Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000045A
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00:29 All right, Revelation 11... we've done the introduction,
00:33 we've left off with that cliffhanger 00:35 we're right there, ready to jump in to this... 00:38 this verse that describes these two olive trees, 00:41 these two candlesticks, these two witnesses 00:44 and all that they're doing in the earth 00:46 and it is very symbolic, the symbols here have meaning 00:51 that's going to be brought out through the Bible, 00:54 different Bible verses are going to tell us 00:55 what the meaning of this is, so it's going to be really easy 00:58 once we get this symbolism identified with the Bible 01:01 and then we're going to see how it applies in history. 01:03 That's how we work, that's our modus operandi... 01:10 so, that's where we need to be going. 01:12 Before we go to the Bible though, Jason, 01:14 can you give a word of prayer for us? 01:15 Jason: Sure, "Dear Heavenly Father, 01:17 we thank you for blessing us with the opportunity 01:20 to study your Word, we wouldn't dare study it 01:22 without asking for the Holy Spirit 01:24 to be in our midst and to lead us into all truth, 01:27 please also fill our Viewers' and Listeners' homes as well 01:31 with the presence of your Holy Spirit 01:34 lead them into all truth as well, 01:35 in Jesus' name we pray, amen. " All: "Amen. " 01:38 All right, what's with this verse, 01:41 "These are the two olive trees, 01:43 and the two candlesticks 01:45 standing before the God of all the earth. " 01:47 Olive trees... candlesticks... 01:50 candlesticks sounds like sanctuary language, 01:52 olive trees... what is this? 01:55 Ivor: So we're in verse 4, let's turn back to verse 3, 01:59 just for a moment 02:01 and I think it would be good for us to talk about 02:04 what's out there... concerning these two witnesses. 02:08 So when you read verse 3, 02:10 "I will give power unto my two witnesses, 02:11 and they shall prophesy 02:13 a thousand two hundred and threescore days, 02:16 clothed in sackcloth. " 02:17 I think that's an important verse we need to unpack, 02:20 there are a lot of people... a lot of Christians 02:22 that believe that at the end of time 02:25 there are going to be... these two special witnesses 02:28 that are going to have power to... 02:31 James: Bring plagues on the earth... 02:33 Ivor: Yeah, bring plagues on the earth... 02:34 and this will happen at the end of a so-called seven-year period 02:39 these three and a half years 02:41 they'll be turning water to blood, 02:43 they'll be calling fire down from heaven... 02:45 some people think because we're going to see 02:47 that Elijah called fire down from heaven, 02:50 Moses turned water to blood 02:52 and they think that there will be Moses and Elijah 02:54 that return... Yvonne: Yeah, yeah. 02:56 Ivor: So, there are various views 02:58 on who these two witnesses actually are, 03:01 in terms of... at the end of time... 03:04 this is why, I said in the earlier program 03:07 that understanding time 03:11 in the book of Revelation is crucial. 03:12 Yvonne: Hmmm... James: Hmmm... hmmm... 03:14 Ivor: When we see that this is the time period... 03:15 the same time period as the Dark Ages, 03:17 that a day in Bible prophecy equals a year, 03:21 that there really is only one time prophecy 03:24 in the entire book of Daniel and Revelation 03:27 and it's the 2,300-Day prophecy, 03:30 a day equals a year... all the other time prophecies 03:33 are sub-sections of these prophecies, 03:35 which means that by nature, 03:37 because we know the 2,300 days are actually 2,300 years 03:41 by nature... these other prophecies will equal years. 03:47 This is 1,260 years... nobody lives for 1,260 years 03:52 therefore, we cannot... that automatically rules out 03:58 that these are two individuals, right? 04:00 Yvonne: Well, unless it's Elijah who was translated 04:05 and Moses who was raised from the dead 04:08 I mean, because I was going to ask about that. 04:11 James: That's a good question. Yvonne: So... 04:14 James: Because they appeared to Jesus once. 04:16 Ivor: Right. 04:17 Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, at the Mount of transfiguration, so... 04:21 James: But I think Ivor's point is still good, 04:24 Ivor's point is still good, let's just say, 04:25 this was Moses and Elijah, 04:27 are they coming back for a 1,260 years? 04:30 Ivor: Exactly... so... they are on the earth 04:34 okay, you're going to see that these... that these... 04:37 James: Yvonne still has a question... so what is it? 04:40 Yvonne: They would be coming back 04:42 at the end of the 1,260-year period, right? 04:46 Not, for a thousand and... 04:48 James: "I will give power unto my two witnesses, 04:50 and they shall prophesy a 04:51 thousand two hundred and threescore days... " 04:53 Yvonne: Oh, so they would actually... okay... prophesy... 04:56 James: The whole time... but you know what? 04:59 I just want to make a point here 05:01 so, Yvonne, that was a really good question 05:05 and then what do we do? 05:06 We went back to the Bible 05:07 to get clarification for that question 05:10 and the Bible kind of says, "Wait a minute... 05:11 in order for us to identify 05:13 these symbols and who these guys are, 05:14 or who these witnesses are, 05:15 they have to meet every criteria, 05:17 they have to meet all of the... 05:19 the characteristics that are identified here, 05:21 they could meet... they could actually qualify 05:24 because Moses... yeah and Elijah 05:26 both brought down fire from heaven, 05:28 they both turned water into... that's... that's a qualification 05:30 but they're missing another qualification 05:32 and that is this 1,260-year period, 05:34 they got to prophesy for the whole time... 05:36 ah! that excludes them, well then, who is it? 05:38 And so, when we study Bible prophecy, 05:40 that's what we have to do, we want to look for Bible verses 05:45 and stories and illustrations that would fit 05:47 but if they don't meet all the characteristics, 05:49 we have to keep looking... examine it and keep looking. 05:51 Yvonne: So, what would you say to people who would 05:53 say, oh you have a point? 05:55 Ivor: Let's go to verse 7 05:57 and I'm going to show you something right here. 05:58 Yvonne: Okay, okay. 05:59 Ivor: To make it definitive, right. 06:01 Yvonne: Okay... Ivor: Okay, verse 7... 06:02 "When they shall have finished their testimony... " 06:03 that means... towards the 1,260 years, 06:06 "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit 06:09 shall make war against them, and shall overcome them... " 06:11 and... what? All: "Kill them. " 06:13 Yvonne: Hmmm... James: Hmmm... 06:16 Ivor: Yeah, they're immortal, right? They already have... 06:19 James: Another characteristic they can't meet. 06:20 Ivor: Right. Yvonne: Right. 06:22 Ivor: So, now we know that... 06:23 okay, we know it can't be two living individuals, 06:26 you know, people that have not died... 06:28 James: Especially Moses and Elijah. 06:29 Ivor: Right, we know it can't be Moses and Elijah... why? 06:31 because, even if it were Moses and Elijah, 06:33 they can't die... you see what I'm saying? 06:35 Yvonne: Right, right... 06:37 Ivor: So, we eliminated the possibility of this being 06:39 any normal, you know, 06:41 any prophet that is born among men, 06:45 a human being that has not gone to heaven, 06:48 we've eliminated the fact that it can't be Moses and Elijah 06:50 who ascended... because they die. 06:51 All: Hmmm... hmmm... 06:53 Ivor: So, one of the things we were talking about 06:55 in the previous program is how the temple... 06:59 I'm sorry, the Holy City... is spiritual... 07:02 it's not the literal Holy City, it's spiritual Jerusalem, right? 07:06 It's the church... okay, 07:08 so, again, understanding the book of Revelation, 07:11 is highly symbolic, we have two options, 07:15 either these two witnesses are literal people, 07:19 or it is something symbolic and once we exclude 07:22 any normal person because normal people don't live... 07:26 any human being doesn't live 1,260 years... 07:30 once we exclude Moses and Elijah because they don't die... 07:33 then we are... what are we left with? We've got to turn to 07:37 "Well, this must be symbolic" makes sense? 07:39 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... Ivor: So... 07:40 Jason: I have a question... Ivor: Yeah. 07:42 Jason: Okay, so going back to verse 4, 07:43 these are "the two olive trees and the two candlesticks 07:46 standing before the God of the earth. " 07:48 Are these two of the seven churches? 07:49 Is that what the... candlesticks? 07:51 Ivor: Let's come to that, let's come to that, 07:53 I want to show you something else... back in verse 3, 07:56 we're going to answer this question, 07:58 in verse 3, it says, 08:00 "they prophesy... and they're clothed in sackcloth" 08:05 James: "Clothed in sackcloth," yeah. 08:06 Ivor: Clothed in sackcloth, so, 08:08 what does sackcloth represent in the Bible? 08:10 Yvonne: Mourning... 08:11 Ivor: It represents mourning, so you'll remember... 08:14 James: Esther 3:13... talks about that. 08:17 Ivor: Yeah... when Jacob... when they told Jacob, 08:21 "Hey, Joseph died... " the Bible says, 08:23 "He put sackcloth on himself and he mourned. " 08:26 So, sackcloth... you look over and over in the Bible 08:29 it is a symbol of mourning, of like, just... 08:33 a dark experience... 08:36 and so, whatever these two witnesses are, 08:39 they are going... during this 1,260 years, 08:42 it is a period of mourning, it is... 08:45 they're doing their work under great distress, if you will. 08:50 James: Yeah, let me get a couple of verses on this, 08:52 real quick... just so our Viewers have these, 08:54 this is Esther 3:13, it says, 08:56 "And the king's letters were sent by courier 08:58 into all the king's provinces, to destroy and to kill, 09:00 and to annihilate all the Jews. " 09:02 We're not going to look at the whole story here 09:03 but basically, this is the time when the Jews are basically 09:07 slated for death, they're just going to be killed, 09:09 "And both young and old, little children and women, 09:12 in one day, on the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, 09:14 which is the month of Adar, 09:16 and to plunder their possessions and to every province 09:18 where the king's command and decree arrived, 09:20 there was great mourning among the Jews 09:22 with fasting, weeping, wailing, 09:24 and many lay in sackcloth and ashes. " 09:26 So, sackcloth and ashes indicate mourning, weeping, wailing 09:31 because there were great calamities taking place 09:33 persecution is taking place according to Esther 3:13 09:35 and chapter 4 and verse 3. 09:37 Ivor: Right, so these then, this would again point us to... 09:43 parallels perfectly with 09:45 what's going on during the Dark Ages, okay, 09:48 so, we're looking for these two witnesses, 09:50 they're not humans... 09:52 we're looking for them doing their work under great distress 09:56 it's a time of persecution and so what are our options? 10:02 I mean, like, these are His Two Witnesses, 10:06 right, so let me ask you a question, 10:08 what do witnesses do? 10:11 James: Testify... 10:13 Ivor: They testify... you call a witness to the stand, 10:17 what's the witness going to do? Testify, okay, 10:20 so whose witnesses are these? James and Yvonne: God's... 10:22 Ivor: These are God's witnesses, Christ's witnesses, 10:24 so, we would ask the question then, 10:26 we can ask Jesus Himself, maybe... like, 10:28 "Hey, Jesus, who... who are your witnesses? 10:32 Who testifies of you?" 10:34 Ivor: So, let's see that Jesus actually gives us an answer. 10:37 Yvonne: Oh... I know where you're going but I love it. 10:40 Ivor: Chapter 5 and verse 39, let's see what it says there. 10:44 John chapter 5... 10:45 James: We don't need to turn there do we, Yvonne? 10:49 we've got that verse right... right... right... 10:51 "Search the scriptures... " 10:53 Ivor: "Search the scriptures. " James: "Search the Scriptures. " 10:55 Yvonne: "for in them... " Ivor: "Them... " what? 10:56 "Ye have eternal life: and these are they which... " do what? 10:59 "testify of me. " 11:01 So, Scriptures... Old Testament... New Testament, 11:06 the job of both of these Testaments... 11:10 is to testify of Jesus Christ. Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... 11:12 James: And it's important because... 11:14 we know the New Testament... we kind of accept that... 11:16 "oh yeah... New Testament" 11:17 but when Jesus says, "Search the scriptures... " 11:19 in John 5:39... He's talking about the Old Testament. 11:21 There is no New Testament then... 11:23 He's talking about the Old Testament 11:24 so let's put both together, 11:26 because New Testament is 11:27 what? 75 percent or 70 percent of it is... the Old Testament 11:30 so, these two witnesses testify of Jesus. 11:33 I love that, that's good stuff, yeah. 11:36 Ivor: So Christ... is in all the Scriptures, 11:39 not just the New Testament Scriptures 11:42 and... now I think this is super important to understand 11:45 because, guess what? 11:46 Most... as we've been going through the book of Revelation, 11:50 where we've been going to get almost all of our answers 11:54 as to understanding what it's talking about? 11:56 We've been going back to the Old Testament. 11:57 Ivor: And the reason why so many people have a difficult time 12:01 understanding the book of Revelation, 12:03 is because we have so many, "New Testament Christians" 12:06 "I'm a New Testament... yeah the Old Testament, hey, 12:10 but the New Testament... " right? 12:11 Yvonne: Right, ah ha... 12:13 Ivor: And the book of Revelation 12:14 is based so heavily upon the Old Testament 12:19 and those stories of the Old Testament... 12:21 James: Because it's based on Scripture... 12:23 Ivor: Yeah... 12:24 James: When it was written, that was Scripture... 12:26 Ivor: Absolutely. 12:27 James: Here's another thing that I think is really significant 12:29 on these two witnesses, 12:30 they have power to call plagues down on this earth, okay, 12:36 when Elijah said, "It's not going to rain... " 12:39 he said, "By the word of the Lord" 12:40 it wasn't his word... 12:42 Ivor: Let's go there real quick. James: okay. 12:44 Ivor: 1st Kings 18... James: You got it... 12:46 Ivor: And... I was just looking at that verse, 12:49 something just jumped out at me... 12:50 James: Here we go... here we go. 12:52 Ivor: You know, it just... just really... 12:54 1st Kings 18 and verse 1. 13:01 Yvonne: "And it came to pass after many days, 13:06 that the word of the Lord came to Elijah 13:08 in the third year, saying... Go... " 13:10 Ivor: Stop right there... do you see that just now? 13:13 James: Hmmm... hmmm... "the third year. " 13:14 Ivor: Do you see that? No, no, no, not "third year. " 13:17 Ivor: "the word of the Lord came to Elijah and said... " 13:21 "the word of the Lord... came to Elijah... " 13:27 so, imagine, the word of the Lord, 13:30 is His witness... comes to Elijah 13:33 and says... it doesn't say, "The Lord, the Lord came... " 13:36 it says, "the word of the Lord came to Elijah saying... " 13:40 so when Elijah... when it goes on to say in the third year, 13:43 "saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab; 13:46 and I will send rain upon the earth. " 13:48 Okay, he's talking about now... they had just gone through 13:52 these three years of famine, 13:55 no rain... and then... the Word of the Lord, 13:57 now, we go back to the book of Revelation, 13:59 what are the two witnesses? They are the Word of the Lord, 14:02 right, the Old Testament... and New Testament, 14:04 here you have... it's almost like... 14:06 it's God... but the way that it puts it 14:09 "the word of the Lord comes to Elijah" 14:12 as a witness and says, 14:14 "Okay, Elijah, this is what I want you to do" 14:16 so Elijah caused it not to rain by what? 14:21 Yvonne: "The Word of the Lord. " 14:23 Ivor: So when the book of Revelation says, 14:25 "by these... they have power to stop it from raining" 14:28 Yvonne: Hmmm... 14:29 Ivor: "they have power to turn water to blood" 14:31 and the other story is Moses... 14:33 James: I got it, chapter 4, You want me to read the verses? 14:37 "Moses says unto the Lord... " 14:39 so God calls Moses to be His spokesman... 14:42 to deliver His people out of Egypt in Exodus chapter 4 14:45 and I'm just picking up... just a couple of verses here, 14:49 in Exodus chapter 4 verse 11... 10 and 11... 14:53 "And Moses said until the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, 14:56 neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken 15:01 unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of tongue. " 15:04 And I love this because basically, 15:06 what Moses is saying, "I can't do this... " 15:08 and so God responds to him, and this is what God says, 15:11 "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? 15:14 or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, 15:17 or the blind? have not I the Lord? 15:19 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, 15:24 and teach thee what thou shalt say. " 15:26 It's my word... when we get to Revelation 11, we say, 15:30 "Oh, this must be Moses and Elijah" 15:31 we've just bypassed the whole point of the entire Bible 15:35 it's never Moses or Elijah, 15:37 in fact, when Moses got a little bit impatient with the people 15:41 and he said, "Must we fetch water from this rock?" 15:44 That's when his ticket to the Promise Land was canceled. 15:48 "It's done, because you've just taken the glory to yourself, 15:52 it's my word... " it's always God's word... 15:55 so the reason I love Revelation 11 here is because 15:58 it's not just about identifying 16:00 who these witnesses are, but it's about clarifying... 16:03 it's about clarifying the Old Testament... testimonies 16:06 it's about clarifying the fact 16:08 that human beings are simply channels 16:09 through which God works, 16:11 it's about giving the glory back to God 16:12 and that all comes back to measurement, 16:14 because when we bypass the human, 16:17 then as we measure God, we see human imperfections 16:20 and we bypass them and we keep our focus on Jesus 16:23 and we get the right measurement. 16:24 Yvonne: That's good. 16:26 Ivor: Well, verse 4 brings us to... 16:28 Jason... you have a question about the olive tree 16:31 right, the olive trees and the candlesticks... 16:34 so, let's see, I mean, we're going to... 16:37 the way we progress now is, 16:38 we say, "Okay, it looks like so far 16:40 the Word of God is fitting these characteristics, 16:44 do they also... do they fit as we move on 16:47 right... in the verses, so, the first thing in verse 4 is 16:50 it says, "these are the two olive trees" 16:53 so the two olive trees, like, "What's that?" 16:56 You think of any place in the Bible 16:57 that talks about olive trees? Maybe two of them. 17:00 "Ah... wait a minute, what's the name of that book again?" 17:03 Zechariah... oooh... yeah, Zechariah chapter 3 17:07 so let's go there... or, I think it's Zechariah chapter 4... 17:10 Ivor: Zechariah chapter 4 and let's see... 17:15 let's look at... 17:17 James: Verse 1 and 2 are good I think... 17:19 Ivor: Yeah, go ahead. 17:21 James: Just to get the context. 17:22 "And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, 17:27 as a man that is wakened out of his sleep... " 17:28 and verse 2... "He said unto me, 17:30 what seest thou? And I said, I have looked, 17:32 and behold a candlestick all of gold, 17:34 with a bowl upon the top of it, 17:36 and his seven lamps thereon, 17:38 and seven pipes to the seven lamps, 17:40 which are upon the top thereof... 17:43 And two olive trees by it, 17:45 one upon the right side of the bowl, 17:47 and the other upon the left side thereof. 17:49 So I answered and I spake to the angel that talked with me, 17:52 saying, What are these?" 17:53 Jason, "What are these, my lord? 17:55 What are these, what are these two lampstands, 17:59 what's this lampstand... what are these two olive trees?" 18:02 "Then the angel that talked with me 18:03 answered and said unto me, 18:05 Don't you know what these are? And I said, No, my lord. 18:09 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, 18:11 This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, 18:16 Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, 18:19 saith the LORD of hosts. " 18:21 Ivor: So, here's the way it happened... 18:24 first of all... what is he identifying here? 18:26 He says, he sees this vision... there's that candlestick... 18:31 seven-branched candlestick, or seven bowls, 18:34 and on either side of it there are two olive trees 18:37 and the olive trees are emptying oil 18:39 into the seven-branched candlestick, right, 18:43 the lampstand... now remember that Jesus, Himself, said 18:47 in the book of Matthew, I believe it is, chapter 5, 18:50 "You are the light of the world, 18:52 A city set on a hill cannot be hid. 18:54 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel. " 18:58 A city... a city set on a hill and that's interesting because 19:02 I'm thinking back to Revelation chapter 11, 19:04 the Holy City being persecuted, 19:05 that represents the people of God 19:07 right, so the candlestick... we've already seen... 19:10 "Oh yeah, that represents the people of God, 19:11 it represents the Holy City" okay, 19:15 but what's keeping the light burning? 19:17 It's the Holy Spirit, so, okay, what represents... 19:21 the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit, 19:23 that still doesn't really answer our question though, 19:25 right, the oil is the Holy Spirit, okay, 19:27 so, thus, in the vision the angel says, 19:30 oh God says, "Not by might... " 19:32 in other words, you don't... the fire doesn't burn by might 19:36 nor by power but by my Spirit... 19:40 okay, so, the oil represents the Spirit, 19:43 but the trees... 19:45 we still don't know what that's talking about right? 19:46 So let's go a little bit further down 19:48 and let's see here, verse... 19:55 verse 12... verse 11, yes, verse 11. 20:00 Jason: In Zechariah 4? 20:01 Ivor: Yeah, 11... let's go ahead and read till verse 14. 20:04 Jason: Okay, "Then answered I, and said unto him, 20:06 What are these two olive trees 20:08 upon the right side of the candlestick 20:09 and upon the left side thereof? 20:11 And I answered again, and said unto him, 20:13 What be these two olive branches 20:15 which through the two golden pipes 20:17 empty the golden oil out of themselves? 20:19 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? 20:23 And I said, No, my lord. 20:26 Then said he, 20:29 These are the two anointed ones, 20:31 that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. " 20:33 James: Hmmm... 20:34 Ivor: Okay, so here we have... it gets right to Revelation, 20:38 these are the two olive trees, okay, 20:41 so these olive trees are what allows the oil 20:47 to get to His people, 20:49 James: to the lights... Ivor: to the lights... exactly. 20:52 So, in essence, the candlestick is supported 20:58 by oil and by these two trees, 21:01 two things... oil and the trees, 21:05 now, we have seen that... we're looking at, 21:08 "Does the word fit this, does the word fit this?" 21:10 Jesus said, "Search the Scriptures; 21:12 for in them ye think ye have eternal life: 21:14 these are they which testify of me. " 21:15 Okay, the candlestick is supported by these two witnesses 21:23 does the Word of God... in fact, 21:26 how do we even know about the Holy Spirit? 21:28 James: By the word of God. 21:29 Ivor: By the word of God, right, 21:31 and very interesting in the book of John it says, 21:34 "Sanctify them through thy truth, 21:36 thy word is... " what? "Truth. " 21:39 Jesus says, "They that worship me, 21:42 must worship me in... " what? 21:44 "Spirit and in truth" 21:47 it is the Bible that opens up our understanding 21:50 of who the Holy Spirit is, in other words, 21:53 what kept the church alive during the Dark Ages? 21:58 The Bible... two witnesses. 22:01 James: Verification... Ivor: Go... 22:03 James: "He that hath an ear, 22:05 let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. " 22:08 Ivor: Yes. James: "He that has an ear, 22:10 let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. " 22:12 That is written to the seven churches 22:14 which are the seven candlesticks. 22:15 Jason: Hmmm... hmmm... 22:17 James: So the Spirit is speaking to the churches 22:19 through the Word. Ivor: That's right. 22:21 James: So Revelation chapters 2 and 3 22:22 just verify the whole thing, 22:23 it gives the pictures, verifies... 22:25 Jason: So, the two candlesticks 22:27 are two of the churches, right, or no? 22:29 Ivor: No, no, there's a seven... okay, 22:32 Jason: It seems like, I mean, when you go back to 22:36 where was that found? That was... 22:38 James: Revelation chapter 1, 22:39 yeah, "seven candlesticks are the seven churches. " 22:42 Jason: Yes, so that's why I would think that... 22:45 Ivor: Do this... 22:46 go to Psalm 119:105... 22:48 Jason: 119:105... 22:53 "Thy word is a... " what? "lamp unto my feet, 23:00 and a light unto my path. " 23:01 Okay, when we're looking at these two candlesticks 23:04 in their context, okay, 23:06 they... they are described 23:09 differently than the seven churches are described, 23:12 okay, the seven candlesticks, you look... 23:14 you go into each church... it does this... 23:17 it's a certain period of time, 23:19 these two candlesticks are separate from the seven 23:23 because they have power to do things that 23:25 the seven churches... 23:27 it doesn't say anything about the seven churches, 23:29 you see what I'm saying, so these are two separate... 23:32 it's kind of like this... the lion... 23:35 what is it a symbol of in the Bible? 23:38 James: Christ. 23:39 Ivor: Symbol of Christ. James: But also... 23:41 Ivor: But also, you go to Daniel chapter 7, 23:43 and you have a lion right, in this vision of four beasts, 23:47 the lion in Daniel chapter 7 23:49 does not represent Jesus Christ, 23:50 it represents Babylon. 23:52 James: Neither in Peter where it's, 23:53 "a devouring lion seeking whom he may devour. " 23:55 James: The context is important, that's what he's saying. 23:57 Ivor: Exactly... you want to look at the context and say, 24:00 "Well, just because it's a candlestick doesn't mean 24:02 it's the same candlestick," yeah. 24:04 James: It's really important, we did that with the incense too 24:06 you remember that? Ivor: Exactly. 24:08 James: The incense in Revelation 4, Acts 5... 24:10 represents the prayers of the saints 24:11 but in Revelation 8, it actually represents 24:13 the merits of Christ and the Righteousness of Christ, 24:15 so you get a symbol from the Bible 24:17 but it also has to fit the context of where it applies. 24:19 Ivor: Right. 24:21 James: So, what verifies this symbol, 24:23 I think is so beautiful is that the seven candlesticks 24:26 do represent our witness, the witness of the church 24:28 and the Spirit is what keeps that witness alive, 24:31 the Spirit... listen to what the Spirit says, 24:33 "Well, how does the Spirit say that to the seven churches?" 24:36 "Do the work... do the work... do the work... " 24:37 because every one of those churches is given these words, 24:39 "I know your works... I know this, 24:41 I know that... you need to do this, 24:43 you need to do that" that's the Spirit speaking 24:44 but when you get to Revelation 11, 24:46 you have this... this consummate picture... 24:50 this zenith of reality that the word that is being spoken 24:55 actually comes from the Old and the New Testament, 24:57 that's the source... that's the ultimate source 24:58 of the witness of all the churches. 25:00 Ivor: Let me share something else and I know 25:02 I'm running out of time but we're going to come back, 25:04 we're going to complete these two witnesses, 25:06 but I'm going to show you something... 25:07 go to Revelation 11 and look at verse 11 and 12. 25:12 It says, "After three days and a half 25:14 the spirit of life from God entered into them, 25:18 and they stood upon their feet; 25:19 and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 25:22 And they heard a great voice from heaven 25:24 saying unto them, Come up hither, 25:25 And they ascended up to heaven in a... " what? 25:27 All: "Cloud... " 25:28 Ivor: "cloud and their enemies beheld them. " 25:30 Okay, so, we're going to point out that this, you know, 25:33 was occurring at the end of the 1,260 years, 25:37 and these two witnesses ascend up into a cloud 25:40 right, do you remember what we covered 25:44 in Revelation chapter 10? 25:46 We saw this angel and... James: Clothed with a cloud. 25:50 Ivor: Yeah... what is he clothed with? 25:51 James: Clothed with a cloud... Ivor: A cloud... 25:53 What does he have in his hand? 25:54 Yvonne: A book. James: A little book... hmmm... 25:55 Ivor: A book, okay, what is he doing? 25:57 He's giving his church, right, 25:59 the understanding of the Word of God. 26:02 So, when you actually look at it, 26:04 right after the Dark Ages, the book ascends 26:07 in the cloud... and now you have the angel 26:11 in Revelation chapter 10, with a cloud.. 26:14 "Here's the book... " so as we... 26:18 as we're looking at this, we're saying, 26:20 "You know what, the Bible appears to be fitting so far, 26:23 most of these characteristics, 26:25 we haven't finished but as we go through, we will see... " 26:28 James: Wait till we get to the historical part 26:29 where we have to see if the Bible fits 26:31 the historical application... 26:33 Ivor: What actually happened. 26:34 James: Yeah, and that's really going to nail it for us, 26:36 because I'll say... I'll say this as we go through this, 26:39 even as we meet all these characteristics 26:41 and even as we look at history, 26:43 we're still going to have some wiggle room, 26:44 there has to be room for faith... 26:46 you can't just nail this down and say, 26:49 "Okay, good, now it's solid, proof... " 26:51 proof, you know, I want to say, 26:53 "waterproof, watertight... there's no wiggle room," 26:57 there has to be some wiggle room. 26:58 God has to leave some wiggle room, why? 27:00 Because we have to exercise faith... 27:01 ultimately, we have to exercise faith... 27:03 but I love the journey you've taken us on, Ivor, 27:06 because I really think this has laid it out very powerfully, 27:10 very Biblically and very simply 27:11 and setting us up, the thing I like about this is 27:13 we start out with this basic summary, 27:16 then we get into the symbols, 27:17 identify them Biblically and then we get into more symbols, 27:19 identify them... and pretty soon it's just... 27:21 there's just this insurmountable mountain of faith 27:25 based on the Word of God... evidence... 27:26 that just nails it... 27:28 and then we just have to exercise 27:30 just a little bit of faith and boom! we're there, I love that, 27:32 all right, so we're going to leave off right here, 27:37 if folks want to get ahold of us... 27:39 they have questions or want to share those questions 27:41 how would they get ahold of us? 27:43 Jason: They could just send it to: sss@3abn. org 27:46 James: sss@3abn. org so we'll leave off right here, 27:50 we'll pick up... right here where we left off 27:52 in our next program 27:54 as we continue to study Revelation chapter 11. 27:56 Yvonne: Great... |
Revised 2016-12-19