Participants:
Series Code: TCR
Program Code: TCR180011B
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00:03 Welcome back,
00:04 we had been exploring theistic evolution 00:08 and the issues with that. 00:09 And now we're going to go 00:11 just a little bit deeper into some alternatives. 00:14 And we have a special guest. 00:15 Tim, would you like to introduce him? 00:17 That's right. This is Dr. Jim Gibson. 00:19 Dr. Gibson is the director 00:21 of the Geoscience Research Institute. 00:23 Your boss. 00:25 My boss, so I have to be on my best behavior. 00:27 Yes, you do. 00:28 And so as you said, you know, 00:31 we've been looking at theistic evolution. 00:34 But is that really the only alternative out there 00:40 that we see among Christians or among other people? 00:43 What precisely is up with that? 00:49 Obviously, 00:50 we have things like materialistic Darwinism, 00:57 biblical creation. 00:58 Those can be considered to be 00:59 sort of opposite ends of the spectrum, I guess. 01:02 Theistic evolution would say, oh, no, with it, 01:05 with a happy compromise in the middle. 01:08 But what other things might be on that spectrum? 01:10 That's why we have Dr. Gibson here 01:12 to help us explore at least one, 01:14 possibly two other alternatives. 01:17 So welcome, Dr. Gibson. Hi, Dr. Gibson. 01:21 Thank you. 01:23 And so let me ask you this. 01:26 If it's not theistic evolution, 01:27 if it's not materialistic Darwinism, 01:29 if it's not biblical creation, 01:32 what else might a person believe? 01:36 Well, there are several alternatives. 01:37 But I think one of the most interesting ones is a theory 01:41 that is really based on the fossil record. 01:44 The fossils are based... 01:46 If the fossils occur in layers in the rocks in a sequence, 01:51 and there's one theory that says, 01:54 well, that sequence is the sequence 01:57 in which God created them on this world. 02:00 So we could call it progressive creation. 02:03 Okay, so then the idea would be 02:07 okay, you go down to the bottom of those layers of rock 02:10 that have fossils in them, 02:12 and you see things like maybe something like fish down there, 02:16 and you don't see giraffes. 02:19 So the idea would be, "Okay, God created all kinds of fish, 02:23 and then He stopped creating, and then what some eons later, 02:28 He created some more things." 02:32 Yes, yes, that's the basic idea. 02:35 And it incorporates both these, the discreet act of creation 02:40 along with some evolutionary ideas. 02:44 So in the fossil record, 02:46 if you find the sudden abrupt appearance 02:50 of some new kind of fossil, 02:52 you explain that by saying, 02:54 "Well, that must be a new creation." 02:57 If you see a kind of a graduated series 03:00 of fossils, 03:02 you would say, "Well, that must be 03:03 where God guided evolution for a while." 03:06 So God's alternating between these creation 03:09 and evolutionary episodes. 03:11 That's what I understand the meaning 03:13 by progressive creation. 03:14 So then, because of these fossils, obviously, 03:19 you would have things dying 03:21 because fossils are made from dead things, right? 03:26 Yes. Yeah, so... 03:29 It introduces a theological problem. 03:33 There are problems with a theory 03:35 that are theological problems, 03:37 there's problems with the science, 03:40 and there's problems with the biblical standard. 03:44 Well, let's look at the science first. 03:47 Okay. Okay, the science. 03:50 Well, what is the scientific evidence 03:52 that God created in this pattern? 03:56 There isn't any. 03:57 It's entirely made up. 04:00 So you can't really call this a scientific theory at all. 04:06 In fact, science tries to explain things 04:10 without appealing to God's action. 04:13 So the minute you put God in there 04:15 saying that God created and God guided evolution, 04:19 you have gone 04:20 from what most people want to call science 04:24 to kind of a philosophical interpretation, 04:28 a kind of a religious kind of an idea. 04:31 And I guess that if you are a scientist 04:33 you would say, "Okay, 04:35 with the biblical creation, 04:37 you have one big miracle, 04:39 whereas with this progressive creation, 04:42 you have many miracles that you have to have." 04:47 So that would be probably very problematic, 04:49 I would imagine, to somebody 04:51 who didn't like to have too many miracles going on. 04:56 Well, and not only that, 04:57 how would you test such an idea? 05:00 There isn't any way to test that idea? 05:02 It's not a scientific idea at all. 05:03 Does it make any predictions? If you want to get in, but... 05:08 No, I can't imagine what it would predict. 05:10 I mean, suppose I want to explain 05:12 the fossil record in a different way, 05:14 instead of saying God created in this sequence, 05:18 let's say God arranged the fossils in that sequence 05:21 during the flood. 05:23 That's just the way the flood put them. 05:25 That isn't scientific either, 05:27 but it's just as scientific as to say 05:29 He created in that order. 05:31 It's just made up. 05:34 And does the sequence of the fossils 05:37 match in some way, 05:39 things like the days of creation 05:41 or something like that? 05:43 Well, that's a biblical problem. 05:45 Know that flowering plants occur early 05:49 in the creation week, 05:51 perhaps among the first things created on day three. 05:54 In the fossil record, 05:56 you don't see any flowering plants 05:57 until a lot of layers have accumulated 06:01 that have marine animals, and terrestrial animals, 06:04 and birds, and fish, all kinds of things. 06:08 So they just... It just doesn't match. 06:11 So biblically, it doesn't work, scientifically it doesn't work, 06:15 theologically, it's very problematic 06:19 because it incorporates the idea of death, 06:23 and evil, and suffering, and violence 06:26 all occurring before humans ever appeared 06:30 in the fossil record. 06:32 And why would that be a problem? 06:35 Well, if Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sin 06:41 by dying in our place, 06:43 as the Bible pretty clearly teaches, 06:47 then that theory just makes it pointless, 06:51 just makes it pointless. 06:52 What was Jesus doing here on the cross? 06:54 Well, because in other words, what you're saying is that 06:57 if you're going by the fossil record, 06:59 there's a death and destruction 07:03 before sin, before man... 07:07 Or committed sin. 07:10 So death doesn't come from sin at all, 07:12 it's just part of the order that God intended. 07:15 So the way I see it, Jim, is that... 07:17 It is not just death, 07:20 it's not just death, 07:21 it's also violence and suffering. 07:24 Yes. 07:26 So the way I see it is 07:27 that you just have to pretty much throw out all of the Bible 07:32 or a good portion of the Bible, 07:34 and including the plan of salvation 07:36 in order to believe this progressive creationism. 07:42 Yeah, it's basically a make it up 07:44 as you go along kind of theory. 07:46 So then, what you're saying, 07:49 it seems to me as that 07:50 something like progressive creation 07:52 really has the same fundamental problems 07:55 that theistic evolution has, 07:57 but possibly even more 08:00 because it claims 08:02 to have these kind of arbitrary interventions 08:06 by God every now and again. 08:10 Yeah, it solves the problem of theistic evolution 08:13 in the fact that it provides a mechanism 08:16 for unusual things to happen. 08:19 But it does so at the expense of God's character 08:23 because it brings in a creator, who is, as one person said, 08:27 He creates and then destroys, and then He creates, 08:29 and then He destroys, and then He creates 08:31 and then He destroys over and over again. 08:34 Now, what kind of a God is that? 08:36 Well, I guess we'd have to be worrying 08:38 that He might be doing some more destroying 08:40 in the near future instead of coming back 08:42 and saving us, doing a new creation. 08:48 That seemed more problematic. 08:52 Well, in the fossil record, 08:54 if the flowering plants don't show up 08:57 until the deposits of the animals in this, 09:01 what were they eating? 09:03 Well, yeah, that would be a major problem. 09:05 I know that you do find 09:08 in the fossil record some plants, 09:10 but not necessarily the flowering plants 09:12 with organisms that might have eaten them. 09:15 So there are probably solutions to these problems. 09:18 It's just that 09:19 you have the flowering plants showing up much later 09:25 in the fossil sequence 09:28 than you do in the sequence of creation days. 09:31 So in other words, this isn't biblical at all. 09:34 It's not going off the biblical account. 09:37 It's simply divorced from the Bible completely. 09:41 You're making up your own religion as you go along. 09:45 Well, it's also divorced from science. 09:47 Yeah. 09:49 Except for the fact 09:50 that we do observe a sequence in the fossil record, 09:52 but the explanation for that sequence is just made up. 09:57 Well, thank you so much for helping us 09:59 explore progressive creation, Dr. Gibson. 10:02 It's been a pleasure, I appreciate your insights. 10:05 Bye-bye. My pleasure. 10:08 You know, Dr. Gibson really sort of bought out 10:11 what to me is a fundamental problem 10:14 with many of these ideas. 10:17 They are neither biblical nor scientific, 10:23 and certainly not scientific 10:24 in the materialistic understanding of things. 10:28 And, you know, the very people who... 10:30 And I know you've been criticized 10:32 as I've been criticized for having faith 10:35 in the biblical account of creation. 10:38 To me, it takes more faith to think, 10:41 look at what they're saying, plus, suddenly, the whole... 10:48 God's whole character, 10:50 everything that I want to believe 10:52 about God is completely changed. 10:53 Exactly. 10:55 It turns God into some kind of monster 10:57 and the creator at the same time 10:59 because He's sort of creating and destroying, 11:02 and creating and destroying. 11:04 And, yeah, I don't know, 11:07 is that a God that I would want to worship? 11:09 And how should I live my life in response to, 11:13 to something like that? 11:14 God might decide to do a new creation, 11:15 and I'll be wiped off the face of the earth 11:18 as a result of that. 11:19 How much more attractive the God of the Bible is? 11:25 You know, the God who not only created us, 11:30 and everything else, 11:31 but the God who came to save us 11:35 and has promised a new creation, 11:38 something that we can have faith in 11:40 because we have seen 11:43 that He can create in the first place, 11:45 and we've learned. 11:47 And we've certainly seen that 11:48 He can recreate when you see conversion started. 11:50 And we've learned, 11:51 we've learned some of the things 11:53 from that creation. 11:54 Well, I want to thank you for joining us 11:56 on this episode. 11:58 This is not the only one. 11:59 I look forward to seeing you again. 12:01 I hope that you'll join us in the future. |
Revised 2019-04-19