Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Jason Bradley, Yvonne Lewis
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000050A
00:29 This is truly the best part of the book of Revelation,
00:33 there is so much here...
00:34 layer after layer after layer of truth
00:36 and the reason why it's so important, I think,
00:38 for us to be able to see the truth here is because
00:40 God is warning us about deception...
00:42 deception is huge in the book of Revelation
00:45 and the warning against it comes again and again and again
00:50 and that's what we see here in Revelation chapter 12,
00:52 we've got the symbols of the woman,
00:54 we've got the dragon,
00:55 we've got the "white" that the woman is clothed in,
00:58 all taking us back to Genesis and the first deception
01:01 that was played on us there with Eve
01:04 and then... we go all the way back to heaven,
01:07 it all began in heaven...
01:09 the war began in heaven... what kind of war was it?
01:11 Well, let's pick up with that after we have a word of prayer,
01:14 let's pick up with what kind of war it was.
01:15 Jason, pray for us, please.
01:17 Jason: Sure, "Dear Heavenly Father,
01:18 as we dive deeper and deeper into Revelation,
01:21 we ask that you would pour out your Holy Spirit
01:24 so that we may understand fully what we are reading
01:26 and please be with our Viewers and Listeners as well,
01:29 in Jesus' name we pray, amen. " All: "Amen. "
01:32 We know it wasn't a war of tanks and guns...
01:35 because heaven is much more sophisticated than that,
01:39 I mean, at the very least it would be lasers or some kind of
01:43 technology that is just far beyond us
01:45 but it's pretty clear from the Bible
01:49 that it was a war of words.
01:50 All: Hmmm... hmmm...
01:51 James: War is something that we think of
01:55 in relation to military might and fire power
01:58 but the word actually is polemos
02:01 and that word is connected with
02:03 the word that we use for politics
02:05 Yvonne: Hmmm...
02:07 James: It was a political war, it was a war that had to do with
02:11 with strategy... with communications
02:15 the Bible indicates... in the Old Testament
02:17 that Satan himself
02:19 was a merchandiser of words against God
02:23 that iniquity was found in him
02:25 and he began to merchandise this iniquity
02:27 toward the other angels that would listen to him
02:30 and he started putting seeds of doubt into their minds
02:33 about God and His character and who He was
02:36 and we know this for two reasons, to be a fact...
02:38 not only does it say it in the Old Testament,
02:41 but we see it happening in the book of Genesis,
02:43 think about that...
02:45 in fact, let's look at those verses there
02:47 in Genesis chapter 3 and the way that he approached the woman
02:49 and then the other reason we know is because
02:51 that's exactly what we see happening
02:53 in the world at large today.
02:54 We know that Satan's come down to deceive the whole world
02:57 his mode of operation hasn't changed,
03:01 he is seeking to put seeds of doubt
03:04 into our minds about the character of God
03:06 and the love of God and he does it...
03:08 to a large degree... through religious guys...
03:10 through misrepresenting Him through religion
03:12 misrepresenting God through religion
03:13 so, Yvonne, can you read for us, in Genesis, can you read for us
03:18 Genesis chapter 3 and verses... just let's start with verse 1
03:22 and let's read all the way through verse 5.
03:24 Yvonne: "Now the serpent was more subtle
03:27 than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
03:30 And he said unto the woman, Yeah, hath God said,
03:32 Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
03:35 And the woman said unto the serpent,
03:37 We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
03:39 But of the fruit of the tree
03:41 which is in the midst of the garden,
03:43 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,
03:46 neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
03:48 And the serpent said unto the woman,
03:50 Ye shall not surely die:
03:52 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
03:55 then your eyes shall be opened
03:57 and shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. "
04:00 James: All right...
04:01 so the first thing that Satan's saying about God is
04:03 that God can't be trusted to tell you the truth.
04:05 Yvonne: Hmmm...
04:07 James: "God's a liar...
04:08 he's not telling you the truth, you're not really going to die"
04:11 and the second thing he's saying is
04:13 that God is selfish...
04:15 "God actually... there is something in this fruit
04:19 that will make you just like Him
04:20 and He doesn't want you to have that.
04:21 God is selfish... and He's a withholder...
04:24 He wants to withhold from you,
04:26 He wants to hold you down to another level,
04:28 He's kind of... kind of control you
04:30 and make sure that you don't get to the place that He is... "
04:31 I mean, these are the kinds of lies that are obvious
04:34 when you read this...
04:35 these are the kinds of lies that Satan is insinuating
04:38 but the way he does it is so subtle...
04:40 because Eve isn't... all of a sudden saying,
04:43 "What! that... how can he say that about God?"
04:46 It's not like she even knows
04:48 that God's character has been assaulted.
04:49 Yvonne: Yeah. James: It's so subtle.
04:51 Yvonne: It's interesting to me that Satan took...
04:55 basically took God's word because if you look at verse 22,
05:00 I know we're kind of getting off... but...
05:01 James: That verse is good... verse is good.
05:04 Yvonne: I was asking the Lord about this once
05:08 because it just did not connect to me
05:10 and the Lord... I'll explain what I got from...
05:13 "And the LORD God said,
05:14 Behold, the man is become as one of us,
05:17 to know good and evil:
05:18 and now, lest he put forth his hand,
05:20 and take also of the tree of life,
05:22 and eat, and live forever... Therefore... "
05:24 in other words God was telling them
05:26 they had to leave the garden but the Lord had said Himself
05:30 that... "that they would become as one of us
05:34 to know good and evil"
05:36 now, the question is... what is, "to know... "
05:39 that's the question and I asked the Lord that
05:43 and what He impressed me with was that
05:45 it's not that God... we're in competition
05:48 with God on any level
05:50 but God is not contaminated by evil... and we are...
05:55 so, by them... by them taking of that fruit,
06:00 they... they became familiar... intimately familiar...
06:05 he knew her... they became familiar...
06:09 connected to evil and that was what...
06:12 that was what happened here, not so much...
06:15 it wasn't that God was worried about them becoming like Him
06:18 in terms of what He knew... He's a creator of the universe
06:21 but it was that He did not... they were...
06:25 He did not want them to get contaminated by the evil
06:29 and the sin contaminated them, so it was not...
06:32 Satan just took God's words
06:35 and gave it just that little bitty twist.
06:38 James: Just a tweak... just a tweak...
06:40 just tweaked this a little bit, it was so subtle...
06:42 and another thing I really like about what you brought out is,
06:45 "Yes, God never wanted us to know good and evil"
06:48 even the way He knows it...
06:49 because, it has brought pain to His own heart.
06:52 Yvonne: Yes...
06:54 James: It has hurt Him to the utmost...
06:55 He never wanted us to experience that.
06:56 Yvonne: Hmmm...
06:58 James: So, Satan says,
06:59 "He doesn't want you to know good and evil... "
07:00 and Eve could have said,
07:02 "That's right, and I trust Him for that,
07:03 I trust that I don't need to know that... "
07:05 Yvonne: Right...
07:06 James: And we're the same way,
07:08 "God doesn't want me to have fun... "
07:09 no, He doesn't want you to have pleasure of sin for a season.
07:12 Yvonne: Right.
07:13 James: Just for a season, He doesn't want you to have
07:14 any kind of seasonal fun,
07:16 He wants you to have pleasure for evermore, Psalm 16 says,
07:18 but He doesn't want you to have pleasure for a season,
07:21 that ends in death. Yvonne: Right... right.
07:24 Ivor: This war on words, I think, is a very...
07:26 it's a really...
07:27 a statement that really brings it together for us
07:30 and the reason that... it really was a war on words,
07:33 you look at Genesis chapter 3, what is he doing?
07:36 He's taking God's words and manipulating it,
07:39 when he was in... when he met Jesus in the wilderness,
07:42 he was taking the word of God and twisting it to meet his...
07:46 what he wanted... and it's interesting
07:49 because if you look at the book of Isaiah chapter 14,
07:53 I just want us to turn there, very quickly,
07:55 Isaiah 14... I want you to notice what it says in verse 12,
08:01 we can read from verse 12 to verse 13.
08:06 James: Whoever gets there first, start reading.
08:10 Jason: "How art thou fallen from heaven,
08:12 O Lucifer, son of the morning!
08:13 how art thou cut down to the ground,
08:16 which didst weaken the nations!
08:19 For thou hast said in thine heart,
08:21 I will ascend into heaven,
08:23 I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
08:26 I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation
08:28 in the sides of the north... "
08:29 Ivor: Okay, so, Lucifer wanted to sit
08:32 on the mount of the congregation,
08:34 he wanted to sit on the sides of the north,
08:37 and I think we've gone over this before in the program
08:41 but "the sides of the north"
08:43 if you were to look in the sanctuary
08:45 the sides of the north
08:46 is where the Table of Shewbread is located
08:49 according to Exodus 26 verse 20,
08:52 the Table of Shewbread is on the side of the north,
08:55 on that side of north you have 12 loaves of bread
08:58 representing the people of God,
09:00 the congregation of God so when it says,
09:02 "Lucifer wanted to sit on the mount of the congregation
09:05 in the sides of the north... " this is in heaven,
09:06 He wanted to sit over the congregation of angels in heaven
09:11 now the Table of Shewbread represents the Word of God.
09:15 Lucifer wanted his word to be obeyed over God's word.
09:20 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
09:21 Ivor: This is what he was after,
09:22 "I will be like the Most High, I want you to obey me
09:26 as if you would obey the Most High"
09:28 and so when we see at the very end of time,
09:30 that... the Bible tells us
09:33 that Lucifer, himself, will appear as an angel of light
09:36 2nd Thessalonians talks about
09:39 "sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
09:43 like, ultimately...
09:45 that verse ultimately points to Satan himself
09:48 coming and appearing as Jesus Christ,
09:50 "my word over His word... " this is the deception
09:54 that the Bible is warning us... is coming...
09:57 that Satan himself... it's interesting because
10:01 we often... when we study the Bible and especially
10:05 having the understanding of the three angels' messages,
10:08 we often leave Satan out of the picture
10:12 when it comes to the end time,
10:13 we think that the "man of sin" is human, right?
10:18 But listen carefully,
10:19 the Head of the Papal System is to Satan...
10:27 what John the Baptist was to Jesus.
10:30 John the Baptist prepared the way... for the coming One...
10:35 in the very same way...
10:37 the "way" is being prepared by the little horn
10:41 for the ultimate appearing of Satan himself
10:43 which we understand as the overmastering delusion...
10:47 deception... and when that happens,
10:49 it's going to be, "Listen, oh, that's God speaking"
10:51 he will show himself that he is God
10:54 and so we see this... this pattern of deception
10:57 from the war in heaven that's what he was trying to do,
11:01 he was trying to sit on the sides of the north,
11:03 "my word over God's word... "
11:04 when it comes to Eve, "my word over God's word"
11:06 Jesus in the wilderness... "my word over God's word"
11:10 and at the very end of time, "my word over God's word. "
11:13 Yvonne: Wow! Jason: He's lost his mind.
11:17 James: The other reference I want us to look at
11:20 with this is... is... I don't want us to read it but
11:22 Ezekiel 28... one verse...
11:24 "You have defiled your sanctuaries
11:26 by the multitude of your iniquities,
11:27 by the iniquity of thy traffic... "
11:29 the things that he has been trafficking against God,
11:32 the things that he has been saying against God,
11:34 the words that he's been communicating against God,
11:36 and the context of Ezekiel 28 is this covering cherub...
11:41 the anointed one, this Lucifer...
11:43 it's talking about Lucifer in that context,
11:44 so I think it's really important...
11:46 what Ivor just brought out is really key because
11:48 the bottom line for our...
11:51 the basis of our protection is the Word of God
11:54 and this woman that's clothed in the sun
11:56 which represents Christ's righteousness
11:58 is also standing on the moon,
11:59 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path"
12:01 "a light unto my feet, and a lamp unto my path"
12:03 it's one of those two... Psalm 119:105...
12:06 Yvonne: "A light unto my feet, and a lamp unto my path. "
12:09 Jason: I can't help but wonder what would have happened
12:11 if Adam and Eve were together
12:13 and not separated... that very moment,
12:16 what would have happened if Adam and Eve were together...
12:19 would they have just been like,
12:21 "No, you can go somewhere with your lies... "
12:24 or would they have both caved then?
12:27 I can't wait to get to heaven to find out.
12:29 James: I don't have a Bible verse on that
12:31 but I know it is important for the man... not to be alone
12:35 and for the woman and the man to be together,
12:37 so, let's get back to Revelation chapter 12
12:39 and I just want us to look here because we're trying to sort out
12:43 why does John go to heaven all of a sudden,
12:47 in verses 7, 8 and 9... he's in heaven...
12:50 and he's talking about this war...
12:55 this conflict that began in heaven, now,
12:57 I think, one of the reasons why he does this is because
13:00 God is summarizing the whole great controversy
13:02 from beginning to end because He's going to end it right here,
13:05 and He wants us to know where it started and how it started.
13:07 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
13:08 James: And it's kind of like... I was talking with Bobby about
13:13 the conquering of the Canaan... the new... the promised land...
13:17 and Joshua... and how they went in...
13:19 and they went around Jericho seven times and boom!
13:22 It came down... God took it out...
13:24 and then when it came to Ai... Jericho was a big strong city...
13:27 when it came to Ai... Joshua's like...
13:30 "Oh, no problem...
13:31 send a few thousand... let's take it out... "
13:33 goes in there... completely routed...
13:36 36 died... they run back... and Joshua falls on his face
13:40 and he's like, "Lord, I can't believe he led us out here...
13:43 we're going to die... and then what about your great name,
13:46 what about you and your character?"
13:48 And the point that...
13:50 the conclusion that we're coming to
13:53 as we were talking about this, a little bit was...
13:55 we trust God for the big sins in our lives, the Jericho's...
14:00 but we don't always trust Him for the little ones,
14:02 we think we can deal with those,
14:04 "I can take care of that little thing"
14:05 but it's the little ones that keep bugging us
14:07 and they're just there... and they're there
14:09 and they're there... and they're there... you know...
14:11 and I think that is vital for us to understand
14:15 that sometimes we lose our dependence on God
14:19 when it comes to Him taking care of little things
14:22 that we think we have to take care of
14:23 and we don't stay focused on Him
14:27 in relation to everything... God has everything...
14:30 and so, when we get in Revelation chapter 12,
14:33 we need to recognize, "No one can take him out... "
14:36 no one can take out the devil but Michael...
14:40 and so what happens in the context of this...
14:43 "Michael prevails... "
14:45 that's a word that I think is really interesting
14:46 and then, in the very context of this,
14:49 it says in verse 9...
14:51 "And the great dragon was cast out,
14:52 that old serpent, called the Devil,
14:53 and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world;
14:55 he was cast out into the earth,
14:57 and his angels were cast out with him. "
14:58 Well, I remember,
15:01 Satan going to the presence of God in the book of Job,
15:05 the "casting out" here definitely, okay,
15:09 it definitely happened, let's say, in a physical sense
15:12 sometime before we even were aware of it,
15:15 he's cast out of heaven but in a psychological sense,
15:20 in a political sense,
15:22 Satan still has a little bit of something...
15:25 even with the rest of the universe,
15:28 he still dares to walk into the presence of God and say...
15:31 and God says, "What are you doing here?"
15:33 He says, "I come from the earth. "
15:34 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
15:35 James: And God points to Job
15:37 but really what God is doing is God...
15:38 because the whole book of Job is another "mini" of the dragon
15:41 leviathan is in the book of Job and Job is like... "Wh... "
15:43 and God's like,
15:45 "I'm the only one that can take care of Leviathan...
15:46 you can't take care of Leviathan"
15:48 and so, here, we see... I think, a final... if you will
15:52 casting out... of the dragon...
15:55 from the minds and the hearts and the sympathies
15:59 of the heavenly universe.
16:01 Yvonne: Oh, as opposed to
16:02 what happened in the very beginning?
16:04 James: Yes... Yvonne: Oh...
16:06 James: You see... and the reason why I say this is because
16:08 "the dragon was cast out, that old devil,
16:10 and the angels that were cast out into the earth,
16:12 and his angels were cast out with him... "
16:13 and verse 10... "And I heard a loud voice
16:16 saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,
16:18 and strength, and the kingdom of our God,
16:21 and the power of his Christ:
16:22 for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
16:25 which accused them before God day and night... "
16:28 and it goes on to say, verse 12,
16:30 "Therefore rejoice, you heavens, and you that dwell in them
16:33 but woe to the inhabitants of the earth
16:35 for the devil is come unto you, having great wrath,
16:38 because he knows he has but a short time. "
16:40 Now here's the deal... if you look at...
16:43 look up this verse for us, John 12:31...
16:45 and we'll get to that in just a second...
16:47 but if you look at this in the context of the war...
16:52 the conflict that's taking place,
16:54 the sympathies that... it says,
16:56 "Now I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,
16:58 'salvation is come... ' but on the earth...
17:00 there's still a problem... " Yvonne: Hmmm...
17:03 James: Something has happened
17:04 to change the whole circumstance of heaven,
17:08 now if this was... if this took place...
17:10 if these verses have their only fulfillment,
17:12 or their only application
17:14 to the time when Satan was cast out of heaven,
17:16 why would there be war on the earth?
17:17 Adam and Eve hadn't fallen yet, Adam and Eve were...
17:19 they were warned about him but they...
17:22 see, there's either something... there's another application here
17:24 and when you read these verses, Jason.
17:26 Ivor: James, let me just add there... that
17:28 not only had Adam and Eve not fallen yet,
17:30 but they weren't even created.
17:31 James: Yeah...
17:32 Ivor: So, "Woe unto them that dwell on the earth... "
17:34 this is pointing us to another time
17:37 because there's evidently people dwelling on the earth
17:41 when this fall happens so this is not...
17:44 in other words, yes, there was war in heaven,
17:46 he was cast out at the very beginning
17:48 but there's also a casting out
17:51 when there were people that were dwelling on the earth,
17:54 you see what I'm saying?
17:55 James: Yes... yeah... there's a casting out,
17:56 let's read John chapter 12,
17:58 I think I want to start with verse 29,
18:01 let's start there just to make sure I got the context.
18:04 Jason: You want me to go to 31?
18:07 James: Yeah, let's start with 29 and let's read it really quickly
18:10 start with 29 and yeah... and read through verse 32.
18:15 Jason: Okay, "The people therefore,
18:17 that stood by, and heard it... "
18:19 James: No, no, I'm sorry... verse 30...
18:21 Jason: Verse 30? James: No, no... verse 31.
18:22 Jason: Okay, verse 31,
18:24 "Now is the judgment of this world:
18:25 now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
18:28 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
18:31 will draw all men unto me. "
18:33 James: Okay... do you see the phrase there that's used?
18:36 "Cast out...
18:38 now shall the prince of the world be 'cast out... '
18:41 and then what am I going to do?
18:43 I'm going to start drawing people to me. "
18:45 See what has happened to the earth?
18:46 Why would He need to draw people to him?
18:49 Because they'd been separated from Him.
18:51 So, in this context,
18:54 Jesus Christ, here, is telling us about
18:56 a future prophecy... the prophecy includes His death,
19:00 because He says here, "And I, if I be lifted up... "
19:04 so that's the cross...
19:05 "I'm going to cast him out... if I be lifted up
19:09 and I'm going to draw people to me... "
19:10 If we just take that, those two verses...
19:12 John 12:31 and 32
19:15 and we put it right here in Revelation chapter 12...
19:17 they have an exact fit,
19:19 because what happens at the cross is,
19:21 Satan is finally cast out... "rejoice ye heavens... "
19:23 and yet... but what about the inhabitants of the earth?
19:26 And Jesus says,
19:27 "I've got to draw the inhabitants of the earth to me,
19:29 I've got to draw them to me. "
19:30 So right here... Revelation chapter 12
19:33 is recapping the whole history, now,
19:35 the reason why this is important is because
19:37 we have the whole history of the rebellion in heaven
19:40 from its beginning and then we have
19:42 the woman who brings forth a child
19:44 she's caught up to...
19:45 the dragon tries to destroy the child... she's caught up...
19:47 the child is caught up to heaven and to His God
19:49 and then we have an explanation of the cross,
19:52 here you've got the resurrection but you've got the cross.
19:56 Ivor: So, I'm always looking at ways to... like, juice it down
20:00 and step back and look at the big picture
20:02 and what I'm seeing here in Revelation 12
20:04 is that... in verses 1 through 6,
20:06 verses 7 onward... is like a recap of verses 1 through 6
20:12 because what's interesting is...
20:14 if you look at verse 3,
20:15 "there appeared another wonder in heaven;
20:17 and behold a great red dragon
20:19 having seven heads and ten horns,
20:20 with his crowns upon his head.
20:22 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven... "
20:25 and did what? "cast them to the earth. "
20:28 That's... that's the war in heaven...
20:31 right, that's the fall of Lucifer and his angels
20:34 from heaven... those angels... those...
20:36 the one third of the stars represent
20:37 one third of the angels,
20:39 so in chapter 12... verses 1 through 6
20:42 you have this like... shorter version of,
20:45 "Hey, this is all that happened"
20:47 right, but then seven... it's like it goes back again.
20:49 James: It repeats and enlarges.
20:51 Ivor: There was war in heaven... and enlarges
20:52 and takes us into more detail.
20:54 James: Yeah, because verses 1 through 6 include
20:57 the child being born and being caught up... but not the cross.
21:00 Ivor: Right... it includes the time, time and a half,
21:04 so when you read further down
21:06 you're seeing... you're seeing the time, time and a half again,
21:10 you're seeing the woman in the wilderness again, so God...
21:13 James: And you see Christ again.
21:14 Ivor: And you see Christ again
21:16 so it's almost as if God is saying,
21:17 "Okay guys, before we move to Revelation chapter 13,
21:21 I want to make sure... I'm going to tell you twice,
21:24 I want to make sure that you got...
21:26 you know where we are, so that, when we get into this,
21:30 you're not lost... you're not confused...
21:31 you have no confusion, you know what's coming next... "
21:34 so God says it and then He repeats it
21:37 and goes into more detail.
21:38 James: Hmmm... hmmm... Yvonne: Hmmm...
21:39 James: And if there's any place where God needs to repeat it
21:42 and say it again and make sure we got it clear,
21:44 this is the place...
21:45 now, I'm not talking about... this is the place...
21:46 like in the book of Revelation, I'm talking about...
21:48 this is the place... like the subject matter,
21:49 this is the most important subject matter we can talk about
21:52 we're talking about how this whole great controversy began,
21:55 we're talking about what it's about...
21:57 it's about God's character,
21:59 we're talking about how it is promulgated by words...
22:01 by slight misrepresentations, okay
22:04 about God, about His character...
22:07 which are continuing on and being promulgated by
22:10 majorly by religion even "Christian" religion,
22:13 it totally misrepresents the character of God.
22:15 I remember when I was coming out here once,
22:17 I was on my journey to 3ABN, I was in a rental car
22:21 and I was looking for a radio station,
22:23 you know in Southern Illinois, it's not hard to find
22:24 a Christian radio station, that's what I was looking for,
22:26 a Christian radio station... so, here...
22:28 unlike Oregon where I live, it's more secular...
22:30 I'm not looking for...
22:32 trying to find a Christian radio station over secular...
22:35 I'm trying to find the right Christian radio station,
22:37 you know, like... there are a lot of choices,
22:39 "All right, which one do I want?"
22:40 And I stopped
22:41 when I was listening to these two guys talk about
22:44 predestination... never heard that before,
22:47 I mean, I understood the whole concept
22:49 but I never heard two people on a radio talk show...
22:52 Christians... talking about it specifically,
22:54 in fact, I had a hard time believing that
22:56 people really believe that, like, I knew it was a doctrine,
22:58 okay, Calvinism, right, but, do people really believe that?
23:01 Yes, these guys really believed this,
23:02 and they were going on about predestination
23:05 and how God has created certain people to be saved
23:08 and God has created certain people to be lost
23:09 and there are certain people
23:10 who have no chance of ever being saved,
23:12 and there are other people that are saved
23:13 and they're never going to be lost,
23:15 "once saved... always saved... they're always going to be... "
23:16 and I was like... "Really? Really?"
23:18 And people were calling in and they were saying,
23:20 "Wait a minute, wait a minute... doesn't the Bible say here...
23:22 and doesn't the Bible say here...?"
23:23 "No, no, no... they were never saved that they turned from God,
23:25 they were never saved in the first place,
23:27 no, no, no, there's no possibility...
23:28 that person was always saved, he may have been a rebel...
23:30 but he was always saved... that's just the way it is... "
23:33 And I thought,
23:34 "You know, if you combined that idea
23:37 with the other idea that a lot of Christians believe
23:40 that hell is an eternally burning fire,
23:43 never ending... the two concepts together...
23:46 'God has created some people to burn in hell for all eternity'"
23:50 I'm like, "there's nothing that can misrepresent
23:54 the character of God more
23:56 than the combination of those two doctrines together. "
23:57 Yvonne: Yeah... yes.
23:59 James: And I thought, "God has been... "
24:00 and I think about this, "Has anyone ever said something
24:02 critical about you that was wrong?
24:06 Has anyone ever misrepresented you or falsified you?"
24:09 Maybe they've said,
24:11 "You're always late... you never get here on time... "
24:13 or something like that, I don't know...
24:15 All: Laughter...
24:17 James: No, seriously...
24:21 and you know how hard that is sometimes to bear, like,
24:24 "I know I'm late sometimes,
24:25 I know that's not a big deal I can... that's... yeah...
24:27 what I would expect... "
24:29 but when someone says something about you
24:32 that is bad and false... think about God...
24:35 think about His shoulders... He's been completely...
24:39 and He's so loving... He's such a...
24:41 He's just like the opposite of anything
24:42 if you can even imagine...
24:43 we can't even fathom what He's like and love...
24:45 and He's been completely... so, now what I do, whenever I...
24:49 whenever I experience that myself
24:51 where I feel like I've been misrepresented,
24:52 I just think about God...
24:54 I just think about His character,
24:55 I just think about... for 6,000 years
24:57 He's been completely misrepresented
24:59 in so many ways...
25:01 and He's borne through this
25:02 but finally God is doing something about it,
25:04 Revelation 12 is telling us
25:06 finally this testimony is being given,
25:08 "You want to know what God is like?
25:09 Look to Calvary"
25:11 see, God isn't casting out by might...
25:13 God is casting out by testimony,
25:15 He's standing up in court and He's giving His testimony
25:17 He is going to be on the witness stand,
25:19 the hour of His judgment is come
25:20 and He's going to make a statement,
25:21 and His statement is going to be,
25:23 "Here's what you've seen for 6,000 years
25:25 concerning this fallen angel, here's what I'm all about,
25:29 I'm all about saving you,
25:30 I'm all about giving my life for you,
25:32 I'm all about... " and finally as we see this...
25:35 finally people are drawn they're just drawn...
25:38 "I want to draw everyone to me through this revelation... "
25:40 it's a beautiful picture.
25:42 Yvonne: Wow...
25:44 Ivor: Again, if you look at Revelation chapters 1 through 11
25:46 what you really have there is just... like I said,
25:50 these little pieces... little snapshots...
25:52 just like if you were to open your eyes
25:54 just like a blink, you open and you close it again
25:56 little pictures... but in Revelation 12,
26:00 it's the first... fully detailed account
26:04 about the great controversy, the whole chapter,
26:07 think about it, from Genesis
26:09 all the way to Revelation chapter 1,
26:12 there is no detail... it's just pieces...
26:15 Jesus says, "I beheld Satan fall like lightening from heaven"
26:18 what else happened?
26:20 James: Yeah, how did that happen?
26:21 Ivor: Yeah, how did that happen? Ezekiel...
26:23 "You were the son of the morning,
26:26 you were cast out... you will be destroyed. "
26:29 Isaiah 14... "You wanted to be like the Most High"
26:32 nothing... but when we get to Revelation 12,
26:34 it's the first time that the veil is fully pulled back
26:38 from 12 onward... it's like, God is like,
26:41 "All right, I was saving the 'October' surprise,
26:47 I was 'saving' that this is the final revelation,
26:51 look this is what it is, look, here it is...
26:54 everything, your eyes are... "
26:55 He's revealing the evidence that shows us,
26:58 "this is what's been going on...
27:00 this is who Satan really is, this is how the war began
27:04 this is how it's going to end. " Yvonne: Hmmm...
27:06 James: And I just hope... I just pray and hope that
27:08 we and all of our Viewers can see this
27:10 we need to see God for who He really is
27:12 and the character of God for who He really is
27:14 and maybe there are people that have questions about this,
27:16 they want to ask some questions about some of these doctrines
27:19 and some of the ways that God has been misrepresented
27:21 and the way religion has come across,
27:23 so how can they get ahold of us?
27:24 Jason: They should send their e- mails to: sss@3abn. org
27:29 James: All right, sss@3abn. org
27:32 Yvonne: And there might be some people
27:33 who want to see this every day,
27:35 on the Parent Network... it's shown on Saturday evenings
27:39 and sometimes during the week,
27:41 but on Dare to Dream,
27:42 it's on every evening at 6:30 Central Time...
27:45 James: 6:30 p. m. Central Time, every day...
27:49 absolutely love that, praise God.
27:51 Yvonne: Amen...
27:52 James: We are going to continue our study in Revelation 12,
27:55 we're not done yet, we've got...
27:56 we're going to go into that second cycle.
27:57 It's going to be good, lots of good stuff.
27:59 Yvonne: Amen.