Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000045A
00:29 All right, Revelation 11... we've done the introduction,
00:33 we've left off with that cliffhanger
00:35 we're right there, ready to jump in to this...
00:38 this verse that describes these two olive trees,
00:41 these two candlesticks, these two witnesses
00:44 and all that they're doing in the earth
00:46 and it is very symbolic, the symbols here have meaning
00:51 that's going to be brought out through the Bible,
00:54 different Bible verses are going to tell us
00:55 what the meaning of this is, so it's going to be really easy
00:58 once we get this symbolism identified with the Bible
01:01 and then we're going to see how it applies in history.
01:03 That's how we work, that's our modus operandi...
01:10 so, that's where we need to be going.
01:12 Before we go to the Bible though, Jason,
01:14 can you give a word of prayer for us?
01:15 Jason: Sure, "Dear Heavenly Father,
01:17 we thank you for blessing us with the opportunity
01:20 to study your Word, we wouldn't dare study it
01:22 without asking for the Holy Spirit
01:24 to be in our midst and to lead us into all truth,
01:27 please also fill our Viewers' and Listeners' homes as well
01:31 with the presence of your Holy Spirit
01:34 lead them into all truth as well,
01:35 in Jesus' name we pray, amen. " All: "Amen. "
01:38 All right, what's with this verse,
01:41 "These are the two olive trees,
01:43 and the two candlesticks
01:45 standing before the God of all the earth. "
01:47 Olive trees... candlesticks...
01:50 candlesticks sounds like sanctuary language,
01:52 olive trees... what is this?
01:55 Ivor: So we're in verse 4, let's turn back to verse 3,
01:59 just for a moment
02:01 and I think it would be good for us to talk about
02:04 what's out there... concerning these two witnesses.
02:08 So when you read verse 3,
02:10 "I will give power unto my two witnesses,
02:11 and they shall prophesy
02:13 a thousand two hundred and threescore days,
02:16 clothed in sackcloth. "
02:17 I think that's an important verse we need to unpack,
02:20 there are a lot of people... a lot of Christians
02:22 that believe that at the end of time
02:25 there are going to be... these two special witnesses
02:28 that are going to have power to...
02:31 James: Bring plagues on the earth...
02:33 Ivor: Yeah, bring plagues on the earth...
02:34 and this will happen at the end of a so-called seven-year period
02:39 these three and a half years
02:41 they'll be turning water to blood,
02:43 they'll be calling fire down from heaven...
02:45 some people think because we're going to see
02:47 that Elijah called fire down from heaven,
02:50 Moses turned water to blood
02:52 and they think that there will be Moses and Elijah
02:54 that return... Yvonne: Yeah, yeah.
02:56 Ivor: So, there are various views
02:58 on who these two witnesses actually are,
03:01 in terms of... at the end of time...
03:04 this is why, I said in the earlier program
03:07 that understanding time
03:11 in the book of Revelation is crucial.
03:12 Yvonne: Hmmm... James: Hmmm... hmmm...
03:14 Ivor: When we see that this is the time period...
03:15 the same time period as the Dark Ages,
03:17 that a day in Bible prophecy equals a year,
03:21 that there really is only one time prophecy
03:24 in the entire book of Daniel and Revelation
03:27 and it's the 2,300-Day prophecy,
03:30 a day equals a year... all the other time prophecies
03:33 are sub-sections of these prophecies,
03:35 which means that by nature,
03:37 because we know the 2,300 days are actually 2,300 years
03:41 by nature... these other prophecies will equal years.
03:47 This is 1,260 years... nobody lives for 1,260 years
03:52 therefore, we cannot... that automatically rules out
03:58 that these are two individuals, right?
04:00 Yvonne: Well, unless it's Elijah who was translated
04:05 and Moses who was raised from the dead
04:08 I mean, because I was going to ask about that.
04:11 James: That's a good question. Yvonne: So...
04:14 James: Because they appeared to Jesus once.
04:16 Ivor: Right.
04:17 Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, at the Mount of transfiguration, so...
04:21 James: But I think Ivor's point is still good,
04:24 Ivor's point is still good, let's just say,
04:25 this was Moses and Elijah,
04:27 are they coming back for a 1,260 years?
04:30 Ivor: Exactly... so... they are on the earth
04:34 okay, you're going to see that these... that these...
04:37 James: Yvonne still has a question... so what is it?
04:40 Yvonne: They would be coming back
04:42 at the end of the 1,260-year period, right?
04:46 Not, for a thousand and...
04:48 James: "I will give power unto my two witnesses,
04:50 and they shall prophesy a
04:51 thousand two hundred and threescore days... "
04:53 Yvonne: Oh, so they would actually... okay... prophesy...
04:56 James: The whole time... but you know what?
04:59 I just want to make a point here
05:01 so, Yvonne, that was a really good question
05:05 and then what do we do?
05:06 We went back to the Bible
05:07 to get clarification for that question
05:10 and the Bible kind of says, "Wait a minute...
05:11 in order for us to identify
05:13 these symbols and who these guys are,
05:14 or who these witnesses are,
05:15 they have to meet every criteria,
05:17 they have to meet all of the...
05:19 the characteristics that are identified here,
05:21 they could meet... they could actually qualify
05:24 because Moses... yeah and Elijah
05:26 both brought down fire from heaven,
05:28 they both turned water into... that's... that's a qualification
05:30 but they're missing another qualification
05:32 and that is this 1,260-year period,
05:34 they got to prophesy for the whole time...
05:36 ah! that excludes them, well then, who is it?
05:38 And so, when we study Bible prophecy,
05:40 that's what we have to do, we want to look for Bible verses
05:45 and stories and illustrations that would fit
05:47 but if they don't meet all the characteristics,
05:49 we have to keep looking... examine it and keep looking.
05:51 Yvonne: So, what would you say to people who would
05:53 say, oh you have a point?
05:55 Ivor: Let's go to verse 7
05:57 and I'm going to show you something right here.
05:58 Yvonne: Okay, okay.
05:59 Ivor: To make it definitive, right.
06:01 Yvonne: Okay... Ivor: Okay, verse 7...
06:02 "When they shall have finished their testimony... "
06:03 that means... towards the 1,260 years,
06:06 "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit
06:09 shall make war against them, and shall overcome them... "
06:11 and... what? All: "Kill them. "
06:13 Yvonne: Hmmm... James: Hmmm...
06:16 Ivor: Yeah, they're immortal, right? They already have...
06:19 James: Another characteristic they can't meet.
06:20 Ivor: Right. Yvonne: Right.
06:22 Ivor: So, now we know that...
06:23 okay, we know it can't be two living individuals,
06:26 you know, people that have not died...
06:28 James: Especially Moses and Elijah.
06:29 Ivor: Right, we know it can't be Moses and Elijah... why?
06:31 because, even if it were Moses and Elijah,
06:33 they can't die... you see what I'm saying?
06:35 Yvonne: Right, right...
06:37 Ivor: So, we eliminated the possibility of this being
06:39 any normal, you know,
06:41 any prophet that is born among men,
06:45 a human being that has not gone to heaven,
06:48 we've eliminated the fact that it can't be Moses and Elijah
06:50 who ascended... because they die.
06:51 All: Hmmm... hmmm...
06:53 Ivor: So, one of the things we were talking about
06:55 in the previous program is how the temple...
06:59 I'm sorry, the Holy City... is spiritual...
07:02 it's not the literal Holy City, it's spiritual Jerusalem, right?
07:06 It's the church... okay,
07:08 so, again, understanding the book of Revelation,
07:11 is highly symbolic, we have two options,
07:15 either these two witnesses are literal people,
07:19 or it is something symbolic and once we exclude
07:22 any normal person because normal people don't live...
07:26 any human being doesn't live 1,260 years...
07:30 once we exclude Moses and Elijah because they don't die...
07:33 then we are... what are we left with? We've got to turn to
07:37 "Well, this must be symbolic" makes sense?
07:39 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... Ivor: So...
07:40 Jason: I have a question... Ivor: Yeah.
07:42 Jason: Okay, so going back to verse 4,
07:43 these are "the two olive trees and the two candlesticks
07:46 standing before the God of the earth. "
07:48 Are these two of the seven churches?
07:49 Is that what the... candlesticks?
07:51 Ivor: Let's come to that, let's come to that,
07:53 I want to show you something else... back in verse 3,
07:56 we're going to answer this question,
07:58 in verse 3, it says,
08:00 "they prophesy... and they're clothed in sackcloth"
08:05 James: "Clothed in sackcloth," yeah.
08:06 Ivor: Clothed in sackcloth, so,
08:08 what does sackcloth represent in the Bible?
08:10 Yvonne: Mourning...
08:11 Ivor: It represents mourning, so you'll remember...
08:14 James: Esther 3:13... talks about that.
08:17 Ivor: Yeah... when Jacob... when they told Jacob,
08:21 "Hey, Joseph died... " the Bible says,
08:23 "He put sackcloth on himself and he mourned. "
08:26 So, sackcloth... you look over and over in the Bible
08:29 it is a symbol of mourning, of like, just...
08:33 a dark experience...
08:36 and so, whatever these two witnesses are,
08:39 they are going... during this 1,260 years,
08:42 it is a period of mourning, it is...
08:45 they're doing their work under great distress, if you will.
08:50 James: Yeah, let me get a couple of verses on this,
08:52 real quick... just so our Viewers have these,
08:54 this is Esther 3:13, it says,
08:56 "And the king's letters were sent by courier
08:58 into all the king's provinces, to destroy and to kill,
09:00 and to annihilate all the Jews. "
09:02 We're not going to look at the whole story here
09:03 but basically, this is the time when the Jews are basically
09:07 slated for death, they're just going to be killed,
09:09 "And both young and old, little children and women,
09:12 in one day, on the thirteenth day of the twelfth month,
09:14 which is the month of Adar,
09:16 and to plunder their possessions and to every province
09:18 where the king's command and decree arrived,
09:20 there was great mourning among the Jews
09:22 with fasting, weeping, wailing,
09:24 and many lay in sackcloth and ashes. "
09:26 So, sackcloth and ashes indicate mourning, weeping, wailing
09:31 because there were great calamities taking place
09:33 persecution is taking place according to Esther 3:13
09:35 and chapter 4 and verse 3.
09:37 Ivor: Right, so these then, this would again point us to...
09:43 parallels perfectly with
09:45 what's going on during the Dark Ages, okay,
09:48 so, we're looking for these two witnesses,
09:50 they're not humans...
09:52 we're looking for them doing their work under great distress
09:56 it's a time of persecution and so what are our options?
10:02 I mean, like, these are His Two Witnesses,
10:06 right, so let me ask you a question,
10:08 what do witnesses do?
10:11 James: Testify...
10:13 Ivor: They testify... you call a witness to the stand,
10:17 what's the witness going to do? Testify, okay,
10:20 so whose witnesses are these? James and Yvonne: God's...
10:22 Ivor: These are God's witnesses, Christ's witnesses,
10:24 so, we would ask the question then,
10:26 we can ask Jesus Himself, maybe... like,
10:28 "Hey, Jesus, who... who are your witnesses?
10:32 Who testifies of you?"
10:34 Ivor: So, let's see that Jesus actually gives us an answer.
10:37 Yvonne: Oh... I know where you're going but I love it.
10:40 Ivor: Chapter 5 and verse 39, let's see what it says there.
10:44 John chapter 5...
10:45 James: We don't need to turn there do we, Yvonne?
10:49 we've got that verse right... right... right...
10:51 "Search the scriptures... "
10:53 Ivor: "Search the scriptures. " James: "Search the Scriptures. "
10:55 Yvonne: "for in them... " Ivor: "Them... " what?
10:56 "Ye have eternal life: and these are they which... " do what?
10:59 "testify of me. "
11:01 So, Scriptures... Old Testament... New Testament,
11:06 the job of both of these Testaments...
11:10 is to testify of Jesus Christ. Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
11:12 James: And it's important because...
11:14 we know the New Testament... we kind of accept that...
11:16 "oh yeah... New Testament"
11:17 but when Jesus says, "Search the scriptures... "
11:19 in John 5:39... He's talking about the Old Testament.
11:21 There is no New Testament then...
11:23 He's talking about the Old Testament
11:24 so let's put both together,
11:26 because New Testament is
11:27 what? 75 percent or 70 percent of it is... the Old Testament
11:30 so, these two witnesses testify of Jesus.
11:33 I love that, that's good stuff, yeah.
11:36 Ivor: So Christ... is in all the Scriptures,
11:39 not just the New Testament Scriptures
11:42 and... now I think this is super important to understand
11:45 because, guess what?
11:46 Most... as we've been going through the book of Revelation,
11:50 where we've been going to get almost all of our answers
11:54 as to understanding what it's talking about?
11:56 We've been going back to the Old Testament.
11:57 Ivor: And the reason why so many people have a difficult time
12:01 understanding the book of Revelation,
12:03 is because we have so many, "New Testament Christians"
12:06 "I'm a New Testament... yeah the Old Testament, hey,
12:10 but the New Testament... " right?
12:11 Yvonne: Right, ah ha...
12:13 Ivor: And the book of Revelation
12:14 is based so heavily upon the Old Testament
12:19 and those stories of the Old Testament...
12:21 James: Because it's based on Scripture...
12:23 Ivor: Yeah...
12:24 James: When it was written, that was Scripture...
12:26 Ivor: Absolutely.
12:27 James: Here's another thing that I think is really significant
12:29 on these two witnesses,
12:30 they have power to call plagues down on this earth, okay,
12:36 when Elijah said, "It's not going to rain... "
12:39 he said, "By the word of the Lord"
12:40 it wasn't his word...
12:42 Ivor: Let's go there real quick. James: okay.
12:44 Ivor: 1st Kings 18... James: You got it...
12:46 Ivor: And... I was just looking at that verse,
12:49 something just jumped out at me...
12:50 James: Here we go... here we go.
12:52 Ivor: You know, it just... just really...
12:54 1st Kings 18 and verse 1.
13:01 Yvonne: "And it came to pass after many days,
13:06 that the word of the Lord came to Elijah
13:08 in the third year, saying... Go... "
13:10 Ivor: Stop right there... do you see that just now?
13:13 James: Hmmm... hmmm... "the third year. "
13:14 Ivor: Do you see that? No, no, no, not "third year. "
13:17 Ivor: "the word of the Lord came to Elijah and said... "
13:21 "the word of the Lord... came to Elijah... "
13:27 so, imagine, the word of the Lord,
13:30 is His witness... comes to Elijah
13:33 and says... it doesn't say, "The Lord, the Lord came... "
13:36 it says, "the word of the Lord came to Elijah saying... "
13:40 so when Elijah... when it goes on to say in the third year,
13:43 "saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab;
13:46 and I will send rain upon the earth. "
13:48 Okay, he's talking about now... they had just gone through
13:52 these three years of famine,
13:55 no rain... and then... the Word of the Lord,
13:57 now, we go back to the book of Revelation,
13:59 what are the two witnesses? They are the Word of the Lord,
14:02 right, the Old Testament... and New Testament,
14:04 here you have... it's almost like...
14:06 it's God... but the way that it puts it
14:09 "the word of the Lord comes to Elijah"
14:12 as a witness and says,
14:14 "Okay, Elijah, this is what I want you to do"
14:16 so Elijah caused it not to rain by what?
14:21 Yvonne: "The Word of the Lord. "
14:23 Ivor: So when the book of Revelation says,
14:25 "by these... they have power to stop it from raining"
14:28 Yvonne: Hmmm...
14:29 Ivor: "they have power to turn water to blood"
14:31 and the other story is Moses...
14:33 James: I got it, chapter 4, You want me to read the verses?
14:37 "Moses says unto the Lord... "
14:39 so God calls Moses to be His spokesman...
14:42 to deliver His people out of Egypt in Exodus chapter 4
14:45 and I'm just picking up... just a couple of verses here,
14:49 in Exodus chapter 4 verse 11... 10 and 11...
14:53 "And Moses said until the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent,
14:56 neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken
15:01 unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of tongue. "
15:04 And I love this because basically,
15:06 what Moses is saying, "I can't do this... "
15:08 and so God responds to him, and this is what God says,
15:11 "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth?
15:14 or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing,
15:17 or the blind? have not I the Lord?
15:19 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth,
15:24 and teach thee what thou shalt say. "
15:26 It's my word... when we get to Revelation 11, we say,
15:30 "Oh, this must be Moses and Elijah"
15:31 we've just bypassed the whole point of the entire Bible
15:35 it's never Moses or Elijah,
15:37 in fact, when Moses got a little bit impatient with the people
15:41 and he said, "Must we fetch water from this rock?"
15:44 That's when his ticket to the Promise Land was canceled.
15:48 "It's done, because you've just taken the glory to yourself,
15:52 it's my word... " it's always God's word...
15:55 so the reason I love Revelation 11 here is because
15:58 it's not just about identifying
16:00 who these witnesses are, but it's about clarifying...
16:03 it's about clarifying the Old Testament... testimonies
16:06 it's about clarifying the fact
16:08 that human beings are simply channels
16:09 through which God works,
16:11 it's about giving the glory back to God
16:12 and that all comes back to measurement,
16:14 because when we bypass the human,
16:17 then as we measure God, we see human imperfections
16:20 and we bypass them and we keep our focus on Jesus
16:23 and we get the right measurement.
16:24 Yvonne: That's good.
16:26 Ivor: Well, verse 4 brings us to...
16:28 Jason... you have a question about the olive tree
16:31 right, the olive trees and the candlesticks...
16:34 so, let's see, I mean, we're going to...
16:37 the way we progress now is,
16:38 we say, "Okay, it looks like so far
16:40 the Word of God is fitting these characteristics,
16:44 do they also... do they fit as we move on
16:47 right... in the verses, so, the first thing in verse 4 is
16:50 it says, "these are the two olive trees"
16:53 so the two olive trees, like, "What's that?"
16:56 You think of any place in the Bible
16:57 that talks about olive trees? Maybe two of them.
17:00 "Ah... wait a minute, what's the name of that book again?"
17:03 Zechariah... oooh... yeah, Zechariah chapter 3
17:07 so let's go there... or, I think it's Zechariah chapter 4...
17:10 Ivor: Zechariah chapter 4 and let's see...
17:15 let's look at...
17:17 James: Verse 1 and 2 are good I think...
17:19 Ivor: Yeah, go ahead.
17:21 James: Just to get the context.
17:22 "And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me,
17:27 as a man that is wakened out of his sleep... "
17:28 and verse 2... "He said unto me,
17:30 what seest thou? And I said, I have looked,
17:32 and behold a candlestick all of gold,
17:34 with a bowl upon the top of it,
17:36 and his seven lamps thereon,
17:38 and seven pipes to the seven lamps,
17:40 which are upon the top thereof...
17:43 And two olive trees by it,
17:45 one upon the right side of the bowl,
17:47 and the other upon the left side thereof.
17:49 So I answered and I spake to the angel that talked with me,
17:52 saying, What are these?"
17:53 Jason, "What are these, my lord?
17:55 What are these, what are these two lampstands,
17:59 what's this lampstand... what are these two olive trees?"
18:02 "Then the angel that talked with me
18:03 answered and said unto me,
18:05 Don't you know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.
18:09 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying,
18:11 This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying,
18:16 Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit,
18:19 saith the LORD of hosts. "
18:21 Ivor: So, here's the way it happened...
18:24 first of all... what is he identifying here?
18:26 He says, he sees this vision... there's that candlestick...
18:31 seven-branched candlestick, or seven bowls,
18:34 and on either side of it there are two olive trees
18:37 and the olive trees are emptying oil
18:39 into the seven-branched candlestick, right,
18:43 the lampstand... now remember that Jesus, Himself, said
18:47 in the book of Matthew, I believe it is, chapter 5,
18:50 "You are the light of the world,
18:52 A city set on a hill cannot be hid.
18:54 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel. "
18:58 A city... a city set on a hill and that's interesting because
19:02 I'm thinking back to Revelation chapter 11,
19:04 the Holy City being persecuted,
19:05 that represents the people of God
19:07 right, so the candlestick... we've already seen...
19:10 "Oh yeah, that represents the people of God,
19:11 it represents the Holy City" okay,
19:15 but what's keeping the light burning?
19:17 It's the Holy Spirit, so, okay, what represents...
19:21 the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit,
19:23 that still doesn't really answer our question though,
19:25 right, the oil is the Holy Spirit, okay,
19:27 so, thus, in the vision the angel says,
19:30 oh God says, "Not by might... "
19:32 in other words, you don't... the fire doesn't burn by might
19:36 nor by power but by my Spirit...
19:40 okay, so, the oil represents the Spirit,
19:43 but the trees...
19:45 we still don't know what that's talking about right?
19:46 So let's go a little bit further down
19:48 and let's see here, verse...
19:55 verse 12... verse 11, yes, verse 11.
20:00 Jason: In Zechariah 4?
20:01 Ivor: Yeah, 11... let's go ahead and read till verse 14.
20:04 Jason: Okay, "Then answered I, and said unto him,
20:06 What are these two olive trees
20:08 upon the right side of the candlestick
20:09 and upon the left side thereof?
20:11 And I answered again, and said unto him,
20:13 What be these two olive branches
20:15 which through the two golden pipes
20:17 empty the golden oil out of themselves?
20:19 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be?
20:23 And I said, No, my lord.
20:26 Then said he,
20:29 These are the two anointed ones,
20:31 that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. "
20:33 James: Hmmm...
20:34 Ivor: Okay, so here we have... it gets right to Revelation,
20:38 these are the two olive trees, okay,
20:41 so these olive trees are what allows the oil
20:47 to get to His people,
20:49 James: to the lights... Ivor: to the lights... exactly.
20:52 So, in essence, the candlestick is supported
20:58 by oil and by these two trees,
21:01 two things... oil and the trees,
21:05 now, we have seen that... we're looking at,
21:08 "Does the word fit this, does the word fit this?"
21:10 Jesus said, "Search the Scriptures;
21:12 for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
21:14 these are they which testify of me. "
21:15 Okay, the candlestick is supported by these two witnesses
21:23 does the Word of God... in fact,
21:26 how do we even know about the Holy Spirit?
21:28 James: By the word of God.
21:29 Ivor: By the word of God, right,
21:31 and very interesting in the book of John it says,
21:34 "Sanctify them through thy truth,
21:36 thy word is... " what? "Truth. "
21:39 Jesus says, "They that worship me,
21:42 must worship me in... " what?
21:44 "Spirit and in truth"
21:47 it is the Bible that opens up our understanding
21:50 of who the Holy Spirit is, in other words,
21:53 what kept the church alive during the Dark Ages?
21:58 The Bible... two witnesses.
22:01 James: Verification... Ivor: Go...
22:03 James: "He that hath an ear,
22:05 let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. "
22:08 Ivor: Yes. James: "He that has an ear,
22:10 let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. "
22:12 That is written to the seven churches
22:14 which are the seven candlesticks.
22:15 Jason: Hmmm... hmmm...
22:17 James: So the Spirit is speaking to the churches
22:19 through the Word. Ivor: That's right.
22:21 James: So Revelation chapters 2 and 3
22:22 just verify the whole thing,
22:23 it gives the pictures, verifies...
22:25 Jason: So, the two candlesticks
22:27 are two of the churches, right, or no?
22:29 Ivor: No, no, there's a seven... okay,
22:32 Jason: It seems like, I mean, when you go back to
22:36 where was that found? That was...
22:38 James: Revelation chapter 1,
22:39 yeah, "seven candlesticks are the seven churches. "
22:42 Jason: Yes, so that's why I would think that...
22:45 Ivor: Do this...
22:46 go to Psalm 119:105...
22:48 Jason: 119:105...
22:53 "Thy word is a... " what? "lamp unto my feet,
23:00 and a light unto my path. "
23:01 Okay, when we're looking at these two candlesticks
23:04 in their context, okay,
23:06 they... they are described
23:09 differently than the seven churches are described,
23:12 okay, the seven candlesticks, you look...
23:14 you go into each church... it does this...
23:17 it's a certain period of time,
23:19 these two candlesticks are separate from the seven
23:23 because they have power to do things that
23:25 the seven churches...
23:27 it doesn't say anything about the seven churches,
23:29 you see what I'm saying, so these are two separate...
23:32 it's kind of like this... the lion...
23:35 what is it a symbol of in the Bible?
23:38 James: Christ.
23:39 Ivor: Symbol of Christ. James: But also...
23:41 Ivor: But also, you go to Daniel chapter 7,
23:43 and you have a lion right, in this vision of four beasts,
23:47 the lion in Daniel chapter 7
23:49 does not represent Jesus Christ,
23:50 it represents Babylon.
23:52 James: Neither in Peter where it's,
23:53 "a devouring lion seeking whom he may devour. "
23:55 James: The context is important, that's what he's saying.
23:57 Ivor: Exactly... you want to look at the context and say,
24:00 "Well, just because it's a candlestick doesn't mean
24:02 it's the same candlestick," yeah.
24:04 James: It's really important, we did that with the incense too
24:06 you remember that? Ivor: Exactly.
24:08 James: The incense in Revelation 4, Acts 5...
24:10 represents the prayers of the saints
24:11 but in Revelation 8, it actually represents
24:13 the merits of Christ and the Righteousness of Christ,
24:15 so you get a symbol from the Bible
24:17 but it also has to fit the context of where it applies.
24:19 Ivor: Right.
24:21 James: So, what verifies this symbol,
24:23 I think is so beautiful is that the seven candlesticks
24:26 do represent our witness, the witness of the church
24:28 and the Spirit is what keeps that witness alive,
24:31 the Spirit... listen to what the Spirit says,
24:33 "Well, how does the Spirit say that to the seven churches?"
24:36 "Do the work... do the work... do the work... "
24:37 because every one of those churches is given these words,
24:39 "I know your works... I know this,
24:41 I know that... you need to do this,
24:43 you need to do that" that's the Spirit speaking
24:44 but when you get to Revelation 11,
24:46 you have this... this consummate picture...
24:50 this zenith of reality that the word that is being spoken
24:55 actually comes from the Old and the New Testament,
24:57 that's the source... that's the ultimate source
24:58 of the witness of all the churches.
25:00 Ivor: Let me share something else and I know
25:02 I'm running out of time but we're going to come back,
25:04 we're going to complete these two witnesses,
25:06 but I'm going to show you something...
25:07 go to Revelation 11 and look at verse 11 and 12.
25:12 It says, "After three days and a half
25:14 the spirit of life from God entered into them,
25:18 and they stood upon their feet;
25:19 and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
25:22 And they heard a great voice from heaven
25:24 saying unto them, Come up hither,
25:25 And they ascended up to heaven in a... " what?
25:27 All: "Cloud... "
25:28 Ivor: "cloud and their enemies beheld them. "
25:30 Okay, so, we're going to point out that this, you know,
25:33 was occurring at the end of the 1,260 years,
25:37 and these two witnesses ascend up into a cloud
25:40 right, do you remember what we covered
25:44 in Revelation chapter 10?
25:46 We saw this angel and... James: Clothed with a cloud.
25:50 Ivor: Yeah... what is he clothed with?
25:51 James: Clothed with a cloud... Ivor: A cloud...
25:53 What does he have in his hand?
25:54 Yvonne: A book. James: A little book... hmmm...
25:55 Ivor: A book, okay, what is he doing?
25:57 He's giving his church, right,
25:59 the understanding of the Word of God.
26:02 So, when you actually look at it,
26:04 right after the Dark Ages, the book ascends
26:07 in the cloud... and now you have the angel
26:11 in Revelation chapter 10, with a cloud..
26:14 "Here's the book... " so as we...
26:18 as we're looking at this, we're saying,
26:20 "You know what, the Bible appears to be fitting so far,
26:23 most of these characteristics,
26:25 we haven't finished but as we go through, we will see... "
26:28 James: Wait till we get to the historical part
26:29 where we have to see if the Bible fits
26:31 the historical application...
26:33 Ivor: What actually happened.
26:34 James: Yeah, and that's really going to nail it for us,
26:36 because I'll say... I'll say this as we go through this,
26:39 even as we meet all these characteristics
26:41 and even as we look at history,
26:43 we're still going to have some wiggle room,
26:44 there has to be room for faith...
26:46 you can't just nail this down and say,
26:49 "Okay, good, now it's solid, proof... "
26:51 proof, you know, I want to say,
26:53 "waterproof, watertight... there's no wiggle room,"
26:57 there has to be some wiggle room.
26:58 God has to leave some wiggle room, why?
27:00 Because we have to exercise faith...
27:01 ultimately, we have to exercise faith...
27:03 but I love the journey you've taken us on, Ivor,
27:06 because I really think this has laid it out very powerfully,
27:10 very Biblically and very simply
27:11 and setting us up, the thing I like about this is
27:13 we start out with this basic summary,
27:16 then we get into the symbols,
27:17 identify them Biblically and then we get into more symbols,
27:19 identify them... and pretty soon it's just...
27:21 there's just this insurmountable mountain of faith
27:25 based on the Word of God... evidence...
27:26 that just nails it...
27:28 and then we just have to exercise
27:30 just a little bit of faith and boom! we're there, I love that,
27:32 all right, so we're going to leave off right here,
27:37 if folks want to get ahold of us...
27:39 they have questions or want to share those questions
27:41 how would they get ahold of us?
27:43 Jason: They could just send it to: sss@3abn. org
27:46 James: sss@3abn. org so we'll leave off right here,
27:50 we'll pick up... right here where we left off
27:52 in our next program
27:54 as we continue to study Revelation chapter 11.
27:56 Yvonne: Great...