Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Jason Bradley (Host), Ron and Claudia Woolsey
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000190A
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00:01 Have you ever wondered just what goes through a wife's mind
00:02 when her husband tells her that he was once gay? 00:05 Well, stay tuned to meet the husband and wife 00:08 that experienced God's healing power 00:10 my name is Yvonne Lewis and I'm Jason Bradley 00:13 and you're watching Urban Report. 00:40 Hello and welcome to Urban Report. 00:42 Our guests today are Ron and Claudia Woolsey. 00:45 Ron is Pastor of the 00:47 Marshall and Clinton Seventh-day Adventist Churches 00:50 and Claudia is his lovely wife of 23 years. 00:53 Welcome to Urban Report Pastor Ron and Claudia... yeah. 00:57 Ron: Thank you. 00:58 It's so good to have you here, you know, 01:02 Pastor Ron, we... you're no stranger... 01:04 we know you... 01:06 you're no stranger to Dare to Dream, 01:07 you are... you and your team from 'Coming Out' Ministries 01:11 is doing a whole Season's worth of programming 01:15 on Pure Choices and we so appreciate you and your team 01:20 and you approached me about something not too long ago 01:25 and I thought, "Man, what a great idea 01:27 to bring Claudia on and to talk about her perspective 01:32 on this journey... this journey that you've had" 01:35 so, some of our folks might not be familiar with you 01:40 so I'd like to start with you... 01:41 kind of get an overview of your journey 01:45 and then bring Sister Claudia in. 01:47 Okay, well... 01:49 I was raised as a Christian 01:51 and I was a very spiritual young person. 01:53 I went through Christian Schools as a Seventh-day Adventist, 01:57 I was a Student Missionary for a couple of years 02:01 after I was in the Military, I went back to college 02:05 and majored in Theology and Pre-Med, 02:08 my desire was to be a Medical Missionary 02:11 and during that time, I married and we had children 02:16 but I had been struggling with my identity since childhood 02:21 and not a living soul knew that I had this confusion 02:26 but I had been sexually molested 02:28 by a farm hand when I was four-years old 02:30 and it totally derailed me in my thinking 02:33 but I never told a living soul what happened, 02:36 so this thing just festered in my mind... all those years 02:39 until I was just out of control 02:44 and I thought that marriage would be the solution 02:48 to my issues but I warn young people today 02:53 that marriage is not the solution to any problem, 02:56 it can be the beginning of woes in fact... 02:59 if you're not married for the right reasons 03:01 to the right person and with God's blessing 03:04 and I soon realized that I had made a terrible mistake 03:07 to marry a young lady 03:10 who was planning on being a pastor's wife or missionary wife 03:13 for the rest of her life 03:14 and I knew that I was going to be a terrible disappointment 03:19 to her not long after we were married 03:22 but our marriage lasted for two-and-a-half years 03:26 during that time, we had two children 03:27 and then, I was just overwhelmed with my confusion, 03:32 my frustration, my tendencies and... 03:35 I felt that God was not answering my prayers 03:40 to take the "gay" away, I was one of those 03:44 who felt that God should be able to take it away. 03:46 And did she know... did your wife at the time... 03:49 did she have any idea that this was a struggle? 03:52 Not a clue, no one... 03:53 not a living person knew that I had this struggle. 03:56 Although I was repeatedly victimized... 03:59 molested during grade school and other times 04:02 but it was always so private and I would not tell anyone. 04:06 So, I ended up relying... I broke up our marriage 04:12 in great frustration, I gave up on God, 04:15 I gave up on family, I just... finally just accepted 04:20 my fate... you know, who wouldn't want... 04:23 I thought that I was just born to be... 04:25 and went into the gay life. 04:27 Did the media play any role 04:29 in your decision to walk away from the marriage 04:33 and to just immerse yourself into that lifestyle? 04:37 No, the media did not because 04:38 I was not very much involved in media, 04:41 I was a very spiritual person. 04:43 It was the... I think the... the molestation 04:47 that... in other words... 04:49 I was sexualized at a very young age 04:52 before I was equipped to even understand 04:56 or deal with sexuality 04:57 so by the time I was old enough to know about birds and bees, 05:01 I had ten years of... 05:02 I had started on the wrong direction. 05:03 And at that time it wasn't as "socially acceptable" either. 05:08 Oh, it wasn't socially acceptable at all. 05:10 I didn't know a living person who was gay. 05:12 I just felt... something was terribly wrong 05:14 and I didn't know how to deal with it and how to cope with it, 05:16 so, you know, I was struggling all alone 05:19 with no resources, no one to talk to, 05:22 the church wasn't talking about the issue, 05:24 I was just overwhelmed... 05:26 just totally overwhelmed until I just gave up. 05:29 Hmmm... hmmm... and so, 05:30 at what point did you meet Claudia? 05:32 Well, I met Claudia when she was in Grade School 05:36 and I was in High School, 05:39 so I wasn't interested in that kind of a relationship 05:43 because she was a friend of my sister's, 05:45 both of my sisters who brought their girlfriends around 05:49 to meet their brothers in high school, 05:51 but, I was in the 9th Grade... see... 05:53 and she was in the 8th Grade, 05:54 I mean, that's two different worlds. 05:55 Grade School and High School, so that's... 05:58 Well, see, that makes it a little... 06:00 that closes the gap a little bit though 06:02 you say, 9th Grade and 8th Grade 06:04 I was thinking like, maybe like, 06:06 maybe 10th and maybe 7th or something like that. 06:09 But it was still Grade School and High School, 06:12 see, a big difference. Yvonne: Right, right. 06:13 Jason: You felt like you were robbing the cradle? 06:16 Well, no, I wasn't interested, you know, 06:19 because I was in High School, see... 06:22 a Freshman in High School, yeah, I'd arrived, see... 06:25 So you met Claudia but you guys weren't talking 06:29 as boyfriend and girlfriend or anything like that, 06:33 you were doing your High School thing. 06:35 What did you think when you met Ron, Claudia? 06:37 Well, his friends and I... sorry, his sisters and I... 06:41 were friends... as he said 06:43 so I would go hang out at their house, 06:45 being with his sisters 06:47 and his sisters just happened to have 06:50 these really cute brothers, you know 06:51 and so, that's just how we started being friends, 06:55 and then we ended up going to the same Boarding Academy 06:58 and he was surprised when I showed up 07:01 because he went in the summer, ahead of time 07:03 and then, later I showed up 07:05 and he couldn't quite figure out why I was there, 07:08 and during those years at Academy together, 07:10 we were just good friends. 07:12 And what kind of family did you grow up in? 07:14 I had a wonderful family and I had parents who were so loving 07:21 and so supportive of everything I ever did, 07:24 they were well-grounded spiritually 07:28 we lived... they made the decision to move to the country 07:32 when I was just six-years old 07:33 and so we grew up on a dairy farm 07:35 and we were there together 07:37 doing all the things you do on a farm, 07:41 my parents were just always there for me 07:45 and I think that was the one thing 07:48 that has lasted throughout my life, 07:51 I could always depend on my parents 07:53 and it has given me great security 07:56 that's the word is... 07:57 when you have security in your childhood, 08:01 it just... it gives you something 08:03 that you can't explain, really. 08:05 Yvonne: That's true. 08:07 It's something that you can always count on 08:08 and because of that, I have an accurate picture of God as well. 08:11 Yvonne: Hmmm... 08:13 My parents never failed me, in my opinion, 08:15 they weren't perfect, that's not what I mean, 08:17 but they never turned away from me 08:20 no matter what I did, right or wrong 08:23 and so, that gave me a sense of who God was. 08:26 Hmmm... hmmm... where did you grow up? 08:28 In the Madison, Tennessee area. 08:30 Okay, all right, so you're a Tennessee girl? 08:33 Claudia: Yes, I am. 08:34 Jason: It's probably not that far from here. 08:36 Yvonne: Yes, true, true. Claudia: Probably not. 08:39 So, you grew up in a very stable environment 08:42 and you felt very secure in your upbringing, 08:46 Ron, were your parents... what were they like, again? 08:51 My parents were Christians and they were very 08:54 sacrificial Christians in putting all six of us children 08:59 through parochial schools, private schools 09:01 and church schools 09:03 and my father also was a dairy man... 09:06 a dairy farmer... 09:08 but my dad was a "child... raising children" 09:12 he was married when he was seventeen... 09:15 a father when he was eighteen 09:18 and he was totally unequipped to be a parent 09:22 so he had... was very lacking in that area 09:25 though, he... years later we realized 09:29 how much he really loved his family and his children, 09:32 he was a very devoted husband 09:35 and very much loved all of his children. 09:37 So, the two of you had... 09:41 you both came from intact families... 09:43 Both of you had father and mother 09:45 but Ron, you dealt with the molestation 09:48 from when you were four all throughout your 09:52 High School life too? 09:54 Not High School... it was in Grade School 09:57 but the other factor was my... my father did become 10:01 very emotionally abusive towards me because I... 10:05 in growing up, 10:07 having been traumatized at the age of 4... 10:09 I developed a bed-wetting problem 10:12 which they didn't understand, they thought I was being lazy, 10:16 and my dad not knowing... no one knew why 10:19 but I think it was a physical manifestation 10:23 of an emotional issue and so he became very abusive 10:27 towards me trying to shame me, this was his confession... 10:31 I mean, he was weeping when he broke down 10:35 and just begged me to forgive him 10:37 for trying to shame me into overcoming that 10:40 but that drove a wedge between us 10:42 and so I grew up feeling alienated, 10:44 unloved, unaccepted, 10:46 unapproved of... by my father 10:48 and that was another very strong factor 10:50 that pushed me towards the gender that was accepting 10:57 when I found a man who did appreciate 11:00 and did show affection and so forth... 11:03 I was just a... very vulnerable for that... 11:05 I was a very easy victim. 11:07 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 11:08 so at what point did you two connect romantically? 11:12 Thirty years later... 11:15 Yvonne: Wow! 11:19 While we were in Academy, 11:21 he had special friendships with several of my girlfriends 11:25 who were... you know... my... not a roommate 11:29 but they were just very close classmates, 11:32 and so he had friendships with them 11:35 and we just were good buddies, 11:38 we spent a lot of time eating at the same table in the cafeteria 11:42 you know and things like that 11:44 and we always enjoyed each other's 11:46 conversation and... and so forth... 11:49 but there was never any romantic issue at all... with us. 11:53 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 11:55 And so it was... 30 years later 11:58 that after I went through a very devastating divorce, 12:04 I was married for 19 years to someone else 12:06 and had one child at that point 12:09 and that marriage ended and I went through 12:14 the first real trauma in my life at that point. 12:16 I didn't think I'd make it, it was extremely painful 12:22 and yet, today, I can be friends with my ex-husband 12:27 and we worked to make a good family... stable... 12:32 as stable as we could at that point 12:34 for our son... and so I learned a lot through that experience. 12:39 Yvonne: What did you learn? 12:40 I learned that many things in life are simply choices. 12:45 Yvonne: Hmmm... 12:47 Just because something tragic happens to you, 12:51 doesn't mean there's a certain outcome 12:53 that has to happen 12:54 and so, as I worked my way through this... 12:57 and I grieved extremely, everyone who knew me just 13:01 couldn't believe how hard I was grieving over all of this 13:05 and I realized that part of it was... 13:07 I felt like I had failed 13:09 because I had the Christian background, 13:13 I had the understanding and so much information about 13:16 what a good marriage was supposed to be 13:18 but still it had failed... 13:19 but you know, when someone else decides 13:22 to walk away... you can't stop them 13:24 because they have their choices to make. 13:29 And so, the pain was extremely hard for me 13:34 and I did go through a very strong struggle at that point 13:39 with my relationship with God as well as with other people 13:44 and so forth and it caused me to doubt 13:46 and it was the first time I really had to look 13:48 at what I was all about. Yvonne: Hmmm... 13:51 And so, I did tremendous amount of reading during that time, 13:56 I did a lot of studying and I decided... after all of this... 14:00 that I was not going to spend the rest of my life 14:03 being miserable and unhappy, 14:05 I knew a lot of friends who have gone through divorces 14:08 and they just hated each other and so... 14:11 that feeling of rejection just continued on and on and on... 14:16 and they... they... it just 14:17 flavored everything in their lives 14:20 and I decided... I was not going to 14:22 spend the rest of my life that way. 14:24 Did you have a strong support system? 14:26 I did because I had my parents, 14:28 we were right there in that same area 14:30 and so I had them 14:32 and I wouldn't have been able to make it without them 14:35 and they were such a good example to me 14:39 and we... we just had great friends, 14:41 we've been in that area all my life 14:44 and we had... as a married couple been there 14:47 for 19 years, so I had a lot of support 14:50 and that's very important 14:51 but at the same time when you're going through this 14:53 as a Christian, it's amazing how people just 14:56 kind of... just kind of back... 14:59 and you know why? 15:00 They don't know what to say, 15:01 they don't want to stick their foot in their mouth, 15:04 they don't want to hurt you and they both loved... 15:06 our friends loved both of us as a couple, 15:10 they saw us as a couple and so it was very hard 15:14 for people to know what to do or say. 15:16 What would you say would be a good thing... 15:20 what would have helped, 15:23 would there have been anything that someone could have said 15:25 to you that would have helped? 15:27 What's helpful when someone... when a friend is going through 15:31 a divorce like that and you're friends with both parties, 15:34 what would be helpful to say 15:37 to someone who is going through that? 15:39 I think all you can say is, "We don't know what's going on, 15:45 we don't know why this has happened, 15:47 we just love both of you," 15:49 and then just put your arm around someone, hug them, 15:52 invite them to your house, 15:54 suddenly you don't go to any friends houses anymore 15:58 because they feel torn if I ask her but I don't ask him... 16:04 and we used to have "them" and so, 16:06 it's hard on your friendships and I would say, 16:10 you just need to love these people separately 16:13 and after a period of time that's what happened. 16:17 So, I would like to just insert right here... 16:20 she's talking about a support group... 16:22 when I was coming... 16:24 when I was coming back to the Lord 16:27 and leaving the Gay life, 16:28 that's when we became re-acquainted 16:32 and her divorce took place almost immediately after that. 16:36 I became a major part of her support group 16:38 for over a year, I would call her 16:42 and pray with her, 16:44 we would pray that her husband would come back, 16:46 I wrote her letters and so we developed that friendship 16:50 through being supportive of each other 16:54 and I had no inclination whatsoever 16:57 of pursuing a romantic relationship 17:01 I was simply trying to be a good Christian friend 17:05 in helping her through this process, 17:07 I had no idea what the Lord was going to do through that. 17:10 Now, Claudia, did you know at the time 17:13 that Ron was coming out of the Gay lifestyle? 17:15 Yes, I knew, all the time he was actually in the Gay life 17:20 that he was living that way, 17:23 his sister and I had remained friends 17:25 and she would see me at times and she'd say, 17:27 "Oh, please keep praying for Ron" 17:29 and so I knew, 17:31 but I didn't know a lot of details. 17:33 I didn't need to know details and so that had been something 17:38 and I had always had a special liking for Ron, 17:41 all the years that I'd known him 17:43 and I couldn't never figure out why 17:44 he couldn't pay any attention to me, 17:46 instead of all these other people... 17:47 Oh, I love that you got that little "dig" in there. 17:54 But as I went through this situation of my own, 18:00 he had come to visit with his brother-in-law at the time 18:04 and they were on a business trip and just came through 18:08 and he said, "Well, is there anyone I know 18:09 in the Nashville area?" 18:11 And he suggested that I was in the area and... 18:14 so they had come by... he told me then 18:17 that he was working his way back 18:19 into a relationship with the Lord, 18:21 he hadn't even been baptized... re-baptized at that point, 18:24 but he told me what was happening 18:27 and I was just thrilled out of my mind 18:30 and I... it was just so exciting 18:32 because I could see the joy in his face 18:35 and I knew what struggles he's been through 18:38 and so, it was just really an exciting time. 18:42 Nice, so at what point did you both decide 18:45 that... wait a minute... there's something brewing here? 18:47 Jason: That was about to be my question. 18:49 Yvonne: I'm sorry, I took your question. 18:50 Oh dear, well as he says, he had been writing just... 18:56 he sent out a Newsletter in the job he was doing 18:59 at the time... that would be... pastoring... he was doing 19:01 and he would just write a personal note at the bottom. 19:03 So, these weren't "love letters" or anything 19:06 because it wasn't at that point 19:08 and he sent a letter saying 19:11 that his church was going to be having a Camp Meeting 19:13 and he invited me and my son to come 19:15 and that's what happened, we went to this Camp Meeting. 19:20 However, you skipped a little detail... 19:23 because I was speaking at a Camp Meeting 19:26 in the Nashville area and she and her family came 19:30 and afterwards as we were about to leave 19:34 she was still grieving and I was trying to comfort her 19:37 about her husband and she finally said, 19:41 "Well, you know, he remarried about three months ago" 19:45 and I said, "Well, Claudia, 19:47 we can't keep praying for him to come back, 19:49 he's married" 19:51 and so, you know, we hugged and said goodbye 19:53 and I was traveling with two other pastors 19:56 and then all of a sudden, going down the freeway 20:01 I just blurted out... "She is available" 20:05 and these other pastors said, "What are you talking about?" 20:08 I said, "Claudia, she's available" 20:10 I had never even thought about that before 20:12 and I was having some issues with 20:14 a single lady in this church I was pastoring... 20:18 she was the only single woman, I was the only single man, 20:20 she was announcing she was going to be Mrs. Pastor, 20:24 so, I had been counseling with these other pastors 20:27 and... so they were kind of shocked 20:29 when I'm now talking about... "She's available," 20:32 they're thinking, "Who?" 20:33 And that's when it hit me 20:34 that we had developed this friendship 20:37 we had been friends now for over a year, 20:39 and maybe the Lord was working something here 20:44 so that's when I invited her to that other Camp Meeting. 20:48 Yvonne: Oh... 20:49 So I was already beginning to think 20:52 but she didn't know that at the time. 20:54 Right... right... so you went to the Camp Meeting, 20:57 and when you went, were you, Ron, thinking... 21:00 "Oh, okay, this could develop into something 21:04 but you just didn't know?" 21:06 I was being very, very cautious 21:07 because I've been in the Gay life for all those years 21:10 and I was thinking... "you know... 21:11 I'm probably not fit to be a husband... " 21:15 but I prayed about it, I asked the Lord, 21:18 "Would you ever trust me again with a family?" 21:22 And so, evidently He was answering my prayers. 21:26 Yes, yes, were you feeling that you had overcome 21:30 that whole part of your life 21:33 or were you still struggling with that aspect of it?" 21:36 I had totally turned my back on that life 21:38 the way I like to tell it is... using many of the 21:42 principles that we find in the Bible 21:45 and I studied my way out of the Gay life 21:47 simply with the Word of God. 21:48 I found everything that I needed, 21:50 I didn't need counseling or therapy or any of that, 21:54 I just submitted to the Word of God... 21:57 I mean God is... He is a loving heavenly Father, 22:00 He must know what He's talking about, 22:03 I'm the one who needs correction not Him 22:05 and I hung that... my homosexuality 22:10 mentally on the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden 22:13 and I just said, no matter how delectable 22:16 the fruit on that tree... it's off limits 22:20 it's not an option and I closed that door 22:23 and I started practicing starving that side of myself 22:27 and feeding the new... I wouldn't... 22:29 entertain thoughts in that direction, 22:32 I, you know, I literally, mentally just... 22:34 starved that... I wouldn't go there, 22:37 so I left myself wide open 22:39 for the Lord to lead me in a new direction 22:42 and I was not inclined to be married 22:45 but I had prayed and asked the Lord if He would trust me 22:48 with a family again... and so 22:50 He was leading me down that path. 22:52 Hmmm... 22:53 Now, did you all face any skepticism... like, you know, 22:56 people on the outside looking in and saying, 22:59 Oh well, he hasn't changed... 23:00 Ron: Oh yeah, everyone thought we both were crazy. 23:03 Yeah, people thought I had lost my mind 23:06 when they found out... when we got to the point of... 23:10 of being engaged and planning a wedding and so forth 23:14 and I understand that. 23:16 My own parents... they, of course, had questions 23:19 but as soon as I explained to them 23:22 what I felt and what I observed in Ron 23:25 and what I knew about him then... they were... 23:28 again... they had to be totally supportive 23:30 in every way that they could. 23:32 What had you observed? 23:33 What I had observed... was from 30 years before 23:37 and this is a point I want to make in this Program, 23:41 "People who are gay 23:47 can be kind, loving, gentle, 23:52 honest, talented, smart... " 23:55 and I knew all of these things about Ron, 24:01 I had observed him for four years 24:03 closely as we were in school together 24:05 and he was always... he was funny, 24:08 he was... he was always kind to other people, 24:11 he was just a good person, he had a good character 24:15 and the fact that he fell into this temptation 24:20 and gave up on God for a time... 24:23 didn't change who he was... basically... 24:25 and so, when I knew that he had found his answers 24:29 and was coming back... and I... like I said, 24:32 watched him during that year that he was pastoring 24:35 and heard... the letters he wrote... 24:37 testimonies of what God was doing in his life, 24:42 you know, I had no doubt he had found the answers 24:45 and as we talked more... I knew he had the answers 24:48 that had caused him to go that way in the first place, 24:51 he was still kind and gentle and funny 24:55 and all these other things, you see what I'm saying, 24:58 gay people are people 25:00 and they have a social and sexual dilemma going on 25:05 that confuses them and throws them into much doubt 25:10 and some are more traumatized than others 25:15 but Ron was still basically that person. 25:19 Yvonne: Hmmm... 25:20 I think it's a very important thing to understand 25:23 about people in this particular community. 25:26 I think that's a good point because, so often, 25:30 if you're not familiar with... if you don't have a gay friend 25:35 or somebody that... you know that's in that lifestyle, 25:38 it's just like any... any other culture 25:41 you know, until you know someone of a different culture, 25:44 you make assumptions... 25:45 and those assumptions are not necessarily true. 25:49 You're stereotyping, 25:51 you're making assumptions about people 25:53 that you don't really know but here you are saying that 25:57 you got to know this man... you knew that he was kind, 26:01 that he was funny, that he was spiritual, 26:03 that... that he had all of these qualities 26:06 and he had an issue that he... 26:10 that he... by the time... you guys connected like this 26:15 he had dealt with. 26:17 And he was getting... he was having victory in his life 26:20 and he was sharing that victory with others, 26:22 and he was just on fire about it 26:25 and I knew... if he could have him... 26:26 do all of this and had found those answers 26:29 that... it would be the same 26:31 with the other problems that would come up 26:33 and being married to him, I'll tell you... 26:36 people want to know what's it like 26:37 being married to an ex-Gay, 26:38 it's like being married to any other man... 26:41 Yvonne: How so? 26:43 It can be infuriating... 26:45 Ron: But that's not necessarily true. 26:49 there could be... 26:51 You know... I am married to Ron Woolsey, 26:57 a wonderful man, 26:59 and someone who loves the Lord with all his heart 27:02 and has dedicated himself to sharing that love with others 27:06 and to helping them to find victory in their lives 27:09 and so, I don't treat him any differently than 27:11 I would treat any other man. 27:13 You can't... that's a choice I had to make, 27:15 "This is a man... I'm going to be married to him, 27:18 I'm going to treat him just the same way 27:20 as I would treat any other man... " 27:21 and I gave that same advice to a young lady 27:24 who married someone down in Mexico 27:27 that someone that Ron worked with for several years 27:30 and he has come out of the Gay life 27:31 and then met this wonderful girl and they married 27:35 and that was my advice to her, 27:36 they had us come down to their wedding, 27:38 flew us down there and we were their special guests 27:41 and it was just so exciting and I told her the same thing, 27:45 I said, "You have just married 27:47 a wonderful man... treat him... that way... " 27:52 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 27:54 And, you know, marriage is always a risk 27:57 I don't care who it is, 27:59 you never know if the person you married 28:03 is going to stay the same person. 28:05 Yvonne: That's true... 28:06 We can all change and we all do... 28:07 many women unfortunately marry men and think, 28:10 "Well, I don't like this about him but I'll fix that" 28:13 women... tend to be fixers... 28:15 Jason: That's where they go wrong. 28:17 That's right... that's right... because 28:19 none of us has the right to do that 28:21 and so what I say is, "Just go out and marry anyone 28:24 that is an ex-Gay person... " no, not on your life... 28:27 because you need to know who that person is 28:31 there are good heterosexual men 28:34 and there are bad heterosexual men, 28:37 there are good characters in 28:39 people who have fallen into the Gay life 28:41 and there are people in the Gay life 28:43 who have terrible characters, I wouldn't put a 28:46 risk on them... until they have met the Lord 28:49 and made major changes in their lives 28:52 and proven that you can't just go into this 28:56 blind... you know... and be ridiculous about this, 28:59 but can a person who's been in that lifestyle change? 29:03 Absolutely... Yvonne: Hmmm... 29:05 Jason: Something that I think is important that... 29:07 you get with someone 29:09 and you like the person that they are... today and right now, 29:14 you don't like the person that they could be 29:17 because what if they never become that person? 29:19 That's right... well, I mean... 29:21 yeah, it doesn't matter whether it's 29:23 what relationship is, you've got those issues 29:26 and that's why, you know, as I went through one trauma 29:30 I just decided I was going to be happy, 29:32 I was going to be loving, 29:34 I was going to do my part 29:36 and that's what we all need to do anyway... 29:38 is... we need to do our part 29:40 to try to make any relationship the best that it can be. 29:43 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... 29:44 And yes there are always problems but 29:47 I have found consistency in Ron... 29:50 and that is one of the things that... 29:53 is the nail that holds us together as a family... 29:56 as a couple because he is very consistent 30:01 and I knew from the very beginning 30:03 when he started talking to me 30:06 and we started developing this relationship, 30:08 I knew how firm he was 30:13 and that he had prayed and asked the Lord 30:15 for second chances and double portions of His Holy Spirit 30:20 and they had done these things 30:22 and I knew that he was open to the possibility 30:25 of having another marriage and another relationship 30:28 and I think this is where a lot of people fall short, 30:31 there have been a number of people 30:33 who have come out of the gay life 30:34 but they think they have to spend the rest of their life 30:37 living in celibacy, that's not God's plan. 30:40 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 30:41 Well, celibacy meaning... 30:44 you're celibate if you're not married... but... 30:46 Claudia: Yes, if you're not married... 30:48 of course, but, they won't allow themselves 30:51 to see the possibility 30:52 of being in a heterosexual relationship after that. 30:58 Do you think the question is... 31:01 within many who are ex-Gays that... 31:05 "Well, this is just something that I'll never get into 31:10 a heterosexual relationship because this is who 31:13 I defined myself as... before" 31:15 what do you think about... 31:17 what are some of the thoughts that go through a person's mind 31:23 that were in that lifestyle that have come out 31:26 and now they don't feel like they're automatically "straight" 31:29 they're not heterosexual... 31:32 Claudia: No, it's not instant. Yvonne: Yeah. 31:33 You know I know that there are people 31:36 that come out of the Gay life, they accept the Lord 31:39 and they live a pure life sexually 31:43 but they mentally continue identifying 31:47 as same-sex attracted. Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... 31:49 and I think every time that you say it... it reinforces it, 31:54 when I came out of the Gay life, 31:57 I was very strongly same-sex attracted 32:00 but I didn't talk about it, I starved it, 32:03 I... you know... I learned to flip the switch 32:07 turn my head... change the channel... 32:08 change the subject, you know, 32:10 all of these things, I... 32:12 there are so many Biblical principles, 32:14 I had to bring every thought into captivity, 32:17 being transformed by the renewing of the mind 32:20 and that... many, many Biblical principles 32:23 and so, I don't think it's being dishonest 32:27 to not talk about same-sex attraction 32:30 I think it is a part of the process of starving it, 32:34 don't bring it up, don't talk about it, 32:37 it's not about being transparent, 32:39 it's... it's... you don't keep regurgitating it, 32:41 you don't keep bringing up something you're trying to bury 32:45 quit resurrecting the dead, right... 32:48 you bury it, you let it die 32:50 and the old man died and you bury it 32:53 and you leave it there, 32:54 if temptation comes, we have Biblical principles 32:58 on how to deal with the temptation, 33:00 don't identify with the temptation, 33:02 that's Satan's plan for your life... 33:04 it's not God's plan, so I don't allow myself 33:08 to be identified by Satan's plan for my life 33:12 but by God's plan for my life. 33:14 Hmmm... hmmm... so what would you say... 33:18 if you could give five steps basically 33:22 to overcoming the whole temptation, 33:25 what five steps would you give? 33:27 Well, in my book, I have about 14 different... 33:33 a list of things the Lord led me through, 33:36 first of all you need to realize 33:40 that God loves you just immensely, 33:43 and it doesn't matter whether you love Him back or not, 33:46 He still loves you, He loves the lost, 33:48 he died for enemies 33:51 and when you start realizing how much God loves you, 33:55 it gives you value, 33:57 it gives you worth, 33:59 it helps you want to face yourself honestly, 34:03 look at yourself... size yourself up based upon 34:08 His picture and His standards and if you 34:13 will make that commitment of putting God first in your life, 34:17 trusting that He is a loving heavenly Father 34:20 and everything He asks of you is out of love for you 34:25 and concern for your well-being 34:27 which means... like any child growing up 34:31 you have to deny your own inclinations 34:34 in order to please Daddy and to follow Daddy's counseling, 34:40 follow Daddy's guidance and so, 34:42 especially knowing that we have a fallen human nature, 34:46 we need to realize that 34:47 not everything that I struggle with 34:50 is for my good, I'm fallen, 34:51 so, I don't know how many steps... 34:54 we're just plowing through here... 34:55 Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 34:57 The thing is... it's just a matter of using logic, 34:59 God says, "Come now, let us reason together" 35:02 and you just go through this reason... putting Him first 35:05 and trusting that everything He says, 35:10 His counsel, His commandments, 35:12 His warnings, His reproofs are all out of love 35:15 and realizing His plan 35:17 is much greater than anything we could imagine, 35:20 He sees much farther down the road than we can see, 35:23 it's a matter of trusting and obeying 35:27 and walking with Him and the Bible says, 35:30 "We are to present our bodies... a living sacrifice. " 35:34 If it doesn't please the Lord, let it go, 35:37 no matter how strong the temptation or the urge 35:40 and He gives us the strength to do that, 35:42 He says, "My grace is sufficient... " 35:44 Yvonne: Yes... 35:46 His strength is sufficient for that. 35:47 That's good, that's good, so, Sister Claudia, when you... 35:52 once you made the decision to marry Ron, 35:57 what did people say to you, what did they say? 36:01 Well, they just... they... several just said, 36:05 "You're crazy... " 36:07 yeah... they said, "You can't do this!" 36:09 that was the main thing, they said, "You can't do this" 36:11 they knew I had a son at the time. 36:13 Ron: And wasn't that your maid of honor? 36:15 Yeah, and she was my dear friend 36:19 but she was so concerned, 36:20 she knew the trauma I had just been through 36:22 and had been there for me through all that 36:24 and she thought that I was just on the rebound 36:27 that I just didn't... I had no good judgment 36:31 at that point, and so, she says, 36:33 "Well, just... then at least put out fleece" 36:35 and I said, "But I don't need to" 36:38 and she said, "Well, would you do it for me?" 36:41 And I thought, "Well, I'm not sure that works that way, 36:44 I'm not sure that's the way God works it... " 36:47 but I thought, "Okay, I will... " 36:50 and so I did and my fleece was 36:54 that if God wanted me to marry Ron 36:57 and do it then because we decided, 37:00 "What was the point in waiting?" 37:02 We had known each other for 30 years... 37:05 How long after you started dating did you get married? 37:08 Ron: We had one date. 37:11 Jason: We are impressed. 37:13 You know, she told my sister, 37:16 "I don't know what he's up to but I wish he'd hurry up" 37:19 so... why wait? 37:21 Oh, well, his sister chaperoned us 37:26 on our... going back to our high school... 37:28 for a high school reunion and so, it was over that weekend 37:31 and driving from Tennessee to East Tennessee and back 37:35 and so forth... and like... we had all those years 37:39 of past life that we had known each other and so forth 37:43 and I dearly loved his family anyway, 37:46 so that wasn't an issue either but where was I? 37:50 Yvonne: Well, actually, you know what? 37:52 Let's talk a little bit about that weekend 37:55 because we still don't know what was the impetus to actually 37:59 switch from platonic to romantic 38:01 so what actually happened 38:03 that made that switch go off in your head? 38:06 It was the campfire at the Camp Meeting... 38:08 Yvonne: Oh... Claudia: That's what it was... 38:10 And I thought it was Gatlinburg... 38:11 crossing the street. 38:13 Well that too... that comes later, 38:14 but what happened when this Camp Meeting 38:17 that he asked my son and myself to come to, 38:19 he was playing his Accordion, 38:22 we were around the campfire lake that evening 38:25 and we were just singing all those songs 38:27 that we had grown up singing and so forth 38:28 and it was just a really good time, 38:30 it had been a very good spiritual weekend 38:33 and... so... we were just having fun 38:36 and he walked me back to the campsite where I was staying 38:40 and then he... he wanted to know if it would be possible 38:44 for us to go to Homecoming together, 38:47 Yvonne: Oh... 38:48 And that was all just... that was all 38:50 and then later he decided we could call it a date 38:53 and when we went on that homecoming weekend, 38:57 his sister kind of got lost somewhere along the way 39:02 Ron: She was a good chaperone. Yvonne: She made herself scarce. 39:05 She just disappeared and we were walking through the town 39:09 down the streets of Gatlinburg in Tennessee 39:12 and we went across the street and up to that point 39:15 there had been no communication other than verbal 39:19 and Ron reached out and took my hand 39:22 as we were crossing the street, 39:24 I thought, "Well, that was very gentlemanly of him" 39:27 and at that moment... I did not hear words 39:31 but it was the same as... 39:33 because the Lord just gave me a message 39:36 and he said, "I have seen your grief, 39:39 I've watched all of your tears flow... " 39:42 and He said, "I have a surprise for you... 39:45 and this is it. " 39:46 Yvonne: Oh... 39:47 So, I knew then... that something was going to happen 39:51 and when we got back to my home in the Nashville area, 39:54 and Ron was leaving to go back to Arkansas, 39:58 he invited me to come for Thanksgiving 40:01 and then we went over and had Thanksgiving 40:05 and were there for several days with him and the family 40:08 and his sister lived in the area and his parents as well 40:11 so we had a lot of time there together 40:14 and then... the next thing I knew, 40:18 he took me for a walk out in the woods and took me to a cave 40:21 and... and... and... he proposed... 40:25 Ron: That was a beautiful setting. 40:29 After one date? 40:30 Claudia: Hmmm, kind of sort of. 40:32 See, I heard in my mind... was the green light... 40:35 "hurry up... " saying, "hurry up" 40:36 and so when I proposed to her 40:39 she turned to me and started laughing 40:40 and I'm going... "What is this?" 40:43 And she said, "I always knew you were slow... 40:46 but I never thought it would take you 30 years 40:49 see, I've been in love with you since the Eighth Grade" 40:52 Yvonne: Awww... 40:53 So that was the answer I got. 40:55 And that's not to say... that was just... 40:58 that was puppy love, I just... 41:00 that was a crush I had since the Eighth Grade 41:02 but our lives had just been very separate all those years 41:06 and here's the thing... in my grief of my... 41:10 my situation... I said, "Lord, I don't know 41:14 if you ever want me to be married again or not... 41:15 and I don't care, one way or the other, 41:18 if you want me to marry someone, 41:20 you're going to have to find him and make it very obvious to me" 41:25 and I said, "But, you know, it would be really nice 41:28 if it could be someone I've known from the past" 41:30 Yvonne: Really? 41:31 And that was just one of my prayers to God 41:33 and so then when this started happening, I'm just... going, 41:36 "Wow! now... I had that special message in Gatlinburg" 41:39 and then this pact with this friend 41:42 who said, "Please put out a fleece for me" 41:45 this is after the proposal 41:47 and the wedding plans were already going 41:49 and I said, "Okay, I will... " 41:50 So my fleece was this. 41:52 If I married Ron, I would be leaving Tennessee 41:55 and moving to Arkansas with him 41:56 and I had a home to sell and so I said, 42:01 "Lord, if you want me to marry Ron and do it now, 42:04 then... and not a year from now or whatever, 42:06 then, I'm asking... " and this was a silent prayer, 42:09 "I'm asking that you have someone come 42:14 and offer to buy my house" that was it, 42:18 that was on Thursday, I went to church that weekend 42:23 and I worked in the Children's Department 42:26 and one of the teachers came up to me afterward 42:28 and she said, "Claudia, I hear that you're getting married... " 42:31 and I said, "Yes, I am... and it's true," 42:33 she was so excited and then she says, 42:35 "Well, then are you going to be moving away?" 42:38 and I said, "Yes" and I told her about that 42:40 and then she said, "Oh, well, I want to buy your house" 42:43 Yvonne and Jason: Wow! 42:46 And I said, "But you've never even been to my house... 42:48 you've never seen my house" she says... 42:49 and I said, "It's a log house... 42:51 it's one that we built from all these old materials and it's.. " 42:54 She said, "Oh! I have always wanted a log house" 42:57 and so, then, I realized it was time to go on up to church 43:02 and I said, "Well, talk to me later about it," 43:04 she says, "Well, you call me... " 43:06 she says, "How much do you want for it?" 43:07 And I said, "I don't know, I haven't even thought about it" 43:09 and she said, "Well, call me and tell me" 43:12 several days went by, 43:14 I just didn't think anything about it 43:16 you know, I'm still kind of not all there 43:19 and... and she called up... she says, 43:22 "Claudia, aren't you going to call and tell me 43:25 how much you want for the house?" 43:26 then I said, "Well, I didn't think you were really serious" 43:28 and she said, "But I am... " 43:30 and I thought, "Wow Lord, you need to just 43:34 really hit me in the head a few times 43:36 and I'll finally get that you're answering my prayer 43:39 that was about as obvious as you can get. " 43:41 Yvonne: Did she buy the house? 43:44 No... is that what I prayed for? 43:47 No... I said, "Lord, have someone come to me 43:51 and offer to buy my house" 43:52 no sign, no realtor, nothing, 43:54 and that's what happened. 43:56 So, then, I had that double assurance too 43:59 and I knew that whatever journey 44:01 we were going to be going on... 44:02 it was going to be okay. 44:04 Wow! did it every cross your mind 44:08 that Ron hadn't gotten the victory, 44:12 were you ever worried once you got married that 44:15 maybe... he hadn't... did you ever wonder? 44:20 I had to think about those things because I had a son 44:24 that was in the middle of all this 44:27 and I had to think about it 44:31 but I saw no indication 44:34 and then I thought something else... you know what? 44:36 "It doesn't matter because he could be this way 44:40 today and if he falls away from the Lord 44:43 and loses his relationship with the Lord, 44:45 anything can happen," 44:47 I'd had it, experienced it already, 44:50 we don't have any guarantees 44:53 but when I can see that this man kneels beside our bed 44:57 every night and prays faithfully, 44:59 he gets up and has his morning devotions, 45:01 he is consistent in how he treats me 45:04 and now... our children 45:05 because we've had two children together, 45:08 he's consistent about everything he does 45:11 but yes, I had to think about that, 45:14 I had to think about disease, he told me, 45:17 I didn't even ask him if he had been tested for 45:20 possibilities of having HIV or anything like that, 45:23 he told me, he had been tested, 45:26 and so that was a nice relief and a present 45:29 but that's no surety either, 45:31 he could just as well come down with cancer 45:33 or have a heart attack, you know what I mean? 45:35 And it just was something that I was very much at peace about. 45:42 One thing that Claudia said in the past was that 45:46 she was married and she was in a heterosexual marriage, 45:49 and that husband left her for another person... 45:52 what's the difference? 45:54 I mean... a husband can leave you for another person, 45:58 you're still left... 46:00 and so, that helped me realize 46:02 this was really a non-issue. Yvonne: Hmmm... 46:04 What mattered was the relationship 46:07 that I had with the Lord and so forth 46:10 and that was the stability we needed. 46:13 And it's just knowing that... that God can get you 46:16 through any of these things that come to us in life 46:19 and we don't always get the answers we want... 46:22 in this situation, I had a wonderful answer 46:25 and does it mean that everything has been great for us? 46:29 We've had to face some real challenges, 46:33 not necessarily with each other, 46:35 we're sealed together in that respect, 46:37 our challenges have come from outside 46:40 and especially as he's been in ministry and pastoring 46:44 and so forth, we... 46:45 that's a whole 'nother story and a whole 'nother book... 46:47 Jason: That's what I wanted to ask you about... 46:49 Claudia: That's a whole 'nother book. 46:51 Have you received opposition from the church 46:52 and any Leaders in the church because of your past? 46:56 When I first came and... back to the Lord and... 47:01 and then I entered into ministry, 47:02 there were those who were very skeptical, 47:04 I had an Elder... working with me 47:08 that would come to me repeatedly and say, 47:11 "Pastor Ron, I've never known anyone like you 47:14 that's ever lasted in the church" 47:15 and I finally wrote him a letter in fact he said, "two years... " 47:19 and I wrote him a letter and I said, you know, 47:22 "Dear John," I said, you know... 47:24 "you keep bringing this up 47:27 instead of standing on the sidelines 47:29 waiting for me to fulfill your doleful prediction of failure... 47:33 why didn't you lift me up in prayer? 47:36 You should be praying for me" 47:37 I said, "Besides it's been two years, 47:39 I'm going on three" and well now... it's 25... 47:44 you know... so... and I've had others... 47:48 even pastors... make statements, you know, that... 47:51 warning people to stay away from me because... 47:54 "that kind can never change... " 47:56 which gave me the title of my first book. 47:58 And the title of your first book is? 48:01 "That Kind Can Never Change" 48:02 and he wasn't trying to help me write a book, 48:04 he was denouncing me 48:05 but I have had that opposition 48:09 but, you know, these very same people, 48:12 years later had come to me 48:14 praising the Lord for my testimony 48:15 because even though they were life-long Christians, 48:19 they now saw God in a different light, 48:22 they saw the power of God that they hadn't understood before. 48:24 Yvonne: Hmmm... 48:26 The fact of the matter is most of us Christians... 48:29 don't really believe God can give us victory. 48:34 Yvonne and Jason: Hmmm... 48:36 Unpack that a little bit for us because that's really true. 48:40 Well, we're always making excuses 48:42 for each other and for ourselves, 48:45 "Well, I'm Italian, what do you expect me to do... 48:48 I'm supposed to have a temper... " 48:49 or I'm... I'm... you know... 48:51 sorry Italians... "I'm Irish... I'm red head" 48:55 and "I'm a... " whatever... 48:56 We make all these excuses and that is exactly 48:59 what they are... it's rationalization 49:01 and it's making excuses... 49:03 we're afraid to have victory, 49:05 that's something I've kind of concluded, 49:08 we are really afraid to have full victory in our lives 49:13 you mean, "Be like Christ, 49:17 huh, What does that mean?" 49:20 Somehow we think we're going to have to give 49:23 something up, 49:25 and we are going to have to give something up 49:28 but it's all... bad stuff that we're giving up... 49:31 but we... we... I don't know... 49:34 do we think that we're giving up our freedom? 49:36 But, no, we're not... because we choose 49:40 to be victorious or not, 49:44 God has promised that power to us, 49:47 Jesus died to give us that power and assurance 49:50 and yet we hold back 49:52 and we just hang on to these little things 49:54 saying, "Hmm... but I like doing this" or that... 49:58 it's just because we're afraid to live victoriously. 50:01 Yvonne: I think that's really the point. 50:03 And being comfortable in our sins... 50:05 Claudia: Yeah... 50:06 You don't want to... you don't want to step outside 50:08 that comfort zone, saying, "I've been doing this for years, 50:11 I don't want to give that up. " 50:13 That's right, we or you... and yet, we point the finger 50:15 at everybody else but I think, we're afraid. 50:20 Yvonne: Hmmm... 50:22 I think that... we also... I think we're afraid, 50:25 I think also we don't really accept that God can... can... 50:32 change... really change the heart 50:35 so that the old appetites are gone. 50:38 We tend to have a form of godliness 50:41 denying the power thereof. 50:43 Yvonne: Hmmm... hmmm... hmm... hmmm... 50:44 what about the children, how did the children... 50:49 how did your son deal with Pastor Ron's testimony, 50:53 like... knowing that he had come out of that lifestyle, 50:55 how did the children deal with it? 50:57 My son and Ron had had a very good relationship, 51:02 it was very interesting to watch. 51:04 Of course, he was going through the trauma of losing 51:07 a close, in-home relationship with his own father, 51:10 that was one of the choices I made 51:13 as a mother going through a divorce, 51:15 I determined that I was going to do everything 51:18 I possibly could do to foster a good relationship 51:21 between my son and his father 51:23 and I didn't want that to be part of the trauma 51:30 and yet, he and Ron, 51:33 my son and Ron related very well to each other 51:36 and yes, it was hard, it was a stepfather coming in 51:39 and there were things... we had to move away... 51:41 from where he was growing up and so forth... 51:45 but that could have happened no matter what... 51:48 so, that didn't traumatize my son 51:51 and they still have great respect for each other now, 51:57 as far as that goes, but after a while... 52:00 my son decided to go back and live with his father 52:03 so that he could go to school in the area, in Tennessee 52:06 and so forth, and it's kind of gone from there 52:10 but then we had our own two after a short time. 52:14 Yvonne: How did they deal with knowing about your past? 52:19 We never really talked about it 52:22 until I was asked to write my book 52:25 and then, I wrote the book and then, eventually 52:32 I was on Radio Talk Shows for three years 52:34 and then a very prominent television evangelist came to me 52:41 and wanted to know if I was ready for television, 52:43 well, that startled me because I... 52:46 up to that point I'd been doing my testimony behind a microphone 52:50 on a telephone and I didn't have my face 52:53 identified with the issue 52:56 and the book was written under a pen name. 52:58 but when I realized that I was going to be on television, 53:01 I thought, now is the time to talk to our children, 53:04 I think they're what? Five and six... 53:06 something like that... they were pretty young, 53:09 so, I'm the one that had the difficulty 53:13 you know, talking to the children about it 53:16 and I don't remember Zachary really reacting, 53:19 you know, they knew me as their daddy, 53:21 see the past didn't really matter 53:23 but my daughter... it was so funny... 53:25 she looked at me when I got all through... 53:27 and she just said, "So, Dad... you were married to a man?" 53:31 I said, "Well, kind of... sort of... yes honey" 53:36 "Well, who is he?" 53:37 And I said, "Well, it's no one you'd ever know, 53:40 no one you'd ever meet, 53:41 it's just so long ago in the past" 53:42 she said, "Oh, okay... " and that was it 53:44 because they knew me as their dad 53:47 and they have grown up now hearing me give my testimony 53:51 and this is just their reality, it doesn't seem to bother them, 53:55 I don't think it does, they... we have a great relationship. 53:58 This good relationship and if they had something 54:02 that they doubted along the way about... 54:05 they may have talked to someone else, 54:08 they may have worked it out on their own 54:10 but they have not made an issue of it 54:13 because they see their dad as the man that he is. 54:17 Yes, yes, what would you say to a woman... 54:22 the wife, right now, 54:23 whose husband has just come out to her 54:25 and she... it's a different situation 54:28 from yours but she... 54:31 her husband has just come out 54:33 and she's a Christian and he's a Christian 54:36 and he's struggling with this area, 54:39 what would you say to her, what should she do? 54:41 Pray... 54:47 be as kind and understanding as possible 54:50 and to understand that this is not a rejection of her. 54:55 Yvonne: Hmmm... 54:56 See, I had been rejected 55:01 and another person... female took my place 55:07 but then the issue of someone going into the gay lifestyle, 55:11 they're not rejecting you as a person or even your sex, 55:15 they have problems that are causing them to go 55:19 that other direction, 55:21 I mean, I can compete with another woman, 55:23 I can't compete with another man, or with a man... 55:26 they're not the same issue. Yvonne: Right, right. 55:29 And so that was the main thing... 55:31 to realize this is not necessarily about you, 55:34 you didn't do anything right or wrong necessarily, 55:36 you didn't create this 55:38 because this comes from way back... 55:43 the facts are that many of the people 55:46 in the gay lifestyle have gone there 55:49 because of abuse they've suffered 55:51 early in their childhood, 55:53 things they don't even remember necessarily 55:55 and it doesn't have to be sexual... it can be physical, 55:57 you know, not sexually but physical... 56:01 and... or... emotional... so trauma... 56:05 and I want to say something on behalf of my former husband. 56:09 He has since found out 56:11 that he is severely suffering under PTSD 56:17 Yvonne: Hmmm... 56:18 Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome from being in Vietnam 56:21 and he has just recently discovered this 56:25 and he has been through hours and hours of counseling 56:28 and has been told by those counselors 56:32 that with what he was dealing with in his life, 56:35 there's no way we had a chance 56:36 of being successful as a married couple 56:39 and so he's doing his part now to help others 56:42 that are dealing with the same problem 56:44 and it is a huge problem in our Country, 56:47 now PTSD can be a problem from some event in your childhood 56:53 or any time in your life, 56:54 it doesn't have to be because you went off to war. 56:55 Yvonne: Right, right... 56:57 Okay, and so that affects much of what we do as well. 57:01 Wow! well thank you so much... 57:03 the two of you... have really been a blessing 57:06 and brought some really interesting insights 57:09 into the whole situation, 57:11 we thank you so much and thank you Jay... 57:13 Jason: You're welcome... 57:14 Yvonne: Thank you for being with us 57:16 and thank you for being with us... 57:18 we want you to know that Brother Ron here has books, 57:22 if you go to comingoutministries. org 57:25 or dot com? 57:26 Ron: dot org Yvonne: dot org 57:28 comingoutministries. org 57:29 Thanks for joining us, join us next time 57:32 because it just wouldn't be the same... without you. |
Revised 2016-06-16