Participants: Ivor Myers (Host), James Rafferty (Host), Yvonne Lewis, Jason Bradley
Series Code: SISS
Program Code: SISS000056A
00:31 We are surrounded by beasts.
00:33 That's true.
00:35 We are surrounded by beasts.
00:36 That's true.
00:37 We got the dragon on the table,
00:39 we got the sea beast on the table,
00:40 and we got this new one from the land, right,
00:45 so, that's where we are in the book of Revelation.
00:48 In the book of Revelation, we are surrounded by the beasts
00:50 and this is a place where people fear to tread.
00:54 It is a challenging place to be, in fact, a lot of times,
00:58 when people read the book of Revelation,
01:00 this is all they're really focusing on,
01:02 we have learned that the book of Revelation
01:04 is much larger than the beasts.
01:06 In fact, the whole book is focused on the Lamb
01:10 rather than the beasts,
01:11 but the beasts are there and they need to be dealt with,
01:14 they need to be identified,
01:15 we need to understand why God put them here,
01:18 what is this prophetic scenario that He's outlining for us
01:22 so, we're going to be talking today
01:24 a little bit more about one of those beasts
01:27 that we touched on in the last Program
01:28 but we want to really nail it down,
01:30 it's going to be the land beast.
01:32 We're going to be talking about America in prophecy,
01:34 we're going to be looking at the characteristics
01:36 that we identified and go a little further with them
01:39 and understand how the rest of this prophecy fills out.
01:41 That's what we want to do.
01:43 Of course, we want to start with a word of prayer,
01:45 we're not going to be looking at any questions in this program
01:47 because we just want to get right into this prophecy,
01:49 and then we'll jump right in
01:51 so, Yvonne, would you like to pray for us?
01:53 Sure, "Father, we just thank you so very much
01:56 for the privilege of opening and studying
01:58 and learning from your Word, Lord,
02:00 we're just so grateful that you've given us your Word
02:02 so that we know how this is going to play out,
02:05 thank you Lord,
02:06 and now be with us, let your Spirit rule and reign,
02:09 we pray in Jesus' name, amen. "
02:11 All: "Amen. "
02:12 So, Revelation chapter 13...
02:15 the first half of the chapter verses 1 through 10
02:18 basically are a summary of history,
02:20 now, as part of that history, as we look back...
02:23 part of that history is going to be repeated
02:24 so we see some predictions about how the world is going to
02:28 "wonder after this beast. "
02:29 We've identified this Power as the Papacy
02:32 and the reason we did that
02:33 was because it connects with Daniel chapter 7
02:36 and we looked at all the characteristics
02:38 of those powers that went before...
02:39 Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome...
02:41 the characteristics of the lion, the bear, the leopard
02:45 and then the dragon and the terrible beast,
02:47 and how they all succeeded or gave their power to the Papacy,
02:53 the Papacy succeeded all of these powers
02:55 and then we identified the Papacy
02:57 as receiving this deadly wound in verse 3 of Revelation 13,
03:00 and then, it was specifically identified
03:04 as "going into captivity"
03:06 so God was very specific in the historic description
03:09 of how this Papacy would receive the deadly wound
03:12 and we looked at history,
03:13 and we found out that Berthier indeed took the Pope captive
03:16 in 1798 and he died in prison.
03:19 In this timeframe of this captivity... 1798...
03:23 we see in Revelation chapter 13 verse 11 another power
03:27 identified as a beast...
03:30 coming up out of the earth...
03:31 and this Power... this worldly Power...
03:35 this earthly kingdom is identified as a beast
03:38 in symbol... it actually means an earthly kingdom of power
03:42 according to Daniel 7:17 and 23.
03:45 The beast that you saw are kings,
03:47 the beast that you saw are kingdoms of the earth.
03:49 So this earthly kingdom is rising up about the same time
03:53 the Papacy is going into captivity
03:55 so, 1776... America was rising in prophecy
03:59 that was one of the identifying marks that we already looked at.
04:02 Hmmm... hmmm...
04:03 We looked at America rising up in the 18th century
04:06 while the Papacy was going down into captivity.
04:08 "So I saw another beast... "
04:11 and we identified this as a new kingdom.
04:12 The Papacy succeeded all these other kingdoms...
04:15 but this is a new kingdom.
04:16 Didn't have a... didn't come from a line of succession
04:19 and because it came up in the earth,
04:21 it came up in an area of the earth
04:23 that was sparsely populated.
04:25 The seas represent peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues,
04:28 the earth... a sparsely populated region
04:31 and so, another beast, a new power coming up
04:34 at a time the Papacy is going down
04:36 and coming up in a sparsely populated region of the earth.
04:39 That's what Revelation 13:11 is telling us
04:41 and then it goes on to say, "And I beheld another beast
04:44 coming up out of the earth;
04:46 and he had two horns like a lamb... "
04:48 this is a lamb-like power,
04:50 and we identified the lamb-like principles of Christ.
04:54 A Christian nation... a nation based on Christian principles...
04:58 two horns...
04:59 so the two horns that represent two aspects of this nation,
05:03 religious freedom...
05:05 religious liberty and political freedom...
05:08 civil liberties...
05:09 so we see the two horns representing
05:12 the two aspects of this Christian nation
05:15 that are incorporated into its Constitution
05:18 and into its governing powers,
05:22 and we see it also as a Christian nation
05:25 in the way that it conducts itself in relation to religion.
05:30 It allows for freedom of religion,
05:32 it allows for civil freedoms, it's not a monarchy,
05:35 it's not reigned by a king or queen.
05:38 So, five characteristics so far,
05:40 did you catch them all?
05:43 Five characteristics so far,
05:45 it's a power that rises when the Papacy is going down,
05:47 it's a new power, it's a power that comes from
05:50 a sparsely populated place in the earth,
05:51 it's a Christian nation
05:53 and it has these lamb-like principles
05:55 in its civil government as well as in its Christianity,
05:58 so it's five so far.
06:00 Can you say that one more time?
06:01 Okay, it's a new nation,
06:03 it comes in a sparsely-populated place of the earth,
06:06 it comes up around the time the Papacy is going down,
06:10 it's a Christian nation... lamb-like...
06:14 lamb-like horns...
06:15 and the principles of Christianity
06:17 are incorporated into its civil power
06:19 as well as its religious power.
06:22 So, it offers religious freedom
06:24 and civil freedoms... civil liberties...
06:27 and then... go ahead.
06:28 We remember as well that this nation was basically...
06:33 as we look back in Revelation chapter 12
06:36 that when the earth opened up her mouth,
06:39 the nation was a place
06:43 where Christians who were being persecuted,
06:45 could flee for religious freedom.
06:47 Hmmm... Hmmm.
06:49 So, that again points to
06:52 this beast having the horns like a lamb.
06:55 A Christian nation... a place where people could come
06:58 and exercise their religion freely
07:01 but again, we see that... as it follows up...
07:03 it spake as a dragon... it's another identifying mark
07:08 in that, you look at the principles espoused
07:11 but the reality of what
07:14 is taking place in America at that time,
07:17 so, while they were giving freedom of religion,
07:20 you were also seeing religious persecution
07:23 by some of the very people who were like,
07:26 "Yeah, we want religious freedom. "
07:27 Yvonne: Hmmm hmmm...
07:29 Ivor: So you got these underlying principles...
07:31 looks like a lamb... but speaks...
07:36 "Oh Man! is that really
07:38 following the principles that it espoused?"
07:42 So, anyway.
07:44 James: And I think that's a really good point Ivor,
07:46 because... for our listeners...
07:48 sometimes when you look at the history of America,
07:50 you think, "Well, how can you say that's a Christian nation,
07:52 how can you say they have all those freedoms?
07:54 Well, here, the identifying characteristic here is
07:57 also, that it speaks like a dragon.
07:58 Hmmm... hmmm... Hmmm...
08:00 And so you have this mixture of the two that...
08:02 that I think is going to tilt toward the dragon more and more
08:05 as time goes on and we're seeing that...
08:07 we're seeing that.
08:09 So, that's why it says,
08:10 "first of all, it looks like a lamb
08:11 and then second of all, it speaks like a dragon...
08:13 so we're moving in that direction
08:16 and then it says, in verse 12,
08:18 Jason, can you read that for us, Revelation 13:12?
08:21 Sure. "And he exerciseth
08:23 all the power of the first beast before him,
08:25 and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein
08:28 to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. "
08:31 Okay, now, this is a characteristic
08:34 that we didn't really look at yesterday
08:37 and that's why I really thought it would be good for us
08:39 during our last program
08:40 and that's why I really thought it would be good for us
08:41 to follow up with this and that is...
08:45 is that... this power now is identified
08:48 as being able to cause the earth...
08:51 it says here, "it causes them that dwell on the earth
08:56 to worship the first beast. "
08:57 You know what that means?
08:59 That means, this power has to have
09:01 world-wide dominion...
09:04 Hmmm... Hmmm.
09:05 It has to be a power that you might say
09:07 what we would call today, it has to be a "super power... "
09:10 a super power.
09:11 Now, what's really interesting to me about Bible prophecy...
09:14 and I want to pause here for just a second,
09:16 this book of Revelation was written,
09:19 2,000 years ago...
09:21 Daniel's prophecy is even longer
09:25 and yet it is laying out for us point by point
09:30 the very characteristics of the "powers that be" today.
09:33 The major players...
09:35 the end-time players of Bible Prophecy
09:38 are being identified in Revelation chapter 13,
09:40 the Papacy and the United States
09:43 and when you look at the world today,
09:45 even though we're confused, perhaps, about Islam...
09:47 or confused, perhaps, about Russia,
09:50 former USSR or China,
09:52 when you look at the world today,
09:54 these powers are coming to the top,
09:57 they are coming to the top,
09:58 and it's not a surprise to us.
10:01 In 1984 when I accepted Christ as my personal Savior,
10:07 I was raised Catholic,
10:09 I was raised believing in God... going to church every Sunday
10:12 I was raised in that kind of environment
10:15 but I didn't really understand the Bible...
10:18 of Christ as my personal Savior
10:19 and when I started studying the Bible,
10:22 studying Bible prophecy with these Adventists,
10:24 and they started telling me about this idea
10:27 that, the Papacy... the Papacy and the United States
10:30 in 1984... the dominant power in the world
10:34 was not the United States,
10:36 there was a Cold War going on
10:38 and the dominant power in the world...
10:40 the power that seemed to be encircling the globe
10:42 was the USSR... do you remember the USSR?
10:45 Jason, you remember the USSR, do you remember the USSR?
10:48 Jason: I remember it... I remember it.
10:50 James: And so, for me, it was a test of faith
10:54 I had to accept by faith
10:55 the interpretation of Revelation 13
10:57 that these Adventists were throwing at me,
10:58 and the reason why I did it was because
11:00 Daniel was so clear...
11:02 the outline of prophecy preceding this was so clear,
11:05 it was like, "Well, if all this was right,
11:07 the rest must be right too. "
11:09 But it was still an exercise of faith,
11:11 "the substance of things hoped for,
11:12 the evidence of things not seen"
11:13 because when I looked at the world,
11:15 it just wasn't happening.
11:16 But now, now... today... the USSR goes down in 1989
11:23 and all of a sudden, one power looms...
11:25 now that power is still at odds, you understand,
11:27 back then, it was still at odds with the Papacy,
11:30 they weren't really connecting,
11:31 you know, when Ronald Reagan was President,
11:33 it was... he wanted an ambassador to the Vatican,
11:36 it was illegal,
11:38 the United States had never had an ambassador to the Vatican
11:41 they never recognized them as a country...
11:43 as a state... it was illegal...
11:44 they had to change the laws
11:46 to get an ambassador to the Vatican,
11:48 that's how... that's how... separated
11:50 the United States and the Papacy were back then
11:53 because in the early history,
11:55 Protestant America was very much against Catholics,
12:00 very much against Catholics.
12:01 So now you've got this unity taking place,
12:03 the Pope comes and he addresses Congress...
12:05 three Presidents go to the funeral of John Paul the 2nd.
12:08 This is what we're talking about in the book of Revelation,
12:12 Revelation 13 is showing us the development of a union
12:15 because this Power... in Revelation 13 verse 12,
12:18 it says, "this power... " let's read it again...
12:20 "And he exercises all the power of the first beast... "
12:22 that's the Papacy...
12:24 "and causes the earth and them that dwell therein
12:25 to worship the first beast. "
12:26 Whoa... so now you have a unity that's taking place,
12:30 you have one power... earthly power... America...
12:33 actually causing the world...
12:36 the entire world to worship the first beast
12:38 and then we get into this
12:40 development of the Mark of the Beast
12:41 but the first I want us to look at is
12:42 first of all, there has to be a worldwide dominant power,
12:45 right, what else does it have to have?
12:48 It has to have worldwide dominance on a military level,
12:52 but it also... it also has to have
12:55 another kind of worldwide dominance
12:57 let's continue reading these verses,
12:59 Yvonne, would you read for us...
13:01 Ivor: I was going to say,
13:03 I think that this worldwide dominance
13:06 is also going to include religious dominance
13:09 because it forces the whole world to do what?
13:12 to worship...
13:13 so, even though, again,
13:16 we're looking at this different religious conflicts
13:19 in the world today and it looks like,
13:21 "Wow! this really is boiling down to a religion
13:24 in a lot of different ways but, the Bible prophecies
13:28 that, in the end, the religion of this Country
13:33 is going to basically flood the whole world
13:37 which is not a good thing.
13:39 as we will see... as we go into prophecy because
13:42 the religion that they're pushing
13:44 is leading to the worship of the first beast...
13:50 okay, which is different from the worship of the Lamb.
13:53 So, just an important point to keep in mind.
13:57 James: All right, let's pick up with verse 13
14:01 Yvonne, would you like to read 13 and onward for us?
14:05 Yvonne: Sure, "He performs great signs,
14:07 so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth
14:11 in the sight of men,
14:12 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs
14:15 which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast;
14:18 telling those who dwell on the earth,
14:20 to make an image to the beast
14:22 who was wounded by the sword, and lived.
14:25 He was granted power
14:26 to give breath to the image of the beast,
14:28 that the image of the beast should both speak
14:30 and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast
14:34 to be killed,
14:35 he causes all, both small and great,
14:38 rich and poor, free and slave,
14:40 to receive a mark on their right hand,
14:42 or on their foreheads:
14:44 And that no one may buy or sell, except one who has the mark,
14:48 or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
14:51 Here is wisdom,
14:52 Let him who has understanding
14:54 calculate the number of the beast:
14:56 for it is the number of a man; his number is 666."
15:00 James: Hmmm... I remember. Yvonne: It's deep isn't it?
15:04 James: Yeah, I remember when I was a kid... I mean, younger,
15:07 "Let's go... let's study Revelation 13...
15:10 666... what is it?"
15:11 You know, curiosity...
15:13 and I think God draws us to this for that purpose
15:16 through that means to awaken our minds...
15:18 to understand some of these principles.
15:21 One of the characteristics that we see here
15:24 and I don't know if you caught it is...
15:26 "no man can buy or sell. "
15:28 Yvonne: Yeah.
15:29 James: It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor.
15:31 Yvonne: That's right, years ago, I used to think,
15:33 "How could that happen, because how could you stop someone
15:38 from buying or selling?" Ah ha... yellow card...
15:42 if they shut that card down, you can't... you can't function.
15:48 You know, your debit card that accesses your bank
15:52 and we are moving to a cashless society
15:56 because I never... ask Jason, I never have cash on me, ever...
16:00 because we don't carry cash anymore
16:04 and so, whereas... like you James,
16:08 years ago, even though I'm much older than you...
16:11 but years ago, I used to wonder "You know how...?"
16:14 James: You don't look like it.
16:16 Yvonne: Awww... see that's why I love you guys, see... I know
16:19 no points... but no... but seriously...
16:23 I wondered how could we get to a place where...
16:27 where that could be enforced? James: I did too.
16:30 Yvonne: And now I see it's... it's coming...
16:33 Yvonne: It is... it's coming before our very eyes.
16:36 James: My son recently got his car broken into,
16:38 he came home hungry, just off work...
16:41 all day long, went into the house to eat
16:44 locked his car up, went back out...
16:46 a friend drove by... he said, "Hey, your trunk's open... "
16:49 went back out... someone had broken into the car,
16:51 stole his wallet, his wallet was stolen there,
16:53 all his identification, his bank card,
16:55 his social security card, driver's license...
16:58 so what's the situation right now...
17:00 well, they started accessing his accounts,
17:02 they started setting up false credit cards
17:05 moving money out... all kinds of...
17:07 so we had to shut everything down
17:08 but he has no money... he has no way of...
17:11 so I have to work with him to get him cash
17:15 because he has no way of accessing any of that
17:19 because all his ID is gone,
17:21 I mean, these guys were so on this,
17:23 they went to Target with his card
17:25 bought $300 worth of stuff and then they would deny it
17:29 because his card was shut down,
17:30 they went back... they called the bank,
17:33 they said, "I found my card"
17:34 went back to Target the next day...
17:36 put 400 bucks on the card and it went right through.
17:38 Yvonne: Wow!
17:40 James: That's what... how they're working it...
17:41 so we had to shut down everything
17:43 so, he doesn't have any cash,
17:45 he goes to the bank, he doesn't have any ID
17:48 no way of doing anything... or proving anything
17:51 he lost his identity and so he's stuck.
17:56 He can't put gas in his car, he can't do anything,
17:58 so you're right, it's just...
18:01 and here's the deal... the characteristic is
18:03 this power has to have worldwide economic control
18:09 so, what is the power in the world today
18:12 that has economic dominance... economic...
18:14 see that's what we're looking at right here
18:17 so these are two added characteristics
18:19 that tell us
18:20 that this has got to be the United States of America.
18:23 You've got all of the history there that fits perfectly
18:25 but then you've got a power
18:26 that's coming to the top economically
18:27 and you've got another power that's coming to the top
18:29 that's connected with the Papacy that's coming to the top
18:32 and has the military might to enforce this...
18:36 they've got to have military might
18:38 and they've got to have economic might
18:39 and so, yeah, we can get confused and we think,
18:42 "Well no... what about China? What about... you know... "
18:44 that's true... these guys... but in the long run
18:48 stick to the Bible,
18:49 stick to what Bible Prophecy tells us...
18:51 because when you look at the United States,
18:53 the United States has done a major...
18:56 an incredible job of holding on to its resources...
19:00 depleting the resources of other nations
19:02 and allowing "self" to have reserves
19:05 that far surpass any other nation
19:07 and that's what is going to take it... right on through
19:09 I think when you look at this prophecy,
19:11 right on through to the very end.
19:12 We're going to see those hold it out.
19:14 Ivor: I think there's another important thing
19:17 for us to focus on as we look at this description
19:20 because... and we mentioned this in the previous program
19:23 but the lamb-like beast...
19:27 horns of a lamb... speaks as a dragon
19:29 it represents... it represents America as a nation
19:33 but it even gets more specific
19:35 and it actually represents Protestantism
19:38 okay, in other words, it is... it is Protestantism
19:44 what we call "Apostate Protestantism"
19:47 that actually speaks like a lamb
19:50 but does what? Acts like a dragon
19:53 and so, we look at what's going on today in America, right
19:57 you've got the Religious Right and you've got...
20:00 the... what they call the Liberal Left...
20:04 and it seems like there's this war of culture
20:08 right, you know, abortion, same-sex marriage...
20:11 it seems like they are just pushing... as it were
20:15 against Christianity...
20:16 and "we don't want Christianity" but this is so key
20:20 because, you see, part of the reason,
20:24 in fact this... I'm going to say that the "Left" exists
20:28 I should say this, "the anti-Christian sentiment
20:34 in America exists
20:35 because of the Christian element in America. "
20:38 Yvonne: Hmmm... explain it... unpack it.
20:40 Ivor: Okay, let me unpack it,
20:41 so, when the world looks at Christ,
20:44 they want to see something that looks like a lamb
20:48 and acts like a lamb.
20:51 James: Speaks like a lamb. Ivor: Speaks like a lamb
20:53 but when they look at today's Christianity,
20:57 and they see hypocrisy, what do they usually say?
21:02 "Well, if that's what a Christian is,
21:03 then I don't want anything to do with it"
21:05 right, and that's the biggest... biggest argument...
21:08 Christians that just... they act like worldlings...
21:11 whatever... they're against abortion
21:14 but they don't mind doing a whole bunch of other things,
21:17 do you see what I'm saying?
21:18 They don't mind not helping... we don't want to help, you know,
21:20 "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps... "
21:23 all that whole philosophy
21:24 so, we have this culture war going on,
21:27 we see the liberal element in America
21:31 looking like it's gaining the ascendency
21:33 but the Bible tells us... and I mean,
21:36 this is just so amazing
21:37 because I know in the last five... six years,
21:41 I've looked at the anti-Christian element
21:44 in this Nation and I'm going,
21:45 "Man! I know what the prophecy says
21:48 but it just looks like we're getting swallowed up, Man!
21:53 This is... and... and... "
21:54 so you have this thought that
21:57 "Man! Christianity is just going down,
21:59 people are leaving the church, blah, blah, blah... "
22:01 but guess what? As you look at what's going on,
22:05 as you look at societies,
22:06 you look at this backlash against
22:09 the liberal element in America,
22:12 like, I'm just blown away like...
22:14 "What, where did this come from?"
22:16 "Oh yeah, it came from the Bible... "
22:17 right, so, when you see this
22:19 "horns of a lamb... speak as a dragon... "
22:21 and you realize, this is speaking about a Christianity
22:25 that professes to serve Christ but it's acting like a dragon
22:30 it's speaking like a dragon and here's the thing,
22:33 and it talks about making an image to the beast,
22:36 okay, the beast... the first beast... what was it?
22:39 It was a Church and a State together...
22:42 it was an entity that believed in Church-State...
22:46 the Church and State should be united
22:48 and those who do not agree with the church,
22:51 should have civil penalties...
22:54 they should not have the same civil rights.
22:57 So, what do you see happening today?
22:59 You see the Christian element in America
23:03 seeking to turn this nation back to God
23:07 through civil authority
23:09 so "we got to get our own judges in...
23:11 we've got to get our own people into office
23:15 so, that way... we can legislate morality"
23:18 and this is what you find going on in Revelation 13,
23:22 you see this trend of...
23:24 "No, no, no... " you hear people arguing,
23:25 "there is no such thing as separation of Church and State,
23:27 I mean... no, no, no...
23:29 if we want this Nation to be a righteous Nation
23:31 we've got to turn this Nation back to God... "
23:33 and, in a sense, yes,
23:35 we do want to turn the nation back to God... but guess what?
23:37 The way to turn this Nation back to God
23:39 is through the Word of God, not through legislative...
23:43 not through forcing... not through dictating...
23:46 "this is what righteousness is"
23:48 but God has commissioned us to preach the gospel
23:51 right, and so, when you see this element...
23:54 because the dragon uses force,
23:56 the dragon is always about force,
23:58 so when you see this lamb-like beast
24:01 wanting to use the Government,
24:04 wanting to use force to back up its claims,
24:10 this is what you see happening in Revelation 13.
24:12 So, Revelation 13 is actually...
24:15 if you read Revelation 13 and the Right...
24:16 you can look at what's going on the in the world today and go,
24:18 "Whoa, this is Revelation 13 being fulfilled... "
24:21 and just in case you thought
24:23 the Liberal element was going to overtake this Country,
24:29 no... you know... both are being deceived by the enemy of God.
24:33 Yvonne: That's what I see too.
24:35 Ivor: Both are being deceived by the enemy of God
24:38 but one is... it's like... the devil has two masks...
24:41 and both masks... he puts on...
24:44 in order to really, in essence,
24:47 draw people away from God.
24:48 Yvonne: That's right.
24:49 Ivor: So either, "Hey, Man! if that's what a Christian is...
24:51 I don't want anything to do with it"
24:52 or, "You guys! You don't believe in God...
24:56 you don't believe in the Bible and because of that,
24:58 God's going to burn you up forever and ever and ever
25:00 and ever and ever because He loves you... "
25:01 Yvonne: You go... "What?"
25:03 Ivor: "Wait a minute... wait a minute... wait a minute,
25:05 this is a God of love who burns people forever and ever
25:07 and ever and ever so... "
25:08 you know... and so you have this confusion,
25:11 you have this confusion and this is what's going on,
25:14 people are being polarized and you see that polarization
25:18 happening... they're either going for one deception
25:21 or the other... or they're like,
25:23 "I like this deception better than that deception"
25:25 but it's both deception...
25:27 Yvonne: And as Danny said,
25:28 "The devil doesn't care which side of the boat you fall out on
25:30 as long as you fall out. "
25:32 Ivor: Exactly.
25:33 Yvonne: And I think that it... it's what we see...
25:36 it's what we see in the news every day.
25:38 Ivor: Yeah.
25:39 Yvonne: This polarization...
25:41 this thing where you're on this side or this side...
25:44 Ivor: And so, we're told that
25:46 this side will win out in the end,
25:48 right, and when it wins out in the end, guess what?
25:52 I mean, you know, "It looks Christian...
25:56 but in fact it speaks as a dragon. "
26:00 Jason: People want to pull God out of everything
26:03 and then wonder why we have so many problems today.
26:07 James: This is a good point
26:09 and I really want us to look at this,
26:11 Revelation 13 is where we are, Romans 13 is another chapter
26:14 that would really help us with
26:16 the discussion we're having right now,
26:17 Romans 13 tells us the balance with Government and Civil Law
26:24 in relation to religion
26:25 now, Romans 13 is written by Paul when Nero is ruling
26:30 he's the "President" in office
26:35 and he outlines for us here,
26:39 and I'm just going to give a quick overview of this chapter,
26:41 the outline is for us here... a good balance in relation to
26:44 laws that should be followed in relation to Government
26:49 that don't contradict religious freedom
26:53 and the laws that have to be enacted are summarized
26:56 in Romans chapter 13 and verses 9 and 10.
27:01 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm...
27:03 James: Jason... I'll read it because I'm there...
27:05 you're not there yet, okay, "For this... " Romans 13:9
27:08 "that thou shalt not commit adultery,
27:11 Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
27:12 Thou shalt not bear false witness,
27:14 and thou shalt not covet;
27:15 and if there be any other commandment,
27:17 it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely,
27:18 Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. "
27:20 Now we only have a few seconds left
27:22 so I just want to just make this point
27:24 and we can build on it in our next time together,
27:26 Paul here is talking about
27:29 how we should relate to Government and its laws
27:32 and he quotes from the commandments of God
27:34 but he never quotes from the first four
27:36 and then he says, "If there's any other commandment,
27:41 it is briefly comprehended in this...
27:43 'thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself... '"
27:44 which again, only allows us to relate to the last six
27:48 but not the first four.
27:49 We're going to stop right there because we're out of time
27:51 but we're going to pick this up because this is a gem... gem...
27:55 that we need to look at in relation to Revelation 13.
27:57 All right, so we'll pick up right here when we come back.
27:59 Yvonne: Great.