yvonne: Hmmm...
24:04 Ivor: Number Two... when the trumpets are blown,
24:05 God's enemies fall...
24:07 the enemies fall... so that His people can advance
24:10 and Number Three... the story of Gideon...
24:11 when the trumpet was blown...
24:13 they turned their swords on one another,
24:14 Rome and Jerusalem...
24:16 that worked together to put Jesus to death...
24:20 Rome turns on Jerusalem and destroys it.
24:22 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... Ivor: People of God advance,
24:24 Rome... that persecuted the church
24:27 during the 2nd and 3rd century, turns on itself... in-fighting.
24:30 That in-fighting gives God's people... space and time...
24:34 to advance... we're seeing a pattern that
24:36 God uses Satan's own weapons on himself.
24:39 Yvonne: Right... right...
24:41 James: So it's amazing really when you see the symbolism here
24:45 because all of it makes sense in the context
24:48 of the prophetic parallels that we've been looking at,
24:50 in the context of the way the Bible identifies these symbols
24:53 and in the flow of the history that we're seeing in the world.
24:57 So we look at the Bible...
24:59 we allow the Bible to interpret itself,
25:01 we'll allow the Bible to interpret the symbols
25:03 and then we look for the history and we notice the parallels,
25:06 the prophetic parallels that repeat and enlarge each other
25:09 and those... all those principles help us
25:12 to affirm the interpretation that we're giving right here.
25:15 Yvonne: Right...
25:16 James: And that's what we need to do,
25:17 we got to allow the Bible to affirm and interpret itself
25:20 and then we are on track... and it all starts making sense.
25:23 Yvonne: I love the way you guys have... by the grace of God
25:27 under the unction of the Holy Spirit
25:29 and just pull from different verses
25:32 to show the cohesiveness here
25:34 that... no... this is not just an isolated Book,
25:38 this is cohesiveness... stuff from the Old Testament
25:42 and other parts of the New Testament
25:45 just pulling it all together,
25:46 it's just... it's fascinating to me.
25:48 Jason: It's got Christ on every page...
25:49 Yvonne: Yes... yes.
25:50 Jason: I remember hearing a sermon
25:52 when Christ was on every page.
25:54 Yvonne: Yes... yes...
25:55 James: And that's what we want to do...
25:56 as we go through Revelation,
25:58 we want to be looking for Christ in the gospels
26:00 really this is not just about history and events,
26:02 this is really about the gospel
26:05 and it's about... what happens when the gospel is preached,
26:08 how that gospel affects and determines
26:10 the destiny of nations and individuals
26:13 and how every one's hearts and lives are tested
26:16 by the proclamation of that gospel...
26:18 if we have those glasses on
26:20 as we look at the Book of Revelation,
26:21 it's really going to make sense,
26:23 everything is going to come together
26:25 and we're going to see the big picture in the end,
26:27 it's all about following the Lamb wherever He goes
26:29 so that He can keep us from
26:31 the beast and the dragon and the deception
26:33 that's coming upon the world in the end of time.
26:35 So I know there are people who are going to be asking
26:37 about this program as far as input, questions,
26:42 all kinds of materials that
26:45 hopefully will be available soon,
26:47 how are they going to do that?
26:49 Jason: They should send an e- mail to: sss
26:52 as in Salvation in Symbols and Signs
26:54 @3abn. org
26:55 we'd love video submissions,
26:58 we've been receiving a lot of e-mails
27:00 but we love video submissions
27:01 so we can roll it into the program.
27:03 So, if we receive a video from somewhere,
27:05 we're actually going to roll that in the program.
27:08 Well, say, "Okay, we just had a question from Joe
27:11 down in Alabama and he's asking about... "
27:13 and we put him on...
27:15 Jason: Yes... we would love to
27:16 so they can be on 3abn, they can join us.
27:19 James: Here's your opportunity to join us.
27:20 Yvonne: That's right...
27:22 James: All right, well, we didn't really get into...
27:24 we haven't really picked up yet on where we left off
27:27 but I think our review was really good.
27:29 Yvonne: Oh yes... yes... James: It was good for all of us
27:30 and hopefully good for our audience
27:31 and those who are watching... so our Viewers...
27:33 so as we pick up... in our next program,
27:36 we're going to pick up in Revelation chapter 8
27:38 and we're going to be transitioning now
27:40 from verse 8 to verse 9... this is new territory...
27:42 it's going to be a little challenging but
27:44 I think, it's going to be a blessing
27:46 for those of us who are keen on understanding the symbols
27:50 in the Book of Revelation.
27:51 Yvonne: Yes, yes.
27:53 James: So far so good?
27:54 Yvonne: Oh yeah... yeah...
27:55 James: All right, looking forward to continuing
27:57 our program and for God's continued leading.
27:59 Yvonne: Amen... amen.