Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000036A
00:29 Okay, so we're continuing our study in Revelation 7 trumpets
00:33 and we have, right now, moved from the second to the third
00:37 and we're not quite finished with the third...
00:40 we spent a little bit of time there... talking about the Lamb
00:42 and the angel that fell from heaven...
00:45 the star that fell from heaven, we identified as Lucifer
00:47 according to Isaiah 14...
00:49 and bringing us a lamp... the Word of God
00:51 so it's a counterfeit of God's Word...
00:53 according to Psalm 119:105
00:55 falling upon the rivers and fountains of waters,
00:58 rivers, fountains of waters representing the gospel,
01:01 the proclamation of truth, the righteous
01:04 and those who are turning away
01:07 because it's turning them into wormwood or bitterness
01:10 and we... that's what we got to spend more time on, I think,
01:12 is verse 11, and we'll talk about that.
01:14 So, Jason, will you start with a word of prayer
01:17 and we'll get right into
01:19 and continue our study in the third trumpet.
01:21 Jason: All right, "Dear Heavenly Father,
01:23 we ask that you would please bless us with your Holy Spirit
01:27 to lead us into all truth as we study your Word,
01:31 in Jesus' name we pray, amen. "
01:32 All: "Amen... "
01:33 James: All right, so, Yvonne,
01:35 can you read for us then... let's just pick up...
01:37 well, actually, let's read verse 10
01:39 just so that we get the context so verse 10 and then verse 11.
01:41 Yvonne: Sure, "And the third angel sounded,
01:44 and there fell a great star from heaven,
01:46 burning as it were a lamp,
01:47 and it fell upon the third part of the rivers,
01:50 and upon the fountains of waters;
01:51 And the name of the star is called Wormwood:
01:54 and the third part of the waters became wormwood;
01:57 and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. "
02:01 James: Okay, so this again is symbolic
02:04 and we've got to look up the words...
02:07 get a Biblical perspective on them...
02:09 Ivor, you started us out on that
02:12 with some insights on wormwood...
02:14 Ivor: Hmmm... hmmm...
02:16 James: And the bitterness... and I think you talked about
02:17 in relation to Christ being the tree
02:20 that was put into the waters to make them sweet
02:22 so, "wormwood" from that perspective
02:24 is an absence of Christ
02:26 and we see Christ being taken out
02:28 in the Dark Ages in the compromise...
02:29 Christ is taken out and compromise takes place
02:33 with the gospel...
02:34 I wanted to share a couple of other verses
02:36 that would confirm that... affirm that...
02:39 and bring us a little bit further into understanding that,
02:41 the first one is in Deuteronomy 29,
02:43 Deuteronomy 29 and verse 18 and this verse here
02:49 indicates that "wormwood" is when we turn away from God
02:54 so it says, basically, the same thing you were talking about
02:56 "wormwood" is basically when we turn away from God
02:59 so Deuteronomy 29 verse 18...
03:02 Jason, you want to read that for us?
03:03 Jason: Sure. James: If you can find it.
03:05 Jason: All right... oops no... that's not it...
03:08 hold on... Deuteronomy 29:18?
03:15 Jason: Scrolling, scrolling, scrolling... there we go...
03:20 "Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family,
03:24 or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day
03:27 from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods
03:30 of these nations; lest there should be among you
03:33 a root that beareth gall and wormwood... "
03:37 James: It's interesting isn't it the way he's talking there,
03:39 he's saying... to bear wormwood...
03:42 to bear a bit of wormwood and gall...
03:44 is to serve other gods...
03:45 is to turn away from God and serve other gods.
03:47 Ivor: Idols...
03:48 James: Idols and its very interesting because
03:51 here you got this incredible Book of Revelation
03:53 and all it does is... it simply borrows... borrows...
03:56 borrows... it's already...
03:58 God has already written all the stuff and God said,
04:00 "Oh, I'll put that verse... oh, I'll put that word in there
04:01 and they'll go look up 'wormwood'
04:03 and they'll remember all the other things I told them"
04:04 but here's the point,
04:06 God doesn't necessarily want us to pick and choose
04:08 like, "Oh, there's a verse...
04:10 oh, there's another verse... I'll put... "
04:11 He wants us to read the whole story.
04:14 He wants us to get a picture of the whole story
04:17 what's happening in the Old Testament...
04:18 one of the ways that God keeps us
04:21 is by reminding us of His leadings in the past.
04:23 So we read through these stories
04:25 and we get a picture of it and then... poom!
04:28 we plug in the symbol... we plug in the meaning...
04:29 so, that's one of them.
04:31 Ivor: Wait, before you move on, let's look at the context of
04:34 Deuteronomy 29:18...
04:35 James: That's what we're talking about, okay.
04:36 Ivor: Were you're going there?
04:38 James: No, I was going to somewhere else.
04:40 Ivor: Before you go there...
04:41 because, what's really interesting is that
04:43 back up in verse 12... it tells us here
04:48 verse 12... "That thou shouldest
04:50 enter into covenant with the Lord thy God,
04:53 and into his oath,
04:54 which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day... "
04:57 the whole context of Deuteronomy 29
04:59 is the context of the covenant and God says,
05:02 "Look, I'm watching some of your children...
05:04 those that are gathered with you,
05:05 those that are not here today,
05:06 remember this covenant, remember how I led you... "
05:09 and then He goes into verse 18 where it says,
05:12 "Look, you've seen the other nations and the gods
05:14 that they took to themselves so, remember my covenant...
05:18 don't defy yourselves with these other gods... "
05:23 the reason why that is...
05:25 that context is so powerful to understand
05:28 is because what's happening in this time period,
05:30 is that there's a forsaking of the covenant of the Lord
05:33 and they are in the place of the covenant...
05:36 taking to them other gods which produces wormwood.
05:40 James: Hmmm... hmmm... Yvonne: Hmmm...
05:42 Ivor: If you were to take...
05:43 remember we were in the third trumpet here, right?
05:46 Jason: Right. Yvonne: Hmmm...
05:48 Ivor: So, what can we parallel this to?
05:49 Third church... right... and in the third church
05:53 I believe this is Revelation chapter 2 verse 14,
05:57 it actually says there that..
05:58 "I have somewhat against thee because
05:59 you have them there that teach the doctrine of Balaam
06:02 that taught the children of Israel
06:05 to become a stumbling block and to worship... "
06:09 what? "Idols... "
06:10 Yvonne: Yes...
06:11 Ivor: Idols... so when you can parallel,
06:13 right, which is what we're doing
06:15 again, when you get to like the 5th and 6th trumpet...
06:17 James: The parallel...
06:20 Ivor: this is key because even with the 5th and 6th trumpet...
06:23 we were just talking about this that there's a lot of different,
06:25 "Oh, the 5th and 6th trumpet...
06:27 we think it's this or it's that"
06:29 but when you have these checks and balances
06:32 that keep you in the parameter of... you know...
06:35 okay... we know what we're looking for
06:37 and it's no longer guess work...
06:39 it's, "I'm stepping back, I see the big picture...
06:41 I'm seeing these parallel"
06:43 and so back to "wormwood... "
06:44 we're seeing wormwood representing
06:47 a denial of the covenant... a worshipping of idols...
06:50 and this is exactly what is going on in this time period.
06:53 James: Yeah, I'm just... I'm pretty excited about this
06:56 principle... and a thought keeps coming to my brain
07:00 and it's jumping way forward in a sense...
07:02 but I just want to throw it out there since you brought this up
07:05 we're going to see an affliction take place
07:08 in trumpets 5 and 6, they're called "wolves"
07:11 and they're God's way of disciplining...
07:13 bringing affliction in order to bring to a...
07:16 a call to repentance
07:17 and in the 4th church... the church of Thyatira
07:21 who has the woman Jezebel,
07:22 "I would put her into a bed of affliction,
07:25 I will give her space to repent,
07:27 I'll give her time to repent of her idol worship"
07:29 and that parallels the 5th and 6th because
07:32 it says, "And they repented not of their worship of idols"
07:34 at the end of this...
07:36 "they repented... she repented not of their worship of idols
07:37 and with their gold and silver" and I'm thinking,
07:39 "Whoa... " so, definitely what Ivor's saying here is
07:41 so powerful... because all the way through
07:43 we have this checks and balances that help us to see
07:45 if we're in the right course.
07:47 Ivor: So we know that 5 and 6... trumpets 5 and 6 then
07:49 just on what you just said,
07:50 must be something in response to this woman Jezebel
07:55 in church 4, right,
07:58 which says, "Hey, she's not repenting...
08:00 all right... we're going to have this happen
08:02 and let's see what happens... let's see if they repent"
08:05 but what does it say? "They repented not. "
08:07 So all these things help us to go,
08:09 "Yeah, you know what, this book is not thrown together...
08:11 we're not just pulling pieces here and there...
08:13 there is actually a divine design
08:17 in the Book of Revelation. "
08:19 Yvonne: For sure, for sure.
08:22 James: Divine design... Ivor: Divine design...
08:23 James: I've got to remember that... yeah, that's a really
08:25 good phrase... okay, here's a another verse.
08:26 Yvonne: I have a quick question. James: Yes.
08:28 Yvonne: So, the whole "Jezebel" thing...
08:29 when a woman is brought up in Revelation, it's often...
08:34 as relates to the church. James: It is.
08:37 Yvonne: Jezebel... does she represent a wicked church?
08:40 James: Yes.
08:41 Yvonne: Not just a spirit of an evil woman
08:44 but a church... an apostate church.
08:46 James: Yes. Yvonne: Okay.
08:47 James: She represents an apostate church,
08:49 so, here's a woman who is symbolizing an apostate church
08:53 because when you go back to the history,
08:54 you see that this woman, herself,
08:56 turned away from God and turned others away from God
09:00 and then persecuted God's people...
09:02 specifically the prophets, they had to hide in a cave.
09:05 Ivor: A harlot in the Bible
09:07 is one that does not abide by wedding vows
09:11 okay, it's one that doesn't regard wedding vows
09:14 and so you think about Christ and His bride,
09:17 they have wedding vows, Christ proposed to the church
09:22 at the cross, "Will you marry me?
09:24 This is how much I love you... this is how much I love you,
09:27 will you marry me?" Yvonne: Yes, yes.
09:28 Right, but you're not marrying when someone proposes to you,
09:31 you're only married after you exchange vows.
09:33 Yvonne: And you go through the covenant.
09:35 Ivor: Exactly, and the vows are the covenant,
09:37 so, Christ is like,
09:39 "Do you promise to have no other gods before me?"
09:41 "I do... "
09:43 "Do you promise not to take my name in vain
09:46 or worship any graven images?" "I do. "
09:49 But the church that says, "These vows, man,
09:53 they're legalistic. " What? I mean...
09:56 when you're in love... the wedding vow is never legalistic.
10:00 James: Nothing's legalistic.
10:01 Ivor: Nothing... when you're not in love,
10:03 your wedding vows are bondage...
10:04 "What have I gotten myself into?"
10:06 Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:07 Ivor: So, the harlot is like...
10:09 "No, I don't want these wedding vows,
10:10 I still want to be called by your name...
10:12 but I'm not going to obey the vows. "
10:13 Yvonne: Hmmm...
10:14 Ivor: So any church that is against the commandments of God,
10:18 represents... or is symbolic of what we're looking at here.
10:21 Yvonne: Wow!
10:22 James: And that's what we find in this verse...
10:24 this next verse which is in Amos chapter 5 and verse 7
10:28 it's really interesting, it says,
10:31 "You who turn judgment to wormwood,
10:34 and leave off righteousness in the earth... "
10:37 so, so... wormwood here
10:40 is likened unto "leaving righteousness off in the earth,
10:43 forsaking righteousness, turning away from righteousness"
10:47 well, if you combine that verse with Jeremiah 23 and verse 6,
10:50 there Jeremiah tells us that Jesus Christ
10:53 is going to be called, "the Lord our righteousness. "
10:56 Yvonne: Hmmm...
10:57 James: "The Lord our righteousness," so... so...
10:59 to leave off righteousness is to leave off the Lord...
11:02 is to have an unfaithful relationship with the Lord,
11:04 it's to refuse that covenant relationship with Jesus Christ.
11:07 Ivor: The water without the tree.
11:08 James: The water without the tree.
11:10 Yvonne: Hmmm...
11:11 James: Bitter... bitter... I love that,
11:14 okay, so those are two more verses that just affirm
11:18 what's taking place here as we look at
11:20 Revelation chapter 8 and verse 10 or excuse me,
11:25 verse 11... the name of that star is called wormwood.
11:27 So now, this is really interesting,
11:29 the name of that star...
11:30 now the word, "name" represents His character.
11:33 This star... this fallen angel,
11:36 this messenger that fell from heaven,
11:39 his character is wormwood,
11:40 his character is turning people away from Jesus,
11:42 his character is turning people away
11:44 from a covenant relationship with God,
11:45 his character is turning people away from the Law of God.
11:47 That's his purpose, that's his character...
11:50 that's what... that's the kind of character that he's developed
11:53 and so, then you have to ask yourself the question,
11:56 "What kind of character are we developing
11:58 if we're doing the same things?"
11:59 We're developing the same character as the deceiver,
12:02 as the accuser... as the one who's fallen...
12:04 as the fallen angel and that's what's taking place here
12:07 in the context of these verses and we can affirm those
12:10 that in history... so what happens?
12:11 "The third part of the waters become bitter... wormwood:
12:15 and many men died of the waters,
12:17 because they were made bitter. "
12:19 What does that mean? Waters represent the gospel,
12:23 they represent life... the water of life...
12:24 I wanted to give a couple of references on this
12:26 but if they're made bitter then, the people are dying
12:31 because the waters don't have the tree...
12:34 they don't have Christ, they're bitter,
12:36 they're "Christless" Christless doctrines...
12:40 Christless teachings, legalism, righteousness by works
12:44 all of the different church traditions
12:47 that you needed to follow
12:49 without Christ in the middle of it.
12:51 Now, are we in danger of the same thing?
12:53 I think every Denomination is, I really do.
12:56 I think Catholicism is something that we like to
12:59 try to put in a little neat corner over here
13:01 and say, "Well, we're not like them"
13:03 but I think it's really the religion of a natural heart.
13:05 When you combine Christianity with Paganism,
13:09 you've come to the religion of the natural heart,
13:12 what we're naturally inclined to do.
13:14 Adam and Eve were naturally inclined to do that.
13:16 Remember when they sewed fig leaves together?
13:18 They were naturally trying to cover their nakedness
13:21 and we're still trying to cover our nakedness
13:23 so, Cain and Abel...
13:24 Cain was bringing the fruits of his hands,
13:26 fruits of his labors to God and it's interesting that
13:31 that there are certain sacrificial requirements
13:36 that involve fruit but this one didn't...
13:38 this one involved putting your faith
13:40 totally in the sacrifice of the Lamb... of Jesus...
13:43 so, that's our natural inclination,
13:45 we can't put it off over here
13:46 to another Denomination necessarily,
13:48 we need to be aware of it
13:49 but the history is really clear here...
13:51 the history of the development of this power in the earth
13:56 it will cause many people to die
13:59 and be made bitter to be without Christ...
14:01 even though they may have had the church,
14:02 they didn't have Jesus.
14:04 James: Any other thoughts on the third trumpet
14:07 or any other questions about it?
14:09 Ivor: Well, I would just point out here that
14:12 we're going to... we're going to see something
14:15 that's another important point for us to consider
14:18 as we're looking at these upcoming trumpets.
14:20 James: Okay. Ivor: Is that there is no...
14:22 under the first trumpet... it was the fall of Jerusalem,
14:25 the second trumpet... the fall of Rome,
14:28 we don't have a "fall" here.
14:30 James: Right, in a sense... we have a compromise.
14:32 Ivor: There's a compromise but it's not a fall.
14:35 Ivor: What power are we talking about here?
14:37 This is the Papal Power, right,
14:40 so we're talking about
14:42 God's true people who were living this time...
14:46 would have been able to look and see the effects
14:50 of this bitter water...
14:52 men don't have peace...
14:53 this gospel... something's wrong with this gospel...
14:56 the waters are bitter, you see what I'm saying?
14:58 But it still wasn't a fall...
15:00 remember, we're talking about the Papacy here,
15:01 the Papacy does not fall until 1798
15:07 so what we're going to see...
15:08 I'm kind of like giving you a sneak preview here,
15:10 is that trumpets 3, 4, 5 and 6 will all be... will all assist
15:18 in the fall of the Papacy by 1798.
15:23 Yvonne: Ah... they kind of lead up to...
15:26 Ivor: Exactly, these events so, this is a spiritual...
15:30 this trumpet is spiritual in nature.
15:33 It's talking about doctrines and teachings
15:35 and again I'm jumping ahead,
15:39 I don't want to jump too far ahead but
15:40 remember that the Papacy is... well, I'm just going to say...
15:44 you're going to have to wait, I'm sorry...
15:45 James: Let me fill in here and just pick up right there.
15:49 So, this is really significant because in the 4th church,
15:52 Thyatira... Jezebel is given time to repent
15:56 she's given time... so Jerusalem they had their time
16:00 and so we pick it up right where they're ready for final judgment
16:03 Pagan Rome... they had their time
16:04 and so we pick it up when they're ready for final judgment
16:06 but now we're picking this up where the time is being given
16:09 that's where we are in prophecy
16:10 so the time is being given so here's what happens,
16:12 in the 4th trumpet, there is a...
16:14 either going to be a repentance
16:16 or there's going to be a deepening of the apostasy,
16:18 5th trumpet... repentance or a deepening of the apostasy,
16:21 6th trumpet... repentance or a deepening of the apostasy,
16:24 that's what happens... it either goes one way or the other.
16:26 We either go... we either get worse and worse
16:28 or we pull away and we repent of those deeds
16:30 and that's the same way with all of us
16:32 and those are principles that we can bring out of this.
16:34 So when we get to the 4th trumpet,
16:36 what are we going to see?
16:38 Are we going to see repentance or are we going to see
16:39 a deepening of the apostasy?
16:41 Ivor: Hmmm... hmmm...
16:42 James: All right, so shall we move into the 4th...?
16:43 Yvonne: Yeah. James: Okay, let's read...
16:45 Jason, would you want to read for us
16:46 Revelation chapter 8 and let's just go ahead and read
16:50 both verses, well, let's just read verse 12
16:53 because the next one is going to transition us
16:56 into the next three so Revelation 8 verse 12.
16:58 Jason: Okay, "And the fourth angel sounded,
17:01 and the third part of the sun was smitten,
17:03 and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars;
17:06 so as the third part of them was darkened,
17:09 and the day shone not for a third part of it,
17:12 and the night likewise. "
17:14 James: All right, this is where we've been...
17:17 where I've been excitedly looking to
17:20 because we've got some symbols here
17:23 that are actually going to be interpreted
17:26 in the Book of Revelation, the sun, the moon and the stars,
17:28 the sun, the moon and the stars and we've got a development here
17:32 of the Pergamos church to the Thyatira church
17:35 and we can see the history there of the persecution
17:38 the Dark Ages and the persecution again
17:40 against God's people if we think about the history,
17:42 what we're looking here in this verse 4 is...
17:45 is an interpretation that will tell us
17:47 that the Papal Power began to grow... become stronger
17:50 and then it turned itself against God's faithful people
17:54 and began to persecute and afflict those people
17:56 and included in that persecution was also
18:00 a push against the Bible, against the light of truth,
18:04 against the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
18:06 Now the reason why I think this is interesting
18:09 is because the sun and the moon and the stars
18:12 in Revelation 12 are the very things that clothe the woman...
18:18 the righteous woman...
18:20 James: Let's just read that verse,
18:21 Yvonne, do you want to read that verse for us
18:23 it's in Revelation 12 and verse 1.
18:24 Yvonne: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
18:29 a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet,
18:32 and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... "
18:35 James: Yes, now, if we could just...
18:37 I mean... this is going to be...
18:38 we're going to be getting into our fourth cycle
18:40 when we get to Revelation 12
18:41 and it's going to be just amazing how we go back now
18:43 and we start the whole cycle all over again
18:45 but right here, God is... in a sense giving us our destiny
18:49 our destiny is to be this woman that's clothed with the sun,
18:52 standing on the moon and having a crown of 12 stars.
18:55 Yvonne: Hmmm...
18:56 James: so when we go back to Revelation chapter 8
18:58 and it says that this angel... the fourth angel sounds
19:02 and a third part of the sun
19:03 and the moon and the stars were smitten
19:05 this is talking... in symbolic sense
19:07 this is talking about God's people being smitten,
19:09 God's people are being afflicted,
19:10 God's people are being attacked,
19:12 God's people are being persecuted,
19:13 we know that not only from Revelation 12
19:16 but when we go to the Old Testament
19:17 and I have the verse right here
19:19 we read about the story of Joseph,
19:21 remember the story of Joseph?
19:22 And Joseph is a young man
19:26 whose brothers are very jealous of him
19:28 because God has given this coat of many colors
19:30 and he is put in a prominent position
19:33 God is kind of choosing him and he starts having these dreams
19:37 I'm not sure if you remember the dreams that he has,
19:39 the first dream he has is these stacks of barley...
19:44 of grain and they all bow down to him... to his...
19:49 and the second dream...
19:50 do you remember what the second dream was?
19:52 Yvonne: I just remember the first one.
19:53 James: Okay, let me read it for you.
19:55 Genesis chapter 37:9 and 10,
19:56 "And he dreamed yet another dream,
19:58 and told it to his brothers, and said,
20:00 Behold I have dreamed a dream more and, behold,
20:02 the sun and the moon
20:04 and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
20:08 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren:
20:10 and his father rebuked him, and he said unto him,
20:12 What is this dream about, this dream...
20:14 shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed
20:17 come to bow ourselves to thee on the earth?"
20:20 Yvonne: Hmmm...
20:21 James: So what do the sun, moon and stars represent here?
20:23 Jacob... the people of God...
20:26 Jason: Little did they know. Yvonne: Yeah... right...
20:28 Jason: Little did they know.
20:30 James: So here... this is really interesting
20:33 both in the Old and New Testament
20:35 and even in Daniel, Daniel talks about how
20:38 the stars represent fallen angels
20:42 but stars also represent those who replaced him...
20:44 God's people... who shine as stars forever and ever.
20:46 God's people, then,
20:48 are symbolized by the sun and the moon and the stars.
20:50 That represents God's church, His people,
20:53 in the Old Testament, Genesis 37:9 and 10,
20:56 in the New Testament, Revelation chapter 12 verse 1
20:58 so, in fact, Jesus says, Matthew 5:14,
21:03 "You are the light of the world with the light... "
21:06 and so, when it says that the fourth angel sounds,
21:09 "the third part of the sun, moon and stars are smitten...
21:12 so as the third part of them was darkened... "
21:15 now here it goes on to say, "and the day shone not
21:18 for a third part of it, and the night likewise. "
21:21 Jason: That's a lot of "thirds" like it's third, third, third...
21:23 they've got three thirds... so what is that?
21:26 James: So, remember what Ivor brought out and I loved it,
21:28 Ivor, can you share that again where in Revelation 12...
21:30 the third represents what?
21:32 Ivor: Right... the third represents
21:34 apostasy... it represents rebellion...
21:36 so we're looking at, again, this issue of rebellion
21:39 and apostasy with this power that is connected with Lucifer,
21:46 that is connected with Satan
21:48 that is actually a reflection of
21:50 exactly what Satan did in heaven
21:51 because in Revelation 12, it says,
21:53 "His tail cast a third of the stars to the ground. "
21:57 James: So, Satan and his angels, what they did...
22:00 they went through this transition
22:01 from faithfulness and loyalty and obedience to apostasy,
22:04 that's what's happening right here.
22:05 Ivor: And what's interesting,
22:07 let me add a couple of verses to this,
22:09 in Daniel chapter 8 and verse 10,
22:12 Daniel chapter 8 verse 10,
22:13 talks about this "little horn power"
22:15 and I want you to notice how the little horn power is described
22:18 in verse 10, it says,
22:20 "And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
22:22 and it cast down some of the host and of the stars
22:25 to the ground, and stamped upon them. "
22:27 Yvonne: Hmmm...
22:28 Ivor: Okay, this is the persecution,
22:30 this is the little horn which is the exact power
22:33 we're talking about here under the 4th trumpet,
22:36 the little horn persecuting the people of God.
22:39 But there's something else that's really interesting
22:43 about the sun, moon and stars,
22:44 is that these are all heavenly realities,
22:50 these are all heavenly realities,
22:53 and this power is seeking to obscure heavenly realities,
23:00 what do we know are the heavenly realities
23:02 during... you know, when Christ ascended?
23:05 He ascended into heaven, into the heavenly sanctuary
23:09 and when the lights in the heavens don't show,
23:13 it's... you know... you can't see...
23:15 this is what we're talking about here,
23:18 they are obscuring heavenly truths
23:21 and one of the main heavenly truths
23:23 that they began to obscure during the Dark Ages
23:26 was the Sanctuary of God in heaven.
23:29 "No, no, no, the Sanctuary is down here... "
23:31 James: It was counterfeit...
23:34 Ivor: Yeah, "you pray to God down here...
23:35 you want to go into a
23:37 two-compartment room divided by a curtain...
23:38 Heavenly Sanctuary...
23:39 no, you come into the Confessional Booth. "
23:42 Right, they began to replace... in other words,
23:45 instead of the men looking up for life,
23:47 they were directed to look down.
23:50 Jason: I was wondering, I never... I never understood
23:53 why people would confess their sins to a sinful human being.
23:58 There is only one way to God and it should be through Christ.
24:02 James: Because we were taught to and I say that with a "we"
24:06 because I was raised Catholic, so I was... that's all I knew...
24:09 that's what religion was to me and I can't even tell you
24:12 the experience that I had when I realized
24:15 that I could pray directly to God,
24:17 it was 1984... it was the very year that
24:20 the LA Times quoted John Paul the Second saying,
24:22 "We should not accept the Protestant idea
24:24 that we can pray directly to God and have our sins forgiven,
24:27 we should pray more earnestly or more frequently to our priest,"
24:29 in that same year, 1984, when he said that,
24:32 I became a Christian and then became a Seventh-day Adventist.
24:36 I became a Christian before I became an Adventist,
24:39 when I say, "became a Christian"
24:40 I was raised Catholic but when I say, "became a Christian"
24:43 I became a born-again Christian,
24:44 I knew the Lord's Prayer and the "Hail Mary"
24:47 but I knew nothing about Christ in my earlier years,
24:50 I knew about the Priest and confession to the Priest
24:52 which... the verses you brought out, Ivor,
24:55 it's all there... in Daniel 8...
24:57 let's read those verses,
24:59 Yvonne, would you read those verses,
25:00 verses 11 and 12, in fact, all the way to 14.
25:05 In Daniel 8 verses 11, 12, 13 and 14
25:08 and I think if we read these verses,
25:11 we're going... because we've already explained,
25:13 we've already explained... we just explained these verses,
25:15 now we're just going to read them
25:16 and they're going to confirm what we just explained
25:18 about the Sanctuary being attacked
25:20 and brought down to the earth.
25:21 Yvonne: Daniel 8:11, right, through 13?
25:23 James: Through 14. Yvonne: Through 14.
25:25 "Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
25:29 and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
25:32 and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
25:35 And an host was given him
25:37 against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
25:40 and it cast down the truth to the ground;
25:42 and it practiced, and prospered.
25:44 Then I heard one saint speaking,
25:46 and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
25:50 How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice,
25:53 and the transgression of desolation,
25:55 to give both the sanctuary
25:57 and the host to be trodden under foot?
25:59 And he said unto me,
26:01 Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
26:03 then shall the sanctuary be cleaned. "
26:05 James: Wooo... Yvonne: Wow!
26:07 James: So this is another description
26:10 of these Dark Ages and we're right now
26:13 we're in Revelation chapter 8, we're seeing the development...
26:17 today, we're looking past and saying this happened
26:19 but now we're looking at the development of these verses
26:22 that ended with the Sanctuary being made right or justified
26:25 or cleansed in 1844... at the end of the 2,300-day Prophecy
26:29 that's when a message went forth that eventually even impacted me
26:32 a young, Catholic Altar Boy in 1984
26:35 it caused me to realize "heavenly luminaries"
26:38 the day and the night...
26:40 the shining of the heavenly luminaries...
26:42 getting into heaven and not being focused on this earth
26:45 and on human beings. Yvonne: Hmmm...
26:47 Ivor: Let me add in here... just saying is that,
26:48 it says a host was given him... what are we talking about?
26:52 A third of the sun the moon and the stars... the hosts...
26:55 because of his persecution... like people are like...
26:59 "Okay, we got to follow him because... "
27:00 you see what I'm saying?
27:02 So, I'm only talking about that one-third representing apostasy,
27:05 representing rebellion and this is what's going on,
27:07 the people of God are being attacked
27:09 and because of the persecution, many of them are like,
27:12 "Okay, we don't want to be burnt at the stake"
27:14 you see what I'm saying and there's this...
27:16 "the host has been given to him against the daily sacrifice. "
27:21 James: You know time is done already
27:23 and I love... what I love about this program is
27:25 you don't have to worry about that
27:27 because we don't have any...
27:28 we don't have to be through this through that
27:30 and the other thing in a certain time,
27:31 we just pick up where we left off... in our next program,
27:33 but we need to let people know how they can get ahold of us
27:35 and get information about this.
27:37 Jason: Oh absolutely, they should send their e-mail to
27:39 sss@3abn. org
27:42 that's sss as in Salvation in Symbols and Signs
27:45 and I love that we're not rushing through it either
27:48 but I'm running out of clothes.
27:49 James: It's all good... it's all good...
27:53 we can fix that down in Walmart.
27:56 All: Laughing...