Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Pr. Bernie Anderson
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000022
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00:01 There's an issue that has quite a hold on our men...
00:03 Men of every station in life are caught up in its grip... 00:06 Today you'll meet a Pastor that had an addiction 00:09 to pornography... stay tuned... 00:12 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching 00:14 Urban Report... 00:35 Hello and welcome to Urban Report... 00:38 According to toptenreviews. com 28.8 million U.S. men 00:45 regularly visit pornography websites... 00:48 50 to 60 percent of Christian men 00:50 struggle with addiction to porn... 00:53 Today our guest is Pr. Bernie Anderson, Author, 00:57 Counselor, Pastor and Lecturer... 01:00 Welcome to Urban Report Pastor Bernie... 01:02 Hi there Yvonne, thanks for having me... 01:05 Oh, thank you so much for coming 01:07 we really appreciate your taking the time out to do so... 01:10 Absolutely... it's good to be with you... 01:12 You've written a book entitled 01:14 "Breaking the Silence: A Pastor Goes Public About His 01:18 Battle with Pornography" 01:20 would you share a bit with us about your journey 01:24 with the whole addiction... 01:26 Sure, 01:28 it's been quite a 01:30 quite a journey that's a good way to put it... 01:32 its... in fact, I remember coming up with the 01:35 phrase... that any journey worth taking 01:37 involves a climb... 01:39 and that's really what's this has been about... 01:42 it's been a climb out of a really deep, dark hole 01:45 that unfortunately many men find themselves in 01:48 and I was no exception as a Pastor... 01:50 I was exposed to pornography at the age of nine 01:53 and from that point forward it seemed that 01:57 any time... throughout my life as I developed 02:00 as I grew up as a young man... throughout my adolescent years 02:04 and into my early adult years, I came across... pornography... 02:07 and I wasn't necessarily looking for it 02:10 but there it was... and so from that experience 02:13 of just kind of growing up in a culture where 02:16 pornography was accessible... 02:19 I learned to depend on it 02:21 for... sort of an escape... a way to deal with stress 02:24 and anxiety... and just a way to kind of 02:28 get through life... life's difficult challenges 02:31 and so forth... so, that pattern continued 02:34 unfortunately... into my adult years 02:37 and as the pornographic industry 02:41 became more technologically advanced 02:44 as the internet emerged... I found that... 02:47 it was something that I could not stop doing... 02:50 it was something secret... it was something quiet... 02:53 something that... I just sort of did 02:55 when no one was looking and no one was around 02:58 and once the internet came online... 03:01 I believe it was around 1996, '97... 03:04 it was that much more powerful the delivery system was... 03:08 was even with dial-up internet if you remember those days... 03:13 Yeah... pornography was still 03:15 quite captivating online and I remember just... 03:18 out of curiosity... 03:20 I said, "You know, I'm going to check this out... 03:23 just to see what it's like... " 03:25 no one knew that I did this... 03:27 I was a full-time pastor serving in the Church 03:31 and this is something I just sort of stumbled across 03:36 one day out of curiosity... and from that day forward 03:40 it was just an on-going battle... 03:42 Wow, well let's go back for a second... 03:44 because I think that it's important for our viewers 03:48 to know how it starts... so you said that you were nine, 03:51 nine years old when you were first exposed to pornography 03:55 was that because it was in the home... 03:57 was it because you picked up 03:59 a magazine... how did that happen? 04:01 Good question... it was... really it was just a matter of 04:05 stumbling across it in the home of a relative 04:08 I was actually staying at a relative's home... 04:10 and I was one of those kids that just... sort of... 04:13 rambled through people's homes searching for treasures... 04:15 and there it was... in a closet... 04:17 there was a box there... I opened the box... 04:19 and someone had discarded the 04:22 pornographic magazines... 04:24 they just sort of crumpled it up and ripped it apart 04:26 and threw it in this box and there I was... 04:29 searching through this box and I was able to unfold 04:32 those pages... and sort of put them back together 04:35 and there it was... 04:37 Wow! you know what Pastor Bernie it's interesting because 04:41 sometimes when we let our children go 04:44 to other people's homes... we don't really know 04:46 what goes on there... and I think 04:48 it's not a matter of... you can't protect your kids 24/7 04:53 of course... but it's very important to kind of know 04:56 where your children are going... and to really kind of 04:59 keep a tight rein on them... especially now-a-days 05:02 when so many things can go on... 05:03 so, you were over at someone else's house 05:07 and you found this... 05:09 what effect did it have on you at that age? 05:12 Well, at that age I think I was just... 05:15 I wasn't sure what to think... I hadn't had a sex talk 05:20 with my parents... I didn't understand 05:21 what it was... I understood, maybe just as a young boy, that 05:27 "Man, this is quite interesting, yeah... " 05:29 Right... right... I really didn't understand 05:32 what was going on and I had a sense that 05:35 maybe it was "bad" you know... 05:37 Right, right, right... and so, I put it away 05:40 and just sort of made a mental note 05:42 and while at the same time 05:43 I knew it was bad... and I kind of sensed that 05:46 maybe I should come back and look at it again... you know 05:49 Yes... but that's a nine-year-old 05:51 little boy... trying to figure out 05:53 something very, very powerful, so... 05:55 And that seed was planted... that seed was planted 05:59 at that point... Yes... yes... 06:01 and so it was a little bit less difficult... 06:04 to venture into it again... at fifteen... 06:07 so what happened... at 15... how did you get re-exposed to it 06:11 Yeah... at 15... actually I think it was more like 13... 06:15 I remember being at my home... at my own home 06:18 and finding an unmarked VHS tape on top of the television 06:24 right next to the VCR... unmarked... and again... 06:27 I was the child of a single parent... and so... 06:33 no one was at home with me, I was a latchkey kid... 06:36 I get home... there is this VHS tape 06:38 I'm going to pop it in... I mean that's just what you do at 13... 06:42 and see what's on this tape... Right... right... 06:44 And sure enough... there was pornography... 06:46 on this tape... and I don't know who it belonged to 06:49 I don't know how it wound up in my house 06:51 but there it was... and I watched that tape... 06:55 and you know... 06:56 and it was another level of exposure 06:59 it was another delivery system for something 07:02 that I experienced back at 9... but here it was... 07:07 sort of... in living color 07:09 in a much more potent medium 07:11 so, it was powerful... 07:14 and from that point on... I... 07:16 especially as an adolescent 07:18 young boy... I think it began to 07:20 sort of... take root... so to speak... 07:23 Yes, now, at the same time... 07:26 were you watching programs 07:29 kind of... sexually explicit types of programs on television 07:33 were you listening to music that could draw you into that... 07:37 where were you... spiritually... as a teenager... where were you? 07:41 Yeah, you know, this was really 07:43 a new beginning 07:45 spiritually for me... I'd recently come into 07:49 the Seventh-day Adventist Church I'd been baptized 07:51 and all of this... was sort of happening at the same time, so 07:54 spiritually... I'm really conflicted 07:57 because I'd been exposed to this pornography... 08:00 I'm looking at this stuff... there are probably some movies 08:05 and some music that I've seen and watched 08:07 that weren't the best for me... but you know... 08:11 it wasn't all the time... it wasn't as intense 08:15 as perhaps it is today... because access wasn't as... 08:19 as easy back in those days... you know you had to have a VCR 08:22 you had to have cable... and we didn't always have 08:25 those things... so... it was hit or miss... 08:27 but there was certainly a spiritual battle going on 08:31 within me... because I knew that some of the 08:35 things I was seeing... whether it was pornography or not 08:38 and then some of the music that I was listening to... 08:40 all played a factor in... 08:44 in sort of... how I was developing as a 08:46 as a young man... and as a Christian... 08:48 Yes, isn't it interesting how Satan works... 08:53 he plants a seed... in your childhood... 08:57 and then waters it some... in your adolescence... 09:00 and this begins to draw you into this web... 09:04 he knows our buttons... and so he will push those buttons 09:08 and draw you into that web of sin 09:11 and before you know it, you're caught up... 09:15 so, how did you get "caught up" into porn? 09:18 Yeah, and I would just add to that... 09:20 if you add in the factor of 09:23 personal, familial family dynamics... 09:27 if you come from a broken home, 09:29 if you come from a home where there was abuse, 09:31 if you come from a home where there was constant arguing 09:34 or neglect or abandonment, those things 09:37 play into it as well... because I think the human heart 09:40 longs to look for something that gives it meaning 09:44 and we long to look for something 09:46 that will help us feel better about life and about ourselves 09:50 and so... as a young kid whose parents were recently divorced 09:53 I had very distant relationship with my father 09:56 I think that those things... also played into it... 10:00 the beauty of it was that I came into a Church that really 10:04 embraced me as a young man, it said, 10:06 "Hey, we love you... and we want to be in your life... " 10:10 and so, God... at the same time 10:12 the enemy was working... God was also working out 10:15 this plan... so that I would know Him... 10:19 so that I'd be in a Church where people cared and loved me 10:22 so... Yes, and I think 10:23 that's a very important point to make 10:26 that even though we know that the enemy 10:28 knows us and knows our buttons, 10:31 we also serve an omnipotent God, 10:36 who can deliver us from this... Yes... amen... 10:39 and who also knows more about us than the enemy of course... 10:43 Yes... absolutely... He knows what we need 10:45 and He knows our situation so that's an interesting point 10:49 and the other thing that you said... 10:50 I think we need to emphasize too 10:52 and that is the familial dynamics here 10:55 because... one of the things that is so plaguing us 11:00 as a Society... is fatherlessness... 11:03 Yes... It is that role model 11:05 of a strong father... 11:07 to kind of guide you through 11:09 this journey of life... and if you don't have that 11:12 then you kind of get caught up in... into... 11:15 you get detoured... Yes... yes... 11:16 and so, I think you hit a detour when you had 11:21 this experience... and so... again... 11:25 tell us how you got caught up now... what else happened to you 11:29 that just led you into full-fledged addiction? 11:32 Yeah, I think it was... again... just sort of a matter of 11:36 doing life and coping with life without a lot of guidance 11:40 in the areas of sex and sexuality... 11:42 and the Church... while it was there... 11:45 it was there... but it wasn't there to... 11:48 it didn't do a good job of informing and instructing and 11:51 giving guidance in this area so, as with any person 11:55 you just sort of... go through it 11:57 and make it up as you go along it's an education 12:01 that you... you just self-educate 12:03 and unfortunately... we tend to do that in a negative way 12:07 if we don't have proper guidance so... 12:10 sort of this slow drift down into this dark place 12:15 was a matter of getting caught up in the internet... 12:21 once that came around 12:22 videos got better... in terms of technology... 12:27 DVDs and so forth... so, access and the ability to 12:32 maintain anonymity... Hmmm... hmmm... 12:33 became very, very... very... it made pornography that much 12:38 more enticing... so... whereas... in the past... 12:41 I had to risk being seen 12:43 going into some seedy pornographic shop 12:47 once the internet came along, once technology got better, 12:51 I could look at pornography in the privacy of my own home 12:55 and no one was around... and so, that really... 12:57 in fact I would say... that many, many men... 13:00 who struggled prior to the internet coming online, 13:03 I'm sure that once the internet came along... 13:06 and they discovered it... there was a major spike 13:09 in people moving more into a deeper addiction of pornography 13:13 as opposed to before... where you really had to work 13:16 to see it... to get pornography you had to risk being seen 13:20 and one of the most powerful things about it is that 13:23 it can be anonymous, no one has to know about it 13:26 and you can just consume it without interruption 13:28 in the privacy of your own home, and that's the path that I took. 13:32 Yes... isn't it interesting again... secrecy and the whole 13:37 clandestine aspect of it... Yes... 13:40 that's also... something that the devil uses with affairs... 13:44 you know... it's just you and the other person 13:47 and the secrecy involved... makes it more exciting... 13:51 the enemy is really... he does what he does 13:56 well, he's had thousands of years to kind of perfect it 14:01 so, he does what he does well... 14:03 but again... we serve an omnipotent Savior 14:06 who can save us from the grips of the dark hole 14:11 and you mentioned that "dark hole" 14:13 so, where were you when you were at your 14:16 very bottom... what was rock bottom for you? 14:19 Yeah, well, you know... let me back up just a little bit 14:23 unfortunately, rock bottom wasn't at the place 14:26 when my wife discovered it... 14:28 this was a deep, dark secret of mine... 14:30 that I brought from 9 years old through my teenage years 14:34 into a marriage now... with the woman I love, 14:38 and my greatest fear was always that she would find out 14:43 because I did not want her to find out 14:45 Hmmm... hmmm... I wanted God just to fix me 14:48 and take care of me before she ever discovered it 14:50 and she would never have to know 14:51 she would never have to experience the pain... 14:53 because I knew that it would cause her great pain... 14:55 so, unfortunately, rock bottom wasn't when she did find out 14:59 because inevitably I think spouses do discover it... 15:03 and they do know... they come to find out... 15:05 and so there would be another year to two years 15:08 after she had discovered it... 15:09 and after I had said, "Yes, this is my problem" 15:13 that she would continue to discover me 15:15 and find that I had been acting out... 15:18 find that I had been looking at pornography 15:21 secretly when she wasn't around so really "rock bottom" was 15:26 when she was going to be gone for a couple of weeks 15:29 she always took the kids to Camp Meeting 15:32 in another Conference... every summer... 15:35 and I was left at home by myself... 15:37 to continue to do ministry, and work and so forth... 15:40 and being alone... for someone 15:44 who struggles with this 15:45 is a very, very difficult thing, and I found myself alone 15:48 and found myself unable to resist the temptation 15:52 and the urge... and I just went headlong into 15:54 a binge over the next... you know... week... 15:57 and it was at the end of that binge... 16:00 and at the end of a period where I had a sense... 16:04 and really I kind of knew that my wife 16:08 wasn't going to return... in fact, she had said 16:11 in her own heart that I can't go back to him... 16:15 I'm going to let... I'm not going to go back 16:18 and maybe that will just shake him out of this... insanity 16:21 that he's in... and that was rock bottom... 16:24 I remember throwing my hands up 16:27 and I just started pleading to God, 16:29 "Why can't I get through this... why is it such a struggle... 16:33 why can't you fix me, what's wrong... " 16:37 and that was it... I just felt lost... 16:40 I felt like there is nothing God could do for me anymore... 16:45 I felt like my wife was going to 16:48 leave me... or wasn't going to be around anymore... 16:50 now it was going to be difficult... 16:51 I had pretty much become... 16:53 I decided that I was going to 16:55 lose my ministry 16:56 and not be a pastor anymore 16:58 and I wasn't sure 17:00 what was going to happen to me 17:02 Hmmm... because I was just... 17:03 I was devastated... 17:05 I had no idea what was going to happen... 17:07 So, at that point... you were just like... 17:09 in the depths of despair... 17:10 Yes... I mean there was no place else 17:12 to go but up... at that point... 17:14 you were losing your wife, 17:15 and... you know what... I think we need to briefly 17:18 look at... how this affects the spouse... 17:22 as well... like what... 17:24 since you've been healed and delivered... 17:27 praise God from this... 17:28 how did your wife express her pain? 17:32 Well, it's a very difficult position for the spouse and 17:37 typically it's the woman in most cases... 17:39 to deal with it... because there's a deep sense 17:43 of a broken trust there... deeply hurt and wounded 17:46 because this person that they invested so much in 17:49 has lied to them... essentially Hmmm... 17:52 and so they're angry and yet at the same time 17:55 they want to show grace and be understanding 17:58 at some level... because they love their spouse 18:00 and in my case as a pastor... 18:02 my wife doesn't want to expose me to any sort of... you know... 18:06 she didn't want people to know about this... 18:07 so she wants to maintain the secret 18:08 Hmmm... yet at the same time... 18:10 she's dealing with her own anger 18:12 then she's wondering... 18:14 "Well what on earth is wrong with me, 18:16 why does he have to go look at that... when he has me, 18:19 what's wrong with me?" so there are multiple emotions 18:23 that a woman feels when they've gone through 18:27 this experience... and been betrayed... 18:29 and my wife... was the same... and she was angry... 18:32 she was hurt... she wondered what was wrong with her... 18:34 if you were to talk to her today she would tell you that 18:37 her self-esteem was just in the tank... 18:40 Yes... so, she just felt worthless 18:44 and she couldn't understand it, I mean... 18:47 there's total bewilderment for, I think, for females... 18:50 for women especially... they just cannot grasp... why? 18:55 Why does a man need to go there... and dwell there... 18:59 you know... Yes... yes... so how did you 19:02 get out... what happened 19:04 to bring you out from this... this place? 19:06 Yeah, you know, it's in the same way that we talked about 19:10 there's this "dark hole"... Yes... 19:12 there's light that must come in and really... 19:17 it was a matter of exposing, you know, 19:21 bringing the light into a very dark place... 19:23 and so... God whispered to me 19:26 what He had been trying to attempt 19:29 to communicate to me all along... and that is... 19:31 "Tell someone... open up to someone, confess... " 19:34 Hmmm... yes... yes... 19:36 "bring some light into your life" 19:37 and so I called up a friend... 19:39 someone that you and I both know... 19:42 and... Pastor Mike Tucker of "Faith For Today" 19:45 Oh yes... A very dear friend... 19:47 and I called him up and I said... 19:48 "Can we talk?" and he came over to my house 19:52 and in the midst... just right there 19:55 in my living room... I finally had enough courage 19:57 you know... after being at rock bottom... 19:59 and I said... "I will do whatever 20:01 but this is my struggle... 20:03 this is my problem... and I need help... 20:05 and I'm just broken and I have nowhere else to turn" 20:09 and so I turned to him... as a friend... 20:12 and he prayed with me... and said that, 20:15 you know, "Hey, I will be here for you... 20:17 whatever you need... " 20:18 and that began the journey 20:22 and that was the light that needed to shine 20:25 into that dark place... Yes... 20:27 that began a... you know... the 20:29 God's opportunity to create a breakthrough in my life 20:33 began at that moment... 20:34 Yes... so the first thing you did was... 20:36 you prayed and you were in your deepest darkest place 20:41 of despair... you prayed... and then... 20:44 you shared it with someone that you trusted... 20:47 Yes... because again that secrecy... 20:51 for your wife too... because you are a pastor... 20:54 that secrecy keeps you bound up, Hmmm... it does... 20:55 you had to tell... someone... 20:58 so that's the second step... what was the next thing you did? 21:01 And then the next step was to begin to walk 21:05 in that journey... to begin to pursue those things 21:09 that are pure and right and holy and good... 21:12 and that's so much of a tougher journey to take... 21:16 because... now you have to actively... 21:19 you know... begin to do things that you 21:22 weren't doing before... but that don't come as natural 21:25 Like what... such as what? 21:27 Such as, well, you know, 21:29 my life before... 21:30 as I was indulging in pornography was 21:32 all about the "secret" it had to be quiet... 21:34 and there was really a paranoia with my life 21:36 because I was constantly looking over my shoulder 21:39 wondering who knows my secret, you know, 21:41 Yes... yes... yes... 21:42 well, now I'm going to walk in light... 21:44 I want everyone to see into my life... 21:46 I want my internet activity to be seen... 21:49 so, whereas I would go into a room 21:51 and shut the door and be online... 21:54 well my computer is going to be 21:55 out in a very public place now... 21:57 Ah ha... and my conversations 21:59 are going to be very open and vulnerable 22:03 and I want more people to see... not just the external 22:08 but to see into my heart if that makes sense... 22:12 because no longer do you want to live in darkness 22:15 but the whole orientation of your life has to become 22:18 that you are... that you are authentic... 22:21 that you're transparent... that people can see the real you 22:25 not just the "you" that you want other people to see 22:28 and so... here's a phrase that I came up with 22:31 through all of this and that is... 22:32 "I would rather be admired than known... " 22:35 Oh... when you think about that 22:37 a lot of people live that way... 22:39 and so in the midst of this deep darkness... 22:42 that's where I began to live, is... 22:46 that I'm okay with people admiring me... 22:48 because they don't really know me... 22:50 Hmmm... and so with that... 22:52 there has to be a change in every man's heart 22:53 to where they decide that... 22:55 I need to be "One Person" that people see... all the time 23:00 and it needs to be the same person... 23:02 Yes... yes... not that separate person here 23:07 that the public sees... and then the private guy... 23:09 is somebody totally different... Exactly... 23:12 That's great... so... how do you maintain sobriety... 23:19 how do you keep it there? 23:20 Yeah, that's the real key and, you know, I think... 23:25 I think accountability is huge 23:28 and I think just the... again the whole orientation 23:32 and philosophy of your life, if you will, 23:34 has to be that... "I'm going to live in such a way 23:37 that people can see my whole life... " 23:41 and that's what I do... so, if I'm online... 23:44 let me speak in a more practical sense... 23:47 then... if I'm online... then someone always knows 23:50 that I'm online... my wife knows 23:52 when I'm on the computer, I have "Accountability Software" 23:56 on my computer that sends a log to specific people 24:00 so that they know where I've been on my computer... 24:04 Hmmm... hmmm... so, since my major area of 24:06 challenge was the internet, 24:09 then that's where I need to have the greatest light and exposure 24:13 and it may be that others struggle with magazines or DVDs 24:18 or other things... then they need to make sure 24:21 that there's "light" in that dark place 24:24 where they tend to run to and hide... 24:26 so for me... the internet has always been 24:28 a great struggle and a challenge so, I have a great deal of 24:32 accountability there... on the internet 24:35 very often, I limit myself... I discipline myself 24:39 not to just surf the internet... 24:41 I don't think there's really any need to just casually 24:44 browse the web... I think you have to go on 24:47 with a purpose... there's a reason why I'm 24:49 going online... and that's where I stick to... 24:53 and that doesn't change... so, it's a matter of 24:57 adding some significant intentional disciplines 25:00 to the life... 25:02 that I really think are powered 25:04 by the Holy Spirit... because the Holy Spirit 25:07 wants us to live a pure, holy, righteous life... 25:10 but God is also aware of the fact 25:13 that we live in a world 25:14 that is driven by all kinds of lusts and desires 25:19 and there's pornography and there are all sorts of things 25:21 So God comes along... a side of us 25:24 and empowers us to begin to do 25:26 some of these things that make a huge difference in our lives. 25:29 Pastor Bernie... thank you so much... 25:32 this is such great information because... 25:35 so many people are caught up in the grip of this addiction 25:39 thank you so much for sharing your story with us 25:43 and I encourage our viewers to check out your book 25:47 and to be accountable... thank you Pastor Bernie... 25:51 You're welcome... thank you so much Yvonne... 25:53 There's no problem too big or too small for our great God, 25:58 if lust and pornography are your struggles... 26:01 take it to Jesus... make a choice 26:04 to put no wicked thing before your eyes... 26:06 and find a trusted friend to whom you can be accountable 26:09 you can be delivered... you heard Pastor Bernie 26:13 talk about the steps in his deliverance... 26:16 first he prayed... and he asked God to deliver him 26:20 from the grips of this addiction 26:22 then he called a trusted friend 26:24 and that friend came over and prayed with him again... 26:27 so now the cloud of secrecy was removed... 26:29 and then... after he prayed 26:32 and he talked to that friend... then he made himself accountable 26:36 on a regular basis... that's an important point 26:40 because somebody has to know what you're doing... 26:43 so that... that kind of keeps you 26:45 from getting tempted and sucked back 26:47 into that pattern of behavior again... 26:49 God has deliverance for you, 26:52 God has a special destiny for you, 26:55 and He wants you to be secure in Him... 26:58 Well, that's the end of our Program for today... 27:02 Tune in next time... 27:03 it just wouldn't be the same without you... |
Revised 2015-07-06