Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000049A
00:29 Okay, we made a good start,
00:30 we got into Revelation chapter 12,
00:32 we talked about the woman
00:34 and the glorious picture that's revealed there,
00:36 of course, this woman representing the Jewish Church
00:39 and Christ coming forth from this woman
00:42 but I love the big picture of what was brought out there, Ivor
00:45 where we went all the way back to Genesis chapter 3
00:47 and we looked at the conflict and the promise,
00:49 the travailing of the church all the way through history
00:53 and the amazing revelations... the shadows, if you will,
00:57 of this conflict that finally brings forth Messiah...
01:01 and finally He's born and the dragon tries to destroy Him
01:04 of course through Herod, we see that in the gospels, but,
01:07 He's caught up to heaven,
01:08 He's caught up to God and to His throne
01:10 and He's going to rule the nations, so,
01:13 so we know this is the birth of the Messiah
01:15 that started our fourth prophetic cycle,
01:17 we left off in verse 5
01:19 and I'm hoping that we can just pick up there
01:21 and continue on verse 6, 7, 8 onward and just...
01:24 just understand what these verses are talking about
01:26 but before we do that,
01:27 the only way that we're going to understand this
01:29 is if we had a word of prayer, Yvonne.
01:30 Yvonne: Yes, sure. "Father, thank you so very much
01:33 for just being with us Lord,
01:35 and helping us to study your Word...
01:37 please, now bring everything
01:40 into remembrance that needs to be there,
01:42 help that every word that's spoken
01:44 will bring you honor and glory, thank you Father God,
01:47 thank you for your Spirit, in Jesus' name, amen. "
01:49 All: "Amen. "
01:51 James: Ivor, something that I've noticed here
01:53 that I think is significant,
01:54 we identified the woman as the Jewish church
01:57 why? because Christ was born a Jew,
01:59 He was born in the Jewish Church,
02:01 we haven't really looked at Bible verses
02:04 that say that a woman is the church
02:06 and I think it would be important for us to do that
02:08 because, in verse 6,
02:10 we see this woman fleeing in the wilderness
02:12 and the question I am asking you in this context is
02:15 the Jewish Church was basically taken out in A.D. 70
02:18 what is the woman that flees...
02:19 what church flees into the wilderness?
02:21 Has something taken place here in relation to the church...
02:27 in relation to early Christian history,
02:30 the history of the church?
02:32 So, what about a couple of verses
02:33 that identify the woman as a church
02:35 because we just kind of said,
02:36 "Oh yeah, this woman is a church... " we kind of said that
02:38 but we didn't really go and look at some verses,
02:40 so, we have a few verses on that?
02:42 Ivor: Yeah, I think we can look at Ephesians chapter 5
02:49 and let's look at verse 20... start with verse 25...
02:54 yeah, Ephesians 5 verse... let's look at verse...
02:59 let's look at verse 23...
03:01 let's start with verse 23 and read on.
03:02 James: Okay, I've another one too and that's
03:03 2nd Corinthians chapter 11, and I wanted us to look at
03:07 verse 2, I think, would do it.
03:09 Ivor: Okay, so, I'll go ahead and read this,
03:11 "For the husband is the head of the wife,
03:14 even as Christ is the head of the church... "
03:17 James: Okay... Ivor: okay...
03:19 "and he is the Saviour of the body.
03:20 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ,
03:22 so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
03:26 Husbands, love your wives,
03:27 even as Christ also loved the church,
03:30 and gave himself for it;
03:31 That he might sanctify and cleanse it
03:34 with the washing of water by the word.
03:36 That he might present it to himself a glorious church,
03:39 not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing;
03:42 but that it should be holy and without blemish. "
03:44 Yvonne: Hmmm...
03:46 Ivor: So, these verses clearly point to us...
03:48 point out to us that the relationship between
03:51 the husband and the wife is synonymous with the
03:54 relationship between Christ and His church.
03:57 James: Okay, the one I'm thinking about,
03:59 did anyone look that one up, 2nd Corinthians chapter 11?
04:02 Yvonne: Yes. "For I am jealous over you
04:04 with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you
04:07 to one husband, that I may present you
04:09 as a chaste virgin to Christ. "
04:11 James: All right, so between those two sections of Scriptures
04:14 and there are a number of them in the Old Testament
04:16 that are very clear, "I've likened the daughter of
04:17 Zion to a delicate, comely woman"
04:19 over and over again, we see this symbolism
04:23 of the woman representing the church.
04:25 The woman representing God's people
04:27 and in this on context, then,
04:29 we've identified this woman as the Jewish Church
04:33 because Jesus Christ was born a Jew,
04:36 in the age of the Jewish church
04:38 and in being born a Jew,
04:41 He came into this world to be the Messiah
04:43 was caught up to heaven... and then a transition takes place
04:45 the Jewish Nation as a Nation
04:47 rejects Christ... not individuals...
04:51 there were a lot of... 1000s of Jews accepted Christ as Messiah
04:54 but the Nation itself... the Leaders... the Sanhedrin...
04:56 reject Christ, He's crucified,
04:59 their rejection is sealed up
05:02 when they stone Stephen in A.D. 34
05:03 and at that point, the Jewish Church...
05:06 is closing the door to the acceptance of Messiah
05:11 and Christ, even in His death, He brings 12 apostles together
05:15 and begins a new church,
05:17 one of the apostles, of course, betrays Christ, Judas,
05:19 and he's replaced...
05:20 and I think Paul ends up being the final replacement for him,
05:23 but we have the beginning of the Christian Church,
05:26 and I see, this is what we're talking about in verse 6
05:28 we're not talking about the
05:30 Jewish Church fleeing in the wilderness,
05:31 we're talking about the Christian Church
05:33 fleeing in the wilderness.
05:34 Ivor: Yeah, what's really interesting is that
05:38 in verse... man, I'm just having a moment here,
05:42 Yvonne: Oh... you just saw something, oh...
05:46 come on... come on... come on now...
05:50 James: I can't remember if you talk in these moments or not.
05:52 Ivor: I don't talk during these moments...
05:53 James: You don't talk during these moments?
05:54 Jason: It's not healthy to keep it bottled up.
05:56 James: It's not... you need to let it out.
05:57 Yvonne: He's savoring it.
05:59 Ivor: Yeah... so, in verse 5 it says,
06:00 "She brought forth a man child,
06:01 who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
06:04 and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. "
06:05 James: Right.
06:07 Ivor: This whole verse summarizes
06:08 what Israel had been waiting for for a very long time.
06:11 They had been waiting for the coming of the Messiah,
06:13 and this tells about His coming,
06:15 His death, burial and resurrection
06:17 well, here's what's interesting about that.
06:20 In the book of Daniel, there is a prophecy
06:23 that pointed forward to the coming of Christ,
06:25 it is a 70-Week Prophecy,
06:27 that 70-Week Prophecy basically stated to Israel
06:30 that they had a certain period of time
06:33 to basically get it together
06:36 and if they did not get it together,
06:37 the Messiah would be coming in within this time
06:39 and if they did not get it together,
06:40 God was basically going to take the gospel from them
06:43 and give it to a Nation...
06:46 bringing forth the fruits thereof.
06:47 That prophecy is called the 70-Week Prophecy,
06:51 it ends in 34 A.D.
06:53 it's the very year you mentioned in which Stephen was stoned.
06:55 The significant thing about this is that 70 weeks...
06:59 a week is 7 days... 70 weeks is 70 times 7
07:03 I don't know if you remember when Jesus...
07:06 when Peter came to Jesus and said,
07:07 "Jesus, how often should I
07:09 grant mercy to my enemies, seven times?
07:11 And Jesus said, "No, I say unto you, 70 times 7"
07:15 70 times 7 represents the number...
07:17 the measure of God's mercy before that mercy's cut off,
07:23 and so what happens is that
07:25 when Israel had rejected the Messiah
07:27 and made it... kind of sealed it with the stoning of Stephen,
07:32 the 70 times 7 was up and Jesus, as He had prophesied,
07:37 "the Kingdom would be taken from them
07:39 and given forth to a Nation
07:40 bringing forth the fruits thereof. "
07:42 Yvonne: Hmmm...
07:43 Ivor: The interesting thing about this is that
07:45 there are three time prophecies in the book of Daniel,
07:48 there's the 70 weeks, there's the 1,260 years
07:51 and then there is the 2,300-year prophecy
07:54 in which a remnant comes upon the scene
07:56 which keeps the commandments of God and has the faith of Jesus.
08:00 James: Hmmm... hmmm...
08:01 Ivor: In chapter 12, you have all three present,
08:04 you have the 70 weeks,
08:06 Christ's coming... being caught up
08:08 in the very next verse,
08:10 you have the woman going into the wilderness for how long?
08:13 1,260... and at the very end of the chapter,
08:17 you have the dragon going after the remnant
08:21 which keep the commandments of God
08:23 and have the faith of Jesus,
08:25 it attests the 2,300-Day Prophecy
08:28 which we will see when we get to Revelation chapter 14,
08:31 but this transition from
08:34 literal Israel to spiritual Israel,
08:36 when we read Revelation chapter 5 and see,
08:38 "Oh, this is when Christ is caught up to the throne,
08:40 He came, He died, was buried... resurrected,
08:43 we know that Old Testament Israel had rejected the Messiah
08:47 so there's this transition so when we read in verse 6
08:51 that this woman flees into the wilderness,
08:53 yeah, this woman is that nation
08:55 bringing forth the fruits thereof.
08:57 She's spiritual Israel, made up of Jew and Gentile,
09:01 those who are in the bloodline, if you will, of Jesus Christ...
09:05 because they've accepted Him by faith.
09:08 James: Yet, Revelation 12 still calls her the woman...
09:11 Ivor: Yes... and I think this is really important, Ivor,
09:14 because I think some of our Viewers are
09:16 struggling with this transition so here's what I want to do,
09:19 I want us to look at a couple of verses,
09:20 I'm thinking of Galatians 3:29 and Romans 2:28 and 29
09:25 and the reason why I want to mention this
09:28 is because the reason why the woman does...
09:30 God doesn't say in Revelation 12,
09:32 "The woman gave birth to the child... "
09:33 then there was another woman, or then there was a spiritual...
09:35 and then there was a... no... it's still the woman...
09:39 the woman doesn't change... see, the woman never changes,
09:42 the woman has always been...
09:44 all the way through history, it's been the same woman
09:46 and we've got to decide...
09:47 if we're going to be part of that woman because that woman...
09:49 is the one who gives birth to the man child
09:51 the seed... she's going to bring forth the seed.
09:52 That woman is the church,
09:55 always has been... always will be the church,
09:57 so how are we part of that church?
09:59 Galatians 3:29...
10:00 Yvonne: I think you hit the mike on the head because...
10:05 because there's no statement of a new woman
10:10 and yet, there's a transition here,
10:13 into another aspect of the woman, I guess,
10:17 but see, I've never... I had questions about that
10:21 because it just...
10:23 that's one of the things that doesn't really...
10:24 I haven't connected it yet.
10:26 James: We're going to look at three verses,
10:28 we're going to look at Galatians 3:29...
10:29 Romans 2:28 and 29
10:30 and then we're going to look at Romans 9.
10:32 Ivor: I'm in Romans 9 right now.
10:34 James: So you get Romans 9,
10:35 you got Galatians 3:29...
10:36 Yvonne, Romans 2:28 and 29, let's start with Jason.
10:40 Jason: "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,
10:44 and heirs according to the promise. "
10:46 James: The only way you're Abraham's seed...
10:48 which... the seed of Abraham is Israel, right?
10:50 Yvonne: Right. James: Is if you're in Christ.
10:52 Okay, your verses.
10:53 Yvonne: Oh, okay, wow, Romans 2:28 and 29,
10:57 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;
11:00 neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
11:04 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;
11:07 and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,
11:10 and not in the letter;
11:11 whose praise is not of men, but of God. "
11:14 James: Okay, so it's inward, it's in Abraham's seed...
11:18 in Christ or Abraham's seed, it's not outward, it's inward,
11:21 now what do we have in Romans 9?
11:23 Ivor: Romans 9 verse 6 to 8 and it says,
11:26 "Not as though the word of God has taken not effect.
11:29 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
11:32 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
11:35 are they all children:
11:36 but, In Isaac shall they seed be called.
11:39 And that is, They which are the children
11:41 of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
11:44 but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. "
11:46 James: Hmmm... hmmm...
11:48 Ivor: "the children of the promise... "
11:49 Yvonne: Hmmm...
11:51 James: See what these verse are saying?
11:52 These verses are telling us that it's always been...
11:55 always has been... the children of the promise.
11:57 Ivor: So, that's Israel...
11:59 James: Yes, yes.
12:00 Ivor: It's still Israel...
12:01 James: It's still Israel... it's still the woman...
12:03 Ivor: Yeah. James: It's still the woman...
12:05 just because you have an official church
12:07 that rejects Christ, doesn't mean that the woman
12:10 has gone somewhere, the woman is still present,
12:12 everyone who accepts Christ is part of this woman,
12:14 the woman continues on...
12:16 no one takes the identity of the woman,
12:18 no one can steal the identity of the church,
12:21 the church marches on... the church marches on.
12:23 It stays... all the way through it stays...
12:25 it's stable... it's Christ's church
12:27 and the gates of hell do not prevail against it
12:29 and it's really interesting
12:31 because the foundation of the Christian church is Jewish,
12:34 all the disciples were Jewish... the Messiah is Jewish
12:37 and thousands of Jews came into that church
12:40 but the goal of the church was to win the world.
12:43 Everyone was to become part of Abraham's seed.
12:45 Ivor: That's right.
12:47 James: As the stars of heaven,
12:48 everyone was to become a spiritual Israel,
12:50 everyone was to be part of that "saved multitude"
12:54 and so, that's why I think it's so important
12:56 to see this right here,
12:57 we don't identify God's woman in Revelation chapter 8 ethnically
13:03 we don't identify her in a specific location
13:06 she is identified right here by what she goes through
13:09 first of all, bringing forth a man child,
13:10 second of all... going into the wilderness
13:12 and then as she gets to the very end,
13:13 we see the remnant of this woman,
13:15 she's identified as keeping the commandments of God
13:17 and having the testimony of Jesus.
13:18 There are a lot of Jews that keep the commandments of God
13:20 but don't have the testimony of Jesus,
13:22 there are a lot of people having the testimony of Jesus,
13:23 but they don't keep the commandments of God.
13:24 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
13:26 James: So the woman... the one that's continued on
13:28 and never stopped and never ceased,
13:29 all the way through the wilderness,
13:31 all the way through the Dark Ages, all the way through,
13:33 the woman... when she comes out in the other end,
13:35 when you see the last remnant, this is what she does.
13:37 Ivor: And what's crucial to understand is...
13:42 God has already shown us through the seven churches
13:45 remember, the church is the bride
13:48 so as we learn the history of the early church
13:51 and we're now looking at Martin Luther
13:53 as part of that church,
13:55 "Oh, but the church can't be the literal nation of Israel
14:00 because He just showed us the seven churches,
14:03 we just looked at the history of the church,
14:05 we looked at the history of the church... being persecuted... "
14:09 and this is the description so, Revelation 12...
14:12 we understand it better
14:14 as we understand Revelation chapters 1 through 11,
14:17 as we understand the seven churches,
14:19 how they unfold... He's already showed us
14:21 now He's just saying, "Okay, I just want to make sure,
14:24 now when I say, 'woman' you know what that means right?
14:27 Because that's going to be important to understand
14:30 when we get to Revelation chapter 17
14:31 when we get to Revelation chapter 18."
14:33 And we see one woman trying to go after another woman
14:36 right? One woman trying to destroy God's bride...
14:40 we begin to understand these pieces...
14:42 these important pieces,
14:44 you know, I was thinking,
14:45 we talked about the journey of... of Israel for...
14:48 I mean, sorry, the journey
14:49 to get into Revelation chapter 12, 13, 14...
14:53 if you're going on a trip, you get on the plane
14:57 or you get on the bus... you're traveling
14:59 and eventually when you get to the place where you're going,
15:03 the place where we're going is Revelation chapter 12 to 22,
15:06 the journey is Revelation chapter 1 to 11,
15:09 so we're on the journey... "Okay, I see that... "
15:12 we're kind of looking at things on the way there...
15:14 "Wow! that's nice... oh, look at that over there"
15:17 the destination... that's where we are right now,
15:20 from 12... 13... James: Yeah, we're arriving...
15:23 Ivor: We're arriving... so when we get to 13... 14 onward,
15:26 "Okay, this is where we are now,
15:27 wait... this is where we are now in earth's history,
15:30 now we're at the destination,
15:32 I can understand the destination better
15:34 by the journey that I took to get there. "
15:36 Yvonne: Yeah. Ivor: Yeah.
15:37 James: Now there's something else God wants us to notice
15:39 in this chapter that's really significant
15:42 and it underlies... it's not overtly recognizable
15:46 but it will be as we get through to some other verses
15:49 but it starts... and I'm just going to use the word here,
15:52 it starts here in verse 4 and you might wonder why
15:55 why are verses 3 and 4 in there?
15:59 They're talking about the great dragon,
16:00 having six heads... excuse me...
16:02 seven heads and ten horns
16:03 and crowns on his heads and then in verse 4...
16:05 "and his tail... drew the third part of the stars of heaven
16:08 and cast them to the earth"
16:09 why do we transition to that? Well, here's the reason why...
16:13 because the warning that God is giving us here
16:18 in recounting this history,
16:19 is a warning against deception, about being deceived...
16:22 the tail... according to Isaiah 9:15,
16:25 the tail of any symbolic... let me re-phrase that...
16:30 the symbolism of the tail is: lies and deception...
16:34 Yvonne: Ah...
16:36 James: So the dragon is sweeping these...
16:37 one third of the angels out of heaven by his lies and deception
16:40 the dragon started the deception in heaven,
16:44 that was the first time it happened
16:46 and it happened with the angels,
16:47 the second time it happened
16:48 was in the Garden of Eden with the woman.
16:50 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
16:51 James: So you have the woman and you have the serpent...
16:53 you have the woman and you have the serpent mentioned here,
16:54 it should remind us of the Garden of Eden,
16:56 it explicitly here... spells out the deception in heaven,
17:00 the dragon with the tail... the third of the angels
17:03 so you've got the "heaven deception,"
17:04 you've got the "woman deception,"
17:06 then, the next deception that is huge right now
17:10 in the Christian world... is the lack of recognizing transition
17:14 from the Jewish Church to the Christian Church,
17:17 what we've just talked about
17:18 that the woman continues on she is God's church...
17:22 God's church is not back with
17:24 this Jewish nation in the Middle East,
17:27 that's where the focus of a lot of people is right now,
17:29 that's not it... the focus is... this worldwide church
17:32 that has continued on... that's the third deception,
17:35 it's one of the biggest right now,
17:36 because everyone's thinking,
17:37 "the only way prophecy can be fulfilled
17:39 is with this literal Jewish Nation,
17:40 getting the temple restored... rebuilt...
17:42 God says, 'it's going to lay desolate till the end of time'"
17:44 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
17:45 James: Okay.. and then the fourth deception...
17:47 and here it is... right here... the 4th deception,
17:49 it says here, okay here it is...
17:52 verse 9, "And the great dragon was cast out,
17:58 that old serpent, called the Devil,
18:00 and Satan, which deceives the whole world"
18:02 that's what... when Ivor says,
18:05 "we've been journeying but now we've arrived... "
18:07 this is where we are...
18:08 see... he deceived a third of the angels,
18:10 right... he deceived the woman in Eden, right,
18:13 he's deceived a lot of people in relation to this transition
18:18 but now he's out to deceive the entire world,
18:21 that's what he's building to, deception of the entire world,
18:24 so that's where we've arrived to,
18:26 so God is actually preparing us
18:27 to be able to withstand the deception
18:29 that's coming upon the entire world,
18:31 as we get into the last few chapters
18:32 of the book of Revelation. Yvonne: Hmmm...
18:34 Ivor: And I want to share something that we...
18:35 it's a little bit backward because we have not covered...
18:38 typically when you go through the book of Revelation,
18:42 it's really good to have an understanding
18:43 of the book of Daniel first... Old Testament...
18:46 the books go together... Yvonne: Right.
18:48 Ivor: We're going to be doing Daniel later on...
18:51 but... there's something... because God is...
18:54 James and I were talking and we were saying,
18:57 "You know, in Revelation 12, it seems like these verses,
19:00 like, more than any other verses in the entire book of Revelation
19:03 that these verses seem to have like dual layers
19:06 and just hold your place, read Revelation12:4 again,
19:10 "his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven
19:13 and did cast them to the earth"
19:15 okay, this is talking about the dragon,
19:17 go back, if you will, with me to the book of Daniel chapter 8.
19:20 James: Oh 8... yeah... yeah... yeah... yeah...
19:22 Ivor: Daniel chapter 8, absolutely...
19:25 and in Daniel chapter 8 and verse 9,
19:28 it speaks about this little horn
19:30 and this little horn... we understand to be
19:34 a representation of the Papal Power,
19:37 but notice what it says of this, it says,
19:39 "And out of one of them came forth...
19:41 out of one of them came forth a little horn,
19:43 which waxed exceeding great, toward the south,
19:46 and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. "
19:48 And it waxed great, even to the... " who?
19:51 All: Host...
19:52 Ivor: "the host of heaven; and
19:54 it cast down some of the host and of the stars
19:57 to the ground, and stamped upon them.
19:58 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host"
20:02 we'll stop right there,
20:04 it's almost as though God is opening up our eyes,
20:08 saying, "Hey, look at this verse but I want you to look at it
20:10 a little bit deeper because I'm preparing you to see something,
20:13 not only that... this same little horn...
20:15 just jump back with me to Daniel 7,
20:17 Daniel 7 and in verse 8, I believe it is,
20:21 "I considered the horns, and, behold,
20:25 there came up among them another little horn... "
20:26 there are ten horns... and then there's this little horn,
20:30 and again, it's the same little horn, right?
20:31 Ivor: "before whom there were three of the first horns
20:34 plucked up by the roots... "
20:36 so this little horn... uproots three out of the ten horns
20:40 that's roughly one third of the ten horns...
20:44 All: Hmmm... Ivor: Okay, what in the world?
20:47 Here you have the dragon, what is he doing?
20:50 He deceives one third of the angels...
20:52 or roots one third of the angels...
20:53 and he casts down the stars and the host to the ground,
20:57 where have I heard that before? That's the little horn...
21:00 could it be... that the little horn
21:03 is doing on earth the exact same thing
21:05 that Satan did in heaven? All: Hmmm...
21:07 Ivor: In other words, God in these...
21:09 in this particular chapter is giving us like...
21:12 insights that are... multi-dimensional
21:15 so we're following a pattern but He's beginning to say,
21:18 "No, no, no, no... look a little bit closer
21:19 look... because this power that
21:21 appears to be the mystery of Godliness,
21:23 is actually the mystery of iniquity. "
21:26 James: Right... Yvonne: Hmmm...
21:27 Ivor: Right... "It's actually deceptive,
21:29 it's actually doing something...
21:31 even though it's speaking in my name,
21:32 that's not me... I'm showing you who this power is really like,
21:36 this power is really like the dragon,
21:38 and I'm not the dragon... "
21:40 that's what the world thinks, right,
21:42 that's what the Atheist thinks,
21:43 "Man, God... He is vindictive... He is... "
21:46 No, no, no, no, no... wrong picture...
21:47 this is who He is.
21:50 James: I love these parallels,
21:51 I love that parallel between 8 and 12.
21:52 I never saw that before, that's so significant
21:54 because there's another connection.
21:57 James: This is another connection between the books
21:58 of Daniel and Revelation and I think it's really important
22:01 to see those connections.
22:02 Ivor: So, back in 11... I'm sorry... 12...
22:05 James: 12... yeah, so, now we're getting into
22:09 some principle, key verses,
22:11 we've got deception, deception, deception,
22:13 "Well, I don't know, maybe... maybe he's going to deceive us,
22:16 maybe he isn't going to deceive us, how, how... "
22:17 well, wait a minute... let's read verses 7, 8 and 9,
22:21 and see just how powerful this deception is.
22:24 Jason, read those verses for us, would you?
22:26 "And there was war in heaven:
22:28 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
22:30 and the dragon fought and his angels,
22:32 And prevailed not;
22:33 neither was their place found any more in heaven.
22:36 And the great dragon was cast out,
22:38 that old serpent, called the Devil,
22:40 and Satan which deceiveth the whole world:
22:42 he was cast out into the earth,
22:44 and his angels were cast out with him. "
22:46 James: His angels... did Satan create angels, like,
22:50 "What do you mean... 'his angels?'"
22:51 Is... Satan's the creator and God created some angels
22:55 and then Satan created some angels?
22:56 How did he get angels? He deceived them.
23:00 You actually become... you are possessed by Satan...
23:03 you become his property, it's not like you have freedom,
23:06 "they're mine... " okay and now, they have...
23:10 they have been deceived so what we need to realize is
23:13 Satan's work has started in heaven,
23:16 Satan deceived unfallen angels, it's powerful,
23:20 God is saying, "Look out... you're not safe on your own
23:24 this is what you're dealing with right here,
23:27 this is a power that you can't handle yourself... "
23:30 but I love the focus of this because it says,
23:34 "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
23:38 and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not...
23:41 and prevailed not... "
23:44 so, there is a place for...
23:48 we might even say there's a place for church discipline,
23:52 there is a place for discipline,
23:53 Satan is allowed to continue existence
23:56 but he's not allowed to stay in heaven.
23:57 Yvonne: Hmmm...
23:59 James: He's kicked out of heaven,
24:01 "This... your place in heaven is lost
24:03 because you would cause chaos, you would cause division,
24:06 you would cause anarchy... right here,
24:08 if you stayed right here... " so, he goes out of heaven
24:10 because he's not prevailing because the dragon now...
24:13 I mean... because Michael now,
24:15 Michael... the word Michael means "one who is like God"
24:21 one who is like God...
24:22 Jason: That makes me think about Adam and Eve
24:24 when they were kicked out of the garden,
24:26 when they were deceived but they still were allowed to exist
24:31 and all that stuff, yeah.
24:33 James: So we're coming back to the issue of character,
24:35 "one who is like God... "
24:37 in other words, Satan is kicked out
24:38 by someone who... I don't think it's by force...
24:41 this war is not a... "I'm stronger than you... "
24:45 this is a... polemic... this is a war of words...
24:49 this is a war of character.
24:50 Ivor: Michael... "one who is like God. "
24:52 James: Yes... yes...
24:54 Ivor: Keep going man, keep going.
24:55 James: Yeah, I will... I will...
24:57 Ivor: You give me a minute...
24:58 give me a minute, go, go, go, you got to build your theme.
25:01 James: All right, hold on let me just put my Timer on real quick
25:03 a minute... a minute...
25:06 okay let's start right there, okay, 59 seconds...
25:10 okay, so, this is a war of character,
25:13 the only way that Satan can be kicked out is if
25:17 Michael prevails in revealing God's character
25:20 because Satan has sought to undermine God's character,
25:24 deceived the angels about God and we know that
25:25 because when we go to the Garden of Eden,
25:27 that's what Satan does immediately with Eve.
25:29 Satan probably tells her the same things he told the angels.
25:31 "God is restrictive... God wants to control you...
25:35 God knows that in the day you eat, you will be like Him...
25:38 He wants to keep you on a lower level...
25:40 I'm just telling you... I'm just telling you because
25:41 I like God, He's got a great Kingdom
25:43 and He's really good at what He does,
25:44 on His place and time but... you've got to graduate from that
25:47 you've got to move on, you know,
25:49 you've got to... you need to come to my school
25:51 and I can teach you some things
25:53 that you're not going to get from God
25:54 and it will be better for you, you'll be wiser...
25:56 you'll have all kinds of insight and understanding... "
25:59 and Michael comes and He just reveals this character
26:01 He's not warring... fighting in the sense of...
26:05 He's just revealing more and more of the character of God
26:07 and we have to make it... oh... sorry... the timer... time's up.
26:12 Ivor: Michael... I'm following you...
26:16 so, Michael... the name means, "the one who is like God"
26:19 Lucifer was cast out of heaven, why?
26:22 Because he wanted to be like God "I can be like the Most High"
26:27 but why was he cast out?
26:29 What deception was there in being like...?
26:31 Because there's nothing wrong
26:32 with wanting to be like the Most High...
26:34 but Lucifer... had iniquity in him,
26:36 in other words, he rejected God's law,
26:39 Lucifer, basically, in heaven, was like,
26:41 "Look, I can be like God without obeying His law"
26:44 I don't need a law in order to determine what righteousness is,
26:47 I can determine it for myself what righteousness is,
26:51 so, Lucifer was anti-Law... which...
26:54 "Man, oh, I can be like God,
26:56 I can be holy without a Law telling me what to do"
26:58 you know what?
26:59 That's exactly what the little horn does,
27:01 "You can be like God... you don't need to obey His Laws"
27:05 that's exactly what he told Eve in the Garden...
27:07 he didn't say, "Eve, do you want to be evil?"
27:09 he said, "Eve, you can be like God without obeying Him,
27:14 you can be like Michael, you can be like God. "
27:18 Ivor: So this term of "Michael" fighting it...
27:21 the argument is, "How can you be like God?
27:25 Is it through your own righteousness
27:26 or is it submitting to the will of God?" Yeah...
27:29 James: And what does it mean to be like God?
27:31 Ivor: And what does it mean to be like God?
27:33 James: We are out of time again,
27:34 we're going to pick this up... we've got to look at this
27:36 because this is a powerful picture
27:38 and we've got to see how this war impacts us today, right now.
27:43 Yvonne: Yeah, ooooh.